By statements/implied power level, is Emperor of Mankind (40k) a Skyfather level being?

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Cognitive

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Poll By statements/implied power level, is Emperor of Mankind (40k) a Skyfather level being? (30 votes)

Yes, and he's below prime Odin. 23%
Yes, and he's around prime Odin's level 20%
Yes, he's somewhere between Odin and OKT 7%
Yes, he's above OKT if we take all stuff into account 7%
No, he's above Skyfather level 13%
No, he's somewhere between high teambuster to low Skyfather 23%
Well, I'd say he's roughly equal to King Thor (the one that married Amora) 7%

Purge all xenos~~~

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baph

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#1  Edited By baph

Maybe.

In-universe, he's above beings like the Cacodominus, who completely controlled 1,300 planetary systems with TP.

There's also the fact that he's massively superior to Malcador, who could make Pre-Heresy Horus kneel like a little kid.

In his current state, he should be Skyfather level in terms of psychic abilities.

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yuuki157

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azraelotaku

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No, he isn't sky father level. The Warhammer fanbase was trying push this lie for many years.

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deactivated-64173259e84e1

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Army2442

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I would say that he is below skyfather level in terms of direct feats. His highest feat of destruction was planet level attacks during his fight with Horus which also occurred across time and various dimensions. He also scales above all over psykers which does grant some awesome feats and abilities.

You could argue, very shakily I might add, that factoring his feats in the warp that he might be multiversal by scaling to the chaos gods that he holds out of reality. I don't like doing so since it seems inconsistent, but technically the emperor is now a proper god in the warp.

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@army2442: His feat is above planet level since his destructive power is much higher than anyone power wise. However its been rumored he kicked the Void dragon to mars from earth. He has been confirmed to have captured a sun as well, but you'd need to ask @mordhauextreme1 about that. He is responsible for causing a massive warp storm as well which covered solar systems or a decent amount. He is also the sole reason why the galaxy hasnt fallen to the warp as its been stated several times that if he dies despite the warp being held back by minor stuff like black pylons if he dies they fall. I'd say hes prolly solar system level power or higher outside of the warp which makes him a skyfather, but stopping the warp from consuming it on a galactic level along with guiding all kinds of ships across a galaxy as well, suggests he is again skyfather level and or higher. Stat's wise he out did an ork that was blitzing his primarch sons, so he had to take care of the ork and he and the emperor fought so fast that the primarchs couldn't keep track, so its again made clear hes quite higher than all of them in stats and Magnus/Leman were already shattering a planet during the HH from their fight

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Army2442

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@masterofmatches: I hope they don't nerf the Emperor when they finally finish the Siege and do the full rewrite of the final battle aboard the vengeful spirit.

More on topic, I find scaling the emperor directly to be tricky. His feats put him solidly above the Primarchs, for example he one shot Russ, slayed the first Beast via existence erasure (a feat which so amazed Horus that it shook him to the core), and effortlessly forcing the whole Word bearers legion. Outside of that he has the feats of galaxy spanning TP by guiding the astronomicon and the warp storms. It is hard to translate that to direct combat though.

Overall I would still put him around the same tier as a base Thanos.

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Cheth

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@azraelotaku: Its not really a lie?

Don't worry, he's extremely salty because he recently lost a CaV against a warhammer character

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@fromfurtherdisc: Skyfather doesnt mean instant galaxy control. It ranges from solar system to galaxy level and GEoM has already proven to have the powers to flat out be on a galactic level.... If he was a true "skyfather" it wouldn't matter because again he has to fight people who can be just as strong as him and even above and beyond. We already have daemons do insane things along with primarchs, so idk why people think hes not...

Amped humans in Warhammer might comapre to the average Jedi and Starship Trooper but on steroids

..... i love how ure just comparing humanity when u got various other factions like orks who'd stomp....

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MordhauExtreme1

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No, he isn't sky father level. The Warhammer fanbase was trying push this lie for many years.

Early years emperor would have a stronger case than now..... so gonna cry???

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@army2442 said:

@masterofmatches: I hope they don't nerf the Emperor when they finally finish the Siege and do the full rewrite of the final battle aboard the vengeful spirit.

More on topic, I find scaling the emperor directly to be tricky. His feats put him solidly above the Primarchs, for example he one shot Russ, slayed the first Beast via existence erasure (a feat which so amazed Horus that it shook him to the core), and effortlessly forcing the whole Word bearers legion. Outside of that he has the feats of galaxy spanning TP by guiding the astronomicon and the warp storms. It is hard to translate that to direct combat though.

Overall I would still put him around the same tier as a base Thanos.

One shotting Russ though and putting him into a Coma for a month is quite impressive and as mentioned hes above his sons by quite a bit. Magnus the Red as posted before on this site manage to shake terra causing millions to die from his home world, so scaling for him I'd say is an actual argument considering just how strong he is, but you are right I hope to see what the Emperor can do in the Siege and we can finally get a more clear cut picture :)

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@cheth said:

@masterofmatches said:

@azraelotaku: Its not really a lie?

Don't worry, he's extremely salty because he recently lost a CaV against a warhammer character

I see :)

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Army2442

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@masterofmatches: I know that this is off topic but how would you scale Sanguineous?

It seems to me that he is also above the other Primarchs, at least at base anyway. He went full "dynasty warriors" during the Siege and went on to 1v1 both an amped Angron and Ka'banda one after the other. I think you could Also make an argument for Kruze being one of the strongest as well due to pre cog.

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azraelotaku

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Warhammer is just hyperbole garbage.

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@army2442 said:

@masterofmatches: I know that this is off topic but how would you scale Sanguineous?

It seems to me that he is also above the other Primarchs, at least at base anyway. He went full "dynasty warriors" during the Siege and went on to 1v1 both an amped Angron and Ka'banda one after the other. I think you could Also make an argument for Kruze being one of the strongest as well due to pre cog.

I'm not sure, because the stuff I'm quoting is older lore for the most part besides the recent GEoM feats. Most of my knowledge came from @kriegastartes when he posted his thread of GEoM vs Luo Zheng

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cav-the-god-emperor-of-mankind-kreigastartis-vs-lu-2259659/

Imo Sang is prolly top dog besides chaos amped Horus, even before the fights happened. I think Horus is top dog when amped, but from what Mordhau and Krieg have shared I'd prolly rank the primarchs like this and I wanna make it clear that I'm ranking them not on their personality, but their power, stats, and weaponry because in theory without personality aside technically I'd say Magnus has done the most impressive stuff out of them all, but his personality makes it to where he jobs an insane amount

Pre-Heresy

  1. Sang
  2. Magnus
  3. Lion/Corax
  4. Corax/Lion
  5. Horus
  6. Angron
  7. Konrad Curze
  8. Russ
  9. Vulkan
  10. Mortarion
  11. Jaghatai Khan - Khan already defeated Mort, but in a straight up fight Khan admitted that he'd lose to Mort so he relied on triggering Mort to win and Mordhau explained this. If you want the full fight you can ask him :)
  12. Roboute Guilliman
  13. Perturabo/Rogal Dorn
  14. Rogal Dorn/Perturabo
  15. Fulgrim
  16. Ferrus Manus
  17. Lorgar
  18. Alpharius Omegon

Post-Heresy, again same rules apply but everyone is at their best and isnt jobbing. Mordhau posted in a PM chat with me and another user showcasing though some newer feats a few weeks ago so this is from what I was told

  1. Horus - His power is entirely based on just how much the Chaos Gods want to amp him, but in theory would be considered the strongest of out of everyone
  2. Magnus the Red
  3. DP Angron/Sang
  4. Sang/DP Angron - Mord said Angron had just changed into his newest form and wasn't use to his body and Sang relied on a double stab to lure Angron in, in order to bait him and kill him by ripping his butcher nails out. Mord stated Sang relied on air hit and run and Angron adapted by forcing Sang to land on the ground to make it more even
  5. DP Lorgar - Wut mentioned he had a massive boost in power
  6. Lion/Corax
  7. Corax/Lion
  8. DP Mortarion
  9. Russ
  10. DP Fulgrim
  11. DP Perturabo
  12. Konrad Curze
  13. Vulkan
  14. Jaghatai Khan
  15. Roboute Guilliman - if he doesnt have the GEoM Sword, if he does hes below or equal to DP Mort since he lost to him according to Mordhau
  16. Perturabo/Rogal Dorn
  17. Rogal Dorn/Perturabo
  18. Ferrus Manus
  19. Alpharius Omegon

This is just my opinion though and only mine. It's not law or anything of the sort. You'd have to ask @mordhauextreme1@sirfizzwhizz@cergic@six-deuce@wut@ahzek_ahriman and a few others for their opinion instead to get a more accurate version of it :)

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cergic

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@azraelotaku:

Keep posting, it only further solidifies why you managed to lose a CaV which should've been unloseable. It's like watching someone fail to throw a tennis ball at a barn wall.

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KreigAstartis

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@cergic: ouch lol he isn't taking this well is he

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KreigAstartis

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@masterofmatches: It depends really. For Sanguineous i'd say second pre heresy? With Magnus being top tier but I'd understand if he was first as well in raw power. As or post heresy I'd still put Sangy over Angron likely over the fact that Sang has his well known precog ability which is why he one in the first place via the strategy that Mordhau explained. Granted Angron might have been physically moe powerful but he still lost. Also he did fight K'bunda and was soloing at the eternity gate so I would take that into consideration.

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KreigAstartis

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No, he isn't sky father level. The Warhammer fanbase was trying push this lie for many years.

we could debate that too, though im interest on how you would be able to defend that statement.

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KreigAstartis

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Warhammer is just hyperbole garbage.

who hurt you?

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sirfizzwhizz

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If we take Hyperbole into account. No. Even then no.

GEOM is a galaxy level telepathy. Thats it. He is also psy attacks star level to couple solar system level, but planet level in durability, and strength, and hypersonic combat speed though ftl reaction speed.

Not Skyfather, more Marvels Hell Lord or Spawn Hell King levels.

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MordhauExtreme1

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@masterofmatches: The list seems fairly reasonable to me, i'd switch a few but overall no major disagreements to what u posted

@masterofmatches: It depends really. For Sanguineous i'd say second pre heresy? With Magnus being top tier but I'd understand if he was first as well in raw power. As or post heresy I'd still put Sangy over Angron likely over the fact that Sang has his well known precog ability which is why he one in the first place via the strategy that Mordhau explained. Granted Angron might have been physically moe powerful but he still lost. Also he did fight K'bunda and was soloing at the eternity gate so I would take that into consideration.

To be fair the book made it clear Angron wasnt use to his daemon prince form and in a drawn out fight much like Russ vs Angron, Angron could very well win the duel but loses in actual strat abilities since basically almost everyone can do circles around him. I'd say Angron has strength, durability, and stam/endurance while Sang has skill, speed, and gear. Horus thought Angron could defeat Sang and thought so heavily since he put an effort into saving Angron for such an event. However I think Angron jobbed because Angron doesn't usually act the way he did hes just a very angry and bitter person less likely to brag, more likely to insult and when he became a daemon prince his personality should of been more leaning towards Skarbrand than Ka'Bunda instead

However I do agree with MoM in the fact it could go in fact either way and its entirely possible Sang one shots with his spear if he activates his ability

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KreigAstartis

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@masterofmatches: The list seems fairly reasonable to me, i'd switch a few but overall no major disagreements to what u posted

@kreigastartis said:

@masterofmatches: It depends really. For Sanguineous i'd say second pre heresy? With Magnus being top tier but I'd understand if he was first as well in raw power. As or post heresy I'd still put Sangy over Angron likely over the fact that Sang has his well known precog ability which is why he one in the first place via the strategy that Mordhau explained. Granted Angron might have been physically moe powerful but he still lost. Also he did fight K'bunda and was soloing at the eternity gate so I would take that into consideration.

To be fair the book made it clear Angron wasnt use to his daemon prince form and in a drawn out fight much like Russ vs Angron, Angron could very well win the duel but loses in actual strat abilities since basically almost everyone can do circles around him. I'd say Angron has strength, durability, and stam/endurance while Sang has skill, speed, and gear. Horus thought Angron could defeat Sang and thought so heavily since he put an effort into saving Angron for such an event. However I think Angron jobbed because Angron doesn't usually act the way he did hes just a very angry and bitter person less likely to brag, more likely to insult and when he became a daemon prince his personality should of been more leaning towards Skarbrand than Ka'Bunda instead

However I do agree with MoM in the fact it could go in fact either way and its entirely possible Sang one shots with his spear if he activates his ability

agreed

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Army2442

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@masterofmatches: that's a pretty solid list but I thtyou put Corax too high pre heresy. He has a direct statement which he doubts he can beat Angron one on one. I think a direct one on one in "neutral" situations really wouldn't suit him and I would probably put him in the bottom half around where Rogal and Pert are. He could definitely take out some of the strongest brothers if he fought according to his strengths and ambushed them.

In my opinion pre heresy would be something like this:

1. Sang.

2. Magnus (warp is op).

3. Horus/Lion (Lion is implied to be the strongest duelist and his some sort of supernatural ability in swordsmanship).

4. Lion/Horus.

5. Kruze/Russ.

6.Russ/Kruze.

7. Angron.

8. Vulkan.

9. Mortarion.

10. Khan (He has superior speed to his brothers but lacks the ability to put them down effectively).

11. Corax.

12. Dorn/Pert

13. Pert/Dorn

14. Guilliman.

15. Fulgrim.

16. Ferrus.

17. Lorgar.

18. Alph/Omegon.

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@sirfizzwhizz said:

If we take Hyperbole into account. No. Even then no.

GEOM is a galaxy level telepathy. Thats it. He is also psy attacks star level to couple solar system level, but planet level in durability, and strength, and hypersonic combat speed though ftl reaction speed.

Not Skyfather, more Marvels Hell Lord or Spawn Hell King levels.

If we take Hyperbole into account he'd be above planetary level at least in durability and strength and his speed would be insane since due to the fact him and a great big ol ork were fighting so fast his primarchs couldn't even follow or track him. His speed is also greatly increased via Teleportation as well since he used in a fight against Drach'nyen or he ran so fast he flickered in and out of reality, but overall Im waiting to see how his actual fight goes down with Horus this year or next

@mordhauextreme1 said:

@masterofmatches: The list seems fairly reasonable to me, i'd switch a few but overall no major disagreements to what u posted

@kreigastartis said:

@masterofmatches: It depends really. For Sanguineous i'd say second pre heresy? With Magnus being top tier but I'd understand if he was first as well in raw power. As or post heresy I'd still put Sangy over Angron likely over the fact that Sang has his well known precog ability which is why he one in the first place via the strategy that Mordhau explained. Granted Angron might have been physically moe powerful but he still lost. Also he did fight K'bunda and was soloing at the eternity gate so I would take that into consideration.

To be fair the book made it clear Angron wasnt use to his daemon prince form and in a drawn out fight much like Russ vs Angron, Angron could very well win the duel but loses in actual strat abilities since basically almost everyone can do circles around him. I'd say Angron has strength, durability, and stam/endurance while Sang has skill, speed, and gear. Horus thought Angron could defeat Sang and thought so heavily since he put an effort into saving Angron for such an event. However I think Angron jobbed because Angron doesn't usually act the way he did hes just a very angry and bitter person less likely to brag, more likely to insult and when he became a daemon prince his personality should of been more leaning towards Skarbrand than Ka'Bunda instead

However I do agree with MoM in the fact it could go in fact either way and its entirely possible Sang one shots with his spear if he activates his ability

agreed

Yeah his list is good, but Corax needs to be above DP Logar since he already defeated him in combat. What are your thoughts on DP Corax ( ik hes not but come on the guy has a whole new set of abilities ) If you didn't read his fight, here's his fight though

Corax evaded the crozius without even once parrying. He weaved aside, threw himself out of reach, or fired his flight pack with enough force to boost him up and over Lorgar’s heavy swings. By contrast, sweat stung Lorgar’s eyes as he desperately blocked each of his brother’s attacks. Illuminarum’s great hammerhead rang like a church bell as it battered aside the Raven Lord’s claws.

‘What are you doing?’ Corax cried into his brother’s face as their weapons locked. ‘What madness has taken you all?’

Lorgar disengaged, hurling Corax backward with enough strength to leave his brother unbalanced. The Raven Lord compensated instantly, his flight pack breathing fire and propelling him back at his brother. Bladed wings flashed out to the side, but Lorgar was ready for them. He ignored their scraping, cutting wounds as they knifed through his armour, and focused on hammering Corax’s claws aside. In the seconds’ safety he bought for himself, Lorgar at last landed a true blow. Corax was sent sprawling again as the crozius pounded into his breastplate. The power field around the maul’s head struck with enough force to send a shockwave blasting out from the warring brothers, throwing all nearby Astartes to the ground.

In less time than it took to breathe in, Corax was back on his feet, thrusters firing, spearing at Lorgar once more.

‘Answer me, traitor,’ the Raven Lord grunted. His dark eyes were narrowed at the sickening light that haloed Lorgar. ‘You… are a poor reflection of our father… with that psychic gold.’

Lorgar felt himself slipping back in the mud, his boots grinding across the earth as his brother’s strength leaned heavier against him. He couldn’t break the weapon lock this time. Both Corax’s claws clutched at Illuminarum’s haft, burning the handle and the Word Bearer’s hands.

‘I am bringing the truth to humanity,’ Lorgar breathed.

‘You are destroying the Imperium! You are betraying your own blood!’ The wildness in the Raven Lord’s black eyes was something Lorgar had never even imagined before. Corax had always seemed so taciturn, so devoid of passion. That this warrior lay beneath the albino facade was a horrendous revelation.

The claw tips, spitting with crackling power fields, were a finger’s length from Lorgar’s face now. ‘I will kill you, Lorgar.’

‘I know.’ He spoke through gritted teeth, feeling strength bleed from his bones. ‘But I have seen what will be. Our father, a bloodless corpse enthroned upon gold, and screaming into the void forever.’

‘Lies.’ The black eyes narrowed, and the Raven Lord’s pale muscles bunched, locking harder. ‘You are reducing a kingdom to chaos. Overthrowing the perfect order.’

Lorgar’s grey eyes danced with light despite the strain on his body. ‘The opposite of chaos is not order, brother. It is stasis. Lifeless, unchanging… stasis.’

With a last grunt, Lorgar’s strength gave. Quivering hands could no longer keep his brother’s weapons back.

'Here it is,’ Corax promised in a hiss, his saliva flecking Lorgar’s eyes and cheeks. ‘Here is the death you so richly deserve.’

The claws reached his brother’s face. Slowly, the metal burning-hot, they sliced over Lorgar’s golden skin. Inch by inch, blackening the golden flesh, cutting into the meat of his cheeks. Even should he escape, he would bear these scars until the day he died. He knew this, and did not care.

The psychic fire wreathing them both flared in response to Lorgar’s pain. Corax closed his eyes to spare his sight, and instinct cost him his quick victory. Lorgar threw the Raven Lord back again. Illuminarum rose, ready to strike, before a burst of smoky fire launched the Raven Lord up from the soil to come down on Lorgar from above. The Word Bearer smashed the first claw aside, striking the fist with enough force to shatter the gauntlet completely, but even as scythe-long claw blades span off into the surrounding melee, the second claw struck home.

Metre-long talons sank through Lorgar’s stomach, the tips glinting to the side of his spine as they thrust from his back. Such a blow meant little to a primarch – only when Corax heaved upwards did Lorgar stagger. The claws bit and cut, sawing through the Word Bearer’s body.

Illuminarum slipped from the impaled primarch’s fists. Those same hands wrapped around Corax’s throat even as the Raven Lord was carving his brother in half.

‘For the Emperor,’ Corax breathed, untroubled by his weaker brother’s grip. Lorgar crashed his forehead against Corax’s face, shattering his brother’s nose, but still he couldn’t free himself. The Raven Lord gave no ground, even as a second, third and fourth head butt decimated his delicate features.

‘But he lied to us,’ Lorgar spoke through lips that produced more blood than language. ‘Father lied.’

The claws jerked, snagged against Lorgar’s enhanced bones. Corax tore them free, inflicting more damage than the first impaling had done. Blood hissed and popped as it evaporated on the force-fielded blades.

‘Father lied,’ Lorgar said again. He was on his knees, hands clutched over the ruination of his stomach. Corax’s black eyes gave nothing away. He stepped closer, his one functioning claw raised to execute his brother.

‘Do it,’ Lorgar snarled. The psychic wind, the misty fire – all were gone now. He was as he’d always been: Lorgar, the Seventeenth Son, the image of his father, the one soul in twenty who’d never wished to be a soldier. And here he would die, at the heart of a battlefield.

The foul irony of the moment settled on his shoulders, feeling grotesquely apt. He couldn’t move his legs. His body was a temple to nothing but pain. He could barely even see his executioner, for his psychic efforts had left him quivering with both weakness and a vision-blurring ache in his mind. A faint outline met his gaze, the blurred image of scythe-blades raised high.

‘Do it!’ Lorgar screamed at his brother.

The claw fell, and struck opposing metal.

Corax looked to meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as his own. His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets of blades scraping as they ground against each other. One claw seeking to fall and kill, the other unyielding in its rising defence.

Where the Raven Guard primarch’s features were fierce with effort, the other face wore a grin. It was a smile both taut and mirthless – a dead man’s smile, once his lips surrendered to rigor mortis.

‘Corax,’ said the other primarch.

‘Curze,’ Corax said the name as the curse it was.

‘Look into my eyes,’ said the progenitor of the Night Lords Legion, ‘and see your death.’

-Warhammer 40k: The First Heretic

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KreigAstartis

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@mordhauextreme1: Holy smokes I didn't even know Corax had a warp version of himself!!

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Army2442

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It is kind of crazy to think Corax is canonically still alive and active, I hope they do something with him soon. I feel like since he got sidelined so quickly in the heresy it would be nice to see him kick some more ass in M42.

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@army2442: That's a good list, but Angron already defeated Russ though? Corvax already took a stalemate against the Lion I think, but I don't know for sure :( Regardless I think we're about agreement on where we put our primarchs at. Great minds think alike! :)

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Six-Deuce

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#32  Edited By Six-Deuce

I think the terminology used to scale various characters in terms of their power output etc is a bit inaccurate in cases where there is nuance. WH is often such a case due to the way the warp has been portrayed. I don’t think “sky father” if used in terms…”can X blast a solar system” applies to GEoM. He can potentially affect similar sized real estate with prep but not casually. That said, he has the ability to approximate things you would see from a fictional pantheon head.

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cergic

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#33  Edited By cergic
@masterofmatches said:

@army2442 said:

@masterofmatches: I know that this is off topic but how would you scale Sanguineous?

It seems to me that he is also above the other Primarchs, at least at base anyway. He went full "dynasty warriors" during the Siege and went on to 1v1 both an amped Angron and Ka'banda one after the other. I think you could Also make an argument for Kruze being one of the strongest as well due to pre cog.

I'm not sure, because the stuff I'm quoting is older lore for the most part besides the recent GEoM feats. Most of my knowledge came from @kriegastartes when he posted his thread of GEoM vs Luo Zheng

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/cav-the-god-emperor-of-mankind-kreigastartis-vs-lu-2259659/

Imo Sang is prolly top dog besides chaos amped Horus, even before the fights happened. I think Horus is top dog when amped, but from what Mordhau and Krieg have shared I'd prolly rank the primarchs like this and I wanna make it clear that I'm ranking them not on their personality, but their power, stats, and weaponry because in theory without personality aside technically I'd say Magnus has done the most impressive stuff out of them all, but his personality makes it to where he jobs an insane amount

Pre-Heresy

  1. Sang
  2. Magnus
  3. Lion/Corax
  4. Corax/Lion
  5. Horus
  6. Angron
  7. Konrad Curze
  8. Russ
  9. Vulkan
  10. Mortarion
  11. Jaghatai Khan - Khan already defeated Mort, but in a straight up fight Khan admitted that he'd lose to Mort so he relied on triggering Mort to win and Mordhau explained this. If you want the full fight you can ask him :)
  12. Roboute Guilliman
  13. Perturabo/Rogal Dorn
  14. Rogal Dorn/Perturabo
  15. Fulgrim
  16. Ferrus Manus
  17. Lorgar
  18. Alpharius Omegon

Post-Heresy, again same rules apply but everyone is at their best and isnt jobbing. Mordhau posted in a PM chat with me and another user showcasing though some newer feats a few weeks ago so this is from what I was told

  1. Horus - His power is entirely based on just how much the Chaos Gods want to amp him, but in theory would be considered the strongest of out of everyone
  2. Magnus the Red
  3. DP Angron/Sang
  4. Sang/DP Angron - Mord said Angron had just changed into his newest form and wasn't use to his body and Sang relied on a double stab to lure Angron in, in order to bait him and kill him by ripping his butcher nails out. Mord stated Sang relied on air hit and run and Angron adapted by forcing Sang to land on the ground to make it more even
  5. DP Lorgar - Wut mentioned he had a massive boost in power
  6. Lion/Corax
  7. Corax/Lion
  8. DP Mortarion
  9. Russ
  10. DP Fulgrim
  11. DP Perturabo
  12. Konrad Curze
  13. Vulkan
  14. Jaghatai Khan
  15. Roboute Guilliman - if he doesnt have the GEoM Sword, if he does hes below or equal to DP Mort since he lost to him according to Mordhau
  16. Perturabo/Rogal Dorn
  17. Rogal Dorn/Perturabo
  18. Ferrus Manus
  19. Alpharius Omegon

This is just my opinion though and only mine. It's not law or anything of the sort. You'd have to ask @mordhauextreme1@sirfizzwhizz@cergic@six-deuce@wut@ahzek_ahriman and a few others for their opinion instead to get a more accurate version of it :)

Incoming hot takes from me :p

I actually like this list on average.

That said, i'm fairly heretical when it comes to my primarch power scaling though.

I will assume this is pre-Horus falling to chaos.

1-5 Sang, Lion, Magnus, Russ and Vulkan are my top 5. It's always rock paper scissors when it comes to primarchs. Sang's top 1 though.

6-9 to me is Corax, Khan, Kurze (merely because he's batshit insane, not skilled, clever, tactful or nothing, just insane and thus difficult), Angron

10-11 Guilliman and Horus

12-14 i place Mortarion, Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus

15-18 i place Alpharius/Omegon, Perturabo, Rogal Dorn and Lorgar

It's so freakishly heavily insinuated that Horus was a gloryhogging PR master even when he was a solid guy, so he's not nearly as good as he's described to be, to me, compared to his bro's.

In fact, i think he's unworthy of praise because GW just have his brothers jump on his lap for being such a charismatic bro. His best feat i can recall is in the Ullanor campaign where he gutted a huge orc.

The top 5 is always described as incredibly capable, no real weaknesses, good showings and so on. Their weaker showings are with context or stupidity.

6-9 are placed there because they are good enough to put up a solid fight convincingly against any of the others, but is less likely to always win if they fight to the fullest and literal capabilities. Angron is overrated and his brothers are too morally good to shit on him in fights when they could. So his status as a top dog fighter pre-chaos is unjustified imo against actual, capable fighters willing to kill his worthless rageface.

10-11 Guilliman is there because he's a very formidable fighter, he's just not _only_ a fighter so he's described in more ways. He's a black belt like his brothers, but he trains 6 days a week, not 7, because he runs his own company and he plants trees on sundays as well. His intelligence and intellect is again and again allowing him to become more weaponized by the literal second, so he's more than capable of figuratively speaking rolling a critical against anyone. He's always sniffing on a place at the pedistal imo. He's better described and with more convincing feats as a capable guy facing stupid difficult odds or unfair context. Horus is .. bleh.

12-14 Just overrated but still capable. I don't buy into any of Mortarions hype bar being very tanky, but he's got a shit weapon, a bad tactic and just no convincing methods in a primarch fight. They're lacking skills.

15-18 blatantly weaker or with so many flaws overall that they're easily screwed over.

Let the hate flow unto me for making this list :p

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cergic

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As for GEOM being skyfather or not ... in some senses and methods, for sure. In others nay. I shall present some nice reasoning behind it.

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Army2442

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@cergic: I am surprised that you rated Vulkan so high, most people seem to lump him into the middle of the pack. I think he is underrated because he was sidelined for most of the heresy and got killed alot by Kruze and later Magnus. He is the physical strongest of them all without amps.

I am also surprised that you rated Horus so low, he was hyped as one of the greatest during the crusade after all.

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cergic

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@army2442 said:

@cergic: I am surprised that you rated Vulkan so high, most people seem to lump him into the middle of the pack. I think he is underrated because he was sidelined for most of the heresy and got killed alot by Kruze and later Magnus. He is the physical strongest of them all without amps.

I am also surprised that you rated Horus so low, he was hyped as one of the greatest during the crusade after all.

I think he's put lower on the powerscale because people don't really put thought to him. I agree. I argue that he's frankly one of THE most peaked primarchs there are since he's still primarch tier fast, godlike skilled with the best gear available, literally, custom made for him with a strenght unmatched, and his immortality is just so hax. It's no wonder GW have to do him dirty every time he's taking some sort of loss or have poor showing in order for him to be put down a few pegs, because otherwise he'd be an overpowered mary sue.

Yeah, i'm really not sold on Horus being the greatest. He's so reliant on others being the work horse and i think he's too admired by his peers as a charmismatic person to be fairly judged. HALO effect etc. And he lacks cool stuff. There's that. His only move is GO FOR QUICK CRITICAL STRIKE, FAST FINISH. That's nothing new to these godlike beings.

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@cergic: Good list, but idk if I 100% agree due to a few factors, do note my list is based on non jobbing versions and not caught up in the moment or goofing up. Regardless, good work on posting such a in depth answer and it's always a joy to read your responses! :)

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Army2442

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@cergic: I suppose it is true that Horus lacks the special powers that his brothers do, for example Khan has super speed, Sang/Kruze pre cog, Vulkan immortality, Dorn base building, etc. Even Angron was an empath before he was nerfed with butchers nails. Perhaps Horus' power was charisma, not that he got to display it much since chaos has the habit of turning you into a card carrying villain a lot of the time.

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Ahzek_Ahriman

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Primarchs are HARD to rank if that's what's going on here, but I'd do it in tiers. Matchups are very hard, notably because Primarchs are very matchup specific.

Tier 0: Horus Ascendant
Tier 1: Magnus (if he remembers he's a psyker), Sanguinius (Sangy is so far above anyone else in pure combat its stupid. He killed Daemon Angron and Kha'Banda back to back) and Perturabo with prep
Tier 2: The Khan, Normal Horus, Daemon Angron, Angron, Daemon Mortarion, The Lion and Russ
Tier 2.5: Curze, Vulkan and Daemon Fulgrim
Tier 3: Fulgrim, Mortarion, Perturabo, Dorn, Gulliman, Corax
Tier 4: Lorgar and Alpharius/Omegon.

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Ahzek_Ahriman

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@cergic: I'll say you underrated the Night Haunter. Even Russ admitted he'd lose to him, though its probably a matchup thing its still significant

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Ahzek_Ahriman

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@cergic said:

Yeah, i'm really not sold on Horus being the greatest. He's so reliant on others being the work horse and i think he's too admired by his peers as a charmismatic person to be fairly judged. HALO effect etc. And he lacks cool stuff. There's that. His only move is GO FOR QUICK CRITICAL STRIKE, FAST FINISH. That's nothing new to these godlike beings.

Horus probably wouldn't have been the strongest until well into the Heresy. By the point where the Four were using him as a sockpuppet, he could've pretty casually killed any of his corrupted brothers and thats pretty much admitted by all of them when they met in the Siege of Terra series.

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Ahzek_Ahriman

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@army2442 said:

@cergic: I suppose it is true that Horus lacks the special powers that his brothers do, for example Khan has super speed, Sang/Kruze pre cog, Vulkan immortality, Dorn base building, etc. Even Angron was an empath before he was nerfed with butchers nails. Perhaps Horus' power was charisma, not that he got to display it much since chaos has the habit of turning you into a card carrying villain a lot of the time.

There were two notable features that defined Horus. First off, he was a phenomenal leader, with only Gulliman and the Lion rivaling him in compliances and leadership abilities and only Perturabo and Dorn being his betters in the actual nitty gritty details of waging a war.

Secondly, Horus had this incredibly preternatural charisma that he usually tried to downplay by masking it in reasoned arguments and well crafted wordplay. It seemed he inherited that from Emps, but when he actually kicked it into gear he could just flat out make Primarchs kneel before him and was even able to reason with Angron of all people. After his ascension. It was notably almost impossible to dislike him when you'd met him in person, which is why he had good relations with near any primarch.

Horus gets hyped up as a combatant because Russ said Horus is a good matchup for him, but Russ is overrated in no small part due to his in-game stats being absolutely borked.

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cergic

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@cergic: I'll say you underrated the Night Haunter. Even Russ admitted he'd lose to him, though its probably a matchup thing its still significant

I do, and a lot. I think he's lost convincingly to actual skill the moments his insanity or ambush plot isn't there to give him feats. Most of his showings involves prep or context that diminishes his actual showings imo

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MordhauExtreme1

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@cergic:

1-5 Sang, Lion, Magnus, Russ and Vulkan are my top 5. It's always rock paper scissors when it comes to primarchs. Sang's top 1 though.

Russ lost to Horus and Angron, so why would Russ be top dog? Vulkan is the strongest of the primarchs for sure, but he's lost repeatedly to Kurze which means Kurze by default should be superior to him much to the same Sang is superior to Daemon Prince Angron despite Angron having better strength, durability, and regen. Sang still out does him in skill. Vulkan is a good fighter, a great fighter, but he isnt a duelist like Fulgrim, Sang, Lion, and or even Kurze

Horus is the greatest "jack of all trades" kind of primarch and mostly a command primarch thats why he was put as Warmaster because hes stated to be the best commander the IoM ever had yes even superior to Dorn and or Pert, but in a defensive manner the two are superior in only that aspect

The top 5 is always described as incredibly capable, no real weaknesses, good showings and so on. Their weaker showings are with context or stupidity.

Mort's biggest weakness is insecurity and Khan proved so, but unless someone finds this out then its unlikely he would lose much considering hes the second strongest primarch even before his DP rise. Khan said even Mort matched him in skill but had superior stats and Khan had to trash talk him to win ( hence the insecurity )

Scars fight ( Massive quote take a glance and if u want me to, I can post the short version with the ending being the same for context reasons but this is the full fight )

‘Then you will not be persuaded,’ said Mortarion, his filtered voice sunken into a surly growl. ‘A shame. I invested much energy to save you, brother. I shall take no pleasure in your destruction.’ Behind the Khan, the keshig readied their blades. ‘And there is the difference between you and me,’ said the Khan, moving his dao into guard. ‘By the time I make my kills, I am always laughing.’.....The Khan struck first, moving faster than thought, his cloak swirling about him. Mortarion met the blow with his scythe, and a radial wave shot out from Silence, throwing up the ash in swirling clouds.....‘I see your mind, brother,’ hissed the Khan, hammering home the attack. ‘You would turn me, or end me.’ Mortarion grunted as he blocked the incoming dao. He moved far more slowly than the Khan, but everything he did was solid, dense, and indomitable. ‘If you’re stubborn enough not to see the chance here, then, yes – your time is over.’ The Khan laughed. Wielding his blade again freely felt good. The psychneuein had been a trivial challenge – going up against a fellow primarch was the kind of test he had missed for too long. He darted in close, spinning on one boot before thrusting his sword at Mortarion’s midriff. The strike was blocked, but the Death Lord stumbled. ‘So slow,’ taunted the Khan. His blade danced, flashing like the lightning above. Every strike was weighted heavily, slicing chunks from Mortarion’s thick plate as if it were corroded scrap. ‘You got everything wrong. Why exchange one master for another? And do not take me for a fool – only one soul may rule from the Throneworld.’.....Mortarion rallied, breathing hard. Though his reflexes were slow, his strength was impressive. He had already taken blows that would have felled a lesser warrior and yet seemed barely troubled. ‘Your Legion called out,’ he snarled, wielding Silence in deadening sweeps. ‘You have cells operating in every brotherhood, desperate to serve. All we did was answer them.’ The Khan laughed again. He felt alive, unfettered, free for the first time in months to act. ‘The lodges, eh? Secret societies? You think that’ll be enough to drag us behind the Warmaster?’ Mortarion dug in, and his heavy boots sank into the ash. The Khan launched a series of blistering dao-blows, glancing off the Death Lord’s thick pauldrons and sending him reeling. ‘I let them meet,’ the Khan said. His blade was moving brutally, smearing with speed and clanging from the scythe. ‘I have always let them. I am not a tyrant, brother.’ Mortarion started to rally, meeting the Khan’s fury with resolute efficiency. He took a stride back in close, planting his feet widely to close down another incoming stroke. The two weapons twisted and rebounded, sending sparks flying through the gloom. The intensity of it was vicious. Every perfect movement was vindication of the Emperor’s gene-majesty, albeit exemplified in two totally different aspects. The troops battling around them, themselves titans of combat, were reduced to irrelevance, like mortal warriors straying into the quarrels of gods. ‘We are all tyrants,’ Mortarion rasped, picking up the pace of his scythe-blows. ‘Do not fool yourself. We were bred for nothing else.’ ‘Not I,’ said the Khan, whirling around him, moving with an almost unconscious balance. ‘I care nothing for dominion. Never have. You, on the other hand... You. You yearn for it.’ The Khan drove Mortarion back further, pounding and pummelling him across the square’s margins and towards the edge of the broken pyramid. They reeled together under the shadow of Photep’s Arch, the old entrance to the immense vaults within, now roofless and gaping....They could fight now. They knew the enemy. They could see him, and that was enough. ‘I deserve it,’ Mortarion wheezed, gasping into his rebreather as he laboured under the assault. ‘I always deserved it. You could have joined me.’ The Khan did not relent. His blade was like a shard of starlight, fierce and irresistible. ‘Your time will come. You tell me the warp should be forgotten, shut away. How little you know. It will come for you now. Killing you here will be a mercy. I can already see your future darkening, dragging at your very soul.’ The two of them thundered across the base level of the pyramid, followed at every step by the echoing clash of arms around them....‘All futures are dark, now,’ Mortarion replied, swiping savagely and backhanding his scythe into the edge of an exposed archway. The keystone smashed to rubble around him. ‘You have no idea what Horus has become, nor the Emperor. They are both monsters, but you have chosen the wrong one. Horus is a fighter. He is one of us, not some immortal… aberration.’ The Khan laughed as he pursued him, this time from genuine pleasure. ‘Immortal aberration?’ he mused, dragging his blade down at a sharp angle and nearly severing a thicket of Mortarion’s feeder cables. ‘We all share his blood. What does that make us?’ More powdered stonework, destroyed by Mortarion’s wild scythe-blows, bloomed in a cloud around them. Bolt-trails whined and punched through the haze before cracking into what remained of the architecture. Uncaring of anything but their own contest, the two primarchs hacked their way towards the pyramid’s core, overshadowed by immense pillars and gaping roof-curves, trading blows of such heft that the earth shuddered beneath them. ‘Just what do you think will happen here?’ spat Mortarion, digging in again and halting his backward course. His armour had been hacked into a tattered parody of its former solidity. ‘Think you can behead me, like Fulgrim did Ferrus?’ The Khan missed his aim then for the first time. Was that true? Was Ferrus gone? Mortarion surged back at him, kicking the hilt of Silence hard into the Khan’s leading leg. The ivory greave-plate cracked, fizzing with energy as the ceramite fractured. The Khan veered away from the follow-up strike, nearly losing his footing entirely. He staggered backwards as Mortarion went onto the offensive. ‘Oh yes, he’s dead,’ Mortarion rasped. ‘The numbers are against you already. They will only get worse.’ The Khan glanced upwards, up into the immense voids of the pyramid’s heights. Tiny flecks of glass rained down from the smashed apex, sparkling bloodily from the fires kindling in the fissures below. Prospero’s landscape growled its sullen anger, as though the world itself were outraged at a second duel of primarchs upon its soil. The carbon-dark sky, starless and empty, roiled above the jagged maw of the summit. Mortarion’s cloak spread wide, buoyed by hot updraughts from the cobweb of glowing crevasses. For a moment, he looked like some vision of the underworld, a phantom of old Chogoris – consumed by yaksha, eternal and devilish. The Khan fell back further, holding his dao two-handed. Mortarion was strong, as strong as the roots of the Ulaav mountains, but he was slow. The two of them were perfectly matched, like two sides of a medal. If we fought on the same side, he and I, countering our weaknesses, could anything stand before us? he thought. Even Horus? Even the Emperor? He gazed into Mortarion’s pallid face and saw the resentment burning there, just as it did in him. He is lost. We have all been betrayed. The Death Lord strode closer, sweeping Silence low and hard, his expression curdling into hatred, his sclerotic breath low and rapid. ‘Come then, brother,’ said the Khan, bracing for the impact once more, holding position amidst the glass tears of Magnus’s lost city. ‘Let us decide this, you and I. For eternity.’.....Mortarion’s raw strength was renewed. Facing it full-on, the Khan doubted that any of his brothers, save perhaps Ferrus, could have matched it. The Death Lord absorbed every strike that connected, sucking the power out of the blows like a leech, taking the hits and coming back for more....As they broke into the circle, the Khan felt himself tiring at last. Never in uncounted years of combat had he felt more than trivial stirrings of fatigue. He had fought the greatest champions of xenos races, had brought down creatures that stood as tall as Warhound Titans, had carved his way through fields of greenskins as violent and unending as the tides of the sea, and still he had never felt the bone-deep drag that Mortarion inspired. Only the primarchs could destroy the primarchs. Mortarion began to laugh in his coarse way. ‘Never had it this hard, eh?’ he grunted, still wielding Silence heavily. He was suffering too – blood flecked his cheeks and forehead, and his rebreather rattled as he hauled in thick breaths. The Khan launched another attack, flourishing the dao before searching for a way through Mortarion’s stony defence. He was still faster, still more accomplished with the blade, but it was like duelling with entropy itself. ‘You neither,’ the Khan observed, gesturing to the lines of reddened sweat trickling down Mortarion’s ash-grey temples. ‘True enough.’ Mortarion’s voice gave away his regret. Even amidst the slow-burn resentments, the long bitterness, the Death Lord was still sane enough to see the irony of the situation. The primarchs had been bred to fight as part of one army, each brother making up for the deficiencies of the other. For all the jealousies and rivalries, in terms of raw conquest that army had been perfect. The Emperor’s vision – the Great Crusade for Unity, sweeping across the stars, governed by twenty immortal avatars of his own unmatched psyche – had been impeccable. Now, though, here they were: brawling amidst the embers of Russ’s vandalism. The fall was already severe, and they both knew that it would plummet deeper before the end. ‘You could recant,’ the Khan said, falling away from a whistling sweep of the scythe just as it angled at his helm. ‘Horus does not own you.’ Mortarion snorted. ‘No, and he never will.’ ‘You have seen our father’s glory unleashed – none of us could stand against him.’ Mortarion surged back on the offensive. Around them, the columns flickered and leapt with the reflection of fiery disruptor energies. ‘He is hobbled by his own mistakes. The Throneroom is a den of nightmares, one that he cannot leave. The field is open – it is ours to claim.’ The Khan beat away a scythe-strike and went for Mortarion’s gorget. At the last minute he jutted the blade down, slipped below the defence and cut a long gash in the primarch’s breastplate. This time the blade cut deep, paring already fractured armour and delving into the ribcage below. Mortarion grimaced and jerked clear, cracking the Khan’s sword away with his scythe-shaft and staggering backwards. ‘There is nothing to seize,’ growled the Khan, going after him. ‘Nothing but burned earth. Look around you – you will make this the whole galaxy.’ Mortarion snarled defiantly and barrelled back at him, using the scythe like a halberd and smashing the hilt into the Khan’s midriff. The Khan lurched away, stumbling across the uneven floor, and Mortarion lumbered after him. More blows came in – hard, heavy, earth-shaking blows. The Khan was driven further, only barely able to weather the explosion of fury directed at him. When they slammed together again the impact was bone-jarring. They tore into one another, each strike powered by raw defiance. Fragments of armour flew like shrapnel. Gas exploded from Mortarion’s store of vials as the glass was shattered, nearly blinding them both. Blood flew in straggling splatters, trailing across both combatants and staining their armour. As they hacked and countered, neither giving up so much as a centimetre of ground, it mingled upon the blades’ edges, as rich and dark as wine. As the Khan fought on, the taste of copper in his mouth and the burn of acid in his muscles, he felt the lore of the plains nag at him. He needed space – room to use his speed. He had to break free, to turn the fight to his strengths, to rip clear of Mortarion’s cloying grasp. Summoning up one last burst of energy, the Khan bludgeoned aside the scythe and pulled away, beckoning his adversary to come after him. The Death Lord held Silence high, casting a sickleshadow over the eye-device upon the floor. His ripped cloak billowed out in an almost parodic vision of old legends – the reaper-myth of a thousand human worlds, summoned into life on a world of extinguished souls. The Khan held position, panting hard, trying to drag up energy for the final clash. His hearts thudded, his lungs burned. He held the dao poised, waiting for his enemy to move. Come to me. You can see my weakness. One thrust. One perfect thrust, angled precisely – he had the strength for that. It would have to be flawless; if it were not, no defence remained. Nothing else would suffice for this enemy. No lesser move would accomplish the kill. But Mortarion did not move. He stood, rigid, as though suddenly listening for something. His scythe fell into guard. A thin coughing broke from his mask, which the Khan soon realised was an exhausted kind of chortle. ‘So the choice has been made.’ The Khan held his ground, unsure what he meant. Mortarion gestured to the Deathshroud, and they began to pull back towards his position. ‘Our ships are at war, brother,’ wheezed Mortarion acidly, limping into retreat. ‘This was not what we were promised, but I will not lose a fleet for this fight.’ The words blurred from all the blood bubbling in his mouth, spilling out from the edges of his mask. ‘Mark it, though – this thing is eternal between us, now. You and I, our fates bonded in this place. Remember that. It was here that it started.’

-Warhammer 40k: Scars

Warhawk Fight ( ill post soon too lazy right now but Mort was winning the fight and Khan knew it. That's why he used sick burns like calling Typhus the real Primarch/chapter master of the Death Guard along with calling Mort a quicker stating that he was weaker than himself as an insult to throw Mort off his game. )

so overall I dont think he any worse of an issue than Magnus, Russ, or even Vulkan who lives via his immortality. Because just like during their first fight, Khan was on his last legs with Mort and the aftermath of their second fight put Khan in a comatose state.

@fromfurtherdisc:What u listed up above most of which the Emperor and or foes he fought have already done, the biggest thing that he hasnt done is wiped a galaxy which he can't, but what hes also done is hold back an omniverse from consuming the galaxy as well and guided ships safely through the warp to, hes also brought people back from the dead and brought them back into another micro verse ( the webway ) outside of the OG's universe. However ure excuse for the T'au and the reason behind is, is a joke. The Tau are a very very very very small empire and are considered bottom of the list in what the IoM needs to do. Even if you have the spheres growing. The IoM would take the loss for the time being until theyve dealt with the Tyranids and Forces of Chaos since you know... half the galaxy is cut in half currently.

If the Emperor ever did have power across the Galaxy and that is a big 'IF' that power died with the 'Hersey' or Age of Darkness.

flat out false

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The hall on the far side of the portal was of lifeless stone, part-panelled in wood killed a thousand light years away and brought in slow-drying agony across the stars. This world was as dead as its ruler. The stink of humanity lay thick upon it, the statues near the ceiling coated in dust, the shed skin cells of people five hundred cycles gone. The psychic effect was a hideous weight, thousands of years of human suffering pressing in on Lhaerial’s sensitive mind, and that was the least of it. Crushing the sensation of the dead of the Earth was the titanic presence of the Corpse Emperor.

Such power made Lhaerial’s mind reel, and for a moment her contempt for the creatures of Terra wavered. The mind of the Emperor was a mountain in the surging madness of the Othersea, blinding in its brilliance. The Great Powers circled this place like razorshark waiting out the death throes of a void-whale. That terrible presence held them back, and all His little servants were ignorant of it! Unease gripped her, that she would be noticed by the Dark Gods or their defier, and the fragile flame of her being snuffed out.

The feeling passed. The regard of the things of the Othersea was ossified, so long had they fixed their gaze on the Earth. The Emperor did not shift His regard. His attention was elsewhere, upon the blinding pyre of souls, navigation beacon of the mon-keigh. She had no indication she was seen. There was little relief in that. She had laughed in the face of She Who Thirsts, but the Corpse Emperor filled her with a sense of dread.

-Warhammer 40k: Throneworld

It's again fairly obvious the Emperor is whom is holding back the warp, nothing else. He dies everyone loses it's quite simple honestly.

The Emperor has to be defeated not just physically but by soul as well at the same time

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FYI GEoM is weaker on the throne. This matters because in theory if the Emperor wasn't broken like he was against horus then he would of achieved far greater power rather than hanging on. Granted in the newer lore hes getting stronger regardless and my guess is that its via prayer or simply plot ( example he brings Girlyman back life fully despite Girlyman dying to the Godblight plague )

I saw my father. Ruined. Broken. I knew it was Him, though His body was little more than a corpse, for I could feel His mind. His power was much reduced in potency, and I could feel no sense of consciousness there, merely raging, ungoverned power that threatened to obliterate my sleeping mind. This living corpse of my father was trapped in machinery that fed His soul the essence of others. I do not know if I should commit this to paper, even in my private writings.

-Warhammer 40k: Dante

GEoM has the ability to beat people like the Tau Empire, but he doesnt because hes busy fending off the Chaos Gods and saving his own empire from crumbing, granted it's a failing task as even GeeDubs already states 1 everything comes from the warp, 2 everything will return to the warp, and 3 the GEoM stated himself he can't beat chaos only stem it especially now because hes on the Golden Throne

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Army2442

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@mordhauextreme1: Didn't Russ have the chance to kill Horus when he had the spear of the emperor but hesitated at the last moment, allowing Horus to recover and win the fight? Also that was Ascended Horus, so Russ >>> normal Horus.

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MordhauExtreme1

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#48  Edited By MordhauExtreme1

@army2442 said:

@mordhauextreme1: Didn't Russ have the chance to kill Horus when he had the spear of the emperor but hesitated at the last moment, allowing Horus to recover and win the fight? Also that was Ascended Horus, so Russ >>> normal Horus.

Do u want the truth? Because the whole thing is nothing but PIS. I mean it, Here's how it goes

Horus notices his dark powers don't affect Russ, so Russ and Horus enter into a brawl, Horus wins until he doesnt because "raisins" what I mean by this is, Horus pucked him up good enough for Russ to exit his armor and tear at Horus' claw and so on. Russ ends up using the spear on Horus but doesn't thrust and murk him right then and there. Horus is cleansed of his heresy, so Russ and Horus talk both trying to convince each other to join each other's side. Because believe or not, Horus doesn't believe the GEoM wants him back, ikr? haha. This fails, so they brawl again and now an unamped Horus beats the breaks... off of.... Russ..... Yes let that sink in, an amped Molech ( place horus got amped ) Horus starts to win, then loses to Russ only for Russ to lose to basic Horus while non amped... How Russ lives is his space wolves come in and tackle Horus long enough for Russ to leave ( mind u Horus murks all space wolves ), but yeah that's what happens.

Long story short, Amped Horus beats Russ until Russ pulls PIS, Basic Horus stomps Russ, Russ has to retreat. lol

Edit, keep in mind Russ has lost to Angron and the Lion as well, so his track record isn't exactly great and Magnus would of beaten Russ and almost did if it wasn't for his dogs, sisters of silence, Russ' natural anti psyker abilities, etc. Russ has a lot of plot going for him and in the end he barely wins. People like Space wolves cause of the vikings in space theme, but honestly I think they're overrated, cool legion/chapter, but I prefer Blood Angels and Salamanders myself if I was to side with loyalist

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Army2442

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@mordhauextreme1: I thought that Russ stalemated Lion, he only lost due to putting his guard down and getting sucker punched. With Angron he was trying to teach him a lesson, namely that tactics and positioning are important in battle.

As for the whole Russ vs Horus thing, it seems like it was admittedly a bad fight and didn't make sense. It didn't make any sense for Russ to yolo off and try to solo Horus in the first place and felt like filler anyway.

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#50  Edited By cergic

@mordhauextreme1:

Almost all fair points, but regarding Russ, his weaker showings are in my mind clearly there to give way for context or narrative push. His loss against Angron is such an out of character thing for him and they drive home that he could beat Angron had he chosen to. Plus we know he squared equal with Horus when an he ha big Es spear when Horus was chaos juices, so he is capable as it comes. His psyket/warp suppression makes him all the more dangerous.

As for Conrad, he had a stage vs Vulcan. 1v1 in a normal scenario and he is toast. To clarify, i am suggesting that Conrad made sure he had every scene and option to unfairly kill Vulcan whenever he liked. What Vulcan did with sheer physicals against the Orks boat offensively and defensively is sometimes Conrad would never be able to mimic in his wildest dreams.

Bonus addendum is that Guilliman really is being sold short too often

Here is a nice snippet:

From the novel, Betrayer:

"When the fighting allowed it, Lhorke would turn his attention to the Primarchs, seeing the furious three-way battle playing out atop a mound of dead. Even there Guilliman had been holding his own against both of them until Lorgar ceased his attack."