Bleach's Cosmology - A Brief Explanation

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Wanderez

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Edited By Wanderez

To this day, I'm still seeing things like planet level Yhwach, featless Soul King, flow of souls, etc etc. This, combined with the recent fan fiction map of the cosmology have inspired me to make this. I'm not expecting that these things will disappear, no, there will always be people who will simply neglect everything that will follow this and the next sentence, just because they don't like it. All I hope for is that we'll at least have less cases of planet level Yhwach, featless Soul King and the rest of the gems.

Shall we begin?

The terms "Soul Society" and World of the Living"

Back in the day, we didn't have much to work with. Realistically, since we didn't have the context of the novel, we assumed every one of those terms was meant to reference the planets, even though that was never even stated to be the case. It was normal back in the day, because that was all we had. The statement for Yamamoto's Bankai for example should rather mean the planet - he's literally a sun after all. Yamamoto was also vaporizing all the water in the atmosphere. So, saying they meant that he'll destroy the entire realm sounds a bit silly in this particular case. And this basically solidified planet sized Soul Society and World of the Living.

While this is correct, it is also wrong. As the CFYOW novel proves, the terms "Soul Society" and "World of the Living" can also refer to the entire realms, not just the planets. It entirely depends on the context of the scene.

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"If they could be likened to planets". Only way it could've been more straight-forward was if it was stated that the realms are literally universes. Why do I mention the term "universe" all of a sudden? Well, let us see:

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What does "would have returned to a universe" mean? It basically solidifies their size. If a universe it split in two, the two (or three if you want to count Hueco Mundo) realms would still be universe sized. Both realms having countless stars as well as WotL being based on our irl world should be more than enough proof for that.

Now that this is over with, onto the next topic!

The Garganta

The Garganta is, simply-put, is a void of nothing but Reishi torrents and Kyogoku (dimensions) spawning randomly. One of these dimensions was explored in the Memories of Nobody movie. The Garganta engulfs Bleach's realms entirely. We know this, because of what I said above and because there are no stars in the Garganta. Furthermore, Shinigami can't breathe in space, while in the Garganta they can, under specific circumstances of course. Here's the canon illustration from the manga, which confirms about everything I said so far:

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Now, let us get back to the novel.

Soul King didn't simply split the old universe into the current realms. He also created a "boundary". Said boundary is the Garganta itself.

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But, hold up! That's not it! Yhwach was stated in both the manga and the novel that he'll destroy the Garganta. On multiple occasions at that.

How do we know that said "boundary" is the Garganta? Well, there are a couple ways to confirm this statement of mine:

  • The Garganta is the only thing that has a connection/connects all of Bleach's realms.
  • It was directly stated in the manga as shown above that Yhwach was going to destroy the Garganta. The only thing that the novels mention that is akin to the Garganta is addressed as “boundary”.
  • It makes sense context-wise in every possible way, shape or form.

I would say this settles the Garganta situation. Now, there are arguments that can be made regarding the possibility of the Garganta being infinite in size, that however in my humble opinion doesn't have enough support as of now.

Flow of souls

Flow of souls, or flow of konpaku was ever hardly a thing. The Soul King was never directly stated to be stabilizing the realms through it on the manga. Soul King was stated to be "stabilizing the realms, where massive numbers of konpaku pass through". This hardly means he stabilizes them through the flow itself, that's basic reading comprehension. Neither was Yhwach ever stated to be destroying the realms using said flow. He was in fact stated to be using his own power.

Have you never wondered? If Soul King is maintaining said flow of konpaku, why do Shinigami have to intervene? Think about it. Each time the flow was endangered, it was not the Soul King who took responsibility, it was the Shinigami. During SAFWY novel, where Azashiro aimed to eradicate all Hollows, it was the Shinigami who had to act. When the Quincy invasion began and Hollows were getting annihilated, it was yet again the Shinigami who stepped in. If Soul King was in fact maintaining the flow of konpaku, he'd be able to balance both sides when one was tilting.

If Soul King was regulating the flow of souls, Shinigami wouldn't need to actively send souls to Soul Society/Hell.

That however has never been the case. Any of it. The reason why? Well, none of this is true. In fact, it's all a lie:

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It is also worth mentioning that after Yhwach's defeat, his corpse and precisely his Reiatsu was sealed and used as the new lynchpin to stabilize the world the prevent it from collapsing. This novel quote below directly says that Yhwach's Reiatsu is stabilizing a universe.

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This is a nail in the flow of konpaku coffin "argument". Period.

Conclusion

  • Soul King is not featless. He split a universe in two smaller universes and created a structure, which completely engulfs said universes and can even be argued to be infinite in size.
  • Yhwach was not going to destroy the planets. Yhwach was going to destroy the universes as well as the boundary, the Garganta, in order to fuse them and form the old universe, where there'd no longer be a concept of death.
  • The flow of konpaku argument is not even a thing.

With that being said, hopefully I didn't miss anything important. And if I did, I'll make sure to edit the blog and apply it.

Made a google blog with updated stuff. Make sure to check it out. It is more complete that the one above.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W_s7z9kwxPjNsOyW_tSPcP-y70YL3u8euvGj-qW55EM/edit#heading=h.dss1n3xxv1nw

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Lil_Darkie

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not reading all that and I advice others to pick up the series themselves and make up their minds about it

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After all this i'm now certain that soul society and The world of the living is definitely not a planet but something far greater.

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Undre

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#3  Edited By Undre

Also confirmed in the novels wol is a universe

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Confirm here shimgami also protect the stars via balancing the souls im the universe.

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Souls that fell outside of the ss and wol create these dimension called the valley of screams. These dimensions also have stars in them and ss and wol are much larger than them. Which further proves their not planets

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Wanderez

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@undre:

The Kakyo and Kaname bit is a metaphor.

Though the SAFWY scan is nice addition. It literally uses the word for universe "uchū". I'll definitely be saving this one and I hope SAFWY gets translated soon.

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UstanLeengard

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@wanderez: Hmm, there's a good portion of this that seems to be based on interpretation. For example the sketches. Another interpretation could be that the first picture is both the realms of soul society and the world of the living. And the line in the middle represents the boundary between them (probably dangai). That line in the middle seems to break and splits the two halves apart. In that other sketch the sphere at the top could be hueco mundo since that has to fit somewhere in this whole map. This setup makes more sense to me as it illustrates why hueco mundo can only be reached from through the garganta while the dangai connects SS and WOTL. There's also another sketch that comes after these that show all of those floating orbs spilling onto the scale and the scale tips over. The contents fall out of the broken scale spelling "despair" which is what Juha represented. I think these sketches reinforce the theory that Juha was going to destroy the dangai and break the balance of the worlds causing them to collapse in on each other. I'm not sure what level of power it would take to destroy that though.

Also for the section with the boy and his father, the question he asked was what it was like before the linchpin was setup. His father said such a time didn't exist which was a lie. That statement doesn't seem to be directed at the whole flow of souls thing. But the Soul king's role in the balance does seem to be ambiguous. I think it is likely that his power is needed for an automatic processing of souls coming into and going outside the soul society kinda like a gatekeeper. But this automatic processing isn't enough to handle extraordinary situations like the one's you've listed.

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Wanderez

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#6  Edited By Wanderez
@ustanleengard said:

@wanderez: Hmm, there's a good portion of this that seems to be based on interpretation. For example the sketches. Another interpretation could be that the first picture is both the realms of soul society and the world of the living. And the line in the middle represents the boundary between them (probably dangai). That line in the middle seems to break and splits the two halves apart. In that other sketch the sphere at the top could be hueco mundo since that has to fit somewhere in this whole map. This setup makes more sense to me as it illustrates why hueco mundo can only be reached from through the garganta while the dangai connects SS and WOTL. There's also another sketch that comes after these that show all of those floating orbs spilling onto the scale and the scale tips over. The contents fall out of the broken scale spelling "despair" which is what Juha represented. I think these sketches reinforce the theory that Juha was going to destroy the dangai and break the balance of the worlds causing them to collapse in on each other. I'm not sure what level of power it would take to destroy that though.

Well, the Soul Society and WotL are separated, one can even argue they're their own space-times. And the boundary cannot be the Dangai as I explained above. Hueco Mundo does not seem to appear on the illustration from the manga either, in fact we don't even know where exactly it's located. But I do see where you're coming from and like I said, this is just my interpretation. The main point is that the first sketch is strikingly identical to the one where Gremmy is imagining a galaxy.

Also for the section with the boy and his father, the question he asked was what it was like before the linchpin was setup. His father said such a time didn't exist which was a lie. That statement doesn't seem to be directed at the whole flow of souls thing. But the Soul king's role in the balance does seem to be ambiguous. I think it is likely that his power is needed for an automatic processing of souls coming into and going outside the soul society kinda like a gatekeeper. But this automatic processing isn't enough to handle extraordinary situations like the one's you've listed.

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But then this follows. He was trying to tell him that he should be thankful to the Shinigami and the Soul King for endlessly existing, which goes back to the flow of konpaku quote. Either way, this is just one of many points. I'm basically trying to debunk something that was never even stated.

Anyways, thank you for stopping by and reading this. I appreciate it!

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ryuuzakiscorpio

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@wanderez: Hmm, there's a good portion of this that seems to be based on interpretation. For example the sketches.

The sketches at the end of the chapters have always been animated in the anime for the most part. We will have to wait on that. Maybe they will animate the cosmology been destroyed. May not. Not important for now.

Another interpretation could be that the first picture is both the realms of soul society and the world of the living. And the line in the middle represents the boundary between them (probably dangai). That line in the middle seems to break and splits the two halves apart. In that other sketch the sphere at the top could be hueco mundo since that has to fit somewhere in this whole map. This setup makes more sense to me as it illustrates why hueco mundo can only be reached from through the garganta while the dangai connects SS and WOTL. There's also another sketch that comes after these that show all of those floating orbs spilling onto the scale and the scale tips over. The contents fall out of the broken scale spelling "despair" which is what Juha represented. I think these sketches reinforce the theory that Juha was going to destroy the dangai and break the balance of the worlds causing them to collapse in on each other. I'm not sure what level of power it would take to destroy that though.

The boundary can't be the Dangai. The Dangai only connects Soul Societ and World of the Living. Both manga and light novel mentioned the boundary Yhwach was going to destroyed included Hueco Mundo. There is also a comment about the Garganta been destroyed in the manga from characters that were put up to date with the events by Urahara. But even if it was the Dangai, it was big enough to swallow Soul Society and World of the Living spheres (that are not planets because look they look like mars) where the blanks were pulling them closer to each other in a collision course in Memories of Nobody.

Also for the section with the boy and his father, the question he asked was what it was like before the linchpin was setup. His father said such a time didn't exist which was a lie. That statement doesn't seem to be directed at the whole flow of souls thing. But the Soul king's role in the balance does seem to be ambiguous. I think it is likely that his power is needed for an automatic processing of souls coming into and going outside the soul society kinda like a gatekeeper. But this automatic processing isn't enough to handle extraordinary situations like the one's you've listed.

There is a statement about Yhwach's power holding the world together with his own power instead of the flow of souls. If I may add, the "Soul King controls the flow of souls like a plate in a stick" was not an official translation.

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Undre

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@ustanleengard: no yhwach was destroying all the realms with his own power not via just destroying the boundaries. We literally see his energy destroying everything. The panel with the universe split in to and the other orbs is not the ss and wol its. The grains of sand/future yhwach cutt apart. It appears on the same chapter yhwach said he wss cutting apart ichigos future. As the almighty controls different future timelines.

Soul king balances the world with his power. It's stated his power holds the realms together and is used a energy for them. It was also described as person holding the weight of the worlds. So the soul literal holds up a entire universe passively

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Number3561

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#9  Edited By Number3561

@wanderez: Not a bad post, but I think there are some counter-arguments.

What does "would have returned to a universe" mean? It basically solidifies their size. If a universe it split in two, the two (or three if you want to count Hueco Mundo) realms would still be universe sized.

I don't understand. If a universe is split into separate dimensions, the sizes of each dimension wouldn't themselves be universal in size. Rather, if you add up all the dimensions in Bleach (WotL, SS, HM, Hell, Dangai, Garganta, etc.) then that combined dimension would be universe-sized like it was in the primordial age. I agree the worlds are clearly more than just planets though.

Soul King didn't simply split the old universe into the current realms. He also created a "boundary". Said boundary is the Garganta itself.

This is open to interpretation. "Boundary between life and death" doesn't necessarily refer to a physical barrier, but a conceptual difference between the two states of being. In the same way that Aizen always talked about the "boundary between Hollows and Shinigami."

Yhwach was stated in both the manga and the novel that he'll destroy the Garganta.

There's a difference between the Garganta being destroyed as a consequence of Yhwach's actions, and Yhwach personally busting the Garganta with raw power. Two of your pieces of evidence simply acknowledge that the universe would've returned to primordial soup due to Yhwach, and one is Ganju stating that the Garganta would be destroyed as a result of Yhwach's actions.

How do we know that said "boundary" is the Garganta? Well, there are a couple ways to confirm this statement

There are some things that make this interpretation questionable.

1) Neither Yhwach or anyone else references the Garganta by name as a target for his destruction, which is a little weird if that was really Yhwach's goal.

2) Multiple quotes refer vaguely to the "boundaries" between worlds being destroyed, not naming the Garganta.

"Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared"

"The extended earthquake had happened during the war between the Soul Reapers and the Quincies, when the boundaries between the Soul Society, the World of the Living, and Hueco Mundo had almost been destroyed"

It's a little shaky for these quotes to be referring to the Garganta, when often times they say "boundaries" (plural and lowercase). Normally they'd just namedrop the Garganta if that's what they were talking about. Especially when the Garganta has never been called by the "boundary" as a signifier before. The boundaries again may not be a physical, named structure; they could just symbolize the separation between the worlds.

Soul King was stated to be "stabilizing the realms, where massive numbers of konpaku pass through". This hardly means he stabilizes them through the flow itself, that's basic reading comprehension.

Eh, Yhwach says: "Reio was created to stabilize the Soul Society, where massive numbers of souls pass through!" There is absolutely no reason to mention the flow of souls as context for Reio's purpose of stabilizing SS, if it's supposedly unconnected. The reason Reio stabilizes SS and not some other random structure, would be specifically because of the high volume of souls through that area. The author didn't give that extra context for it to just be ignored as unrelated, useless information.

No Caption Provided

Neither was Yhwach ever stated to be destroying the realms using said flow. He was in fact stated to be using his own power.

Yhwach was never stated to be using raw power to destroy the realms either, so this isn't exactly a point in your favor. Regardless, control over the soul flow and the consequent stabilization of the worlds could be considered "power" in and of itself.

If Soul King is maintaining said flow of konpaku, why do Shinigami have to intervene?

This isn't really a contradiction. A severe enough imbalance of souls could simply put too much strain on Reio's ability to maintain stability with the flow. Reio is essentially a corpse with no consciousness after all.

Don't you think it's curious that the imbalance of souls caused by the Quincies was going to lead to a universal collapse in a similar fashion to the death of Reio? Compare the explanations given by Urahara and Kajomaru about the soul imbalance, to explanations given about Reio's death or Yhwach's goal. The fact that a soul imbalance and the death of one who's suggested to stabilize soul flow both lead to the same result (universal collapse as boundaries are destroyed and worlds spill into one another) is interesting.

The reason why? Well, none of this is true. In fact, it's all a lie:

Tokinada's father lied about there being no history before Reio, and concealed the circumstances of Reio's coronation. When Tokinada finds out the truth about his ancestors betraying, sealing, and mutilating Reio, that's when he confirms his suspicion.

It's never implied that the "lie" was Reio controlling the universal flow of souls. In fact, that statement is supported by Yhwach's description of Reio's role. Why would Tokinada's father even lie about that? In order to downplay Reio? That can't be it, because the father literally calls Reio the "linchpin" and "cornerstone" of the entire world, fully admitting that the universe would collapse without him.

The despicable lie was how Reio was shamefully forced into his role, not the description of the role itself. Is there any piece of evidence that points to Reio holding together the universe telekinetically with his raw Reiatsu like you seem to be implying? Because to my knowledge there are only two specific explanations of Reio's job, and both seem to be consistent with each other regarding his stabilization of the soul flow.

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@wanderez: Not a bad post, but I think there are some counter-arguments.

What does "would have returned to a universe" mean? It basically solidifies their size. If a universe it split in two, the two (or three if you want to count Hueco Mundo) realms would still be universe sized.

I don't understand. If a universe is split into separate dimensions, the sizes of each dimension wouldn't themselves be universal in size. Rather, if you add up all the dimensions in Bleach (WotL, SS, HM, Hell, Dangai, Garganta, etc.) then that combined dimension would be universe-sized like it was in the primordial age. I agree the worlds are clearly more than just planets though.

Soul King didn't simply split the old universe into the current realms. He also created a "boundary". Said boundary is the Garganta itself.

This is open to interpretation. "Boundary between life and death" doesn't necessarily refer to a physical barrier, but a conceptual difference between the two states of being. In the same way that Aizen always talked about the "boundary between Hollows and Shinigami."

Yhwach was stated in both the manga and the novel that he'll destroy the Garganta.

There's a difference between the Garganta being destroyed as a consequence of Yhwach's actions, and Yhwach personally busting the Garganta with raw power. Two of your pieces of evidence simply acknowledge that the universe would've returned to primordial soup due to Yhwach, and one is Ganju stating that the Garganta would be destroyed as a result of Yhwach's actions.

How do we know that said "boundary" is the Garganta? Well, there are a couple ways to confirm this statement

There are some things that make this interpretation questionable.

1) Neither Yhwach or anyone else references the Garganta by name as a target for his destruction, which is a little weird if that was really Yhwach's goal.

2) Multiple quotes refer vaguely to the "boundaries" between worlds being destroyed, not naming the Garganta.

"Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared"

"The extended earthquake had happened during the war between the Soul Reapers and the Quincies, when the boundaries between the Soul Society, the World of the Living, and Hueco Mundo had almost been destroyed"

It's a little shaky for these quotes to be referring to the Garganta, when often times they say "boundaries" (plural and lowercase). Normally they'd just namedrop the Garganta if that's what they were talking about. Especially when the Garganta has never been called by the "boundary" as a signifier before. The boundaries again may not be a physical, named structure; they could just symbolize the separation between the worlds.

Soul King was stated to be "stabilizing the realms, where massive numbers of konpaku pass through". This hardly means he stabilizes them through the flow itself, that's basic reading comprehension.

Eh, Yhwach says: "Reio was created to stabilize the Soul Society, where massive numbers of souls pass through!" There is absolutely no reason to mention the flow of souls as context for Reio's purpose of stabilizing SS, if it's supposedly unconnected. The reason Reio stabilizes SS and not some other random structure, would be specifically because of the high volume of souls through that area. The author didn't give that extra context for it to just be ignored as unrelated, useless information.

No Caption Provided

Neither was Yhwach ever stated to be destroying the realms using said flow. He was in fact stated to be using his own power.

Yhwach was never stated to be using raw power to destroy the realms either, so this isn't exactly a point in your favor. Regardless, control over the soul flow and the consequent stabilization of the worlds could be considered "power" in and of itself.

If Soul King is maintaining said flow of konpaku, why do Shinigami have to intervene?

This isn't really a contradiction. A severe enough imbalance of souls could simply put too much strain on Reio's ability to maintain stability with the flow. Reio is essentially a corpse with no consciousness after all.

Don't you think it's curious that the imbalance of souls caused by the Quincies was going to lead to a universal collapse in a similar fashion to the death of Reio? Compare the explanations given by Urahara and Kajomaru about the soul imbalance, to explanations given about Reio's death or Yhwach's goal. The fact that a soul imbalance and the death of one who's suggested to stabilize soul flow both lead to the same result (universal collapse as boundaries are destroyed and worlds spill into one another) is interesting.

The reason why? Well, none of this is true. In fact, it's all a lie:

Tokinada's father lied about there being no history before Reio, and concealed the circumstances of Reio's coronation. When Tokinada finds out the truth about his ancestors betraying, sealing, and mutilating Reio, that's when he confirms his suspicion.

It's never implied that the "lie" was Reio controlling the universal flow of souls. In fact, that statement is supported by Yhwach's description of Reio's role. Why would Tokinada's father even lie about that? In order to downplay Reio? That can't be it, because the father literally calls Reio the "linchpin" and "cornerstone" of the entire world, fully admitting that the universe would collapse without him.

The despicable lie was how Reio was shamefully forced into his role, not the description of the role itself. Is there any piece of evidence that points to Reio holding together the universe telekinetically with his raw Reiatsu like you seem to be implying? Because to my knowledge there are only two specific explanations of Reio's job, and both seem to be consistent with each other regarding his stabilization of the soul flow.

Well said, but they know this already. They simply choose to discard it in favour of their opinions.

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Wanderez

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#11  Edited By Wanderez
@number3561 said:

@wanderez:

I don't understand. If a universe is split into separate dimensions, the sizes of each dimension wouldn't themselves be universal in size. Rather, if you add up all the dimensions in Bleach (WotL, SS, HM, Hell, Dangai, Garganta, etc.) then that combined dimension would be universe-sized like it was in the primordial age. I agree the worlds are clearly more than just planets though.

This is wrong. It is explicitly stated that the three realms (that being Soul Society, World of the Living and Hueco Mundo) are a part of the old universe. Hell already existed prior to Soul King coming to existence. The rest was created separately.

This is open to interpretation. "Boundary between life and death" doesn't necessarily refer to a physical barrier, but a conceptual difference between the two states of being. In the same way that Aizen always talked about the "boundary between Hollows and Shinigami."

I understand your concerns, however that is clearly not the case, because in this case there is in fact a boundary between both worlds. Life is World of the Living and death is Soul Society. Your logic would apply if Soul King didn't split the universe and only created the concepts of life and death. Aizen's quote is something completely different.

There's a difference between the Garganta being destroyed as a consequence of Yhwach's actions, and Yhwach personally busting the Garganta with raw power. Two of your pieces of evidence simply acknowledge that the universe would've returned to primordial soup due to Yhwach, and one is Ganju stating that the Garganta would be destroyed as a result of Yhwach's actions.

Both are the same. Both novel and manga mention that the Garganta will be gone alongside the realms.

There are some things that make this interpretation questionable.

1) Neither Yhwach or anyone else references the Garganta by name as a target for his destruction, which is a little weird if that was really Yhwach's goal.

2) Multiple quotes refer vaguely to the "boundaries" between worlds being destroyed, not naming the Garganta.

"Had he not defeated Yhwach, the boundaries between the three worlds would have disappeared"

"The extended earthquake had happened during the war between the Soul Reapers and the Quincies, when the boundaries between the Soul Society, the World of the Living, and Hueco Mundo had almost been destroyed"

It's a little shaky for these quotes to be referring to the Garganta, when often times they say "boundaries" (plural and lowercase). Normally they'd just namedrop the Garganta if that's what they were talking about. Especially when the Garganta has never been called by the "boundary" as a signifier before. The boundaries again may not be a physical, named structure; they could just symbolize the separation between the worlds.

1) Kubo has emphasized on this type of writing in an interview. He openly said he likes to make the reader think and look between the lines. This is nothing new to Bleach as a series. While this is in fact a valid point, it really doesn't contradict multiple other statements and the fact that Yhwach's goal really wasn't to destroy the Garganta. He wanted to combine the realms. The destruction of the Garganta would technically be subsequent goal, in a way. But this is just me trying to deduce the reason why it was not mentioned directly outside of Ganju. Like I said, it matters not.

2) I'd like to quote this: Kubo has emphasized on this type of writing in an interview. He openly said he likes to make the reader think and look between the lines. This is nothing new to Bleach as a series. Occam's Razor comes into play here. And for that matter I simply suggest re-reading my points about the Garganta. As for the rest of your points, like the "boundaries" one, that's simply looking too much into things. I could bring in the raws if you'd like, but I really don't think something like this is worth it.

Eh, Yhwach says: "Reio was created to stabilize the Soul Society, where massive numbers of souls pass through!" There is absolutely no reason to mention the flow of souls as context for Reio's purpose of stabilizing SS, if it's supposedly unconnected. The reason Reio stabilizes SS and not some other random structure, would be specifically because of the high volume of souls through that area. The author didn't give that extra context for it to just be ignored as unrelated, useless information.

Yhwach was never stated to be using raw power to destroy the realms either, so this isn't exactly a point in your favor. Regardless, control over the soul flow and the consequent stabilization of the worlds could be considered "power" in and of itself.

This doesn't really divert from what I said. Soul King does not regulate the konpaku that pass through, he's regulating the Soul Society itself, where they pass through.

Yhwach literally says that everyone will bow before his power as his Reiatsu started gushing out of the ground and was about to destroy the realms.

This isn't really a contradiction. A severe enough imbalance of souls could simply put too much strain on Reio's ability to maintain stability with the flow. Reio is essentially a corpse with no consciousness after all.

This was never even implied. Even when severe situations like the extinction of all Hollows were a thing. Your next sentence actually suggests that Soul King, because he has no consciousness, does not regulate the flow of konpaku, because that'd require certain amount of actions in order to be achieved. Similarly to what Shinigami do. Shinigami are the ones who send souls to Soul Society or Hell.

Don't you think it's curious that the imbalance of souls caused by the Quincies was going to lead to a universal collapse in a similar fashion to the death of Reio? Compare the explanations given by Urahara and Kajomaru about the soul imbalance, to explanations given about Reio's death or Yhwach's goal. The fact that a soul imbalance and the death of one who's suggested to stabilize soul flow both lead to the same result (universal collapse as boundaries are destroyed and worlds spill into one another) is interesting.

I think you're confused. This is just another condition for the destruction of the realms. Ichibei literally says that if he kills Grimmjow could destroy the balance of konpaku. Yhwach's corpse was literally used as fuel, the Shinigami stored his Reiatsu and used it to prevent the realms from collapsing.

Tokinada's father lied about there being no history before Reio, and concealed the circumstances of Reio's coronation. When Tokinada finds out the truth about his ancestors betraying, sealing, and mutilating Reio, that's when he confirms his suspicion.

It's never implied that the "lie" was Reio controlling the universal flow of souls. In fact, that statement is supported by Yhwach's description of Reio's role. Why would Tokinada's father even lie about that? In order to downplay Reio? That can't be it, because the father literally calls Reio the "linchpin" and "cornerstone" of the entire world, fully admitting that the universe would collapse without him.

The despicable lie was how Reio was shamefully forced into his role, not the description of the role itself. Is there any piece of evidence that points to Reio holding together the universe telekinetically with his raw Reiatsu like you seem to be implying? Because to my knowledge there are only two specific explanations of Reio's job, and both seem to be consistent with each other regarding his stabilization of the soul flow.

And it's never implied that the lie is not Soul King controlling the flow of konpaku. Doesn't matter what the lie is specifically, the person telling it is a liar, therefore any evidence from them is doubtful to begin with. Soul King holding the realms with Reiatsu alone is nothing new...

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Either way, thank you for stopping by and reading through my blog. I hope we get to "see" each other again.

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Number3561

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#12  Edited By Number3561

@wanderez:

This is wrong. It is explicitly stated that the three realms (that being Soul Society, World of the Living and Hueco Mundo) are a part of the old universe. Hell already existed prior to Soul King coming to existence.

The opposite is the case actually. All those worlds were created to form the new universe by the five clans using Reio's power. See the novel passages above. Prior to that, the universe was a primordial soup with no separate dimensions, with Reishi and Kishi mixed, life and death mixed, Hollows and Wholes mixed, etc. Those realms didn't exist; their foundations were explicitly created after the separation of the old universe. Look at the first image you linked in your original post. It directly states that the Hisagi's Bankai may have resembled the old universe, when Soul Society hadn't been born yet.

I understand your concerns, however that is clearly not the case, because in this case there is in fact a boundary between both worlds. Life is World of the Living and death is Soul Society. Your logic would apply if Soul King didn't split the universe and only created the concepts of life and death. Aizen's quote is something completely different.

If that's what you're arguing, that boundary would be the Dangai. It's the Dangai that's been called the boundary between the WotL and SS. But just because there is a physical boundary between life and death doesn't mean the passage couldn't be referring to the conceptual boundary between the two. And it's not like dead beings can't exist in the WotL or vice versa. The "boundary between life and death" is more than just a physical separation.

That's why Aizen's quote is relevant; a boundary between two states of existence isn't always referring to a physical structure. That's why your argument that Reio created the Garganta just based on him creating a "boundary between life and death" is very open to interpretation.

Both are the same. Both novel and manga mention that the Garganta will be gone alongside the realms.

I'd argue there's a massive difference between the two. The Garganta being destroyed as a consequences of the cosmology destabilizing versus destroying the Garganta by your own raw power are not the same feat. Imagine you want to destroy a skyscraper and there are two ways:

1) Destroy one or two small support beams on the first floor, causing the entire building to destabilize and come crashing down, thereby destroying it.

2) Vaporize the entire building instantly with an energy attack.

These two feats clearly differ. If Yhwach was only going to collapse the Garganta via a chain reaction from destabilizing the cosmology, that is not on the same level as Yhwach himself busting the Garganta with raw power. The latter would be a true busting feat, the former wouldn't.

He openly said he likes to make the reader think and look between the lines. This is nothing new to Bleach as a series

The problem with this logic is that anyone could simply apply their own headcanon to vague statements, and then claim that it is the author's intent because Kubo wants you to read between the lines. It's not a strong argument, honestly. The novels were written by Narita anyway, right?

You even acknowledge that Yhwach wasn't going to bust the Garganta himself, but rather it would be destroyed as a side effect of Yhwach's cosmology restructure. So I'm not sure how that supports universal Yhwach when the structure in question isn't even being directly busted by him.

This is nothing new to Bleach as a series. Occam's Razor comes into play here.

It's not an issue of Occam's Razor though. There's just little evidence that "boundaries" refers to the Garganta. It's not like Kubo has a history of being vague about his dimensions. Every other time, when Kubo wants to refer to the Garganta he writes "Garganta." He's never refused to name a dimension when it's relevant, yet suddenly he's advising Narita to ambiguously call the Garganta "boundaries" despite never doing so before? Seems like a stretch.

This doesn't really divert from what I said. Soul King does not regulate the konpaku that pass through, he's regulating the Soul Society itself, where they pass through.

Yhwach literally says that everyone will bow before his power as his Reiatsu started gushing out of the ground and was about to destroy the realms.

But why did Yhwach mention "where massive numbers of souls pass through"? He mentioned it because it was relevant to the subject. You talked about how Kubo wants us to read between the lines. So what should we take away from Yhwach mentioning the flow of souls as context for Reio stabilizing SS? Yhwach heavily suggests that Reio was created to stabilize SS because the large soul flow through SS requires stabilization.

Yhwach saying the realms would be destroyed due to his power is still ambiguous, because at that point Yhwach was the only thing stabilizing the world in the first place. He could literally have destroyed the realms just by removing himself as a stabilizing force. His Reiatsu was engulfing the Seireitei sure, but it's a huge leap from that to "his Reiatsu was busting the entire universe."

This was never even implied. Even when severe situations like the extinction of all Hollows were a thing. Your next sentence actually suggests that Soul King, because he has no consciousness, does not regulate the flow of konpaku, because that'd require certain amount of actions in order to be achieved.

I don't understand. There's a difference between necessary and sufficient. Reio may be necessary to maintain the stability of the universe via the soul flow, but he may not be sufficient to maintain stability if a significant imbalance of souls also exists. That's why pointing to the existence of Shinigami doesn't really debunk Reio stabilizing the flow. Reio being unconscious doesn't mean he can't stabilize the flow of souls either; his power could be doing it passively, hence why a major soul imbalance could tip the scales.

Also, your interpretation of Reio telekinetically holding together the universe with his raw Reiatsu runs into the same exact problems. If Reio can singlehandedly hold together the universe, then why do Shinigami need to balance souls on top of that to avoid universal collapse? If Reio is unconscious, how does he hold together the universe which would require action? Your interpretation runs into the same issues you're pointing out for the other side.

I think you're confused. This is just another condition for the destruction of the realms. Ichibei literally says that if he kills Grimmjow could destroy the balance of konpaku. Yhwach's corpse was literally used as fuel, the Shinigami stored his Reiatsu and used it to prevent the realms from collapsing.

I understand. I was just pointing out how it's interesting that a soul imbalance leads to the same type of universal collapse as Reio's death. This suggests that Reio's role and and the soul balance are connected somehow, since the loss of either one leads to the same sequence of events and the same type of universal collapse. It supports the idea that Reio is involved with the soul flow.

And it's never implied that the lie is not Soul King controlling the flow of konpaku. Doesn't matter what the lie is specifically, the person telling it is a liar, therefore any evidence from them is doubtful to begin with

Not exactly. Characters like Urahara or Gin have held back information or outright lied far more severely than Tokinada's father, yet I'm sure you consider many of their statements as canonical facts. You don't just label them as liars and reject all information they provide.

The only thing Tokinada's father is confirmed to have lied about is no history before Reio, and his clan's betrayal of Reio. And we only know he lied about this because we get confirmation of the true story from Tokinada and Ichibei. On the other hand, Reio stabilizing the universal soul flow was never challenged or contradicted once in the story. In fact, it lines up perfectly with Yhwach's statement about Reio needing to stabilize SS due to the large soul flow there.

If you want to argue the father still lied, despite that statement never being contradicted, then at least explain his motive. Why lie about that? There's nothing to gain. He had good reason to lie about the betrayal of Reio: the shame and guilt of his clan. But he had no motive to lie about Reio's role; on the contrary he hypes up Reio massively when talking to his son. And you'll notice the father only becomes nervous and pale when Tokinada asks about the time before Reio, not when telling his son about Reio's role with the universal flow.

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I'm not denying that stabilizing the worlds requires a large amount of spiritual power. But this doesn't prove that Reio uses that large spiritual power to telekinetically hold the universe together. That large spiritual power may just be necessary to stabilize the flow of souls (which seems more clearly supported by two statements).

It was good talking to you, and see you around!

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If this is about the "lowballing", then you it seems you are missing the bigger picture. Most of the complaints (mine included) towards "universal" Yhwach/Soul King that stems from the "Reiatsu correlates to physicals argument".

In the end, the argument boils down to: is Yhwach's strength universal? How about his energy blasts?

Are these attacks universal?

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Since they come from Yhwach's Reiatsu, the same universal Reiatsu? And Reiatsu correlates to physicals and overall AP?

I'm not baiting with these, I geniunly want an answer, but it seems no Bleach debater can answer it for me.

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Pr03

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#14  Edited By Pr03

That's just high level wanking of cosmology.

World of living being infinite in size doesn't make the Earth universal.

Same for Soul Society and Hueco Mundo, they are just a tiny portion of the infinite space where souls live.

Bleach cosmology consists of 5 dimensions- Living world, Soul Society, Hueco Mundo, Hell and Gargananta(void).

1. Living world is same as our world (planetory)

Its not Dragon Ball where Goku goes from one universe to another and fight. Dragon ball cosmology can be considered Multiversal, but Big 3 cosmology- definitely not. They are outside of human/souls reach.

EDIT- living world, or any dimension, is still infinite sized no matter the verse, but its considered planetory for the sake of power scaling!!

2. Soul Society is small country size.

That's probably the estimation considering Rukongai (where normal souls live) is divided into 320 districts. Acc. to Japan, List of districts of the House of Representatives of Japan - Wikipedia

We have to measure size of a district acc to Japan!!

Whole Japan country consists of 289 districts, and Japan's size is 377,975 km sq.

Unitary method, Rukongai's size = 418,619 km sq

Acc. to Yoruichi, this is the map-

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By calculation- Sereitei's size is 82,690 km sq.

Making the whole Soul Society's size = 418,619 + 82,690 = 501,609 sq km.

This is below average country size.

3. Hueco Mundo- planetory (same as living world, assumption)

4. Hell, don't know.

5. Gargananta- its a void

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Flameburn146

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Nice. Very detailed and informative.

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UniversalNaruto

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#16  Edited By UniversalNaruto

Hill Sized Universes? Astounding.

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Morningstar999

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^^^Should touch grass.

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Undre

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#19  Edited By Undre

@pr03: it's not a true void its chaos of reshi and their also exists smaller dimensions called the VOS in the gargnata these dimensions are shown to be at least star size

Ss can refer to the dimension or the planet it depends on the context

I

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@morningstar999 said:

^^^Should touch grass.

Loading Video...

Hope this helps =)

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Pr03

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#22  Edited By Pr03

@undre:

(image on ch 625)

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They are not star-sized.

Because Dangai(the path which connects world of living and soul society) itself is bigger than Kyogoku. And Dangai is like town sized.

Dangai town sized based on speculation that, even someone like Orihime was able to cross it within 4 minutes. And even I can run faster than Orihime.

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Undre

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@pr03: you gotta be trolling if the dangai is town size then the ss and the wol would be large town size. As they are 5× bigger on the map also. When they used the dangai they appeared close to the exit not from the beginning.

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@pr03: The Dangai being town sized due to the speed it’s traversed is nonsense.

The border between the worlds isn’t connected like that in the photo, otherwise to enter the Dangai they’d only be one entry point, and one exit. It’s just a illustration to show they are connected by a seperate dimensional space time (Dangai).

The Dangai AND the Garganta can be accessed from inside Seireitei to all the way up in the Soul Palace. They aren’t connected to a ‘border’ it’s a just a form of dimensional travel.

The Kyogoku aren’t star sized, they are dimensions of random sizes.

Your lack of understanding of the Bleach verse leads your opinion to be misinformed.

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NinjaRizer

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@pr03: I just have one question to you, The galaxies and stars that are pictured in SS, HM and The Human Realm, as well as the Muken (infinite plane), are they contained by the Dangai or not?

If yes, the Garganta is universe sized at a minimum.

If they aren’t, where does the Garganta start?

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Pr03

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@ninjarizer: then what do you think Dangai's size should be?

Yes, I know the enter/exit gates can be opened from literally anywhere, but the path is still the same no matter the enter/exit gate locations.

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Does Dangai not seem town size to you according to above image? ^^ This is the exact panel where Ichigo just entered the gate, and the exit gate is already in sight. Even town size is a bit of a wank.

Even someone like Chad or Orihime crossed it within 4 mins on their "foot". And as I said, I myself run faster than Orihime lol.

@pr03: I just have one question to you, The galaxies and stars that are pictured in SS, HM and The Human Realm, as well as the Muken (infinite plane), are they contained by the Dangai or not?

If yes, the Garganta is universe sized at a minimum.

If they aren’t, where does the Garganta start?

I don't understand the question, but if you mean the gates of dangai can be opened from outer space, then SURE!! Like some alien from some other galaxy billion light years away from earth can open dangai gate and reach soul society within 4 mins, and vice versa on earth.

But its not possible in Bleach verse characters, the characters can't breath outerspace.

Garganta's just a void, so its size is infinite.

@undre said:

@pr03: you gotta be trolling if the dangai is town size then the ss and the wol would be large town size. As they are 5× bigger on the map also. When they used the dangai they appeared close to the exit not from the beginning.

Nooo, you read the map wrong.

This portion here-

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is only equivalent to this portion here-

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Undre

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@pr03: See also vos has sunlight which means a star is in it

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Pr03

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@undre said:
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@pr03: See also vos has sunlight which means a star is in it

Isn't this from movie called "memory of nobody" which is like non-cannon? I haven't watched any of bleach movies yet.

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NHLANHLA

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@pr03: the movie is Conan confirm by ichigo say he has seen the valley of scream before at that only happen in the movei memories of nobody and acknowledge by kubo

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NHLANHLA

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we where given the size of the by two people askin nakk le vaar and hidetomo kajomaro they both use the kanji "sekai" now this post address why the realm are not planet size so the the 2 possible meaning to "sekai is taking out which is world, society doesnt make sense for obvious reason leaving universe as the only option

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Pr03

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@nhlanhla: ok, then I agree with ya'all about star/galaxy level Kogyoku

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It makes more sense for the boundary to between the worlds to be the dangai rather than the Garganta.

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It makes more sense for the boundary to between the worlds to be the dangai rather than the Garganta.

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Yssuke

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@maskedsage: 🤔 true, but I’d say it’s Garganta. and reason is, the only reason Garganta was gonna collapse due to the destruction of ss and wol which would just be environmental destruction rather than Yhwach straight up busting the Garganta so he wouldn’t inherently scale to the feat. But well that’s just my interpretation to it, 😭 anyways, whatcha doing here mad?

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I agree.