Bleach speed feats

Here is a thread illustrating some of Bleach's speed feats, that occurred during TYBW and CFYOW, to place the high to top tiers of the verse at relativistic-FTL comfortably. Feel free to use these in any CaV's.

Scaling from Candice

Candice's casual attacks while restricted (power sealed) are low-end lightning speed. It is described in the novel that her reishi arrows, imbued with lightning, are far too slow, but are fast enough to be called lightning:

Ginjou barely sidesteps this, but this is obviously because he was completely caught off guard, and furthermore, Candice was restricted, and once she removes her limiter, instead of using slow reishi arrows, she uses geniune cloud to ground lightning, which Ginjou and Tsukishima manage to avoid during the heat of battle, These attacks are lightning speed:

We'll come back to this when we get to Grimmjow.

Pretty undeniable so far? Finally, Candice decides to use her final attack, Electrocution, which is said to surpass all-natural lightning in power, and also surpass all-natural lightning. This should be high-end lightning speed (relativistic):

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Tsukishima manages to react to this by sprouting a tree, which he inserted himself into.

Well, it only mentions power, it doesn't say speed!

This is obviously debunked if you delve into the context. The reason one can derive speed from this statement is that although Ginjou and Tsukishima were avoiding her reishi arrows and her natural cloud to ground lightning with their movement, they couldn't avoid her Electrocution and had to block it, which obviously indicates a speed increase. Therefore a speed increase can be derived from this statement rather easily, as opposed to just assuming just a power increase.

Lightning can reach up to speeds of 1/3rd the speed of light on an upward stroke:

the upward return stroke zips along at 100,000 kilometres a second—about one third of the speed of light.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/greatmomentsinscience/the-power-of-lightning/8222972

And since it isn't cloud to ground lightning, and surpasses all lightning, it should logically surpass this speed. Keep in mind this Candice was weaker than her TYBW arc counterpart.

Candice's strongest attacks, while weaker than her TYBW arc counterpart, are relativistic. Characters like Tsukishima and Ginjou, who are mid-tiers at best, can react to it.

Grimmjow's movement speed

Grimmjow is stated to move through Soul Society exactly like one of Candice's lightning bolts:

Let me establish that he is talking about her cloud to ground lightning, not her slow lightning imbued reishi arrows. Why? Ginjo calls Grimjoww fast.

That's it.

Relativistic Candice is also supported by this, the fact that Base Ginjo had no problem reacting to and blocking this level of speed, and was also described to be only the speed of a skilled Soul Reaper, means that it was casual and means that lightning speed Shunpo is not uncommon, as Grimmjow is far above a skilled Soul Reaper.

Skilled Soul Reapers were blitzed and almost one-shot by SS Arc Bankai Ichigo (Byakuya)

This movement speed will be used to illustrate the next section.

The distance between the Soul Palace and Seireitei

Now, using a stated travel speed for Shunpo, I'll do a lowballed calculation of the Soul Palace to Seireitei just to show you how easy it is to get the high-top tiers to several degrees FTL reactions.

Base Grimmjow is weaker than True Shikai Ichigo, therefore we know that lowballed, Ichigo's travel speed is faster than lightning. Again, this is a lowballed figure, and I'll illustrate why.

A stronger version of Candice was blitzed and statued by True Shikai Ichigo, even in her Vollstandig:

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He is far beyond her speed level and reaction time using Shunpo, to the point it would be fair to even use high-end lightning speed for Ichigo, but I'll only use lightning speed for Ichigo's travel speed. The speed of lightning can vary mostly in the range of 1.0-14×10⁵m/s, based on various studies. I'll actually be using 4.4×10⁵m/s (Mach 1294) as a mid-end for the cloud to ground lightning. The studies in question:

http://es.vaisala.com/Vaisala%20Documents/Scientific%20papers/2.Campos,%20Saba,%20Warner.pdf↑http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=D4862F763A4196979F07E07DA6B89E01?doi=10.1.1.589.8160&rep=rep1&type=pdf↑https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1412/1412.3537.pdf

Kirinji says it would take a week with his normal Shunpo. Ichigo says he would take half a day if he hurries, and the journey actually takes 9 hours and 15 minutes.

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There are two things we can assume here. One is that lightning speed is Ichigo's casual travel speed, which actually makes sense considering he's a god-tier of the verse (which means use lightning speed travel over one week), OR we can assume that Ichigo, when hurrying, is only as fast as Base Grimmjow (use 9 hours and 15 minutes)

To lowball even further, I'm going to assume that Ichigo when hurrying is only as fast as Base Grimmjow, and downplay his movement speed.

When these numbers are crunched the lowballed distance you get from the Soul Palace to Seireitei is 14,779,938 km.

This is 38 times the distance from the earth to the moon or about 10 times the diameter of the sun.

Well, be using this distance from now on. I must illustrate that I'm not trying to get an exact number figure doing this, just trying to demonstrate using canon sources how easily you can get Bleach high tiers to FTL speed, even while lowballing.

FTL Lasers

Onto Yhwach.

Yhwach's casual attack speed with Mimihagi absorbed crossed the distance between the Soul Palace and Seireitei before debris and dust fell:

Gallery

Now, back to lowballing. It takes far longer than 5 seconds for debris and dust to fall the distance it did, especially considering it was ejected downwards by the laser. Using 5 seconds for the time frame, what speed do you get?

10 times FTL.

This is an on-panel, light-speed feat no matter how much it is lowballed.

Why does this scale to True Shikai Ichigo?

Orihime was able to react to SK Yhwach's attacks, a form of Yhwach who is vastly stronger than the Mimihagi absorbed form, yet admitted that she couldn't keep up with Ichigo's movements at all:

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These attacks have no business being slower than the former attack, considering it was from a vastly stronger version of Yhwach.

This obviously means Ichigo's combat speed > Yhwach's Mimihagi laser beam.

This is very consistent actually, as mid-tiers like Candice who are weaker than their TYBW counterparts can already attack at relativistic speeds without Vollstandig, and Ichigo was blitzing Candice with her Vollstandig.

This only scales to the top and God tiers (Haschwalth, Uryu, Aizen, Gerard, Toshiro, SK Yhwach etc)

Hope this helps you understand where Bleach speed tiers are at EoS. Obviously, there are other feats that I could have mentioned, and I actually might add them into this thread later on. Feel free to post other Bleach speed feats, I welcome any arguments.

@ninjarizer: relativistic isn’t high end lightning speed, not even close.

And greater power of lightning ≠ greater speed of lightning

@epichotflame: Not sure if you read anything, but lightning can reach speeds of up to 1/3 of the speed of light on return strokes, I linked the corresponding Wikipedia article.

Again, unsure if you read anything but the context clearly indicates there was a speed increase. It’s not hard to draw a conclusion that if it also surpasses the power, it then also surpasses the speed. I’m not sure if you read the thread but I literally addressed this point because I knew it would be brought up, it’s an obvious rebuttal that is easy to counter. Candice being relativistic is also very consistent.

Anything else?

The Asuwhlen speed calc is relativistc even using free fall speed.

Free fall speed is 120mph

Would have took ichigo one week using normal shunpo. Instead we wil just he's free falling. So 1 week free falling

Their is 168 hours in a week and he was falling at a rate of 120mph. Which means the soul palace is 168×120= 20,160 miles

Took attacks like asuwhlen and yhwachs finger beam seconds to cross this distance. Which is about relativistic to sub+

You can't use the return stroke speed unless the feat explicitly uses the return stroke.

Secondly Candices arrow wasn't low end lightning it was "MUCH slower than actual lightning"

Again?

Yeah, going to echo a lot of what people have said here.

Candice's reishi arrows are of unknown speed. Calling them low-end lightning speed would be generous when they're verbatim said to be "much slower than an actual lightning bolt" (with actual lightning having a downward stroke of around Mach 300).

This is shown when Candice uses Electrocution and sends down a "genuine flash of lightning" (again, Mach 300). And here's what many don't realize: reacting to cloud-to-ground lightning in fiction can be less impressive than basic bullet-timing due to the distances involved.

Electrocution is faster than her arrows like you said, but that doesn't tell us much because her arrows are << the speed of lightning to begin with. And as others have said, the return stroke of lightning is irrelevant to 100% of lightning timing feats in fiction, because it's the speed of the flash that travels back up the ladder to the clouds after the "bolt" has already struck.

For Grimmjow, the novel said he "manipulated his body" like one of Candice's lightning bolts. This could easily be talking about the tortuous, jagged pattern of his movement rather than his literal speed. It's likely Grimmjow's travel speed isn't lightning speed, considering that would fodderize Gin's Bankai as early as the SS arc by your own scaling.

Don't feel like getting into the distance b/w Reiokyu and SS atm as it's been argued to death, but if the calc is based on the above statements then we already have a problem.

@coffie: @coffie: I can use the return stroke when it states that it surpasses all natural lighting, and It increased in speed. You might not be okay with this, but it’s perfectly reasonable to assume this.

Secondly, again I feel like it’s common with you lots to omit context. It said exactly this after the slow lightning statement:

‘the reishi head was quick enough that it could appropriately be said to be going at lightning speed’ so it’s slow lightning speed, hence low-end lightning speed.

You’ve done nothing here.

@ultimatesage: Get to debunking Mr Sage!

@ninjarizer: No it's not because the return stroke is a very specific thing.

It also literally tells you it's much slower than lightning you can't tell somone they're omitting context when that is verbatim on the screen.

Number explains it well.

@number3561: Not this time Numbers. it blatantly says this:

‘the reishi head was quick enough that it could appropriately be said to be going at lightning speed’

So it says it can be called lightning speed, APPROPRIATELY, but slow lightning speed, hence the low lightning speed. You can’t get a clearer explanation than this outside of actually stating a number my guy.

I’m literally calling it lightning speed because the text told me I can do so, yet you guys are blatantly ignoring the text. I urge you to read the novels.

Th genuine flash of lightning wasn’t Electrocution my guy. You gotta read the novel, please, I’ve even posted the scan. It’s CFYOW II, Chapter 7 and 8. Also you gotta use citations for the lightning speed, just as I have. Can’t just throw out Mach 300. And you gotta find multiple around the same range too.

Electrocution actually, to contrary belief, didn’t come from the clouds. It was thrown, and yet it surpassed all natural lighting in power AND was fast enough that it couldn’t be dodged, and has to be blocked instantly by a tree, that was stated to have grown AFTER it was fired.

The arrows are low end lightning speed unless you want to ignore the actual text, I cannot lie I don’t think that one is up for debate, it’s the clearest thing in this thread. She then uses Cloud to Ground lightning, and THEN she uses Electrocution. The return stroke applies to Electrocution because it surpasses all natural lightning, AND it’s thrown, therefore it makes sense to surpass the return stroke which is still natural lightning.

This argument at the bottom is semantics. If someone stated ‘he moved exactly like a bolt of lightning’ and I said well it could just apply to the erratic movement of his body, although true, I think it’s completely unreasonable to state considering the context. The fact that Ginjo called him fast when he was avoiding cloud to ground lightning attests to this fact, and it is a fact he was moving like lightning speed. And we’re talking about CFYOW Grimmjow btw, who would definitely fodderise Gin’s Bankai.

The distance between the Seireitei and Soul Society is astronomical regardless, and even though we have a direct statement of someone moving at lighting speed, being called fast by someone who has been dodging lightning, there are still contentions. Which is fine, but they just seem forced at this point -_-

@coffie: I’m going to ask you a question.

Does the text say it was still fast enough to be called lightning speed, appropriately? Yes or no.

And I’ve explained to him why it also refers to the upwards stroke. It doesn’t matter if it’s specific, it’s still natural lightning and Candice’s Electrocution surpassing all natural lightning means it can be argued as such.

@ninjarizer: I'll reply with a question, does the text say it's "much slower than lightning"? Yes or no?

@coffie: Yes it does. I’m going to type the entire text.

‘Although much slower than an actual lightning bolt, the reishi arrow head was quick enough that it could be appropriately said to be going at lightning speed’

Okay. The text says it’s appropriate to call it lightning speed, and you’re saying it isn’t appropriate, which is weird.

Secondly, even though it can be called lightning speed, it’s much slower that a lightning bolt, meaning it’s low end lightning speed, or the SLOWEST thing that can be called lightning speed.

How can you say it’s inappropriate for me to do something, that the text says is appropriate for me to do?

Ginjo states ‘that’s pretty slow for LIGHTNING’ attesting to the fact that it can still be called lightning, YET is slow, just as the text indicates. This one isn’t hard.

@ninjarizer: OK so nothing else needs to be discussed, you can't be "much" slower than Lightning and still be Lightning speed. It being called "Lighting Fast" is nothing more than a hyperbole, and before you complain about that word remember the novel proves they're slower than lightning.

@coffie: My guy, it literally says you can. It’s not light which as a fixed range, lightning has a range of speed, and since it said it’s appropriate to call it lightning speed, that’s what I’m doing.

The novel doesn’t prove they are slower than lightning, I urge you to reread the thread, Candice right after that uses ‘genuine lightning’ from cloud to ground. How can you possibly grasp that they are slower than lightning in this thread, when it’s literally shown than Ginjo and Tsukishima dodge her genuine cloud tho ground lighting?

Lightning hyperbole definitely doesn’t apply to scenarios where actual lightning is being used.

@ninjarizer: Yet it says "Much slower than Lightning"

Idk what else to tell you and an arrow is not literal lightning.

Interesting. Making a note to return here later.

What's there to debunk?0.0

Her attack(arrow) is clear out stated slower than lightning, end of story. The way Electrocution works already tells us that it does not abide by the criteria we use when setting a lightning based attack at standard lightning speed. Plus the other statements of it being stated below lightning speed.

@ultimatesage: You’re here saying end of story, but in all you’ve typed I don’t see a mic drop, you’ve just echoed what has already been addressed here already.

It does say it’s slower than a lightning bolt, but it’s fast enough for it to be APPROPRIATE to be called lightning speed. Well here I am, calling it lightning speed, just like the text indicated is appropriate for me to do. Do you follow this criteria in other aspects of your life?

For example, if you was going to a formal party, and you showed your proposed attire to the organiser. He says to you, ‘well it’s much from being formal, but it’s formal enough to the point it’s appropriate enough to call it formal’. Does this mean that it’s not appropriate, even though the organiser said it was? Are you gonna argue with the organiser and say ‘no it’s not formal, even though you said it’s appropriate enough to call it as such!’ Everyone would look at you with raised eyebrows, and it would be followed with hysterical laughter.

I’m calling it lightning speed because the text said I could. You’re saying I can’t, meaning you’re going against the actual text, which is hilarious.

The issue is i’m taking both passages into account: slower than a lightning bolt, but can be called lightning speed (low end lightning speed), yet you’re only taking the former statement into account. That, my friend, is a no no.

There are no other statements saying it’s below lightning speed, rather indicating it’s just slow lighting.

Eletrocution abides by the criterion because its faster than her cloud to ground lightning which was avoided by Ginjo and Tsukishima already, supporting me, and not you.

I suggest you read the actual passage (CFYOW II, chapters 7 and 8) and understand it better, because clearly the thread doesn’t make it clear enough for you.

@ultimatesage: It bluntly says slower than lightning, yet it says it can still be called lightning speed, again you’re only taking on one part of the statement. You do address it further down though, which I’ll get to.

You have a habit of not actually answering questions, as if it’s all beneath you, but in reality you’re not actually saying anything. You’ll realise it’s poor debate practice one day if we CaV, and i’d hope you’d stop it by then.

Again, with your trademark facepalm, yet you actually didn’t explain what difference it creates, in fact you didn’t even really say anything. I’m going to quote the text, then i’ll quote what I said:

Text says: ‘Although much slower than an actual lightning bolt’

I said: ‘well it’s much from being formal’

Text says: ‘the reishi arrow head was quick enough that it could be appropriately said to be going at lightning speed’

I said: ‘but it’s formal enough to the point it’s appropriate enough to call it formal’

I hope you can point out the glaring and obvious difference in my paraphrasing, hopefully topped off by another facepalm, likely after a lacklustre and non explanation.

The text doesn’t disagree with me, rather I’m taking in both aspects while you’re only appreciating one. I’m calling it lightning speed like the text says is appropriate for me to do so. Why would I be a fool and take your word for it, when I can just do what the text says I should?

The lighting I would use the lowest end lighting speed possible. I also don’t understand where this Mach 300 nonsense is coming from, what studies were this derived from, there’s no citations from you or anyone in this thread. It doesn’t need a number, because the speed is irrelevant anyway considering I’ve literally showed she had a limiter imposed on her.

I’m assuming the lighting they are taking about is standard lighting speed, Candice’a arrows while limited are slower low ends lighting speed, because while slower than lighting, they can still be called lighting speed. So i’m calling it lighting speed, but just the slowest possible lighting. This is entirely reasonable, and you’re doing nothing here.

Electrocution is not only faster than her lighting arrows, it’s also faster than her genuine cloud to ground lighting, which if you read the thread or the novel she used during the fight, this lighting in question was dodged, but Electrocution couldn’t be dodged and had to be blocked. It’s very clear.

UltimateSage, swallow your pride for once and actually read the passage. I’m not being facetious here at least, I actually want you to read it so you understand the context better and stop saying blatantly false things.

@ninjarizerMy problem is with the FTL beam attacks. The reason you get FTL is by scaling off of Ichigo's shunpo and the fact that it was hundreds of times faster than that, and yet you are claiming that Ichigo scales to attacks faster than the beams that are hundreds of times faster than him when he's going massively FTE to characters on due to using shunpo at its highest. The beam that Yhawch shot at soul society did very little actual damage and were immediately reiatsu crushed by aizen who was sealed in a chair. The trade-off for it being that fast is probably the fact that it can only work on fodders, in my opinion.

@ninjarizer:

‘the reishi head was quick enough that it could appropriately be said to be going at lightning speed’

So it says it can be called lightning speed, APPROPRIATELY, but slow lightning speed, hence the low lightning speed. You can’t get a clearer explanation than this outside of actually stating a number my guy.

I didn't ignore it because it's clearly figurative. It's "appropriate" to refer to the arrow as lightning-speed due to its speed being nearly too great for Ginjo to dodge. Anything that blitzes someone can "appropriately" be called lightning fast in a figurative sense. Especially in this case when the attack in question was electricity-themed. But its speed is not on par with literal lightning, not even close. The author even tries to make this blatantly clear by prefacing the statement with "though it was much slower than an actual lightning bolt" to avoid the exact misconception you're arguing for. I have no clue how you think we're the ones ignoring text here.

Th genuine flash of lightning wasn’t Electrocution my guy. You gotta read the novel, please, I’ve even posted the scan. It’s CFYOW II, Chapter 7 and 8.

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Brother what. It's clearly Electrocution. The novel spells it out.

Also you gotta use citations for the lightning speed, just as I have. Can’t just throw out Mach 300.

Here you go.

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1985JGR....90.8136T/abstract

She then uses Cloud to Ground lightning, and THEN she uses Electrocution.

The cloud-to-ground lightning was Electrocution:

1) Candice sends a small bolt of lightning into the sky, which strikes the ground as a "genuine flash of lightning"

2) The narration says Candice lost her temper when her arrow was blocked and that she opted to hit her target with a massive strike of lightning, this being the genuine flash. The next sentence literally says "though its power had decayed" she "still hit them [the thing that hit them was the genuine flash] with her Electrocution force, which surpassed the power of natural lightning."

3) Candice comments that Tsukishima's tree hadn't been there "just before she had unleashed her Electrocution." This straight up confirms that the genuine flash was Electrocution.

4) Later, Candice shoots successive lightning arrows and then "drove in with Electrocution, the same attack she used against Ginjo and the others earlier." Once again confirming that the genuine flash that struck Ginjo's group was Electrocution.

The return stroke applies to Electrocution because it surpasses all natural lightning

The return stroke has zilch to do with the speed of lightning striking the ground. It's the speed of the huge bright flash traveling back up after the lightning has already struck. It's quite literally irrelevant for all lightning timing feats in fiction. You haven't even provided evidence that her Electrocution is beyond Mach 300, let alone 1/3 SoL.

This argument at the bottom is semantics. If someone stated ‘he moved exactly like a bolt of lightning’ and I said well it could just apply to the erratic movement of his body, although true, I think it’s completely unreasonable to state considering the context. The fact that Ginjo called him fast when he was avoiding cloud to ground lightning attests to this fact, and it is a fact he was moving like lightning speed.

The argument is weakened by the fact that the "manipulation" of Grimmjow's body is being compared in this case, rather than the speed of it. If a diver manipulates her body exactly like a cannonball, is that necessarily a speed comparison? Ginjo calling Grimmjow fast doesn't tell us much, because he also called Candice's reishi arrows fast (which are canonically much slower than lightning).

And we’re talking about CFYOW Grimmjow btw, who would definitely fodderise Gin’s Bankai.

I doubt that really.

Also in the novel scan you posted, Grimmjow's speed is compared to "a skilled Shinigami's shunpo," which you relate to SS arc Byakuya and Ichigo. I hope I don't need to explain why Gin's Bankai statues that level of speed.

Still ichigo gets blitz by naruto lol

I personally agree with the lighting stuff since mid-tiers being relativistic isn't much of a problem since I have high tiers and God tiers as FTL.

@number3561: It's a shame you don't use discord.

@imaginaryidjit said:

Yeah he does, because combat speed is different to travel speed.

The trade-off for it being that fast is probably the fact that it can only work on fodders, in my opinion.

So the speed only works on fodders, but when he attacks higher tiers his beams are slower? I think that's a bit baseless my guy.

He was most likely going shunpo, considering the fact that he was going his absolute fastest and Kirinji mentioned that Ichigo using shunpo would take him a week despite him being accidentally blitzed by Ichigo right before and the fact that regular shunpos go faster than the eyesight to the person using them. I'm not saying his beams are slower when using it on high tiers, I'm saying that Yhawch's super fast attack was very fodder itself and wasn't able to break Seireitei's barrier despite Gremmy being able to casually do so. It isn't the same attack that he used against anyone, really, and I'm saying that it doesn't scale in speed to his other attacks since it clearly doesn't scale in strength to them.

@number3561:

I didn't ignore it because it's clearly figurative. It's "appropriate" to refer to the arrow as lightning-speed due to its speed being nearly too great for Ginjo to dodge.

Ginjo was caught off guard, but I see the point.

Anything that blitzes someone can "appropriately" be called lightning fast in a figurative sense. Especially in this case when the attack in question was electricity-themed. But its speed is not on par with literal lightning, not even close. The author even tries to make this blatantly clear by prefacing the statement with "though it was much slower than an actual lightning bolt" to avoid the exact misconception you're arguing for. I have no clue how you think we're the ones ignoring text here.

I see your point. However, the reason why I am steadfast in my interpretation is because of what Giriko said:

He almost seemed to explain why the arrow, described as lightning but appeared slower than an actual lightning bolt, but I digress. @coffie and @ultimatesage also have the same sentiments and expressed this to me on discord. I'm willing to accept this as an interpretation, but this part is actually wildly irrelevant, and the next part will prove relevant considering what you've pointed out to me.

The cloud-to-ground lightning was Electrocution:

1) Candice sends a small bolt of lightning into the sky, which strikes the ground as a "genuine flash of lightning"

2) The narration says Candice lost her temper when her arrow was blocked and that she opted to hit her target with a massive strike of lightning, this being the genuine flash. The next sentence literally says "though its power had decayed" she "still hit them [the thing that hit them was the genuine flash] with her Electrocution force, which surpassed the power of natural lightning."

3) Candice comments that Tsukishima's tree hadn't been there "just before she had unleashed her Electrocution." This straight up confirms that the genuine flash was Electrocution.

4) Later, Candice shoots successive lightning arrows and then "drove in with Electrocution, the same attack she used against Ginjo and the others earlier." Once again confirming that the genuine flash that struck Ginjo's group was Electrocution.

You're actually right here, and I admit I read it wrong, but I'll explain why I did. The implications for the cloud to ground lightning being Electrocution actually make Grimmjow far faster than I initially thought.

The return stroke has zilch to do with the speed of lightning striking the ground. It's the speed of the huge bright flash traveling back up after the lightning has already struck. It's quite literally irrelevant for all lightning timing feats in fiction. You haven't even provided evidence that her Electrocution is beyond Mach 300, let alone 1/3 SoL.

Considering the circumstances, I don't mind conceding this :) I'll provide evidence that her Electrocution is faster than Mach 300 though, and I find it hilarious how you guys still limit it to the lowest end lightning speed.

The argument is weakened by the fact that the "manipulation" of Grimmjow's body is being compared in this case, rather than the speed of it. If a diver manipulates her body exactly like a cannonball, is that necessarily a speed comparison? Ginjo calling Grimmjow fast doesn't tell us much, because he also called Candice's reishi arrows fast (which are canonically much slower than lightning).

Here is where I entirely disagree and still think you're arguing via semantics. The passage, although indicating the erratic movement of his body, is still a direct comparison to Candice's Electrocution, the fact that Ginjou calls him fast, it's compared to a predator rushing into the savannah after spotting its prey, which logically should be in a bullrush towards it's prey.

I doubt that really.

Do you have any evidence Gin's Bankai would be relevant in this arc?

Also in the novel scan you posted, Grimmjow's speed is compared to "a skilled Shinigami's shunpo," which you relate to SS arc Byakuya and Ichigo. I hope I don't need to explain why Gin's Bankai statues that level of speed.

This is why I don't bring up speed feats that are prior Gin's Bankai, because this argument is also used.

I'll be making some revisions later. But the FTL top tiers have yet to be addressed directly, although inadvertently through Grimmjow's speed.

@seb178: Don't derail lmao, Naruto is not involved here.

He was most likely going shunpo, considering the fact that he was going his absolute fastest and Kirinji mentioned that Ichigo using shunpo would take him a week despite him being accidentally blitzed by Ichigo right before and the fact that regular shunpos go faster than the eyesight to the person using them.

His combat speed is still hilariously higher.

I'm not saying his beams are slower when using it on high tiers, I'm saying that Yhawch's super fast attack was very fodder itself and wasn't able to break Seireitei's barrier despite Gremmy being able to casually do so.

He wasn't trying to break the barrier, he was just trying to envelop it in a shroud.

It isn't the same attack that he used against anyone, really, and I'm saying that it doesn't scale in speed to his other attacks since it clearly doesn't scale in strength to them.

So you think SK Yhwach's attacks are less than that speed, despite being far far far stronger? Based on the fact it had a different motive (covering SS in a shroud)? I don't think so. This argument can be used to put down speed for a lot of things, but this isn't one of them.

Thats... not how that works. Shunpo consistently makes the user go faster than they usually do to the point that they can go FTE to peer and superior opponents. Ichigo was getting rekt by Grimmjow in their first fight but he still went FTE to him using shunpo. He cannot go faster than what he did, especially consdiering he was explicitly going as fast as he could using his shunpo.

So his beam isn't even an attack, and therefore still can't be scaled to his other attacks

Meh, maybe not Soul King Yhawch when he is serious and using his sword. But Yhawch when he's explicitly holding back (which he was against base Ichigo) is probably slower

@imaginaryidjit:

Thats... not how that works. Shunpo consistently makes the user go faster than they usually do to the point that they can go FTE to peer and superior opponents. Ichigo was getting rekt by Grimmjow in their first fight but he still went FTE to him using shunpo. He cannot go faster than what he did, especially consdiering he was explicitly going as fast as he could using his shunpo.

Combat and reaction speed have been shown to be hilariously above Shunpo. SS Arc Bankai Ichigo's combat speed from deflecting 100 million petals in a few seconds, is absurd, to the point that it's almost an outlier. Same with Uryu's perception speed (3 million cycles a second). Ichigo's travel speed with Shunpo may be capped at some level, but weaker characters like Hikone have shown absurd levels of Shunpo in the novels, to the point they can statue people from up in the sky where they appear like a dot, making it seem like time had stopped, which is a relativistic-LS feat considering the distance he did it from.

So his beam isn't even an attack, and therefore still can't be scaled to his other attacks

The beam is an attack. It's literally using his black energy, the same energy he always uses, he used it to envelop SS in a shroud, in which they needed to break in order to access the Soul Palace. Saying this attack >>> his SK Yhwach attacks makes zero sense, as there is no argument as to why he would make them slower for some weird reason.

You're arguing that because it's weaker (not necessarily), it's slower when it's usually the other way round? I can correctly argue that his attacks indeed travel the same speed. It's like saying when Yhwach reacted to Mimihagi point-blank (on panel) who also is FTL, Mimihagi was moving slower for some odd reason, and not trying to move the fastest he could in order to attack Yhwach. Seems a bit dubious

@ninjarizer Ichigo's hundred million petal feat isn't really that impressive without definitively knowing the speed of the individual petals were. And Uryu's feat isn't too impressive either compared to going fte to characters for a few miles. Shunpo is a technique that enhances speed, so him when using shunpo> to him not using it, because that is the point of the technique. And Yhawch didn't really react to the Mimihagi. It was sitting on the soul king, Yhawch picked it up and got attacked, but it was a lot stronger than it so Yhwach was unaffected. He also doesn't use that beam attack against Ichigo

@ninjarizer: lightning itself cannot reach 1/3 sol. the upstroke or the flash we see does, not the actual plasma that strikes the ground.

@ninjarizer:

However, the reason why I am steadfast in my interpretation is because of what Giriko said

Giriko only gave his spiel because Ginjo referenced the speed of lightning right before. A mocking reference mind you, because the narrator tells us the arrow is much slower and Ginjo's estimation echoes that. Giriko never supports Candice's arrows being lightning speed; he basically just pontificates on "speed" being a relative thing. The speed of lightning does vary, but if the arrows were as fast as lightning, even low-end lightning, they wouldn't be called "much slower than an actual lightning bolt." Because even low-end lightning would still be "actual" lightning speed. The narration is honestly so blatant that I don't see a good case for the arrows.

I'll provide evidence that her Electrocution is faster than Mach 300 though, and I find it hilarious how you guys still limit it to the lowest end lightning speed.

That's just been my experience in battle forums. Some use the average, but many use Mach 300.

Here is where I entirely disagree and still think you're arguing via semantics. The passage, although indicating the erratic movement of his body, is still a direct comparison to Candice's Electrocution, the fact that Ginjou calls him fast, it's compared to a predator rushing into the savannah after spotting its prey, which logically should be in a bullrush towards it's prey.

I disagree that it's semantics. The phrases "manipulates his body through the area like" and "moves as fast as" do not convey the same meaning. That's what I was getting at with my diver/cannonball example: it's possible for someone to do the former without the latter being true.

Ginjo calling Grimmjow "fast" happened later in the chapter, not when Grimmjow was running toward the group like a predator. Ginjo only called him "fast" when Grimmjow attacked him directly, and specifically because he began using sonido (which was creating optical illusions and slipping past Ginjo's reiatsu sense). So this is a completely different event you're talking about.

Gallery

Do you have any evidence Gin's Bankai would be relevant in this arc?

It left 2x captain reiatsu Ichigo speechless just from hearing the value of its base speed. It went FTE to this Ichigo and tagged him on multiple occasions from range; he then lost despite his Hollow mask. I haven't seen evidence for Grimmjow's speed transcending the FKT meta this hard, especially considering the novel suggests he's stronger than Nnoitora, seemingly relative to Halibel, and weaker than Barragan. The implications of Gin's Bankai speed were beyond these Espada-tier characters in all honesty.

I think it's wild to suggest that base Grimmjow is now supposedly relative to Gin's Bankai in travel speed (without even using sonido) based entirely on a vague power increase.

It's not an interpretation when the Novel says word for word "much slower than lightning"

You need to stop denying this and move on.