Best hand to hand fighters in Marvel Earth...

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JJ62

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#1  Edited By JJ62

Which heroes do you think are the best in Marvel Earth?

I'm talking heroes/anti-heroes only, no full on villains.

Who are the best in the world? This is what I think you can tell me if you agree...

#1-#3 are Stick, Captain America and Black Panther..not sure who's the best out of this group but my gut says Stick.

#4 Daredevil, he's beaten Iron Fist and Wolverine before...

#5-#7 Wolverine, Iron Fist and Shang Chi

#8-#11Taskmaster, Blade, Deadpool and Elektra

Others I think should be included: Moon Knight, Punisher, Nick Fury and Black Widow.

Anyways, this is what I think are the best in Marvel Earth, I'm open for discussion though. Which do you think are the best?

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handsome_stud

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#2  Edited By handsome_stud

batman.

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JJ62

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#3  Edited By JJ62

@handsome_stud said:

batman.

Batman isn't a Marvel character....

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Oscuro

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#4  Edited By Oscuro

Its hard trying to rank characters because Marvel doesn't know what the hell they want to do with them half the time. I value a combination of experience, training and fighting style. Everyone you named I'd put in the upper tiers some higher and some lower.  i never envisioned cap as a top level fighter but apparently he is. he must've picked up quite a few skills since he thawed because any WWII training he received would be worth next to nothing compared to what some of these other characters can do.

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Teerack

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#5  Edited By Teerack

I think it's something like this.

  1. Shang Chi
  2. Daredevil
  3. Black Panther
  4. Captain America
  5. Elektra
  6. Wolverine
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Blood1991

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#6  Edited By Blood1991

Pretty sure Mantis, Shang Chi and Iron Fist take the cake.

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k4tzm4n

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#7  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

Assuming he's not acting like a fool and letting his healing factor do all of the work, Wolverine is technically more skilled than the likes of Captain America and Daredevil.

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@k4tzm4n said:

Assuming he's not acting like a fool and letting his healing factor do all of the work, Wolverine is technically more skilled than the likes of Captain America and Daredevil.

Exactly. He's had over a century on them, and resided in Japan for a long period of time, so he should be familiar with martial arts combat and general swordsmanship. Captain America and Daredevil have focused on their hand-to-hand combat ability more though, so they hone on it a lot more than Logan does. Plus writers tend to just think Wolverine is a mindless beast who slashes and relies on his healing factor too much, and make people like Captain America outrank him in fighting ability merely because it is one of their main powers, while Logan already has plenty of mutant abilities.

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the_stegman

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#9  Edited By the_stegman  Moderator
@k4tzm4n said:

Assuming he's not acting like a fool and letting his healing factor do all of the work, Wolverine is technically more skilled than the likes of Captain America and Daredevil.

But letting his healing factor do all the work is what he does best!! Why dodge the bullets when you can just let them hit you! :O
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JJ62

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#10  Edited By JJ62

@k4tzm4n said:

Assuming he's not acting like a fool and letting his healing factor do all of the work, Wolverine is technically more skilled than the likes of Captain America and Daredevil.

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek said:

@k4tzm4n said:

Assuming he's not acting like a fool and letting his healing factor do all of the work, Wolverine is technically more skilled than the likes of Captain America and Daredevil.

Exactly. He's had over a century on them, and resided in Japan for a long period of time, so he should be familiar with martial arts combat and general swordsmanship. Captain America and Daredevil have focused on their hand-to-hand combat ability more though, so they hone on it a lot more than Logan does. Plus writers tend to just think Wolverine is a mindless beast who slashes and relies on his healing factor too much, and make people like Captain America outrank him in fighting ability merely because it is one of their main powers, while Logan already has plenty of mutant abilities.

I'm not sure, Daredevil has beaten Logan before IIRC....maybe Logan wasn't fighting his best? Or maybe Daredevil actually is more skilled, who knows?

@Teerack said:

I think it's something like this.

  1. Shang Chi
  2. Daredevil
  3. Black Panther
  4. Captain America
  5. Elektra
  6. Wolverine

Shang at #1? idk, I'm not real familiar with Shang but doesen't he lose to Iron Fist? Also, I think Cap is a better hand to hand combatant than Daredevil. Seeing as he's defeated him before...I've never seen Cap go head to head against Shang or Iron Fist though...

@Oscuro said:

Its hard trying to rank characters because Marvel doesn't know what the hell they want to do with them half the time. I value a combination of experience, training and fighting style. Everyone you named I'd put in the upper tiers some higher and some lower. i never envisioned cap as a top level fighter but apparently he is. he must've picked up quite a few skills since he thawed because any WWII training he received would be worth next to nothing compared to what some of these other characters can do.

Captain America is a master martial artist and one of the top tier hand to hand combatants in Marvel. Fighting Panther to a standstill and beating Daredevil are some great feats to start with when discussing his skill.

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Teerack

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#11  Edited By Teerack

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

I think it's something like this.

  1. Shang Chi
  2. Daredevil
  3. Black Panther
  4. Captain America
  5. Elektra
  6. Wolverine

Shang at #1? idk, I'm not real familiar with Shang but doesen't he lose to Iron Fist? Also, I think Cap is a better hand to hand combatant than Daredevil. Seeing as he's defeated him before...I've never seen Cap go head to head against Shang or Iron Fist though...

From what I've seen of Shang Chi he only lost to Iron Fist because Iron Fist had powers, and I don't remember Daredevil losing to Cap? I feel like a lot of people in comics and out of comics underestimate him a lot. It's just what I think though.

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JJ62

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#12  Edited By JJ62

@Teerack said:

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

I think it's something like this.

  1. Shang Chi
  2. Daredevil
  3. Black Panther
  4. Captain America
  5. Elektra
  6. Wolverine

Shang at #1? idk, I'm not real familiar with Shang but doesen't he lose to Iron Fist? Also, I think Cap is a better hand to hand combatant than Daredevil. Seeing as he's defeated him before...I've never seen Cap go head to head against Shang or Iron Fist though...

From what I've seen of Shang Chi he only lost to Iron Fist because Iron Fist had powers, and I don't remember Daredevil losing to Cap? I feel like a lot of people in comics and out of comics underestimate him a lot. It's just what I think though.

I do agree that Daredevil is underestimated, he's beaten Iron Fist and Wolverine in the past. Both of which are top tier martial artist in MU...but I do remember when he lost to Captain America, I don't have a scanner so I can't post the scans but I did find this on the web.

http://i16.tinypic.com/86etbev.jpg

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#13  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

@k4tzm4n said:

Assuming he's not acting like a fool and letting his healing factor do all of the work, Wolverine is technically more skilled than the likes of Captain America and Daredevil.

While this is true, Wolverine's usually just a brawler. He should be a lot better than he is, but really, the fact that he rarely uses his skills mean he gets rusty (which I think has been addressed before).

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k4tzm4n

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#14  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@JediXMan said:

@k4tzm4n said:

Assuming he's not acting like a fool and letting his healing factor do all of the work, Wolverine is technically more skilled than the likes of Captain America and Daredevil.

While this is true, Wolverine's usually just a brawler. He should be a lot better than he is, but really, the fact that he rarely uses his skills mean he gets rusty (which I think has been addressed before).

Yes, it has. That's why he had Harada teach him how to use a blade again. After training, though, Wolverine was already his superior and was able to detect flaws in Harada's style.

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HushoftheWind

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#15  Edited By HushoftheWind

I thought Taskmaster would be up there in the top 4 since he was Taking on 2 Caps during the Siege event

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Teerack

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#16  Edited By Teerack

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

I think it's something like this.

  1. Shang Chi
  2. Daredevil
  3. Black Panther
  4. Captain America
  5. Elektra
  6. Wolverine

Shang at #1? idk, I'm not real familiar with Shang but doesen't he lose to Iron Fist? Also, I think Cap is a better hand to hand combatant than Daredevil. Seeing as he's defeated him before...I've never seen Cap go head to head against Shang or Iron Fist though...

From what I've seen of Shang Chi he only lost to Iron Fist because Iron Fist had powers, and I don't remember Daredevil losing to Cap? I feel like a lot of people in comics and out of comics underestimate him a lot. It's just what I think though.

I do agree that Daredevil is underestimated, he's beaten Iron Fist and Wolverine in the past. Both of which are top tier martial artist in MU...but I do remember when he lost to Captain America, I don't have a scanner so I can't post the scans but I did find this on the web.

http://i16.tinypic.com/86etbev.jpg

Oh it was an old fight. I thought you were talking about the fight from the current run which ended with them talking it out.

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k4tzm4n

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#17  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Teerack said:

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

I think it's something like this.

  1. Shang Chi
  2. Daredevil
  3. Black Panther
  4. Captain America
  5. Elektra
  6. Wolverine

Shang at #1? idk, I'm not real familiar with Shang but doesen't he lose to Iron Fist? Also, I think Cap is a better hand to hand combatant than Daredevil. Seeing as he's defeated him before...I've never seen Cap go head to head against Shang or Iron Fist though...

From what I've seen of Shang Chi he only lost to Iron Fist because Iron Fist had powers, and I don't remember Daredevil losing to Cap? I feel like a lot of people in comics and out of comics underestimate him a lot. It's just what I think though.

I do agree that Daredevil is underestimated, he's beaten Iron Fist and Wolverine in the past. Both of which are top tier martial artist in MU...but I do remember when he lost to Captain America, I don't have a scanner so I can't post the scans but I did find this on the web.

http://i16.tinypic.com/86etbev.jpg

Oh it was an old fight. I thought you were talking about the fight from the current run which ended with them talking it out.

That's from 'Streets of Poison.' Daredevil's radar wasn't at 100% and Captain America was under the influence of drugs which made him more aggressive.

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Teerack

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#18  Edited By Teerack

@k4tzm4n said:

@Teerack said:

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

I think it's something like this.

  1. Shang Chi
  2. Daredevil
  3. Black Panther
  4. Captain America
  5. Elektra
  6. Wolverine

Shang at #1? idk, I'm not real familiar with Shang but doesen't he lose to Iron Fist? Also, I think Cap is a better hand to hand combatant than Daredevil. Seeing as he's defeated him before...I've never seen Cap go head to head against Shang or Iron Fist though...

From what I've seen of Shang Chi he only lost to Iron Fist because Iron Fist had powers, and I don't remember Daredevil losing to Cap? I feel like a lot of people in comics and out of comics underestimate him a lot. It's just what I think though.

I do agree that Daredevil is underestimated, he's beaten Iron Fist and Wolverine in the past. Both of which are top tier martial artist in MU...but I do remember when het lost to Captain America, I don't have a scanner so I can't post the scans but I did find this on the web.

http://i16.tinypic.com/86etbev.jpg

Oh it was an old fight. I thought you were talking about the fight from the current run which ended with them talking it out.

That's from 'Streets of Poison.' Daredevil's radar wasn't at 100% and Captain America was under the influence of drugs which made him more aggressive.

That sounds a little to unfair to count. Without his radar DD is totally blind, so he probably had a hard time telling what was even happening at times.

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k4tzm4n

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#19  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@Teerack said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Teerack said:

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

I think it's something like this.

  1. Shang Chi
  2. Daredevil
  3. Black Panther
  4. Captain America
  5. Elektra
  6. Wolverine

Shang at #1? idk, I'm not real familiar with Shang but doesen't he lose to Iron Fist? Also, I think Cap is a better hand to hand combatant than Daredevil. Seeing as he's defeated him before...I've never seen Cap go head to head against Shang or Iron Fist though...

From what I've seen of Shang Chi he only lost to Iron Fist because Iron Fist had powers, and I don't remember Daredevil losing to Cap? I feel like a lot of people in comics and out of comics underestimate him a lot. It's just what I think though.

I do agree that Daredevil is underestimated, he's beaten Iron Fist and Wolverine in the past. Both of which are top tier martial artist in MU...but I do remember when het lost to Captain America, I don't have a scanner so I can't post the scans but I did find this on the web.

http://i16.tinypic.com/86etbev.jpg

Oh it was an old fight. I thought you were talking about the fight from the current run which ended with them talking it out.

That's from 'Streets of Poison.' Daredevil's radar wasn't at 100% and Captain America was under the influence of drugs which made him more aggressive.

That sounds a little to unfair to count. Without his radar DD is totally blind, so he probably had a hard time telling what was even happening at times.

I said his radar wasn't at 100%, not that he didn't have it.

And yes, I was adding the factors to let you guys know it isn't exactly a fair or standard encounter between the two.

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Teerack

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#20  Edited By Teerack

@k4tzm4n said:

@Teerack said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Teerack said:

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

@JJ62 said:

@Teerack said:

I think it's something like this.

  1. Shang Chi
  2. Daredevil
  3. Black Panther
  4. Captain America
  5. Elektra
  6. Wolverine

Shang at #1? idk, I'm not real familiar with Shang but doesen't he lose to Iron Fist? Also, I think Cap is a better hand to hand combatant than Daredevil. Seeing as he's defeated him before...I've never seen Cap go head to head against Shang or Iron Fist though...

From what I've seen of Shang Chi he only lost to Iron Fist because Iron Fist had powers, and I don't remember Daredevil losing to Cap? I feel like a lot of people in comics and out of comics underestimate him a lot. It's just what I think though.

I do agree that Daredevil is underestimated, he's beaten Iron Fist and Wolverine in the past. Both of which are top tier martial artist in MU...but I do remember when het lost to Captain America, I don't have a scanner so I can't post the scans but I did find this on the web.

http://i16.tinypic.com/86etbev.jpg

Oh it was an old fight. I thought you were talking about the fight from the current run which ended t';them talking it out.

That's from 'Streets of Poison.' Daredevil's radar wasn't at 100% and Captain America was under the influence of drugs which made him more aggressive.

That sounds a little to unfair to count. Without his radar DD is totally blind, so he probably had a hard time telling what was even happening at times.

I said his radar wasn't at 100%, not that he didn't have it.

And yes, I was adding the factors to let you guys know it isn't exactly a fair or standard encounter between the two.

That's why I said at times, because of how it works he probably couldn't understand all of the information. At least that's usually what it's like when his radar is weakened or stressed.

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JJ62

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#21  Edited By JJ62

It's true that when they fight DD the settings are usually unfair. But I also have a vague memory of a comic in the 80's where DD actually runs away from Cap, doesent make much sense cuz he's the man without fear but I seem to remember it happening. If anyone has those scans please post them up.

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Oscuro

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#22  Edited By Oscuro
@JJ62: I know cap is a master but i would like to know when or where he got his training. being frozen in ice for 20 or so years doesn't raise ones fighting skills. and i just dont get how he is that good when WWII military training probably consisted of doing pushups and running which he couldnt do because he was a runt. the america vs the world mentality of the time probably didn't allow for him to broaden his horizons as far as fighting styles and techniques. i like cap but i dont get how giving him the super soldier serum really put him into the upper classes of fighters. it starts to get confusing as hell. is he supposed to be naturally talented at fighting or what? cuz that would make sense.
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#23  Edited By WaveMotionCannon
@handsome_stud

batman.

Would get his ass whipped by half the people on this list.
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#24  Edited By TheMarvelFanboy
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#25  Edited By CuzISaidso

lol @ shang chi being the best

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#26  Edited By Rumble Man

@k4tzm4n: Wolverine is a peculiar case

he has 'hundredz of marshall urtz' written into him

but since healing factor and adamantium bones came along

he gets hit more often than not when fighting mooks along with his comrades

heck, even cyke gets moments for hitting him

so showing his healing factor > showing his MA prowess

since writers like that edgy sh!t

realistically he should be able to master chi and do pressure points

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k4tzm4n

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#27  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

He does know pressure points. Just because he's often written like a fool or opts do let his healing factor do work doesn't mean he lacks knowledge. He's consistently ranked a 7/7 in fighting skill for a reason, after all.

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DarkxSeraph

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#28  Edited By DarkxSeraph

You might want to add, oddly, Remy LeBeau. Nick Fury noted that Gambit was one of the best hand to hand fighters he had ever seen.

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@Oscuro said:

@JJ62: I know cap is a master but i would like to know when or where he got his training. being frozen in ice for 20 or so years doesn't raise ones fighting skills. and i just dont get how he is that good when WWII military training probably consisted of doing pushups and running which he couldnt do because he was a runt. the america vs the world mentality of the time probably didn't allow for him to broaden his horizons as far as fighting styles and techniques. i like cap but i dont get how giving him the super soldier serum really put him into the upper classes of fighters. it starts to get confusing as hell. is he supposed to be naturally talented at fighting or what? cuz that would make sense.

You make an excellent point.

I never really thought about it like that before... I think how he learned all those fighting skills and techniques was out of necessity, I mean, when you have every villain you can possibly think of attacking you at every corner you kinda need to learn all this stuff. It's not so prominent now that there are hardly any one-shot issues anymore, but if you look at some of the old 'Marvel essential'collections there was a new, more dangerous, villain every month!

He picks up more skills in a week then most people can learn in years, I think it's mostly because of his physical stats are already at peak. whereas most people have to spend half there lives getting there bodies in that kind of condition to be able to use those skills.

Also, It was mentioned in a comic once(I forget which it was) he can pick up a weapon and become a master in an afternoon

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Sorry. That last comment was a little rushed...

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#31  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@DarkxSeraph said:

You might want to add, oddly, Remy LeBeau. Nick Fury noted that Gambit was one of the best hand to hand fighters he had ever seen.

Gambit's a solid combatant and quite skilled when it comes to savate and stick fighting, but he doesn't have the feats to be in the top 10 for hand-to-hand.

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DarkxSeraph

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#32  Edited By DarkxSeraph

Just noting, if Nick Fury says you're one of the best... chances are... you're one of the best. If you put Logan up here, remember, he and Remy went toe to toe--and Remy doesn't have a healing factor.

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k4tzm4n

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#33  Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@DarkxSeraph said:

Just noting, if Nick Fury says you're one of the best... chances are... you're one of the best. If you put Logan up here, remember, he and Remy went toe to toe--and Remy doesn't have a healing factor.

At the end of the day, actual feats outweigh verbal praise. Gambit was able to evade Wolverine in the danger room for some time and only took him down with he used the environment to distract him. Aside from that, Wolverine has been his clear superior in every other 616 encounter. We're talking purely about unarmed combat here, and in that regard Remy is only bringing savate to the table. With his agility and reflexes he's certainly good, but nowhere near top 10 material in the Marvel U.

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DarkxSeraph

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#34  Edited By DarkxSeraph

Fair enough. *nods*

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spidershamrock

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#35  Edited By spidershamrock

How does Spidey not get a shout, I'm not saying he's top dog or anything but with his spidey sense and agility he must rank somewhere in the top 20

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#36  Edited By Strider1992

@JJ62: Taskmaster has stalemated Captain America twice so he's not far off his level. I'd put him higher on the list.

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#37  Edited By Oscuro
@Battle_Forum_Junkie: ok thanks for helping clarify that for me. but hell if he is that skilled he didn't really need the super soldier serum. a regular soldier serum would have been enough lol.
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#38  Edited By TDK_1997

Taskmaster,Shang-Chi,Daredevil,Iron Fist and Wolverine.

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#39  Edited By MSzekeresh

Based solely off of how I have seen them portrayed in the comic books that I have read

1. Captain America: While I understand why some might question exactly he got so damn good Cap seems to be one of the most consistent fighters we have seen in the Marvel Universe. Has been shown training pretty much every Avenger in hand to hand combat.

2. Taskmaster: The villain who almost always gets away in a physical confrontation due to his ability to use other peoples fighting styles.

3. Black Widow: Possibly because she rarely seems to use a weapon other than her Widows Sting seems to constantly get the upper hand. In a recent miniseries The Punisher had to distract her to escape.

Others can and should disagree

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tg1982

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#40  Edited By tg1982

@Battle_Forum_Junkie: @Oscuro: When Cap was in WWII apparently he was all ready adept at every form of combat known to man.

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Honestly the only explanation is that it's a comic book, and "normal" humans can do thing that are seemingly impossible all the time. LOL.

But in the Marvel Universe, I think, it is explained like this...the super soldier serum gave him, among the physical and physiological perfection, an eidetic memory (total recall) alowing him to recall every single memory in complete and perfect detail, so seeing or studying a specifc martial art he can remember every nuance and since he's already in supreme physical condition he can bypass the physical training aspects of martial arts and focus on the techniques and applications of whatever martial art he was/is learning, so he can pretty much learn a martial art in a fraction of the time it would take others and also, do to the super soldier serum it has been stated he can master any weapon in seconds.

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I hope this helps.

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Oscuro

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#41  Edited By Oscuro
@tg1982: Hell yeah it helps. just gotta accept it really lol. im just a mofo who asks questions and sometimes too damn many. it just cracks me up how much it can change over time. if the sss makes him the peak of physical perfection how would it affect his mental abilities too? because if that's the case, then shouldn't colonel america be able to master weapons and martial arts in like an afternoon as well? anyway i do appreciate you helping resolve this sh-t, i really do. and that scan with cap and moon knight is hilarious btw
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Battle_Forum_Junkie

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@tg1982: Thanks for finding that scan!

And again, thanks for the explanation. Very informative, and way better then mine.:P

So like Taskmaster's ability, just less well-known. Nice.

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tg1982

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#43  Edited By tg1982

@Oscuro said:

@tg1982: Hell yeah it helps. just gotta accept it really lol. im just a mofo who asks questions and sometimes too damn many. it just cracks me up how much it can change over time. if the sss makes him the peak of physical perfection how would it affect his mental abilities too? because if that's the case, then shouldn't colonel america be able to master weapons and martial arts in like an afternoon as well? anyway i do appreciate you helping resolve this sh-t, i really do. and that scan with cap and moon knight is hilarious btw

I'm glad I was able to help. And don't worry about asking questions, my 5th grade teacher used to say, "the more you ask, the more you learn." LOL.

As far as the SSS effecting Cap's mental accuity it does, but to what extent hasn't, to my knowledge, been really explored in the comics. I guess people prefer the action to science techno babble. LOL

@Battle_Forum_Junkie said:

@tg1982: Thanks for finding that scan!

And again, thanks for the explanation. Very informative, and way better then mine.:P

So like Taskmaster's ability, just less well-known. Nice.

Glad I could help. Basically like Taskmaster but not to the degree that Taskmaster posesses. Tasky can literally learn a fight style just by watching it once, as we all know. Cap still has to spend time learning a style, I believe.

@Battle_Forum_Junkie: @Oscuro: Also I'm not sure if Beast in that scan was using hyperbole or was making a factual statement about the mastering weapons in seconds thing. Just want to clarify that part.

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tg1982

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#45  Edited By tg1982

I would say...

Captain America/Black Panther/Wolverine in a three way tie (two of them have confirmed to know every fighting style in the world, and Wolverine has been around for so long that he most likely does as well)

Iron Fist/Daredevil

Shang Chi (the only problem I have is just lack of feats)

Just my opinion, though

edit note: I would put Taskmaster in here but I think he is a straight up villian, any "good" he does isn't because it's right, it's because he's being compensated for it. It doesn't make him an anti-hero, it just makes him a mercenary, IMO.

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JJ62

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#46  Edited By JJ62

@tg1982

True, but either Logan doesent fight his best or he's just not as good as he used to be because he can take hits instead of avoiding them. Because Daredevil defeated him once...at least. There was a time when Daredevil fought Logan and a group of ninjas from the Hand, and DD managed to beat them and Wolverine.

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#47 k4tzm4n  Moderator

@jj62 said:

@tg1982

True, but either Logan doesent fight his best or he's just not as good as he used to be because he can take hits instead of avoiding them. Because Daredevil defeated him once...at least. There was a time when Daredevil fought Logan and a group of ninjas from the Hand, and DD managed to beat them and Wolverine.

To be fair, it's worth mentioning that was while Wolverine was brainwashed and he was trying to fight it during that encounter IIRC.

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taskmaster, cap, shang chi, iron fist, daredevil and fat cobra

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Stronger

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Wolverine

Daredevil

Iron Fist

Captain America

Daken

Shang Chi

Black Panther

Psylocke

etc.