Best comic book movie of all time?

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UltimateBeing

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Poll Best comic book movie of all time? (62 votes)

Batman Begins 0%
The Dark Knight 32%
The Dark Knight Rises 3%
Iron Man (2008) 2%
Captain America The Winter Soldier 0%
Captain America Civil War 0%
Avengers Infinity War 26%
Avengers Endgame 3%
Logan 6%
Joker 3%
Thor Ragnarok 0%
The Avengers (2012) 3%
Spider-Man No Way Home 0%
Spider-Man 2 (Raimi) 10%
Spider-Man (Raimi) 0%
Black Panther 0%
Guardians of The Galaxy 0%
Guardians of The Galaxy Vol. 2 0%
X-Men Days of Future Past 3%
X2 0%
X-Men First Class 0%
Deadpool 0%
Deadpool 2 2%
Kick-Ass 0%
V for Vendetta 5%
Batman (1989) 0%
Doctor Strange 2%

I included all the best comic book movies. Only live-action ones. Discuss what movie you think is the best comic book movie of all time.

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krisbishop

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#1 krisbishop  Moderator

This has been asked a thousand times and the answer will always be The Dark Knight.

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UltimateBeing

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I prefer the Dark Knight Rises honestly.

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KaiserRebellion

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DOFP or Logan in my opinion. Been watching Hugh since forever but his performance for the old man Logan adaptation was amazing very good ending to.

As for dofp The old folks who I know that has read that storyline physical can’t even complain like the do about most comic book movies.

Also winter soldier still the standard for mcu movies.

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TheAmazingSpidey

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Infinity War.

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Enzvi

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#6 Enzvi  Online

Infinity War

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Samsaknight

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The dark knight

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Ghostodoofus2

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#8 Ghostodoofus2  Online

Still The Dark Knight.

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seastone98

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Meteor man

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HydratedFubuki6

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#10  Edited By HydratedFubuki6

TDK.

I don't get why people would vote for Infinity War over The Winter Soldier. Bigger budget don't mean better movie. IW isn't even in the top 10 CBMs of all time, in overall. Writing is always the biggest factor in movies.

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KingLouie

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TDK or IW

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Gaoron

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adamTRMM

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Watchmen

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Rhubarb

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Road to Perdition

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Ready_4_Madness

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TDK, IW and The Batman

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Scholomance

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V for Vendetta, TDK & Joker

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AKZ

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TDK

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Zafros13

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#18  Edited By Zafros13

I don't really see how a thorough, non narrow minded analysis could come to conclusion that any movie that's not TDK is the best.

Though admittably I think my first watch of Infinity War is the best movie experience of my life so I can see an argument for it, there was so much energy in the theater (it was Thursday afternoon, I think most of them checked out of work early to be there). I never was actually able to have a first viewing experience for TDK, my brother watched it alot when I was small but I thought it was kind of scary so I mostly saw it in smaller sections. Also I definitely didn't understand a lot of the themes.

Infinity War is well constructed. Paced very well, strong sense of urgency, non formulaic, unique story structure, characters that push the story forward, strong sense of stakes and the feeling that characters can die at any moment.

The Dark Knight however perfectly handles having a wide variety of themes (and is the best example of theme juggling I could think of from all literature). The movie has so much themes but there built up and paid off so smoothly so that they can compliment eachother instead of feeling messy. The movie doesn't waste time, everything helps to set up, pay off, or develop the characters, themes, and/or plot. And it doesn't follow a generic Act Structure.

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TheInsufferable

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Morbius, obviously.

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mexcomics2078

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SM2

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Watcer

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Spider-Man 2 and V for Vendetta ez.

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UltimateBeing

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TDK dominating the polls.

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captain_inverse

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@ultimatebeing: .....you don't even have the GOAT on your list.....

SIN CITY>>>>>>>>>>>>ALL OTHER CBM's

Challenge any to be compare their CBM to Sin City..

Don't see Spawn up there either, but meh🤷‍♂️

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killbilly

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#25 killbilly  Moderator

No Watchmen makes me sad. :(

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Zafros13

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I would like to hear more of people's reasoning

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UltimateBeing

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@zafros13 said:

I would like to hear more of people's reasoning

Same.

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UltimateBeing

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Infinity War is really amazing.

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batstroke2000

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How is Superman (1978) not on this poll?! Without that film, the comic book movie genre wouldn't exist.

Anyways, my top 3 are The Dark Knight, Raimi's Spider-Man 2 and Logan.

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chris2kzombieki

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@zafros13 said:

I don't really see how a thorough, non narrow minded analysis could come to conclusion that any movie that's not TDK is the best.

Though admittably I think my first watch of Infinity War is the best movie experience of my life so I can see an argument for it, there was so much energy in the theater (it was Thursday afternoon, I think most of them checked out of work early to be there). I never was actually able to have a first viewing experience for TDK, my brother watched it alot when I was small but I thought it was kind of scary so I mostly saw it in smaller sections. Also I definitely didn't understand a lot of the themes.

Infinity War is well constructed. Paced very well, strong sense of urgency, non formulaic, unique story structure, characters that push the story forward, strong sense of stakes and the feeling that characters can die at any moment.

The Dark Knight however perfectly handles having a wide variety of themes (and is the best example of theme juggling I could think of from all literature). The movie has so much themes but there built up and paid off so smoothly so that they can compliment eachother instead of feeling messy. The movie doesn't waste time, everything helps to set up, pay off, or develop the characters, themes, and/or plot. And it doesn't follow a generic Act Structure.

I never really hear a good reason for why TDK is good. Can you give me your perspective? IMO its an overrated film, and was heavily carried by Heath Ledgers performance.

Spider-Man 2 is an overall better movie. TDK has a really good villain, and a pretty good story. Joker seeks chaos while Batman seeks order. However, Otto Octavius is a really good villain.

The main character is very one sided. Bruce has no clear ark. Unlike Peter in spider-man 2, who goes from a hero from guilt to choice. Batman is less interesting than Harvey and Joker. Peter in his movie cannot win in his movie. He losses his job, he is failing his classes, he can't get the girl he wan't, he can't pay his bills, his aunt can't pay her bills, add to it he is losing his powers. Peter is the key to why this movie works. Tobey isn't the best Spider-Man, but as Peter Parker? It's not even close.

Can't talk about the supporting cast because Aunt May and JJJ are AMAZING characters, but TDK has just more variety of solidly good characters.

What annoys me the most is the action in the TDK. It's not very creative, it's very boring. But Spider-Man 2 has a more visual director, so it's not really fair.

The story is...just... difficult. TDK has a lot of problems. The bullet fingerprint makes no sense, and Batman using the sonar tech to spy on the innocent people to get the Joker, is just wrong. One characters acknowledges it, then completely ignore it. The main theme for TDK is how superheroes affect the world around them. Spider-Man 2 is much about choice. 3 characters choices affect the film. The first choice is Otto, who tries to prove his machine works. Harry continues his hatred over spider-man even though he saved him. And Peter hangs up the suit. Then, in reverse order, Peter Parker fixes his mistake, and gives up what he want to save people. He teaches this to Harry and Otto. TDK has a good theme with him taking the blame for Harvey, which makes sense. But Batman seems to want to do things, yet never seems to. Batman almost turns himself in, he tries to retire. But the movie doesn't seem to do anything with Batman.

This is just my opinion, but the movie does more with Harvey and Joker than with Batman. I love the movie, and think it's one of the best movies ever made. But Spider-Man 2 does more and just overall feels like the more complete story.

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chris2kzombieki

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@ultimatebeing: I continue to believe that Heath Ledger as Joker is why this movie is so well praised. Whenever I hear people say how good the movie is, they never say why. I've given my thoughts above but I doubt anyone will agree.

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Great_Darkness

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TDK, but Joker and Logan deserve more votes. Surprised IW is getting so many votes though

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sabracadabra

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TDK.v for vendetta, joker.

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Zafros13

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#34  Edited By Zafros13

@chris2kzombieki: there's alot to cover about TDK so I won't get to all of it.

How I would describe TDK? A masterfully constructed film.

So what catagory about The Dark Knight stands out? The themes obviously. It is incredible how many themes this movie has, how effectively and efficiently they build up all the themes, pay them off, how well executed thats done, how it can develop so much and end up executing it all at the same time in a way that it fits together so well, builds it's momentum smoothly, and when it all comes together it becomes something greater, without it ending up feeling messy. It's difficult to find the right place to start when talking about it.

Joker: To lay some groundwork let's explain what the Joker is. He believes that humanity is naturally evil (which contrasts Bruce's faith that there's good in people. Ex: when talking to Gordon he's confident in the people on the boats not blowing eachother up.) He thinks society itself facilitates societally acceptable evil, that society is stupid. Joker lies alot but has a seed of truth in his lies. Now that we have some grounwork now let's go to Batman....

Batman is a very well written character. So in Batman Begins he sets out to be a symbol of hope, however in TDK he's finding that he's actually inspiring copycat vigilantes, paving the way for the mob turning to terrorists like the Joker, what the city really needs is a hero with a face... "He took out half the cities criminals and he did it without wearing a mask, Gotham needs a hero with a face"... Such as Harvey Dent AKA The White Knight AKA the ideal hero (which by the way the idea of an ideal hero is fake/ a lie). "I was meant to inspire good, not madness not death" (Bruce Wayne). Bruce is in turmoil over his failure but at the end of the movie Bruce realizes that it's not about competing with Harvey to be the hero, Bruce was never the ideal hero because he has a totalitarism like philosophy, and to get things done he's thinks he has to be limitless. So at the end he uses the very thing that brings himself inner conflict and directs it torwards saving the city. "Gotham needs it's true hero. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain, I can do those things because I'm not a hero, not like Dent."

Duality between Batman and Harvey Dent: Both Batman and Harvey face a trial of corruption, as I'm sure you know Bruce succeeds, "you truly are incorruptible aren't you"(Joker) and Harvey fails. One of the best lines of the movies is when Harvey asks "why was it me who was the only one who lost everything" and then Bruce replies with "it wasn't" this was the only time in the conversation where Batman had to pause before he speaks, and when he did speak it wasn't a full sentence argument it was just a reply. I think there's like 3 things Bruce is thinking in this moment 1.) Your not the only one who suffers, people become criminals because everything gets taken from them (to Jokers point the great hero of the people can be pushed to evil actions just like any scum such as the likes of Joe Chill). 2.) I also lost Racheal, my chance for a normal life, my parents, but I was able to use everything I have to direct it towards good (which relates to the duality between the characters), 3.) Some aknolegment that Harvey is right because he knows that Harvey is the one Joker went for to hurt Gotham's soul.

But anyway back to the set up. Bruce's goal in this movie goal is to be able to live a normal life, which can only be done by Harvey succeeding his mission. Batman like Julia Caesar before him has appointed himself to not have to answer to anybody (but unlike Caesar he gives a way his power at the end by destroying the sonar machine). Joker kills Bruce's loved one and with it his only chance of a normal life, but he resists surcoming to corruption that Harvey has undergone and is able to use is trauma to bring about goodness. And uses Joker trying to turn the city against him as well as his own failures in terms of being the symbol of hope as his own weopon to save the city.

Christopher Nolan commonly use themes of objective vs subjective reality (most notably in Momento and Inception) which he does here to. "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" is a phrase that applies to both Harvey and Bruce but in opposite ways. Bruce falls as a hero from the subjective perspective of the people, while Harvey falls objectively but rises as a martyr in subjective perspective of the people. Batman himself is a product of the Gotham's conditions, he was born out of the city which is why he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs which is why he has to take the fall to prop up Harvey who is gothams true hero.

Jokers proves to be right to some respect because the idealized hero who saved the people of Gotham doesn't exist, but the people put faith in the idea of that goodness so Batman thinks that because the truth isn't good enough people must be rewarded in the faith that they put in (and the humans choosing not to kill each other on the Fairy is what is supposed to represent the faith that they put in) While the movie says this it cuts to Alfred burning Rachel's letter in the belief that Bruce deserves it because of Bruces faith. (Call back: last thing Racheal says is "if you lose faith in me, please keep your faith in people.")

So for as much as people say the villain carries the movie, the best scene of the movie is the last scene of the movie which doesn't have Joker in it.

The ending: best ending from any movie ever. The movie has like two climaxes in a row, both are awesome. You have the very big, vast in scope climax of the construction site, then the smaller scale cimax right after. I think this 3rd act model is under utilized, because when I see it's usually very good, TDK does not make you feel like the climax overstays it's welcome. Ending feels very complete while also having the right amount of the sense of ambiguity. Also the ending has great editing, and is great use of non linear storytelling, it cuts to both the future and past to give the scene thematic and emotional continuity. In construction fight the people have to prove that there worth saving before Batman saves them.

Amazing ending: https://youtu.be/TibA0sQQZw8

Structure: I dislike the overally formulaic act structure of movies like TWS and Gaurdians of the Galaxy 1. The Dark Knights shakes the structure up by having a double climax at the end, an a typical resolution (new normal) ending, and having Rachel's death being such a major turning point of the plot and character dynamics that makes the movie feel more unique. Also the way the movie is paced mimicks the feeling of a long night.... "Night is darknest just before the dawn" in the sense that you keep on getting the anticipation that a resolution could be found behind the next corner/plot point, but then theres a distruption in the "rising action" stops, which mimics the feeling of thinking a night is almost over but then getting feeling of being way off.

Tight Script: Something I have to bring attention to is how effectivly they develop all of its themes. They build torwards, develop, setup everything so effectively because they use every scene of the movie to do it. (Now there are like two set ups that don't end up being relevant to the greater themes of the movie 1.) Bruce switching suits was a really good set up for how Bruce beats the Joker using his arm blade, however it being vulnerable knives wasn't relevant until TDKR in regards to Talia. 2.) Guy figuring out Batman's identity was relevant to the plot, and was payed off with a funny scene however it didn't really go anywhere thematically.) The setup of ideas is so good, the copy cats, Bruce spying on people, talking about Julia Caesar and philosophy over dinner, Harvey's prosecution depending on Harvey's reputation, Bruce considering Racheal his only chance for a normal life, Bruce believing in what Harvey stands for, Harvey having a coin that has heads on both sides, Bruce not abiding by any juristiction and going to Hong Kong, conflict between Harvey and Gordon over corruption in there offices, establishing early that one of Gordon's officers have a sick mother, they have one moment to set up Batman's wrist projectiles, and that's just the stuff on the top of my head, I havent watched the movie in over a year (several years ago I rewatched it over and over again because I wanted to get a better understanding of the movie, and every time I picked up on new things).

Anyway as for Spider-man 2. Great cinemetography, production design, character work, soundtrack. I do not however spend time putting consideration in it being as good as TDK because I find that there's a pretty obvious difference in there overall quality.

Edit: (More TDK stuff)

Tone: Really good tonal balance, the humor doesn't mess with the movies darker tone, it is pretty seeminlessly transitions from a humorous moment to a serious moment. Like Bruce arrival to the fundraiser quickly transitioning from glacting goofy to a very genuine praise to Harvey.

Action: Construction Site is a great showing of tactical awareness, very good fight scene. The car fight is great to, especially when he flips the huge truck.

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chris2kzombieki

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@zafros13: Batman’s plot with the copying vigilantes is nice, but its rarely touched upon. It’s brushed away with a quick joke, One of the copy’s dies and it’s not mentioned. The scenes with Harvey is an example of the villain carrying the movie. Bruce ends as someone who believes Batman can make a difference l, then ends with Bruce who thinks Batman can make a difference. Bruce is less interesting than Joker and Harvey. Something that you fail to touch upon is the themes. What is the theme of the movie? The theme is how heroes affect the world around them, yet that theme is rarely touched upon. Overall I do agree that TDK is a great movie, and one of the best superhero movies ever, but it’s not critiqued when it should.

Spider-Man 2 has an arguably better theme with choice. Because more than one character in the movie goes through that change. Otto, harry, and Peter. It’s handled beautifully, and Peter ends as a different Spider-Man. TDK is an amazing movie and deserves a lot of respect, but Spider-Man 2 does just as much as TDK, and has just overall better execution

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SuperDarth

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DOFP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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Zafros13

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#37  Edited By Zafros13

@chris2kzombieki: "but its rarely touched upon. It’s brushed away with a quick joke,"

The copy cats are Batman's influence on the city. Batman is trying to be a symbol but he's a vigilante, it sends a pro vigilante message.

What Bruce said about it is "that's not what I meant when I said I wanted to inspire people"

What Joker said about the matter was "this is how crazy Batman's made Gotham"

Later in the movie Bruce says about Harvey "he took out half of Gotham criminals and did it without wearing a mask. Gotham needs a hero with face"

Harvey doesn't wear a mask, so he doesn't influence people to go around with guns and masks believing that there above the law. That's why Batman doesn't consider himself the true hero.

You see it all contributes to the greater picture.

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Zafros13

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#38  Edited By Zafros13

@chris2kzombieki: Spider-Man 2 has an arguably better theme with choice."

TDK is significantly more complex which isn't always a good thing but was executed very well in this case.

"Because more than one character in the movie goes through that change. Otto, harry, and Peter. It’s handled beautifully, and Peter ends as a different Spider-Man."

Batman ends as a different Batman. He uses his own failure as a weopon to save the city to give his symbol a new purpose. Now as you can probably see TDK is more of a movie about ideas, concepts, and themes that characters are chess peices in then a movie just about characters, but that's not a bad thing.

As for Spiderman 2 both Otto and Peter have to deal with a dream vs responsibility dilema, however it's not as well written as what I've covered for TDK..

"TDK is an amazing movie and deserves a lot of respect, but Spider-Man 2 does just as much as TDK,"

TDK is longer, denser, deeper, more complex.

"and has just overall better execution"

No, TDK has to juggle a ton things at the same time in way so that they compliment eachother, and when it all comes together the scope of the themes feels amazing. Spider-man has good themes of heroism but is much simpler so its a less impressive writing.

Spiderman has some mistakes in execution like it didn't convey to the audience how Otto's failure of an experiment effected Peter. Raimi in an interview said that it was the intention but it did come through. It was supposed to have removed Peter's hope of balancing a life of responsibility and of love.

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Zafros13

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#39  Edited By Zafros13

But I will also say what I like about Spiderman 2.

I think the idea is that the hero lies in Peter Parker, not Spiderman, the powers just help. In the end he saves the day using his empethy, not his strength. Not having powers didn't stop him from saving the child and building. And it was he the person who had to make the commitment to be a hero dispite the sacrifice because Spiderman is the root of all his problems. He has to be Spiderman not just for the people he saves but the goodness he inspires in people (ex: getting through to Otto, the people on the train not trying to leverage the knowing what his face looks like, Aunt May saying how he teaches people how to hold on a second longer.)

The movie is strong in production design, cinemetography, and soundtrack. Also visual storytelling.

I have some pacing issues with him going from super happy to sad to quickly.

Which is why I would place Sm2 3rd place on my ranking.

Edit: If I were to try to find visual storytelling examples I would say... In the "Hole On" montage scene where he's going to MJ's show the song says "You try so hard to be someone that you forget who you are" then the camera cuts to his closet where we see two items in his closet, his suit and his Spiderman suit. This in conjunction with the music conveys to the audience the idea that he spends so much time as Spiderman that he leaves Peter Parker behind.

https://youtu.be/Lh0eOfgPzOY

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Zafros13

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#40  Edited By Zafros13

@chris2kzombieki: https://youtu.be/EGjio-ejYlg

Good video essay covering themes of TDK above.

Filmento also has a video essay covering how the the first act a movie sets a good baseline for the rest of the movie to build off of:

https://youtu.be/ZWyy2r8t-gE

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chris2kzombieki

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@zafros13: The thing that makes me the most upset is that peoples who love the Dark Knight don’t actually mention it’s faults, which it does have. Bruce does not go through an arc. I don’t understand how it’s more complex or longer. It’s also not deeper. After the copycats at the beginning of the movie, and after joker kills one, they just seemingly vanish and disappear. Harvey was not inspired by Batman, so the copycat storyline is gone.

The part where Bruce takes fault for Harvey is amazing, and I really think that it’s stronger than any other movie. It makes sense and pays off the entire movie. What I do have a problem with is the fact that Batman is not the most interesting character in this movie. Peter starts as Spider-Man out of guilt, but ends as Spider-Man out of choice. Your issue with Peter going from happy to sad so fast is confusing. He’s losing his powers, he can’t pay his bills, he can’t hold down a job, and the girl he likes is getting married to someone else. That’s a perfectly good reason to be sad. We see the toll that ignoring the guy getting beat up is having on Peter.

Overall the story of Arkham Knight is good, but it has major issues that just don’t work. Bruce firing the bullet into the wall to recreate the fingerprint is just confusing. In addition, Batman spying on people to get one bad guy is mentioned once and not brought up again. That’s not something to just skim over. It’s wrong for google to do it, and it’s wrong for Batman to do it. I can go into more details when I’m on laptop, but the point is that TDK, for all it’s glory, has faults. Yet people never seem to bring them up. TDK is an amazing movie, but you don’t mention why it’s deeper, how it’s longer, you don’t even mention the theme of the entire movie. But overall Spider-Man two handles it’s main character better than the dark knight. The Dark Knight may have more characters that have arcs, but the only stand outs are Joker and Harvey. While Peter, Otto, and Harry each have their own arcs.

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@zafros13: Another theme that can be brought up is that focusing to much on one aspect of your life can have a toll. Otto focuses to much on his machine, and it causes him everything. After Peter begins to lose his powers, and after witnessing what prioritizing one part of your life can do to a person, Peter believes it’s time to hang up the mask.

Bruce doesnt face a duality arc, it’s more on Harvey. I’ll wait but you still don’t actually give the entire theme of the movie, or talk about the story.

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Zafros13

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@chris2kzombieki: I'd say my least favorite thing about The Dark is that Joker doesn't set up good enough situations that prove humans deep down are selfish people willing commit evil.

Of course the people on the Ferrys not killing eachother to prove that there worth saving is a great moment that makes it more satisfying when Batman wins the fight. However when you think about it the people by not detonating the bomb are just letting twice as many people die so I don't really see how that would deliver Jokers message effectivly.

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chris2kzombieki

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#44  Edited By chris2kzombieki  Online

@zafros13: quick note this is a very fun debate, glad you aren’t spouting insults even if I’m not agreeing with your points

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Zafros13

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#45  Edited By Zafros13

" issue with Peter going from happy to sad so fast is confusing"

Pacing issue, he's at his lowest point when he tells Aunt May about how he's responsible for Bens death. They need better transitioning because he was happy with not having powers in the scene before.

"but you don’t mention why it’s deeper, how it’s longer, you don’t even mention the theme of the entire movie."

I wrote an essay to you earlier which I think was the longest comment I have ever written on this site.

"and Harry each have their own arcs."

How does Harry have more of an arc then Batman,

"how it’s longer,"

It objectively has a longer runtime. Not inherently good but the point is that it's both denser and longer so the movie does more.

"In addition, Batman spying on people to get one bad guy is mentioned once and not brought up again."

That's a pretty major theme of the movie, remember when he was compared to Julia Caesar earlier in movie. I feel like you didn't read that super long comment I wrote. The movie tells us that he's not a hero so I don't why people criticize good writing because it's not heroic enough.

"The thing that makes me the most upset is that peoples who love the Dark Knight don’t actually mention it’s faults,"

I do here people complain some parts of Jokers plan is unrealistic.

"does not go through an arc."

He does, that said you don't need that to be a better movie. Like 2001 a space oddesy doesn't need it.

"I’ll wait but you still don’t actually give the entire theme of the movie, "

The movie doesn't have a singular theme it has a ton which would take hours to discuss. I covered some of them earlier though.

Would definitely recommend: https://youtu.be/EGjio-ejYlg

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chris2kzombieki

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@zafros13: I’ll touch on the point with Aunt May, which if you think about the theme I mentioned makes more sense. Peter and May just visited Bens grave, and May is basically blaming herself, now Peter knows the truth, he knows everything. So him feeling guilt plays with the choices theme I mentioned. You can watch Mays speech to Peter, which feels natural

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Zafros13

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#47  Edited By Zafros13

@chris2kzombieki: you explaining the theme doesn't matter. The transitioning is bad, one moment he's on the street with jolliness then he's depressed at the grave yard like 10 seconds later after not stopping a mugging, you need a scene in-between to spread things out. A scene that has a somber mood carrying the emotional throughline.

For TDK I like this video to. starting at "-27:40" counting time in reverse: https://youtu.be/r11xWMu9agE

Note: I disagree with him in regards to the movie's structure. I really like how TDK is structurally unique.

Also:

https://youtu.be/EQJSxBX67W4

Organized Chaos's video on TDK vs TWS was horrible even though he did end up giving TDK the win.

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@zafros13: So Peter not stopping a mugging is bad? Right ok. So here’s the full story, Peter, even after getting everything he wants, is still unhappy. He can’t sit back and watch people get hurt. This is shown with the mugging, and the fire. Peter chooses to ignore the first one, but it has a huge toll on him. He finally decides it’s enough and rescues the child in the building, the firefighters call him a hero, but we find out that there was another person in the building. Peter may have been seen as a hero, but he knows he could have done more. That’s not a passing issue. Peter watching a guy get beat up, and maybe about to get killed, and feeling bad about it is great. It shows that despite Peter having a normal life, he still cares for other people. He does in the end choose othered over himself

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Zafros13

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#49  Edited By Zafros13

@chris2kzombieki: "So Peter not stopping a mugging is bad? Right ok. So here’s the full story,"

Good scene character development and cinemetography speaking. Collection of scenes aren't paced well though. Which I've said two times before, it doesn't flow.

Considering what your saying has nothing to do with pacing I'll leave this so we're on the same page:

"Narrative pacing is the speed at which a story unfolds. Pacing can be thought of as the tempo of a narrative. Narrative pacing may result in a story being called slow or fast-paced. The pacing of a story typically fluctuates throughout its entire duration and may be fast in certain moments while slowing down in other moments."

"Pacing is the speed at which the plot moves and can be determined by the speed of camera shots, length of dialogue and movement. It's made up of absolutely everything, and you want to get a balanced pace and a consistent rhythm to ensure your movie moves smoothly."

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#50  Edited By Zafros13

I won't go to indepth but I'll put up my Spiderman 2 vs TDK comparisons below:

Themes: Spiderman 2 handles it's themes well in a way that branches off into topics that are interesting to think about however I do not think it can really compete with TDK, its very difficult to keep track and develop that quantity of themes, and they did it in such a way that they complimented eachother as opposed to feeling messy and unfocused.

Character work: I don't really know if Spiderman 2 is better written here but the movie focuses on it more so it makes more of an impression with audience. TDK characters on the otherhand are like chess peices that serve the greater narrative so it feels less personal.

Cinemetography and production design: TDK is certainly very competent in these departments, however I'd say astheyically I think Batman feels to militaristic. I think Sam Raimi is good with dynamic camera movments so his visuals leave a stronger impression. However Sm2 does not have visual storytelling advantage.

Soundtrack: I definitely think Han Zimmer is over hyped. I think the music cue for the final shot of TDK is great, however Spider-man 2 is stronger here, you have the iconic theme music, but also "Rain drops..." And "Hold On" fitting very well with there scene.

Villain: Otto has decent parrellels with protagonist. But Joker challenges Batman in a very interesting way, so Joker wins.

Performences: Heath has the best performance of these two movies. And I'd say TDK is generally higher.

Structure: Spiderman 2's structure feels to normal/basic for my taste. TDK has more unique structure which also goes along with the feeling of a long night which is fitting.

Pacing: As I've explained I have some issues with Spiderman 2's pacing because it moves the character to fast at one part. In TDK I think the Hong Kong fight drags a bit but maybe thats because I watched the movie like 25 times.

Rewatch value: With TDK you can really get a different experience out of every viewing because new aspects of the film stand out to you because there's so much to unpack, which is why the movie never got old for me even though it's one of my most rewatched movies. Because Spiderman 2 is a simpler movie I don't feel this as much.

Fight Scenes: Spiderman 2 has more viceral stuff, however I am hesitant to say it's better because on one hand Otto's durability is weird and also it feels weird that Peter never makes any indication that Otto used to be his friend. TDK is still very lacking in h2h coreography but Batcycle fight is good, I really like the tactical awareness in the construction site, and the final fight of the movie is a great scene even with it not having great coreography.

Plot: Spiderman 2 is more of a character journey then being a character that's going on an interesting plot, so I'd say TDK because there are more threads in the story.

Dialogue: TDK has more more memorable quotes however TDK has so much thematic development that it feels unrealistic for everyone to talk so philosophically and poetically, I personally wouldn't take issue with this though, it's the movies style, just because the movie feels grounded doesn't mean it has to have grounded dialougue. Sam Raimi in generally has strong dialogue which applies to Sm2 as well.

Editing: TDK has really cool cuts so it has the advantage here.

Conclusion: TDK is definitely better written and has a better screenplay, which I think is whats most important. Of course stuff like using visuals and music to tell a story is good but Sm2 does not have an advantage in that.