Ben Kenobi confirmed as prime (Obi Wan steelbook)

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#1 frozen  Moderator

Obi Wan’s prime: Blu Ray steelbook details

Having recently purchased the Obi Wan Kenobi blu ray, it is readily apparent that it establishes older Ben Kenobi as being in his prime

First and foremost, this steel book has audio commentary on the finale by Deborah Chow and extra special features that dive a little deeper into their respective fights

Let’s look at what we find

No Caption Provided

Obi Wan’s skill isn’t that rusty, per choreographer

Per JoJo Eusebio, Obi Wan in episode 3 of the TV series, is only “a bit” rusty in his skills

This is referring to the version of Obi Wan who is absolutely shit tier. It’s his force connection that is shot to shit. Not his technical skill. So this just goes to show that having the technical skill but little to none of the force connection is irrelevant

Pre pit Obi Wan “regained his power” and is “evenly matched” with pre pit Vader in duelling

Deborah Chow has elsewhere remarked that beginning-of-fight Obi Wan is “back at his FULL powers again”. Operative word on “full”, meaning back to Mustafar. Here, she again remarks that the start of fight Kenobi “has his power back”, which we know is full power.

https://streamable.com/j6wre5 (click this if below doesn’t show for you)

She also again emphasises that they’re very “evenly matched”, which she has also repeatedly said elsewhere in regards to their duelling. This sentiment is also re-affirmed by topps and insider. Any notion that pre pit Obi was “beating” Vader in duelling is just dead in the water at this point. See link/video below:

https://streamable.com/6mpkqh

Deborah Chow regards Obi Wan and Vader as > Palps?

“These two for me, were very evenly matched and I don’t think there is anyone else that would have a chance with either of them. So this is like watching two titans finally going at it” (talking about pre pit)

https://streamable.com/6mpkqh

Now one could argue Sidious isn’t encompassed under this, or that Deb doesn’t have authority. However OWK Sidious appears in the series, so her words should have weight over that particular iteration. Moreover, it’s possible she is referring to their ability as duelists - that nobody can come close to them in duelling. If so, this would either mean she regards Mustafar Kenobi / MFV / OWK Vader as >>> ROTS Sidious or Yoda. Or, she regards pre pit Kenobi as > MFK. After all, she does repeatedly refer to him as “prime Kenobi”

Regardless, one could argue that this is overriden by the wider verse. Even if this the case, it still stands that the team behind this show blatantly regards them as very potent

How is Ben Kenobi prime Kenobi?

As established above and in other blogs, pre pit Kenobi is “back at his full powers again” per Deb and various other sources. He is also “evenly matched” with Vader in duelling and overpowered by Vader in TK. Whereas post pit Vader “overpowers” Vader with an “avalanche of power” (Insider, From A Certain Point of View: ROTJ)

  • So pre pit Obi Wan, who is repeatedly stated to be back at full power, is evenly matched with Vader in duelling but inferior in pure TK
  • Whereas Post pit Obi Wan is verbatim stated to have “overpowered” Vader with the force and was also winning in duelling

The special features emphasise that he has greater clarity than ever before. When he’s in the hole, he’s having visual PTSD and has “lost his clarity” (he only loses his clarity and has PTSD while he’s buried. It doesn’t happen prior to this, and there’s 0 evidence that Kenobi is somehow nerfed by Vader trash talking him when he overpowers his grip over the boulder)

https://streamable.com/mk4u0r

Ewan emphasises that post pit Kenobi, who is actually able to beat Vader, is more skilled than pre pit Obi BECAUSE he’s “older”, “wiser” and “much more pure”

“He finds a slightly different fighting skill, something much more pure from somebody that’s wiser and older” (when he breaks out of the pit)

https://streamable.com/gvnid8

Pre pit Obi Wan, who is “back at his full powers again”, is “evenly matched” with Vader in duelling. But this post pit Kenobi who has more clarity has a different type of fighting skill that is superior because it’s “more pure” and “wiser”. Obi Wan finds serenity when he fights for the twins and this results in superior performance. Also notice how Ewan emphasises that his fighting skill is from someone who’s older - his age is actually emphasised as a positive, NOT a negative.

Ewan is VERY explicitly saying that increased wisdom and spiritual resolve (“pureness”) directly translates to greater skill. Meaning that Rebels/ANH Ben Kenobi, simply cannot be declined as a fighter. Especially considering he’s emphasised as having deepened his connection to the force and spiritual resolve to protect the twins. His “pureness” to protect the twins is what Filoni emphasises as unbeatable: “you can’t beat that”. Something which ROTS Obi doesn’t have

No Caption Provided

Some may probably hyper focus on the operative word “slightly”. However as said prior, the gap between pre and post pit in the force is greater than their duelling gap. Given how Obi Wan force blasted Vader and had him on his knees for 10 seconds while making him scream out in pain, and is then described as making Vader “helpless” per D+ audio description. Not to mention verbatim “overpowering” Vader in the force per insider

That said, there is an obvious duelling gap based on how Kenobi finds openings in Vader’s defences to force blast him, is able to use his own moves against him and is able to physically hold his arms in place with his force augmented strength

No Caption Provided

There’s a slight increase in technical skill and a clear one in force power and augmented stats. Circling back to Ewan, this “slightly different fighting skill” is regarded as superior due to the difference in performance

To put it more concisely - “Much more pure” is contextualised to his motivation, I.e. protecting the twins. Something which is inherent to the Ben Kenobi aesthetic, I.e. Filoni’s “you can’t beat that”. With the usage of “and” acting as a co-ordinating conjunction for the verbs “older” and “wiser”. Kenobi being “older” and “wiser” in conjunction with enhanced motive (pureness) is resultant in increased skill, not decreased

To further emphasise this, the producer of OWK re-affirms Ewan’s view by contrasting ROTS Obi Wan and ANH Obi Wan’s performances:

“Obi Wan’s character in A New Hope is so calm. He doesn’t feel like he has emotional stakes in the battle. He’s evolved beyond it already. And then you compare that to the end of episode 3, and that is all passion and fire. It feels like then there was a battle missing. In which we find out where the peace in Ben’s character in episode 4 comes from”

https://streamable.com/zpfbyu

Pre pit Obi Wan is essentially Mustafar Obi Wan, who can’t win against Vader. Whereas post pit Obi Wan has found clarity, has emptied his mind to let go of any attachment to Anakin and is fighting out of “pureness”, “wisdom” and “age”. Essentially the post Obi Wan is when he becomes much closer to the Ben Kenobi in Rebels and ANH. As his mindset is essentially the same (protecting the twins), which directly results in improved performance

For further emphasis, Ewan equates lightsaber skill with force skill. Meaning that Rebels/ANH Obi, who is more masterful in the force than ROTS or OWK, would also be more skilled

https://streamable.com/5anzc7

What does this mean for Rebels/ANH Obi Wan?

  • Essentially, any notion that Rebels/ANH Ben is declined cannot stand. The Obi Wan show is the bridge in which the shift from ROTS Kenobi to Ben Kenobi happens mid fight. ROTS Mustafar Kenobi gives Vader a tough fight but can’t win when it comes to the force. Whereas the more “pure”, “wiser” and “older” Kenobi who busts out of the pit is the Ben Kenobi who can kick the shit out of Vader
  • At the end of the series, he’s referred to as “stronger than ever” and per Filoni and other sources, only further deepens his connection to the force and becomes wiser. Which would only lead to a further increase in his power and duelling ability, as well as technical skill
  • This blu ray makes 0 mention of any decline on Vader or Kenobi’s part and it seems clear that the intent on ANH has shifted.

Other cool tidbits

They mention that Kenobi going for his chest panel helped. But I feel this was already known

The choreography with the stunt double is 100x better

https://streamable.com/4ckxaq

The intro of the ANH duel frames it as an epic clash of two titans - a far cry from the depiction of old man vs cripple. It’s also cool as hell

https://streamable.com/5607mx

Conclusion

  • ROTS Obi and other PT titans aren’t really relevant anymore. The Kenobi series has radically shifted the intent on where Kenobi’s true prime is
  • The ANH duel has new meaning now, and old 2014/15 sourcebooks that frame Ben Kenobi as weakened are one shotted

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si198ghi

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I believe Old Ben being prime was already pretty blatant, but nonetheless, very nice work Frozen!

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A_FINE_EDITION

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Good stuff. I've always considered ANH Obi-Wan his prime tbh. Just seemed right.

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Ieatnettles

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#4  Edited By Ieatnettles

Agreed, more confirmation Ben is prime, good thread

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KFVnegs

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#5  Edited By KFVnegs

Huge W, Ben Kenobi having declined as a combatant is a major flaw that needed to be retconned

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Cheth

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Interesting to see that there's more information to be found in the Blue-ray copy, neat find

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#8 Eredin12  Online

@ieatnettles said:

Agreed, more confirmation Ben is prime, good thread

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RedSithDisciple

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Good to have further confirmation on this

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SonOfDarkness

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#10  Edited By SonOfDarkness  Online

Agreed. Except the Vader he fought in OWK was emotionally conflicted and weakened, which is further confirmed by the director commentary.

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#11 frozen  Moderator
@eredin12 said:

@ieatnettles said:

Agreed, more confirmation Ben is prime, good thread

Yeah, also Chow’s quote on nobody standing a chance against either Obi and Vader is really GOAT, Ngl. I think it’s in the context of a pure duel. It could mean that pre pit Obi is above MFK.

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gioppy37

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Great analysis as always. Always thought that ANH was Ben’s prime, but it’s nice to have more confirmations.

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calclord

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MaulSmacker

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Very Nice

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NotTheGodMadara

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Honestly I agreed with this even before this new info, Ben is shown to be a whole 4 stomp levels above Ahsoka with how he easily killed maul

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Eredin12

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#16 Eredin12  Online

@frozen: Yea that quote is also great for sure.

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Supreme101

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Nice

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Steve40L

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I always love Starwars scans because it's stuff that writers said. Intent is so important in this community which honestly makes sense given how vague the actual source material is at times.

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The_Nitro

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#19  Edited By The_Nitro

Excellent blog as always .

Yeah this is a more round up version than the explanation that you me and mero yesterday.

This is soild and you have proof to back it up so nice

Tough I think MFK is => To Pre Pit Kenobi due to the fact he has a slight advantage due to being more skilled

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Sav0

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Agreed, more confirmation Ben is prime, good thread

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death4bunnies

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#21 death4bunnies  Moderator  Online

10/10 thread… I see no discrepancy’s that would matter at all.

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ShockMcuWaxIf

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I am here for the read

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RudyGiuliani

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#23  Edited By RudyGiuliani

@death4bunnies Shouldn't this be in feat and analysis forum given this is literally an analysis of Obi-wan's power and fighting abilities (feats) against vader?

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/feats-and-analysis-2311599/feats-and-analysis-guideline-2337986/

What is Forum For?

This forum is for any sort of of discussion pertaining to battles that don't actually involve a battle. This can range from analyzing new feats that have come out to comparing attacks of different characters. It is fairly lose but basically anything that involves discussing or comparing feats should belong here.

Power Scaling/Power Level

Any sort of discussion regarding a character or even a Verse's power level. Also any explanations of power scaling within a verse. This also includes the cosmology discussions.

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RockSalt

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#24  Edited By RockSalt

Interesting and mostly correct, at least in relation to ANH Ben's developed force connection.

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#25 frozen  Moderator
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CryoLancer47

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Good work. Always nice to see Old Ben upscaling.

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frozen

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#27 frozen  Moderator

Not sure why this was locked. Unlocking.

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RockSalt

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@frozen:Not sure if you forget to post or mention about years of meditation being an explicit contributer to Old Ben's power growth. A noted reason for why Rebels Ben stomps Rebels Maul.

Absoluetly Everything You Need To Know About Star Wars: Updated and Expanded
Absoluetly Everything You Need To Know About Star Wars: Updated and Expanded

To be a 1000% honest and nuanced, this blog confirms my suspicions of ANH Kenobi being >/= ROTS Dooku by small margin. All evidence points to Kenobi just about surpassing Tyranus' prime by this point. I still have Ben Sub ROTS-ESB Yoda. Even Obi-wan admits this, but he is still a legit contender.

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#30 frozen  Moderator

@rocksalt:

I disagree with the Dooku comment but I’m sure you know that lol. Glad we agree on old Ben being prime

And yeah I’ve seen that scan before regarding his meditation. Great source, I think it just serves to reinforce the statements in the OP

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ExiledUhu

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I genuinely doubt any writer would ever write Sidious being beaten in a duel by Vader or Kenobi. Then again, this is Disney, so who knows at this point.

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Aristeaus

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Been saying it for years.

I genuinely doubt any writer would ever write Sidious being beaten in a duel by Vader or Kenobi. Then again, this is Disney, so who knows at this point.

Lucas had ANH Ben = Palps. So... yeah.

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ExiledUhu

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@Aristeaus: Retconned as early as 1985, before Sidious even made his first physical appearance.

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Aristeaus

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@Aristeaus: Retconned as early as 1985, before Sidious even made his first physical appearance.

That wasn't your statement though. You doubted any writer, and Lucas would certainly qualify, that Kenobi could beat Sidious.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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i’ve always argued this and that it didn’t make sense for him to get weaker with age. so while we’re on topic, no more arguing that force users start to weaken as they grow out of their physical prime. it’s nonsensical considering their physical abilities come from their connection to the force which for the most part never stops growing.

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nassergrant19

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i’ve always argued this and that it didn’t make sense for him to get weaker with age. so while we’re on topic, no more arguing that force users start to weaken as they grow out of their physical prime. it’s nonsensical considering their physical abilities come from their connection to the force which for the most part never stops growing.

Is this important for a certain agenda?👀

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ExiledUhu

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@Aristeaus: Even then, in the early drafts of ROTJ Sidious fought a reincarnated Ben, ghost Yoda and Luke at the same time and won. So not sure where you get Kenobi beating Sidious from. Definitely not from Lucas, as soon as he actually decided how powerful he wanted Sidious to be.

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Aristeaus

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@Aristeaus: Even then, in the early drafts of ROTJ Sidious fought a reincarnated Ben, ghost Yoda and Luke at the same time and won. So not sure where you get Kenobi beating Sidious from. Definitely not from Lucas, as soon as he actually decided how powerful he wanted Sidious to be.

Again, since you have such a hard time understanding... Lucas literally stated as of ANH Ben = Palps

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gioppy37

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@exileduhu: interesting, where did you find this information? That‘s pretty cool, ngl

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NOHOOUR

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star wars be doing more powerscaling than dbz

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ExiledUhu

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@gioppy37 said:

@exileduhu: interesting, where did you find this information? That‘s pretty cool, ngl

Sorry for the late reply. Below is the original first draft of the final fight in the ROTJ script. It has some other interesting tidbits as well, such as Sidious casually choking out Vader.

88. HAD ABBADON – THE TOMB’S PRISON

Luke lies unconscious on a small island in the middle of a hot lava lake. A hot wind blows across his face and wakes him. He looks around at his hostile surroundings and suddenly becomes aware of another person sitting behind him. He turns on the intruder with Jedi speed. The shrouded figure doesn’t move or even look up.

LUKE: Ben…

Slowly, the hooded figure looks up, revealing his face. It is Ben Kenobi in the flesh.

BEN: I could no longer stay in the netherworld.

LUKE: But Yoda said…

BEN: …that I would become one with the Force and choose not to return to the material world? That your anger prevented me from…

LUKE: But I’m not angry…not anymore…I understand why you didn’t tell me about my father. I do.

BEN: I know. And I am here to help you destroy the Emperor, and…your father.

LUKE: I can’t.

Suddenly Yoda appears beside Ben.

YODA:You can and you will…I in the netherworld, and Obi-Wan at your side. Help you we will.

96. INT. MAIN HALLWAY TO THRONE ROOM

Vader’s footsteps echo through the vast, long hallway. The Royal Guards that line the walls watch him with great fear. Finally, he reaches the massive doors that open on to the throne room. The two guards on either side of the doors move to block the Dark Lord.

1ST GUARD:I’m sorry Lord Vader, the Emperor does not wish…

Both of the guards are stopped in their tracks as they drop their weapons and grab for their throats in a vain attempt to breathe. They drop gasping to the floor as the giant doors slide open and the Dark Lord enters the Emperor’s chamber.

97. INT. THRONE ROOM – HAD ABBADON

Vader storms into the throne room and marches right up to where the Emperor is sitting. The Emperor slowly raises his head to stare at the Dark Lord.

VADER: Where is he?

EMPEROR: Safe…There is no need for you to worry. I will take good care of him…

VADER: It is for me to train my son…you must…

The Emperor raises his hand, and Vader’s breathing suddenly stops. The Dark Lord struggles at his controls, attempting to regain his air supply. He chokes.

EMPEROR: You forget yourself…Lord Vader. I will tolerate no more discussion on the subject. The boy is mine to train. Your place is with the fleet.

Vader collapses on the floor and the Emperor lowers his hand. Vader starts breathing again and rises to a kneeling position.

VADER: Forgive me, master.

EMPEROR: The Rebels will soon begin their attack. You must be ready for them. For now that I have all of them in one place, they will be crushed once and for all.

VADER: Yes, my master.

EMPEROR: Now take your leave, for I have your son to attend to.

Vader rises and exits the throne room, and the giant door slides closed behind him.

112. INT. HAD ABBADON – TOMB’S DUNGEON

Luke stands with a start and begins to look around. Ben slowly stands also.

LUKE: Did you feel that?

BEN: Yes. It’s the Emperor. He’s moving this way…

LUKE: …and so is my father.

BEN: He is following the Emperor. Yoda!

YODA’S VOICE: I am between them and the Force…cloud their minds, I will.

BEN: Luke, you must take them on one at a time. Together, they will destroy you…

The Emperor enters the cavern and looks across to the boiling lava lake. He sees Ben and is surprised.

EMPEROR: So you are not dead after all, Obi-Wan. I thought I felt your presence in the netherworld

So, you have returned. But you have failed…the boy is mine, and will soon embrace the Dark Side.

YODA:It is you who have failed, my old friend.

The Emperor turns around to see the shimmering image of Yoda standing before him.

EMPEROR:You!

YODA: Evil one, this will be the last day of your existence.

EMPEROR: Your presence in the netherworld can do me no harm. And neither can this boy or this old man.

YODA: Your fear is strong…overestimate your abilities, you do.

Vader steps out of the shadows and stands next to the Emperor.

VADER: My Master, they must be destroyed. Now it is too late to turn the boy.

Luke looks at his father, then reaches out and Vader’s lasersword leaps off the Dark Lord’s belt and into the young Jedi’s hand. Luke ignites the lasersword as the Emperor pulls a sword out of his sleeve and tosses it to Vader.

EMPEROR: Destroy them.

Vader’s sword ignites and he starts to move toward his son. Luke backs away.

120. INT. HAD ABBADON – TOMB’S DUNGEON

Vader brings his lasersword down hard on his son, but Luke is able to block his father’s blow. A quick sword exchange, and Luke forces Vader back. Another exchange, and the Dark Lord recovers, pushing the young Jedi onto a small rock surrounded by the bubbling pool of lava. Ben and the Emperor watch from the far side of the cavern.

EMPEROR: He is every inch his father.

BEN: He is stronger than you imagine, and has many allies.

EMPEROR: Allies? If they are all as you, I have no concern. Once the boy has killed his father, I will have him destroy you…

BEN: Perhaps, but it will not save you. I have foreseen your death at the hands of Skywalker.

EMPEROR: But I have not, therefore it cannot be.

BEN: Unless you can no longer see…

Luke fights back with all of his strength and drives his father back across the tiny rocks. A crashing blow by Luke causes Vader to lose his balance and fall onto one of the small rock islands, his sword hand landing in the molten lava. His sword and part of his metal are melting away. Vader backs away from his son, expecting the death blow at any moment. But Luke hesitates as Ben and the Emperor watch.

EMPEROR: Finish it, boy! It is the power of the Dark Side that you feel…

Luke lowers his lasersword.

LUKE: I cannot. I will not turn to the Dark Side. I only fight in self-defense, not to do your Emperor’s bidding.

With that, Luke extinguishes the lasersword and tosses it to Ben.

LUKE:If he is to be destroyed, you must do it.

131. INT. HAD ABBADON – TOMB’S DUNGEON

Lord Vader struggles to stand as Ben prods the Emperor onto the same small island. Luke stands behind Ben and watches.

EMPEROR: You have become old and weak, Lord Vader. I will take care of this.

The Emperor turns his back on Vader and faces the old Jedi, raising his hands in the air, which causes lightning to strike at Ben.

LUKE: BEN, NO!

Luke leaps in front of his mentor, and raises his hand in defense. The bolts are deflected by an invisible shield. Wherever a bolt hits, the image of Yoda momentarily appears at the point of impact.

EMPEROR: Your Master in the netherworld cannot protect you for long. You will turn to me or die.

The lightning bolts become more intense, and Ben is knocked unconscious. Luke drops to his knees under the pressure.

EMPEROR: This is the power of the Dark Side that you deny. Your strength will never match it.

Luke struggles to remain conscious against the superior power of the Emperor.

LUKE: Yoda…

EMPEROR: Obi-Wan foresaw my destruction at your hands, young Skywalker, but it seems his vision was clouded…Perhaps there is still another Skywalker. Why can I not see, could the netherworld have influenced my perception? Another Skywalker…your father!

The Emperor turns around to see Lord Vader flying at him. The lightning bolts around Luke disappear as Vader hits the Emperor, knocking them both into the fiery lake of lava. The hideous screams of the Emperor are soon muted. Luke struggles to his feet and stares at the spot where his enemy and his father disappeared into the cauldron of molten rock. Ben puts his hand on the young Jedi’s shoulder.

BEN: It is in Yoda’s hands now.