Batman's Knowledge Set

Question for all of you.

Do you guys see Batman as:

a) An individual who is supremely gifted and has gained total mastery in virtually every known discipline

or

b) An individual who specializes in deduction, criminal psychology, and forensics (and often delegates advanced tech, etc. to other individuals)

Which type do you perceive Batman as, and which archetype do you prefer?

Combination of both, but if I had to choose I would say A).

A.

He has built Brother Eye (a complex android), built a cloning machine that can also store and implant memories, built a teleporter, can figure out alien technology at a glance, built multiple vehicles and aircraft, hacked NASA, built robots, tried to reverse engineer Frankenstein's DNA to resurrect someone, has built multiple battle suits/armors, has built advanced communication devices, made a cure for the Man-Bat serum, and more. He simply has too many feats in too many realms of science to consider him as only being specialized in deduction and whatnot. Biology, physics, all types of engineering, history, math, computer science, tactics, psychology.... He knows it all. Haters want to view him as mainly being a genius when it comes to tactics and figuring out criminals' plans, because they don't think he should be too smart, but the truth is that he is so much more than that.

What jayc1324 said.

I know how the comics often depict him as A, but I don't like the idea of Batman having total mastery over virtually everything, I just find it cheesy.

In most instances I prefer to think of Batman as not being this inherently gifted wunderkind like Lex Luthor or Reed Richards. Generally when we see a young Bruce (Hush, Zero Year etc.), he's a gifted and precocious child/teen, but certainly not to the degree that somebody would expect him to become one of the most intelligent men on Earth.

He's crafted his mind into one of the best on the planet via intense discipline and an iron will. Earlier in his career Bruce should have "extensive" knowledge of various disciplines, specifically, I'd say forensics, psychology, criminology, computer science, biochemistry and engineering, each discipline to the level of a master's degree say. Extensive, but not encyclopedic, I would imagine that a professor in any of these subjects would have far more knowledge than he does, and at this point he would have to be more heavily reliant on Lucius Fox.

By the time he's a 40 year old veteran, his knowledge will have increased dramatically as he continues to study and adapt, to the point that he would now have vast knowledge in each of these subjects and extensive knowledge on others, such as linguistics, semiotics, and a good general knowledge. I don't think Batman should ever be a walking encyclopedia, which is sort of how I imagine somebody like Lex Luthor. Intellectually speaking, his primary weapons are his deductive capabilities, cunning and creativity.

I've never really liked the idea of him being a legitimate master of 127 martial arts either. By the time he's a veteran crime-fighter, he should be proficient in most martial arts, and know basically every style/form well enough to know how to efficiently counter them, but he should only be a true master in say, a dozen martial arts, an elite fighter in many more and the rest, just a good core knowledge on so as to counter them as I said. What's more important is how he integrates and implements them fluidly and adaptively.

That kind of OP "I've mastered every martial art known to man" should be reserved for characters like Lady Shiva and Danny Rand, who are singularly focussed on that and are prodigiously gifted.

I'm not saying this is how it is, I'm saying this is how I would write him.

Two very different takes on this, interesting!

I prefer writers who play up his martial arts prowess rather than writing him as a very durable brawler *cough King *cough. Also I prefer him as a detective rather than a scientist.

@rogueshadow: Current Bruce certainly doesn't know 127 styles or anywhere close to it, so he should be closer to your vision of him (albeit significantly less skilled than what you describe). It's the pre-FP Batman that was a master of every form of combat, along with Cass, Sa'ar, Prometheus, Shiva and David Cain.

A

Great post.

@morpheus_: Where's it written that he doesn't still know that many? Rebirth Bruce is New 52 Bruce is pre-Flashpoint Bruce.

I agree with B. I don't think Batman should be on par with Luthor in sheer IQ and knowledge. Guys like Luthor and Reed have outright superhuman intelligence. They're basically freaks of nature. Bruce's advantage isn't in being so gifted, it's in being driven, and also being an underhanded, unpredictable asshole.

For instance Bane is a natural prodigy with an eidetic memory. Bruce isn't a prodigy, his intelligence was learned. Bane vs Bruce is instinct vs practice.

This is an entirely new universe where numerous things in Batman's life have unfolded in different ways than they did pre-FP. We already have conflicting versions of how Bruce recruited Jason, what happened in Under the Hood, when Dick became Nightwing, Cassandra's appearance in Batman and Robin Eternal is obviously impossible to reconcile with her debut in No Man's Land, David Cain is Mother's stooge as opposed to being affiliated with the LoA and on and on.

There is 0 reason to believe this version is identical to pre-FP Bruce. As for why he doesn't know that number of styles, because it has never been proven that he does.

He's not identical but I think some things are the same. He isn't entirely new either. There are a bunch of references to older stories

As I have said, people don't want him to be a genius in all areas because they think it makes him overpowered, but that is part of what I like about Batman. He is supposed to be basically the perfect human, great at everything except emotional intelligence basically. It'd be pretty lame to have a Batman who wasn't a scientist, martial artist, detective, and everything in between. It is part of his appeal. I wouldn't want a Superman who couldn't lift planes, and I don't want a Batman who can't build ridiculous technology. And while he is on par with Lex, it's not like he's actually a better scientist or smarter than him. Lex actually made some improvements on his Hellbat suit before he went to fight Darkseid, so Batman being smart doesn't make other geniuses useless.

But if you want a weaker, less capable Batman, I'd recommend checking out Batman: Earth One.

Great posts from both @jayc1324 and @rogueshadow. Pre Crisis Batman would have fitted into B much more closely. He definitely specialised in deduction, criminal psychology and forensics in his crime fighting and there were times when Batman didn't know everything about a certain scientific discipline. His physical condition was peak human and he was a well trained fighter in an unknown number of martial arts. In the Post Crisis and New 52 periods, Batman started becoming more of the 'Bat-God' he's known for in the modern era. He became experts in criminology, scientific and technological developments, his physical feats became borderline low superhuman and there were more references to him mastering 127 martial arts or mastering every unarmed fighting style known to man. That's when Batman fell into the A category and started being regarded as OP. I don't mind Batman being a master martial artist but him giving Lex a run for his money in the intellect and technology department has become a bit much.

@jayc1324: Most things have happened in some way, shape or form but I'd say it's clear their sequence, details and even people involved are very different. Therefore, Bruce himself is different to a degree that we cannot use skills and abilities between pre-FP and N52/Rebirth interchangeably. JPV didn't meet Batman up until recently in this continuity but if we presume Sword of Azrael/Knightfall/Knightquest/KnightsEnd have happened, then they all played out in a very different way than they did before. The examples are too many to ignore, IMO.

@morpheus_: Damn, I have a living legend responding to one of my threads. Put me in, coach...

@the_magister: Haha, it is an interesting thread. Kudos.

@morpheus_: I get where your coming from, but a very similar thing happened when The New 52 happened. Many minor details shifted/changed in Batman's history/lore... one of those things not being how many martial arts he had mastered). Now Rebirth has happened, and yes a few things have once again been tweaked/changed, but nothing has been stated... whether implied or otherwise... about how many different forms of martial arts he currently knows.

@gracetrack: Batman has gotten an entry in DC's Encyclopedia and the Batman Character Encyclopedia regarding the N52 and all that was stated was that he is an expert martial artist, while I can name at least three separate entries of Bruce pre-FP that explicitly refer to him as a master of all forms. Not to mention on panel confirmation from Batgirl v1 where he exhibits them for Cass when she lost her body reading. It's a slippery slope, and writers like Snyder, Tynion or King surely don't seem to hold him in as high esteem in martial arts prowess as Moench, Dixon, Brubaker or Morrison. He's more of a physical tank than a refined combatant.

@morpheus_: Well yes I agree that the newer extracanonical material doesn't confirm it like some of the older stuff does. I have both the updated DC Encyclopedia and a New 52 Batman character guide, neither of which confirm or deny it, sadly. Some of the older guides/encyclopedias don't affirm it either, mind you.

And you are right, Snyder and King don't put it on display in their books, which stinks.

Comics Depict him as A

I'd prefer him as B

He'd be better if he was AB

@lvenger: thanks!

My personal take is that Batman is more of A) that evolved from being B). His best stories are likely when he is and will be a hybrid or an AB). I think the thing with Batman is that as comics evolve and grow, so does he. Some people enjoy a less overpowered Batman and from my experience that have read and seen Batman's older comics and stories, especially the classic Detective Comics.

Meanwhile there are what I see as more modern fans who enjoy more of the A) Batman who is seen as a bit more overpowered. After all this is a guy who is supposed to hang and beat high tier characters, because he's the Batman. I think people enjoy A) Batman because they can relate or at least aspire to a human who built himself up to not only challenge these god-like beings, but even surpass them. I think those who prefer B) Batman relate more to a character who seems to them more believable and someone who protects their home with a very special set of skills that they have honed, trained, and mastered.

My personal preference is a hybrid Batman and I think his comics can easily reflect that. I would love it if Detective Comics took a more mystery/thriller feel to it even with the team and focused on them solving crimes and developing characters and skills. Meanwhile Batman could have more of the A) batman who performs superhuman feats and has amazing gadgets and skills that give us the shock and awe that we love to see from Batman taking down Superman. Just my personal take. Great Thread!

@darthjhawk: Nice post dude