Batman V Superman Vs. Justice League, lets end this.

Is the fact you trying to pretend it is illogical to like BvS when one of the main character, Superman, is just moping around and making the audience bored as hell in this long ass movie. Not to mention the fact that is too convoluted for its own good and most of the motivation is hard to grasp. I mean granted more power to you if the flaw with BvS is less of hindrance compare to JL flaws. I mean I like Suicide Squad better than BvS because of the cast, not because of the direction (which SS was atrocious). Whatever, but the fact that you calling other people idiots is annoying, although is the internet what did I expect.

Is the fact you trying to pretend it is illogical to like BvS when one of the main character, Superman, is just moping around and making the audience bored as hell in this long ass movie.

I am not pretending that it is illogical to like BvS though... I liked BvS. He also was not moping around. Did you even see this movie? Maybe you were bored with the film... bored to sleep because you don't seem to really know much about it.

Not to mention the fact that is too convoluted for its own good and most of the motivation is hard to grasp.

Are you sure? What motivation are you struggling with? I am pretty sure I can not only spoon feed the plot to you, but I can make it look way too simple and just damn silly for someone to fail to grasp.

I mean granted more power to you if the flaw with BvS is less of hindrance compare to JL flaws. I mean I like Suicide Squad better than BvS because of the cast, not because of the direction (which SS was atrocious).

Ooooooookay?

Whatever, but the fact that you calling other people idiots is annoying, although is the internet what did I expect.

I did not call you an idiot though.

While I do think you raise a valid grievance, I do not see how this makes BvS objectively worse than the mess that was JL. Having reached for something better and falling short is preferred to never aspiring to anything at all. JL's story is far more superficial than BvS was. It was practically a Michael Bay Transformers movie for all its depth. Sure, it didn't try to explore philosophical or political aspects of the Superman mythos but really, it seems that BvS wasn't trying to either in these particular mentioned plot points, as you admitted yourself, it was all just a Luthor plot to tear Superman down. I can understand if you felt cheated by Luthor's reveal but honestly, that doesn't really take much away from what had been seen up until that point. The civilians and their reactions to Superman were just as real and valid as Superman himself, irrespective of Luthor's meddling. The Senate was troubled by Superman, even if Luthor fabricated some of the events that led to that concern. The citizens protesting exhibited actual, not staged, fear. The people in peril were displaying honest desperation and viewed Superman as a nearly divine being. Snyder may not have drilled to the bedrock of these concepts as you may have wanted, but some of them were still there. They were tangible. Which is more than can be said of Whedon's failed attempt to recreate Avengers.

Also, I take offense to you calling WW garbage! :'(

This is an intellectual debate, in an obvious troll thread. Jokes on OP.

Both were disappointing. BvS is better though, JL is a total mess.

I'll always vote for ambition and passion over generic, pandering movies so BvS all day. However, if WB releases a "Snyder" cut of Justice League, I think it would be better than BvS.

Well even looking at BVS as objectively as possible, somehow removing the characters from the mythology surrounding them and people's expectations of them, the movie itself has a ridiculous amount of flaws that would earn it a bad grade on its own

Both sucked

BvS was a much better movie, IMO.

That is not what is being discussed though. The question of whether BvS is a bad film is a separate conversation entirely. This is a question of what is a better film.

BVS didn't entertain me worth a damn. It confused and angered me. At least JL gave me a good time in the theater

Do you only measure the quality of a film by how much enjoyment you got out of it? Ex Machina was a brilliant film but I took no joy in watching it. Transformers are thoroughly enjoyable movies but they are horrible films with the depth of a spoon. JL is exactly the same. If you are willing to turn off your brain, silencing any thought while watching the film, then sure, I can see how it could give you a good time. Porn does that too, but I couldn't rate any porn as a quality film.

Also, how can anyone be confused by BvS?

DC's plan: "get gradually worse with each movie so that people appreciate the last."

I'm sure most people appreciated MoS after seeing BvS, lol. I'm sure we were all nostalgic for BvS after Suicide Squad. After JL, I appreciate MoS, BvS and Wonder Woman more than I did before JL.

Lets be honest here, we both know what Snyder wanted this movie to be and he made no qualms about it when talking it up before it came out. Bashing the formula of Marvel and taking inspiration from Books like TDKR. The man always has interviews in which he talks the talk but he fails to walk the walk. Snyder stated that in the movie SUperman's actions would get twisted into negatives (ala Fox News). That entire scenario was not in the movie, since Lex had to fabricate therefor it's not a twisting of Superman's actions but him getting framed. Not to mention the whole tagline about the world having to decide what hero it truly need.Even CW did the whole "world against Superheroes" better.

I'll give you that the praise is real, but the public's divided view on Superman actually adds to my frustration. Let's assume that not all the public parts were motivated by Luthor. The people that hate him are just those that don't trust him. He states in the beginning that he doesn't care what the Senate has to say. Superman spent most of the time in the movie being miffed and depressed by that. About 4 times the guy needed to have a pep talk by my count which made him worse than TV Flash. Which one was by a ghost... so this Superman is straight up Crazy. I get that Superman is going through some hard shit, but he takes haters worse than Kanye West or Justin Bieber. Had there been a legitimate issue, both these problems would have gone away. Superman's anger and frustration would have been more valid since he is dealing with a real issue, and the public outcry would also feel more valid as opposed to blind distrust. I can get behind blind distrust, but that can't be all. You need a varied sense of reasons to be against Superman. Superman just getting rail roaded while he doesn't do much as a "protagonist". He just moves around cus the plot demands it while never really making a choice or having an impact on the story. Only time he does anything is when he kills Doomsday. One of the reasons I say Batman go the better treatment (keep in mind, I'm not a Batman guy) is because he did more and his hatred building up to the fight was real. Superman on the other hand had to be forced to fight.

But without wandering into other flaws in this movie (since this is long enough as it is). It being faked highlights the movies short comings while also giving weak reasons for his depressing character if we took the mobs as a separate entity that hates him for other reasons, since as you state there was praise but this Superman only focused on the negative. And he's supposed to be "a symbol of hope". He was way more of a character in MoS and had more sides to him. Superman simply reacted to everything and had no part to play in the movie, aside from the occasional Bruce Wayne arguments. I don't think we should praise a movie that reaches for more and fails in almost every way. Failure is failure

JL... is just JL. It got a passable score on an easy level.

As for Wonder Woman. I thought she was pointless fan service whose entire character was misused and only purpose was to give Batman more screen time than he deserved. JL further points out the misuse of her when they state her people have a history with Steppenwolf. BvS decided to give the honor of wanting to form the league and knowing about an incoming threat to Batman, despite that they have Wonder Woman right freakin there. It's like making Batman put out a fire when you have a water bender in the room. Instead Wonder Woman is there to flirt with Batman and find a photo.

Don't understand it lol. Avengers was the epitome of a mess and no one complained.

That movie was full of swiss cheese-

The Chitauri race ALL shutting down like the droids in The Phantom Menace when the mothership explodes

Black Widow and Hawkeye are able to easily take down dozens of aliens with H2H or shooting them with arrows and bullets..... So why was the military incapable of handling the situation?

Hawkeyes computer virus arrow.. and how the F%$# did he get the arrow tip plug insert to match up with the computer???

The Avengers talking to each other from all the way across the city

The scene when they were being attacked by Loki's servants and Agent Maria Hill takes an advanced grenade to the face, gets up 10 seconds later and shoots a guy in the head in one shot to save Fury. She ended up with just scratch on her right cheek

Too much to list. AOU was 10x worse

Both are bad but BVS was worse.

BVS was bad but it wasn't just bad it also wasn't enjoyable at all. It was uncomfortable for 3 hours. I think even if JL has less depth than BVS which I'll admit it does (not a point against it) it was at least a fun ride the whole way through and that alone makes it superior.

BVS confused me with its odd take on heroes and characters that are well established in American myth. Batman a murderer, Superman a (whiny) fugitive, Jimmy Olsen a cadaver, Lex Luthor a Jim Carry impression and Lois Lane a tool.

Superman and Batman out of this lineup were devoid of any real likable traits and yet I'm supposed to like one of them and ultimately root for one. I'm confused which one is the movie behind? It keeps depicting both as essentially wrong. Superman is an all powerful being who is met with extreme love or hate at every corner and is put on trial. A buncha terrible things happen that he's somehow blamed for. And his efforts for saving people are looked at through a lens of mistrust.

Batman is an extreme cynic who is implied to have had a lot of development before the film happens. He's running around getting low level crooks knocked off because...? Robin has already come and gone and Joker already exists in another film which really skips over a large part of the canon. WTF is happening? I just met this guy.

I'm confused at the extremely convoluted Luthor scheme, that if even one butterfly flapped its wing the wrong way it would go belly up, actually working. (This was so bad that Justice League Action Parodied it) I'm confused at so many other things in the film it was hard to enjoy. The movie just obnoxiously expects you to be familiar with some of the mythos and then goes "LOL but it's different" every time it's brought up.

I just... oh my god this film makes me mad lol

I think JL is the better film because the plot was simpler and easy to follow, The action scenes were great, Superman being himself on screen was fun and a great relief and the other characters were all likable as well. It had its flaws but I think JL is a better film. It played it safer and stuck to conventions that work and overall is better for it.

JL was ok at best and i have mixed feelings on what i saw there. It was too simplistic and idiotic to enjoy. Whedon and Warner execs are idiots.

BvS was masterpiece imo. I will put Watchmen higher but BvS is second best DC movie and the best DCEU one.

I had a good time when watching Justice League.

I... did not when watching Batman v Superman.

This statement includes the Ultimate Cut.

BVS was a truly miserable experience, up there with Transformers 2. Only difference was that BVS had less people and the family in front of me were arguing with each other another cause the dad had convinced them to watch BVS instead of something else. The kid seemed to be having a good time though, lol.

Superman's frustration remains valid, even if there was a puppet-master orchestrating the events. He was still experiencing that frustration in response to the happenings that he was witness to. Additionally, I also hear this moping argument often and it is a bit tedious because it is wildly exaggerated. If you don't want to have an actual discussion about the film and instead just want to drag it through the dirt for giggles, I guess there is nothing to be had from the exchange.

WW was not misused in BvS. I certainly think so in JL but you can't fault BvS for plot developments that did not exist until years after the film was made. That is entirely unfair.

BvS Is a better film(Ultimate Cut Wise) over JL. JL is incoherent at times and there is 0 attempt at any real depth. While it's a "fun" film, it being fun shouldn't be the winning argument as movies like Schindler's List & Prisoner's aren't "fun" to watch(unless you're a sicko), but they are clearly top notch films. BvS is a very ambitious take on The Dark Knight Returns & Death Of Superman.

Why do people look at BvS's faults through a microscope? Hate the movie all you want, but the second you start picking the film apart on fundamental levels, i'm going to to make a mental note of how you react to other films. If you don't extend that same level of criticism for other movies i'm just going to assume you're hating on the movie because you don't like it. The majority of users who trash BvS fall in this category. Only a handful let their dislike/hate be just that without trying to justify it by being unnecessarily unfair to the movie.

Schindler's List is one of the few movies to actually make me cry as a grown ass man. I had to turn it off on the first watch because it was just too much.

@farkam: I think John Q with Denzel is one of the first time I just balled as a grown man in a movie theater.

Ever since its inception the DCEU has demanded to be taken seriously. Serious films have always been meticulously analyzed. You should feel proud if anything.

@farkam: That's the thing about this "double standard" conspiracy or whatever. A super serious, super important movie is going to be more meticulously analysed than a movie that's just aspiring to be a good time.

There is no double-standard. MCU movies succeed with critics because they triumph at what they set out to be, meanwhile DCEU films fail at being the "oh so serious and mature intellectual alternative". If you want what DCEU pretends to be then watch the Nolan movies or Bryan Singer X-flicks.

Good point actually.

However, I think that desire to be taken seriously is more on a thematic level. And, anyways, I think a lot of the problems people find with these films outside the characterizations are nitpicks in the scheme of things. Like, "why didn't this character do that" type of things. I mean, lets be honest, you can pick apart the Nolan movies just as much as BvS and MoS but people fixate on these films like they specially fail on fundamental scripting levels.

I like the Extended Cut too. I still watch it every other month or so. I will not be able to do the same with the theatrical cut of JL. I probably won't buy it until it hits the "Under $8" in iTunes. I also agree with your point. It was one I tried to raise in my discussion with others here. Fun is just one criteria by which the quality of a film could be measured, but it is hardly the only or even the most important.

Very much agreed. I definitely feel that there are different measuring sticks used for these two movies.

Well I kind of rescinded what i said before, but yeah, it's a valid point lol

@buttersdaman000: I strongly disagree with the idea that including a few cheesy jokes will allow a movie to be less carefully scrutinized for its failures. To me, that makes no sense at all. By that logic, Transformers is the best movie franchise of all time.

The logic is, the MCU movies first priority is to give everyone a good time so viewers and critics don't look as deeply into it's script/plot. BvS and MoS were more ambitious in their motivations, wanting to be seen more like the Nolan movies, then the MCU movies. Yet, BvS, more than the MoS, had problems that made it noticeably fall short of this goal. I still think these movies are held under too much scrutiny though.

I understand the logic, I just disagree with it. When measuring the quality of films, one can still control for comedic levity. Toy Story 3 has humor, tons of it. But we still assess it on its own merits. Marvel films are given a free pass on many issues, in my opinion, often unfairly. I for one grade them just the same as I grade the DCEU movies though. Enjoyment matters in my assessment, but it isn't the only factor.

Fair enough actually and I understand where you're coming from. However, I don't think the MCU gets a pass per se....I just think they've crafted this well oiled machine where as long as expectations are met, people and critics are pleased. And, people LIKE the MCU. That's the kicker. That's why these movies have RT percentages that don't fully reflect their scores or reviews.

I guess I don't disagree here. Fair point.

Mismatch. Justice League stomps. Justice League had it's problems but its no BvS. I hated Batman vs Superman(No I didn't see the Ultimate Cut I don't know if I can bring myself to watch that movie again in any form) whereas I mostly enjoyed Justice League. That actually surprised me. I thought Justice League would be terrible because I have mostly been in line with the critics for the DCEU. I thought Man of Steel was meh not horrible but not really good either. I though BvS was terrible I thought Suicide Squad was terrible and I thought Wonder Woman was good. When I saw the Rotten Tomatoes score I thought Justice League might have been nearly as bad as BvS. I enjoyed it though. It isn't what I want it to become but its good and I liked the characters enough to actually get excited for the DCEU.

I digged both, but liked JL more because it was more fun

both movies are garbage... waste of Time. Not even 10% of Marvel Movies. Sorry for DC fans. I will not handle another movie from DC.

thanks

I think I'm more open to mopey Superman than most people you come across... although I don't think anything was gained by having it be this far to one side, or atleast justify it better than they did. I will say that MoS was pretty much pushing it at times with it.

But fine whatever. In the end, I think the movie could have been done 10 times better had they gave us what they pitched it as, and not dumbed the movie down to Superman being framed for murder.

WW was not misused in BvS. I certainly think so in JL but you can't fault BvS for plot developments that did not exist until years after the film was made. That is entirely unfair.

Hmm? What do you mean by this? As far as I know, JL and BvS were written together. They already had planned that the Amazon's had fought Steppenwolf, way back when the started filming and had their apology tour for the press.

BvS (extended) easily.

Honestly if WB didn't force JL to be 120 mins and if Whedon hadn't fired Junkie I bet $1000 JL would've much better than BvS. Those two decisions ruined it badly.

I actually liked Justice League so that's what I vote for.

Justice League, even if it was poorly edited

Still BvS, the misunderstood great of 2016.

Batman V Superman