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Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

Well for those of who've read my other works, hello old readers and true believers. For those who have not, hello new readers and true believers. Everyone and their mothers made up their minds on which side they were on in the fight that cannibalised the fight between Batman and Superman, or pro-registration vs. rebels.

The fight between... BATMAN V. SUPERMAN: DoJ and Captain America: Civil War. The first meeting between Batman and Superman on the big screen, and the first live action outing of Wonder Woman v. THE event film (to be fair, the event film is Marvel's The Avengers, but this is second).

So, this blog might've arrived lately, but I wanted to wait for the Ultimate Cut of Batman v. Superman before comparing the two. I'll try to keep personal preference to a minimum, and dedicate this blog more on how the two set themselves apart in their own respects. But when I say minimum, I mean there'll still be a decent amount of that seeing as it's a point of contention I'd like to share my opinion on.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person that loves BOTH films to varying degrees. But I'm sure there's more of you.

The Best Live Action Batman
The Best Live Action Batman
The Best Live Action Spider-Man
The Best Live Action Spider-Man

Right off the bat, I want to establish that Captain America: Civil War is the more competently made film. Not on all fronts, but if I were to contrast the pro's and con's of each film, Civil War is unbiasedly better than Dawn of Justice. By a lot. If not for anything else other than writing. Both develop their stories in differentiating ways. Captain America: Civil War unfolds like a drama, each story beat unfolding via straightforward yet compelling plot advancements. Dawn of Justice is more abstract, ambiguous, and utilises undertone, allegory and symbolism to get it's story across.

Each are prominent in their own respect. Personally, Dawn of Justice is more repayable because of the attention to detail, which drew be back to the film again and again, and the reason I watched the film 6 times. Things like the Man-Bat sequence being an allegory for Batman's good will being corrupted by his hatred for Superman. Or Bruce Wayne asserting early on the film that promises are worthless ("we've seen what promises are worth, Alfred") then promising Superman that Martha won't die tonight.

This, in addition to the beautiful cinematography -- almost every frame in this film could be a painting. Not only is the film visually pretty, but Snyder uses cinematography as a storytelling technique. My favourite example being the Superman montage. Almost every frame in that stretch of the film encapsulates the notion that Superman is distant from humanity. Such as the Day of The Dead shot of the human beings extending their hands and failing to touch Superman with the tip of his fingers, Superman in the midst of empty space rescuing the satellite, and Superman dragging the ship in the middle of the ice, or something. I dunno.

Snyder's directing should not go unnoticed. Regardless of your opinion of him as a storyteller, his directing is often outstanding. Batman scurrying across the ceiling like a xenomorph, and vanishes like a bat is an imaginative and animated introduction to the character and certified him as a badass. Wonder Woman's entrance as Zimmer's and Junkie XL's Danny Elfman's "The Spy Kids" inspired theme of the character is one of the finest minute moments of the film.

Let's contrast all of this with Spider-Man's entrance in Civil War - directed by Anthony and Joe Russo... two directors who became famous for writing and directing Television. Superman's in suit entrance in the film is rather straightforward and bland. This is a personification of Batman v. Superman's sublimity in directing, in contrast to the bland and uninspired directing of Civil War, in which Spider-Man just kinda enters. It's fun, but nothing interesting from a directing standpoint.

Similarly, the pro registration and rebel team respectfully assembling side by side to oppose each other is boringly filmed. Dawn of Justice, on the other hand, when the Trinity first assembles, Snyder cleverly framed the trio from behind in a beautiful shot before panning to an upfront shot of the trinity.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Polarising as he may be, Zack Snyder is often poised as one of the most interesting action-directors of the 21st century. The Dawn of The Dead opening is testament to this. To shamelessly self plug, I wrote a blog breaking down the action sequences in DoJ and concluded the action had more than it's share of flaws. The best thing being the phenomenal warehouse sequence.

This is where The Russo Brother outclassed Snyder. The CGI is excessive in parts - in particular Tony's face looking like Robert Downey Jr's head floating behind a green screen, and Spider-Man looking a tad bit out of place. But the action is dynamic and plausible.

In Dawn of Justice, the action sequences play more like animated storyboards, with each fighter slowly making their movies. For example, Doomsday standing as Wonder Woman unleashes a blast against him. Or Superman standing as Batman slowly reloads his Kryptonite grenade gun.

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No Caption Provided

Writing is where Civil War excels the most. This exists not only as cargo to unload unto the Snyder hate train (to quote @mazahs117 on this thread), but also as a testimony to Markus's and McFeely's talent as writers. Their ability to set up so much in so little is outstanding. Tony's introduction in the film doesn't only introduce the character, but also sets up his relationship with his parents, Pepper leaving him for breaking his promise, and the mother's reaction to her son dying.

In the span of 2 hours and 27 minutes: Iron Man and Captain America's dynamic is explored, Bucky as a character is sympathetic AND badass, Scarlett Witch is portrayed as fearful of her own powers, Sam Wilson and War Machine both share their own perspectives, Black Widow is the most familial / caring of the family, comforting Steve after Peggy's death, and checking up on Tony after the Airport Battle. Hell, Black Panther completes a character arc in 10 minutes. Which, for such a minor character, is impressive.

DoJ on the other hand, had less characters, but struggled to utilise them to at least the same degree of Markus and McFeely's work on Civil War. Martha is a plot device with less dialogue then you can count on two hands, Lois Lane is barely a character, Superman and Batman lack gravity, and even if, like me, you love the film, you've gotta admit that two lines for each character is very disappointing for the first ever live action meeting of the two characters.

Likewise, when the film wants to slyly set something up, be in thematically on narratively, Terrio finds the need to halt the film. The Man-Bat dream supports my claim.

That said, Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice explored it's themes in ways that Civil War DIDN'T. In a recent thread, user @slayz highlighted that the Metropolis opening of the film depicts how humbled the presence of gods on earth makes humans feel. Snyder catches a LOT of flack for just telling instead of showing. When, in the case of Civil War, you are literally shown a montage of the death of blank-faces. Compare that with Batman v. Superman, which brought you up close and intimate with the humans to an incredibly relatable degree.

I'm about to say the most controversial thing on this blog. That's this: I find Lex Luthor to be a better villain than Zemo. Don't get me wrong, Zemo is far better than every other Marvel villain that ISN'T Loki. His attempted suicide after his lap victory towards the end of the film is a fantastic character moment. But we don't GET Zemo's motivations till the final 15 minutes of the film. It can be argued that Lex's motivation isn't explored till the Rooftop Battle, but his personality and character came out through every scene. In Daniel Bruhl's case, his character, leading up to that end, was a blank case, which doesn't make a strong case in favour of him.

Something else that bothered me in Civil War above everything else is the final 5 minutes of the film. Imagine if Batman resolved with Gotham before they sent off The Dark Knight. They undermine Zemo's victory by having Steve and Tony reconcile by the end of the film. In Dawn of Justice: yes, Superman is resurrected minute's after, but that doesn't undermine the impact of his death at all. Batman is still inspired, and still putting together the Justice League himself.

Thank you for reading. Signing out.

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#1 Posted by deactivated-5c9535a734784 (2578 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice break down blog, TAS. You get a gif.

No Caption Provided

I generally enjoyed Civil War more than BVS. It's the film I can see myself watching time after time. BVS on the other hand is relegated to the once or twice a year viewing. However, certain scenes in BVS do grab me, the Wayne's death, the day of the dead montage scene and the warehouse scene. When BVS first came out, I hated it and I mean really hated it. I actually saw red for a long time after the film. I'll never forget the fact that my dad (arguably the main source of my comic love and being a Superman fan first) would not talk about the film for hours. When he finally opened up, he had nothing to say about it other than he hated it. Now I'm at the acceptance stage, its just there. It exists and people enjoyed it which I'm happy for. For me the best Batman and Superman team up will always be in the animation medium with Public Enemies being my favourite animated film. I hope that Justice League is the better film and I really hope that it pulls in the viewership and admiration of the general audience. I'd like to see a flourishing DCEU next to a flourishing MCU, that's my wish for the moment.

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#2 Edited by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice break down blog, TAS. You get a gif.

No Caption Provided

I generally enjoyed Civil War more than BVS. It's the film I can see myself watching time after time. BVS on the other hand is relegated to the once or twice a year viewing. However, certain scenes in BVS do grab me, the Wayne's death, the day of the dead montage scene and the warehouse scene. When BVS first came out, I hated it and I mean really hated it. I actually saw red for a long time after the film. I'll never forget the fact that my dad (arguably the main source of my comic love and being a Superman fan first) would not talk about the film for hours. When he finally opened up, he had nothing to say about it other than he hated it. Now I'm at the acceptance stage, its just there. It exists and people enjoyed it which I'm happy for. For me the best Batman and Superman team up will always be in the animation medium with Public Enemies being my favourite animated film. I hope that Justice League is the better film and I really hope that it pulls in the viewership and admiration of the general audience. I'd like to see a flourishing DCEU next to a flourishing MCU, that's my wish for the moment.

I LOVE The Force Awakens!

Loved hearing your breakdown response. It was specifically interesting to read because out opinions of the film are slightly opposite. In a sense I can see myself re watching Dawn of Justice more than Civil War.

I gotta watch Public Enemies.

Seen The Killing Joke?

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#3 Posted by TheIncredibleSuperHulk8642 (4580 posts) - - Show Bio

Great Blog. You really go in depth and hit the nail on the head with certain points. Only difference is.....I disagree with the villains. Lex was so unrecognizable it was horrid and I hope they ignore him and put him away for the rest of the DCEU. I hated nearly every scene focused on him. Zemo was more bearable as a villain.

I actually fairly disliked BvS when it came out but after rewatching it a few times specifically the Ultimate Edition I grew to like the film. Although I still believe that Civil War is a far superior film.

And like soldierofel all I want is a flourishing DCEU to go alongside the MCU. I want a picture perfect, loveable boy scout DCEU Superman to go with a picture perfect, loveable boy scout that is MCU Captain America.

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#4 Edited by TheSilentRipper (2530 posts) - - Show Bio

Tobey is still the best live action Spidey

We need to wait until Homecoming imo

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#5 Posted by klbro123 (383 posts) - - Show Bio

good write up, i just disagree i think civil war is average at best, with some decent action set pieces.

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#6 Edited by UltimateSMfan (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice blog! Agreed on most fronts but i'll add Cvil War takes full advantage of the twelve or so films that came before it but still balances out story really well.

I also think Lex is superior. Vastly superior actually. I've gotten past the mannerisms which is the act that he puts on and through viewing the Ultimate edition, i think his character is one of the best written. Don't care if people disagree with me but he's a contemporary Lex that shares an incredible amount of characterisation with his comic counterpart except for the mannerisms(I think the main reason of contention with his character), which he kinda had in Birthright especially the smallville parts when he had hair, him being so smart and egotistical it just made him unhinged and seem crazy. And with this Lex there's a lot of nuance, even if one wants to ignore it. His motivations go all the way back to his speech talking about prometheus , just like in Superman returns, he was talking about himself and the paradox of having knowledge with no power. Unarguably the closest thing we've got to modern Luthor in terms of motivations.

Zemo was plane to me.

Lois benefited a lot from the UC and i liked her story, she basically figured out everything before anyone else.

IMO the video clip reveal in civil war is the equivalent to the Martha moment which i was ok with.

Civil war is definitely the better movie and better made film, but i wasn't gaga over it. Actually, disappointed by it.

I don't see myself seeing civil war over and over, unlike Winter soldier.

As you said Zack is more of a show and not outright tell kinda director so theres more i see myself discovering in BvS with subsequent viewings and the well of themes used is pretty deep along with the reality setting which keeps me coming back to watch it.

Superman flying down from space cracking through the clouds to blitz doomsday trumps every action scene in every Superhero movie for me (so far), Love that shot. That single shot :D

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#7 Posted by ganon15 (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

Tobey is still the best live action Spidey

We need to wait until Homecoming imo

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#8 Edited by Gracetrack (4677 posts) - - Show Bio

Good blog. I disagree with the idea that Civ War is a more "competently made" film, but thank you for sharing your thoughts. :)

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#9 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimatesmfan:

Nice blog! Agreed on most fronts but i'll add Cvil War takes full advantage of the twelve or so films that came before it but still balances out story really well.

Firstly, thank you!

I also think Lex is superior. Vastly superior actually. I've gotten past the mannerisms which is the act that he puts on and through viewing the Ultimate edition, i think his character is one of the best written. Don't care if people disagree with me but he's a contemporary Lex that shares an incredible amount of characterisation with his comic counterpart except for the mannerisms(I think the main reason of contention with his character), which he kinda had in Birthright especially the smallville parts when he had hair, him being so smart and egotistical it just made him unhinged and seem crazy. And with this Lex there's a lot of nuance, even if one wants to ignore it. His motivations go all the way back to his speech talking about prometheus , just like in Superman returns, he was talking about himself and the paradox of having knowledge with no power.

You see, I feel the same way. That Prometheus thing is a great example of what I said when I stated that although he didn't give full disclosure until the rooftop scene, that his personality came out through all of his scenes. All Zemo really said was that he wanted to topple an empire.

IMO the video clip reveal in civil war is the equivalent to the Martha moment which i was ok with.

I hate to be that guy but it's moments like this that remind me that as much as some people want to deny it, there IS bias. If Zack Snyder pulled off the same thing, people would say "DUR!! HOW DOES ZEMO KNOW THAT CAP DIDN'T TELL TONY?! THIS MOVIE SUCKS!!!"

Civil war is definitely the better movie and better made film, but i wasn't gaga over it.

Does it have anything to do with being burnt out with Marvel films?

Is it weird that although Civil War instantly become one of my all time favourite films, I feel like Batman v. Superman is more replay able? O.o It really is strange.

As you said Zack is more of a show and not outright tell kinda director so theres more i see myself discovering in BvS with subsequent viewings and the well of themes used is pretty deep along with the reality setting which keeps me coming back to watch it.

Superman flying down from space cracking through the clouds to blitz doomsday trumps every action scene in every Superhero movie for me, Love that shot. That single shot :D

What a beautiful film. If Snyder were merely a visual director, I'd call him a master of his craft.

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#10 Edited by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono said:

Good blog. I disagree with the idea that Civ War is a more "competently made" film, but thank you for sharing your thoughts. :)

I know I'm a bit cheesy, but aww :)

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#11 Edited by deactivated-5c9535a734784 (2578 posts) - - Show Bio

@soldierofel said:

Nice break down blog, TAS. You get a gif.

No Caption Provided

I generally enjoyed Civil War more than BVS. It's the film I can see myself watching time after time. BVS on the other hand is relegated to the once or twice a year viewing. However, certain scenes in BVS do grab me, the Wayne's death, the day of the dead montage scene and the warehouse scene. When BVS first came out, I hated it and I mean really hated it. I actually saw red for a long time after the film. I'll never forget the fact that my dad (arguably the main source of my comic love and being a Superman fan first) would not talk about the film for hours. When he finally opened up, he had nothing to say about it other than he hated it. Now I'm at the acceptance stage, its just there. It exists and people enjoyed it which I'm happy for. For me the best Batman and Superman team up will always be in the animation medium with Public Enemies being my favourite animated film. I hope that Justice League is the better film and I really hope that it pulls in the viewership and admiration of the general audience. I'd like to see a flourishing DCEU next to a flourishing MCU, that's my wish for the moment.

I LOVE The Force Awakens!

Loved hearing your breakdown response. It was specifically interesting to read because out opinions of the film are slightly opposite. In a sense I can see myself re watching Dawn of Justice more than Civil War.

I gotta watch Public Enemies.

Seen The Killing Joke?

Yay! Another TFA fan. Seriously, despite grossing 2 billion, there are very few fans on the net. Such is the nature of things.

I get that. I think when it came to DOJ, most people who thought it was the worst film of all time, including myself for a while, did it out of a revulsion of what the characters had become. For instance, my dad is a big Superman fan and he thought the film handled him poorly, and thats being kind (what he said was considerably more incendiary). So I would think that the dislike and hate comes from a love of the characters rather than a interpretation. I can get behind that as we all have our favourite interpretation and we stick behind those at all times. I suppose if the characters begin to resemble their comic book counterparts, that will ease. Though comic book fandom is quite toxic in parts and notoriously hard to please.

Not yet, I'm going to be buying it on Amazon prime and watching it either tonight or tomorrow. Avoiding spoilers is my main concern at the moment, I've already heard about the controversial relationship so I thought I'd go on a black out. I will be watching the Jason Bourne film tomorrow. I await you review. :)

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#12 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey said:
@soldierofel said:

Nice break down blog, TAS. You get a gif.

No Caption Provided

I generally enjoyed Civil War more than BVS. It's the film I can see myself watching time after time. BVS on the other hand is relegated to the once or twice a year viewing. However, certain scenes in BVS do grab me, the Wayne's death, the day of the dead montage scene and the warehouse scene. When BVS first came out, I hated it and I mean really hated it. I actually saw red for a long time after the film. I'll never forget the fact that my dad (arguably the main source of my comic love and being a Superman fan first) would not talk about the film for hours. When he finally opened up, he had nothing to say about it other than he hated it. Now I'm at the acceptance stage, its just there. It exists and people enjoyed it which I'm happy for. For me the best Batman and Superman team up will always be in the animation medium with Public Enemies being my favourite animated film. I hope that Justice League is the better film and I really hope that it pulls in the viewership and admiration of the general audience. I'd like to see a flourishing DCEU next to a flourishing MCU, that's my wish for the moment.

I LOVE The Force Awakens!

Loved hearing your breakdown response. It was specifically interesting to read because out opinions of the film are slightly opposite. In a sense I can see myself re watching Dawn of Justice more than Civil War.

I gotta watch Public Enemies.

Seen The Killing Joke?

Yay! Another TFA fan. Seriously, despite grossing 2 billion, there are very few fans on the net. Such is the nature of things.

I get that. I think when it came to DOJ, most people who thought it was the worst film of all time, including myself for a while, did it out of a revulsion of what the characters had become. For instance, my dad is a big Superman fan and he thought the film handled him poorly, and thats being kind (what he said was considerably more incendiary). So I would think that the dislike and hate comes from a love of the characters rather than a interpretation. I can get behind that as we all have our favourite interpretation and we stick behind those at all times. I suppose if the characters begin to resemble their comic book counterparts, that will ease. Though comic book fandom is quite toxic in parts and notoriously hard to please.

Not yet, I'm going to be buying it on Amazon prime and watching it either tonight or tomorrow. Avoiding spoilers is my main concern at the moment, I've already heard about the controversial relationship so I thought I'd go on a black out. I will be watching the Jason Bourne film tomorrow. I await you review. :)

Yeah. Unfortunately it became cool to hate The Force Awakens. It's personally my favourite Star Wars film. I saw it in cinemas and felt the Star Wars magic on the big screen for the first time. It will always hold a special place in my heart.

Really, man? I guess it's not the conventional Superman or Batman, but by the end of the film... I'm certain they developed into their comic book counterparts. Batman becomes hopeful, and Superman is doing some smiling in the Justice League poster :) If you haven't already, show your dad the JL trailer.

Ugh, man, I feel your pain. I had the controversial relationship spoiled for me too :(

I CANNOT wait for Bourne. I'm flatted your excited for my review of the film!

Although I do wish I would've refrained from looking at the Tomato metre before watching it.

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#13 Edited by Gracetrack (4677 posts) - - Show Bio

@soldierofel said:

I think when it came to DOJ, most people who thought it was the worst film of all time, including myself for a while, did it out of a revulsion of what the characters had become. For instance, my dad is a big Superman fan and he thought the film handled him poorly, and thats being kind (what he said was considerably more incendiary). So I would think that the dislike and hate comes from a love of the characters rather than a interpretation. I can get behind that as we all have our favourite interpretation and we stick behind those at all times. I suppose if the characters begin to resemble their comic book counterparts, that will ease. Though comic book fandom is quite toxic in parts and notoriously hard to please.

Yes to all of this. I think you are absolutely correct here, and thank you for pointing it out and being willing to name it. Kudos.

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#14 Posted by deactivated-5c9535a734784 (2578 posts) - - Show Bio

@soldierofel said:
@theamazingspidey said:
@soldierofel said:

Nice break down blog, TAS. You get a gif.

No Caption Provided

I generally enjoyed Civil War more than BVS. It's the film I can see myself watching time after time. BVS on the other hand is relegated to the once or twice a year viewing. However, certain scenes in BVS do grab me, the Wayne's death, the day of the dead montage scene and the warehouse scene. When BVS first came out, I hated it and I mean really hated it. I actually saw red for a long time after the film. I'll never forget the fact that my dad (arguably the main source of my comic love and being a Superman fan first) would not talk about the film for hours. When he finally opened up, he had nothing to say about it other than he hated it. Now I'm at the acceptance stage, its just there. It exists and people enjoyed it which I'm happy for. For me the best Batman and Superman team up will always be in the animation medium with Public Enemies being my favourite animated film. I hope that Justice League is the better film and I really hope that it pulls in the viewership and admiration of the general audience. I'd like to see a flourishing DCEU next to a flourishing MCU, that's my wish for the moment.

I LOVE The Force Awakens!

Loved hearing your breakdown response. It was specifically interesting to read because out opinions of the film are slightly opposite. In a sense I can see myself re watching Dawn of Justice more than Civil War.

I gotta watch Public Enemies.

Seen The Killing Joke?

Yay! Another TFA fan. Seriously, despite grossing 2 billion, there are very few fans on the net. Such is the nature of things.

I get that. I think when it came to DOJ, most people who thought it was the worst film of all time, including myself for a while, did it out of a revulsion of what the characters had become. For instance, my dad is a big Superman fan and he thought the film handled him poorly, and thats being kind (what he said was considerably more incendiary). So I would think that the dislike and hate comes from a love of the characters rather than a interpretation. I can get behind that as we all have our favourite interpretation and we stick behind those at all times. I suppose if the characters begin to resemble their comic book counterparts, that will ease. Though comic book fandom is quite toxic in parts and notoriously hard to please.

Not yet, I'm going to be buying it on Amazon prime and watching it either tonight or tomorrow. Avoiding spoilers is my main concern at the moment, I've already heard about the controversial relationship so I thought I'd go on a black out. I will be watching the Jason Bourne film tomorrow. I await you review. :)

Yeah. Unfortunately it became cool to hate The Force Awakens. It's personally my favourite Star Wars film. I saw it in cinemas and felt the Star Wars magic on the big screen for the first time. It will always hold a special place in my heart.

Really, man? I guess it's not the conventional Superman or Batman, but by the end of the film... I'm certain they developed into their comic book counterparts. Batman becomes hopeful, and Superman is doing some smiling in the Justice League poster :) If you haven't already, show your dad the JL trailer.

Ugh, man, I feel your pain. I had the controversial relationship spoiled for me too :(

I CANNOT wait for Bourne. I'm flatted your excited for my review of the film!

Although I do wish I would've refrained from looking at the Tomato metre before watching it.

I found that as well. I was three or four when the phantom menace came out and I think it was the first film I saw in cinemas. I don't remember much other than it being bright and wicked fun. I saw the next two in cinemas, I saw ROTS six times with my dad who had seen the original trilogy in the cinemas when he was young. I kinda dropped off Star Wars after that but got straight back in when I found out there where comics. Then TFA came out and I adored it. It was my favourite film of the year.

I did show him and while he was impressed, he has a wait and see attitude. Though he is digging the flash, who he felt looked like a hippy in BVS. His face during the flash scene after the nightmare scene was hilarious. He was literally like 'wtf is happening'. To tell you the truth I had to think about it before I could answer.

Spoilers are the bane of my existence. Well not so much, I watch almost every trailer I see and forget most of the stuff. But for TFA and CW I did a media black out. No social media and no internet for the last week before either films came out. I'll be doing the same for Rogue One and Justice League next year.

Same. I remember watching the first Bourne in the cinema, such an awesome film, especially as James Bond had become rather... cheesy. Bourne was a damaged and interesting character who just appeared far more cool. Plus I decided to read the books which where... complex in parts but very interesting.

Rotten Tomato's is something I look at to prove how out of whack I am with reviewers. There's one reviewer who I generally trust and that's Jeremy Jahns. Other than that I give up when it comes to reviewers. If I sat down with a noted film critic and gave them a list of films I enjoy and still watch it would put them on suicide watch.

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#15 Posted by deactivated-5c9535a734784 (2578 posts) - - Show Bio

@soldierofel said:

I think when it came to DOJ, most people who thought it was the worst film of all time, including myself for a while, did it out of a revulsion of what the characters had become. For instance, my dad is a big Superman fan and he thought the film handled him poorly, and thats being kind (what he said was considerably more incendiary). So I would think that the dislike and hate comes from a love of the characters rather than a interpretation. I can get behind that as we all have our favourite interpretation and we stick behind those at all times. I suppose if the characters begin to resemble their comic book counterparts, that will ease. Though comic book fandom is quite toxic in parts and notoriously hard to please.

Yes to all of this. I think you are absolutely correct here, and thank you for pointing it out. Kudos.

You get a gif as well, friend.
You get a gif as well, friend.

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#16 Edited by lynx_animation (25 posts) - - Show Bio

Great blog TAS. Personally loved Civil War, granted I am a bit subjective since I prefer Marvel than DC but I think I heard it in Honest trailers about BvS. So many things happening in the same movie, they could have break it down half way or even 3-4 ways and make it into a 2-3 movie sequel, would have more sense, and everything would be at a slower pace. It almost smells of desperation to get it out there before Civil War and hit on the initial superhero train movies. One thing I did enjoy was Batfleck, despite my worries he proved to be the best part of BvS, for me at least.

As for Civil War, where to start? Spider-man, airport scene, was generally surprised at the last bit when I found out the plan wasn't to release all of the WS's but create a fight between Cap and Tony.

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#18 Posted by the_stegman (40232 posts) - - Show Bio

I highly enjoyed both films!

Moderator
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#19 Posted by Mike_Fowler (5075 posts) - - Show Bio

Uh, I just want to say, I didn't get that feeling that Steve and Tony were truly reconciled. I took that more as reaching out to Tony for keeping that secret from him, but they're still at odds when it comes to the accords. (It's also a bit ambiguous on whether or not Tony actually forgives Steve or will still see it as a betrayal)

Interesting thread btw

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#20 Edited by UltimateSMfan (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

@omnicrono said:

Civ War had the narrative support/drive of the handful of films that came before it, and I think many people take that for granted. Because of this, I don't feel it holds up nearly as well as a standalone film, but that's me. It's still a very good movie, though.

Shared sentiments. It was a good episode in the Marvel cinematic television show.

@theamazingspidey said:

@ultimatesmfan:

I hate to be that guy but it's moments like this that remind me that as much as some people want to deny it, there IS bias. If Zack Snyder pulled off the same thing, people would say "DUR!! HOW DOES ZEMO KNOW THAT CAP DIDN'T TELL TONY?! THIS MOVIE SUCKS!!!"

Oh there's definitely a bias, slight but prevalent. But see i feel really bad for Zack for just this reason, especially online with the sheer vitriol towards him, nothing he does is right, he can't win anymore( haha much like the theme for Superman in BvS). All the negativity has led to this negative confirmation bias towards him and it's the opposite for marvel. Seeing people complaining about a moody and hard Aquaman in the JL footage and that Zack is apologising for aquaman. My eyes nearly tore out of my head they rolled so hard. Clearly these people don't read comics. Though that apologising comment came from Max Landis so that was surprising and at the same time not that surprising. Honestly with DC, and Zack in particular, everyones looking for the negative and with Marvel everyones looking for the positive. Maybe SS and WW can flip that switch.

@theamazingspidey said:

@ultimatesmfan:

Does it have anything to do with being burnt out with Marvel films?

Not really, my favourite parts of the film were Spidey and Black Panther, the new aspects, so im still looking forward to the new stuff. But in terms of 'Marvel films' i think that factored in a little when it came to that airport fight, loads of fun but tonally so different from the rest of the film it took me out of it. And as stated above, it heavily depended on the preious movies. Also story elements like the ideological battle aka the sokovia accords being dropped in favour of fighting over Bucky and a manipulation story, which weirdly both BvS and Civil war went for but of course BvS gets more crap for.

@theamazingspidey said:

@ultimatesmfan:

Is it weird that although Civil War instantly become one of my all time favourite films, I feel like Batman v. Superman is more replay able? O.o It really is strange.

You know i think, Civil War was this good, fun, well told story told that made for an enjoyable movie, so you watch it and your done with it. But bvs though poor in story telling is a much more layered film and because of the themes explored, more thought provoking. For me the replay value is not something like for instance TWS because that's just a great spy thriller with excellent action and story beats but more because every time i watch bvs i appreciate more what they were trying to say with the story, even though they went about it in a wrong way and could've/should've built upto it or done a similar realistic introspection with a bit more light and hope than just in the ending. And i definitely appreciate Lex more with every viewing.

Anyway that's my thoughts on it :)

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#21 Posted by Uncanny_Doom (845 posts) - - Show Bio

I couldn't compare these movies at all. Civil War was great and I've seen it twice and would/could watch it again. Almost everything it does right is like an extra stick in the face for BvS because of how much BvS screwed up. It took me several attempts just to sit through BvS for the first time and I have zero interest in suffering through it's run time again anytime soon. It's a bad movie. I can't think of a single thing I'd say it does better than Civil War.

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#22 Posted by UltimateSMfan (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey: P.S- If you're interested there's this great podcast called Man of steel answers and insight commentary. The host, delves pretty deep into the DCEU movies(so mos and bvs for now lol) in terms of themes, plot,story etc. and its really interesting. He isn't biased or anything he even admits to not thinking bvs was great but he looks past that and analysis what's explored in the films to a very awesome degree. The amount he divulged about the theatrical cut alone was pretty astonishing. manofsteelanswers.com

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#23 Posted by Deathstroke52 (7006 posts) - - Show Bio

Good blog.

I like BvS more.

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#24 Posted by PeterParkerJr (6767 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by amazing_webhead (9870 posts) - - Show Bio

Luthor was a way better villain. Zemo already had most of his plan done for him before he even started thinking it up.

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#26 Posted by deactivated-5a04a566e9ae3 (12864 posts) - - Show Bio

I still haven't seen either movie.

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#27 Posted by HighAccuser (9696 posts) - - Show Bio

I love both comic lines been reading them for over a decade and read comics at least 2x a week. I'm neither a Batman or Superman fan but TDK is my fav comic movie. I found BVS to be utter shit. Civil War superior in every way.

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#28 Edited by DarthVxder (1034 posts) - - Show Bio

I really like BvS the extended one because one of my biggest problems with it was that there was barely any Superman at all. The one in theaters was alright.

Civil War on the other hand really bored me. The airport scene while it had some nice moments, I couldnt feel any suspense at all because I knew they werent trying to hurt each other. The villain was boring and just bad. Cap and Bucky were great and the last fight with Tony was awesome but I really only enjoyed a couple of scenes in the movie and the story didnt grab me.

PS: Great post man.

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#29 Posted by MAZAHS117 (12700 posts) - - Show Bio

Like both films. Each excel better in certain areas the other doesn't

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#30 Posted by chaos911 (4166 posts) - - Show Bio

Great blog, TAS! I still need to find time to watch the Ultimate Edition.

Though, one thing I must disagree with:

Don't get me wrong, Zemo is far better than every other Marvel villain that ISN'T Loki.

Wilson Fisk and Kilgrave say hello.

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#31 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos911 said:

Great blog, TAS! I still need to find time to watch the Ultimate Edition.

Though, one thing I must disagree with:

Don't get me wrong, Zemo is far better than every other Marvel villain that ISN'T Loki.

Wilson Fisk and Kilgrave say hello.

Wilson Fisk and Kilgrave don't count. Not only are they Television characters, but it's a bit unfair. Seeing as Fisk and "Doctor Who" had 13 hours to breath.

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#32 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey: P.S- If you're interested there's this great podcast called Man of steel answers and insight commentary. The host, delves pretty deep into the DCEU movies(so mos and bvs for now lol) in terms of themes, plot,story etc. and its really interesting. He isn't biased or anything he even admits to not thinking bvs was great but he looks past that and analysis what's explored in the films to a very awesome degree. The amount he divulged about the theatrical cut alone was pretty astonishing. manofsteelanswers.com

Yeah, thanks for sharing! Although I'm already fond of that podcast. I probably wouldn't love the movie if not for it xD

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#33 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

I really like BvS the extended one because one of my biggest problems with it was that there was barely any Superman at all. The one in theaters was alright.

Civil War on the other hand really bored me. The airport scene while it had some nice moments, I couldnt feel any suspense at all because I knew they werent trying to hurt each other. The villain was boring and just bad. Cap and Bucky were great and the last fight with Tony was awesome but I really only enjoyed a couple of scenes in the movie and the story didnt grab me.

PS: Great post man.

That's an exciting opinion! And thank you.

I couldn't compare these movies at all. Civil War was great and I've seen it twice and would/could watch it again. Almost everything it does right is like an extra stick in the face for BvS because of how much BvS screwed up. It took me several attempts just to sit through BvS for the first time and I have zero interest in suffering through it's run time again anytime soon. It's a bad movie. I can't think of a single thing I'd say it does better than Civil War.

That's fair, man! The thing is although I love Batman v. Superman, I can concede why someone would hate it 100%. Like, I'm willing to defend it if someone's hating for the wrong reasons, but there are valid reasons not to like it.

Civil War, on the other hand... Is flawed, but I want to bang my head against a wall when I hear someone doesn't like the film xD

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#34 Posted by Spiderman1997 (2349 posts) - - Show Bio

Civil War stomps.

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#35 Posted by chaos911 (4166 posts) - - Show Bio

@theamazingspidey: But, they are still part of the MCU, so they should count. Should've said Marvel villains in film

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#36 Posted by Pipxeroth (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, not a bad blog, but I still find Civil War to be better by a significant margin, and disagree with a few things you said. Honestly I don't see Snyder as being any greater of a director than Michael Bay. But the main thing I'd like to talk about the final two paragraphs.

I'm about to say the most controversial thing on this blog. That's this: I find Lex Luthor to be a better villain than Zemo. Don't get me wrong, Zemo is far better than every other Marvel villain that ISN'T Loki. His attempted suicide after his lap victory towards the end of the film is a fantastic character moment. But we don't GET Zemo's motivations till the final 15 minutes of the film. It can be argued that Lex's motivation isn't explored till the Rooftop Battle, but his personality and character came out through every scene. In Daniel Bruhl's case, his character, leading up to that end, was a blank case, which doesn't make a strong case in favour of him.

I do not understand how not having his motivations revealed until the end made him a worse villain than Lex. It added the whole air of mystery around him, which only served to improve his character. You spend the whole movie watching as his plan falls into place, you see him succeed, and then you get hit with a wave of sympathy for his character. IMO that was better than if we knew his motivations from the start. That said, I actually liked Lex (although he really was not a Lex Luthor). I just felt Zemo was an objectively better villain as far as motivations and plan goes.

Something else that bothered me in Civil War above everything else is the final 5 minutes of the film. Imagine if Batman resolved with Gotham before they sent off The Dark Knight. They undermine Zemo's victory by having Steve and Tony reconcile by the end of the film. In Dawn of Justice: yes, Superman is resurrected minute's after, but that doesn't undermine the impact of his death at all. Batman is still inspired, and still putting together the Justice League himself.

I often hear people say that Civil War kind of had no impact on the MCU by the end of the film, but I honestly don't see how this is. Sure, Cap and Tony reconciled, but:

  • The avengers are now split into the Avengers and Secret Avengers
  • The accords still went ahead, so the secret avengers are fugitives and will be hunted by the government, while the normal avengers are forced to act under government orders
  • Rhodey is paralysed; Tony is pissed at Vision
  • Vision and Wanda are on opposite sides but clearly have strong feelings for eachother, which could lead to one of them leaving their respective side
  • Bucky is in stasis
  • Black Widow changed sides and told Tony to f himself
  • Panther changed sides
  • Bucky and presumably the rest of the SA are in Wakanda, which could very likely lead to an invasion by the US. There could be a full scale war between the US and Wakanda.
  • Tony will now forever be known as Tony Stank

Even if you consider 90% of those irrelevant, the fact is the Avengers are split, Cap's group is being hunted, and there could be a full on War with Wakanda. Cap and Tony remaining friends does not change anything enough to say that the effect Civil War had on the MCU was less so than Superman's death (in the 2nd film for a totally logical reason).

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#37 Posted by APEX_pretador (20894 posts) - - Show Bio

The Best Live Action Spider-Man

No Caption Provided

I'm about to say the most controversial thing on this blog. That's this: I find Lex Luthor to be a better villain than Zemo. Don't get me wrong, Zemo is far better than every other Marvel villain that ISN'T Loki.

Thank you for reading. Signing out.

Amazing analysis, strong correlation to username.

Also I love these gif's, perfect entrances.

However, I disagree with this ^^^. I think ultron is the #2 villain of MCU.

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#38 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, not a bad blog, but I still find Civil War to be better by a significant margin, and disagree with a few things you said. Honestly I don't see Snyder as being any greater of a director than Michael Bay. But the main thing I'd like to talk about the final two paragraphs.

I'm about to say the most controversial thing on this blog. That's this: I find Lex Luthor to be a better villain than Zemo. Don't get me wrong, Zemo is far better than every other Marvel villain that ISN'T Loki. His attempted suicide after his lap victory towards the end of the film is a fantastic character moment. But we don't GET Zemo's motivations till the final 15 minutes of the film. It can be argued that Lex's motivation isn't explored till the Rooftop Battle, but his personality and character came out through every scene. In Daniel Bruhl's case, his character, leading up to that end, was a blank case, which doesn't make a strong case in favour of him.

I do not understand how not having his motivations revealed until the end made him a worse villain than Lex. It added the whole air of mystery around him, which only served to improve his character. You spend the whole movie watching as his plan falls into place, you see him succeed, and then you get hit with a wave of sympathy for his character. IMO that was better than if we knew his motivations from the start. That said, I actually liked Lex (although he really was not a Lex Luthor). I just felt Zemo was an objectively better villain as far as motivations and plan goes.

Something else that bothered me in Civil War above everything else is the final 5 minutes of the film. Imagine if Batman resolved with Gotham before they sent off The Dark Knight. They undermine Zemo's victory by having Steve and Tony reconcile by the end of the film. In Dawn of Justice: yes, Superman is resurrected minute's after, but that doesn't undermine the impact of his death at all. Batman is still inspired, and still putting together the Justice League himself.

I often hear people say that Civil War kind of had no impact on the MCU by the end of the film, but I honestly don't see how this is. Sure, Cap and Tony reconciled, but:

  • The avengers are now split into the Avengers and Secret Avengers
  • The accords still went ahead, so the secret avengers are fugitives and will be hunted by the government, while the normal avengers are forced to act under government orders
  • Rhodey is paralysed; Tony is pissed at Vision
  • Vision and Wanda are on opposite sides but clearly have strong feelings for eachother, which could lead to one of them leaving their respective side
  • Bucky is in stasis
  • Black Widow changed sides and told Tony to f himself
  • Panther changed sides
  • Bucky and presumably the rest of the SA are in Wakanda, which could very likely lead to an invasion by the US. There could be a full scale war between the US and Wakanda.
  • Tony will now forever be known as Tony Stank

Even if you consider 90% of those irrelevant, the fact is the Avengers are split, Cap's group is being hunted, and there could be a full on War with Wakanda. Cap and Tony remaining friends does not change anything enough to say that the effect Civil War had on the MCU was less so than Superman's death (in the 2nd film for a totally logical reason).

Hm... this is genuinely one of the most wonderful responses I've read to any of my blogs! Thank you for giving me all the more reason to consider Civil War one of my favourites of the decade.

You're apt at this :)

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#39 Posted by Flickerblink (283 posts) - - Show Bio

Respectable. I will say that Zemo isn't amazing, he was well played though by Bruhl and served more as a plot device. Luthor on the other hand is god awful, Jar Jar Binks awful. Eisenberg's Luthor is the one person with certainty I wanted Batman to kill.

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#40 Posted by Ready_4_Madness (16503 posts) - - Show Bio

Great Blog!

I enjoyed both so there's not much I could add to this.

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#41 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

Respectable. I will say that Zemo isn't amazing, he was well played though by Bruhl and served more as a plot device. Luthor on the other hand is god awful, Jar Jar Binks awful. Eisenberg's Luthor is the one person with certainty I wanted Batman to kill.

Which is ironic considering he was the only person Batman DIDN'T.

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#42 Posted by never give up (24994 posts) - - Show Bio

Great blog.

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#43 Posted by terry2012 (9821 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by CosmicMuffin (478 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with a majority of the things you said, but I still think Zemo is better than Lex. Maybe its just me, or I did not pay attention as much as I should have while watching BvS...

But how come Lex hates things all powerful. So to kill the thing that's all powerful, he ... creates something ...all powerful? (Doomsday).

What did Lex think was gonna happen after Superman was killed by him? That is just another thing all powerful roaming around. Honestly Lex had very convoluted motivations in this movie. But idk did I pay attention enough?

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#46 Edited by DammeFavour (8461 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicmuffin: u should watch the UC it explains everything more indepthly. he was a really brilliant villain. much better than zemo

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#47 Posted by MonsterStomp (36882 posts) - - Show Bio

Best Live-Action Spider-Man?

Until Homecoming, I still hold Andrew Garfield as the best.

Online
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#48 Edited by TheAmazingSpidey (17641 posts) - - Show Bio

Best Live-Action Spider-Man?

Until Homecoming, I still hold Andrew Garfield as the best.

I respect that.

Well, what can I say... I tend to jump on bandwagons :P

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#49 Posted by MonsterStomp (36882 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#50 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked Civil War more, and easily.