Batman Is Not Crazy

People need to stop saying that Batman is crazy. I've seen so many pseudo intellectuals say that Batman is crazy just like some of villains and belongs in Arkham Asylum with them. The reasoning for Bruce Wayne being insane is that he witnessed his parents' murders when he was only a kid, as his way of coping with that trauma was wage war against the criminal underworld that took their lives whilst dressing up as a bat. That may sound superficially true, but this is completely wrong for a number of reasons. To begin with, Bruce Wayne dresses up as a bat is that he wants to feared by criminals. Bruce is also personifying his childhood fear of bats because he fell into a well of bats as a child. Dressing up as a bat isn't exactly normal, but neither is someone who dresses up like an American flag, or someone who dresses wears a red outfit with a double DD on the chest and horns on the head, or someone who wears a red and blue outfit with a big S on the chest. Superheroes who dress in skin tight outfits don't exactly look normal and they're not supposed to look normal. These costumes are an essential element of the vigilante persona that they need to adopt when fighting crime and protecting the innocent, and it's also one of the fantasy elements in comics.

If anything, being Batman prevents Bruce from going crazy, and Grant Morrison's explanation for why Bruce isn't crazy is spot on:

Grant Morrison: I never really subscribed to the idea that Bruce was insane or unhealthy. As I've said before, Bruce Wayne's physical and psychological training regimes (including advanced meditation techniques) would tend to encourage a fairly balanced and healthy personality. Bruce Wayne would have gone mad if he HADN'T dressed as a bat and found a startling way to channel the grief, guilt and helplessness he felt after the death of his parents. Without Batman, Bruce would be truly screwed-up but with Batman he becomes mythic, more than human and genuinely useful to his community. I believe he began to slay his demons the moment he became a demon.

Source — Grant Morrison Tells All About Batman and Robin

Morrison is correct about how important being Batman is to Bruce. As Batman, Bruce had found the ideal method to channel the feelings of anger, rage, grief, guilt and helplessness he felt over the deaths of his parents. As Batman, he can actually make his city a safer place and becomes more than human; he becomes a urban legend. Without Batman, Bruce would be lost because the moment he personified a demon was when he conquered his inner demons. Alfred has stated that the batcave is the only place on earth that Bruce truly feels himself:

Leslie: What's it like down there, Alfred? What does it hold over him?

Alfred: I think, miss Leslie... It may be the only place on earth... That he truly feels himself.

Source — Detective Comics (1937) Issue #575.

This out of universe source states the following:

Publisher Synopsis: With only a year’s experience as Gotham City’s new protector, Batman must now confront a nightmare out of the past—a distorted reflection of himself called the Reaper, who hunted Gotham’s criminals a generation earlier. His methods were harsh and cruel, and violent in the extreme. Now, just as a new breed of criminal is rising, the Reaper has returned to deal out his savage brand of justice. And the only way for Batman to stop this death-dealing vigilante is to forge an alliance with the man who destroyed his life—his own parents’ murderer.

But can the Dark Knight stand to confront the secret of their deaths? Or will the Reaper’s revelations finally cost him his sanity?

Source — Batman: Year Two 30th Anniversary Deluxe Edition.

This publisher's synopsis asks the rhetorical question of whether the Grim Reaper's revelations will finally cost Batman's sanity in the story, meaning that Batman isn't crazy because he can't be crazy if he's at risk of losing his sanity at the hands of a supervillain. Insanity is a synonym for crazy and the context is that it's being used as a medical term for mental illness, so don't try being clever by playing the semantics game that insanity is a legal term when the context isn't about legal issues.

Morrison has also mentioned Bruce uses physical and psychological training regimes, including advanced meditation techniques to maintain a healthy body and mind, which is all true. Bruce learned how to meditate when he sought training from Kirigi during his global quest of seeking the means to fight the injustice that plagued Gotham:

Source — Secret Origins: The Man Who Falls.

Bruce applies this in practise during his alone time to reduce the stress and fatigue he undergoes as Batman:

Bruce: Been watching the past few nights for them to move. Fighting the exhaustion that wracks me. Meditation takes some of the edge off. Just as Kirigi taught me. So long ago.

Source — Detective Comics (1937) Issue #655.

He even acknowledges that Kirigi had taught him meditation.

Another reason why people have argued that Bruce Wayne is insane is because he is obsessed with the impossible goal of trying rid his city of the evil that took his parents' lives to make sure that others don't go through the trauma he suffered as a child, despite knowing that he will never fully be able to achieve this goal. I disagree with this and Dennis O'Neil explains it best:

Editor: That character is a grim, dark, somewhat obsessed man, driven to fight crime by the memory of his parents' murder. O'Neil notes that Batman can become a bit much, if the wrong elements of his psyche are played up. "I think some writer-artist teams have made the character unappealing, by removing all his humanity. You make him a psycho, as some people have wanted to do, and you have an unappealing character. I think there has to be an essential streak of humanity running through the character and I will always reject the idea that he is a psycho — because I have some ideas about what heroes are and crazy people are not heroes. A hero has to have some control over his own destiny.

But isn't obsession a form of psychosis? O'Neil argues that Bruce Wayne isn't crazy because he recognizes his obsession and uses it for pro-social purposes. "In out sort of psychological picture of Batman, we posit that he knows that he has an obsession — and he's aware of it — but chooses not to fight the obsession because he's an existential man," he points out. "We all need something to give a meaning to our life; with most people it's family, with some people it's job. Most people don't even think about that, they accept what they're handed: Family is the thing that gives meaning to your life and this is the way it's always been. Batman knows he got snared by an obsession and chooses to let that be the governing principle of his life, because he can't think of anything better. At least, it's a very pro-socially useful obsession to have.Source — Wizard Magazine Issue #4 (1991).

As O'Neil says, Bruce is an "obsessed man, driven to fight crime by the memory of his parents' murder" which is true because that trauma is an essential element to Batman's war on organized crime. O-Neil also notes that Batman "can become a bit much, if the wrong elements of his psyche are played up" because some teams of writers-artists have removed Batman's humanity and making him a psycho in that they've made him too violent, which is most likely a a jab at previous creative teams who O'Neil felt like they wrote Batman wrong. O'Neil nonetheless asserts that there has to be "an essential streak of humanity running through the character" and he also always rejects the idea that Batman is a psycho. O'Neil also states that he has some ideas about what heroes are, and that one of them is that "crazy people are not heroes" in that a "hero has to have some control over his destiny." He also argues that Bruce isn't crazy because "he recognizes his obsession and uses it for pro-social purposes" i.e. protecting the innocent and apprehending the perpetrators that prey on the innocent. He also notes that Batman's psychological picture entails that Bruce "knows he has an obsession" but chooses not to fight that obsession "because he's an existential man" i.e. his obsession with protecting the innocent and apprehending the perpetrators is what gives his life meaning. O'Neil expands upon this by saying that we "all need something to give meaning to our life" and mentions that family and jobs gives meaning to certain people's lives, saying that Bruce knows that "he got snared by an obsession and chooses to let that be the governing principle of his life, because he can't think of anything better" which is true because there was no other way that Bruce could save Gotham from being destroyed; operating outside the law as Batman was the only answer to organized crime, hence why O'Neil says that "it's a very pro-socially useful obsession to have" and Batman making Gotham a better place is an indisputable fact, despite what SJWs think.

Granted, one can argue that Bruce's obsession with an impossible goal is foolish because he's never going to be able to fully succeed, parents will still be murdered and children will still become orphans, there's only so much one man can do to help a corrupt city, but that's not proof that Bruce is crazy. Bruce has actually illustrated to Leslie Thompkins that many people aren't that different from him when it comes to that mindset:

Leslie: You never mentioned any of this in your letters. It sounds awful -- weren't you lonely?

Bruce: I don't know. If I was, it doesn't matter. I liked those times. In those days, I really thought I could make a difference...

Leslie: You don't know?

Bruce: Sometimes, no.

Leslie: Then why do you do it, Bruce?

Bruce: Why do you run this clinic, Leslie? Why do you patch up street gangs like rag dolls, knowing they'll be back tomorrow? Why do you treat addicts, knowing they'll float back in next week, lost in some newer, deadlier drug?

Leslie: Be... Because I have to.

Bruce: I know.

Source — Detective Comics (1937) Issue #574.

He also talks about it here:

Bruce: I know I am fighting a war I can never completely win. But there are small victories that encourage me to keep trying. If I can win back one child, there may be hope for many others. If it starts with one person, and then a neighborhood, then perhaps redemption can spread through an entire city, and finally back to me. I helped Marcus deal with his pain. It will take him some time, but I know it will eventually leave him. Maybe someday I'll feel I can leave mine behind as well. But for now I still wait.

Source — Batman: War on Crime.

He admits that he's fighting a war he'll never completely win, but there are small victories that encourage him to keep trying. If he can help one person, it's a sign that others can be helped, from one person to a neighborhood, to perhaps an entire city, and finally back to himself, then maybe he can finally heal from the trauma of his parents' murders. Speaking of healing, another reason why people have argued that he's crazy is because he relives his parents' murders every night.

Yes, it is true that Bruce relives his parents' murders every night, but that's because he doesn't want to forget. Bruce doesn't want to heal from the trauma of his parents' murders, Wizard Magazine quotes Dennis O'Neil saying that Bruce is "driven to fight crime by the memory of his parents' murder" as Batman. As Batman, Bruce found the ideal method to channel the feelings of anger, rage, grief, guilt and helplessness he felt over his parents' murders into a symbol of justice that protects his city. Granted, this definitely isn't the ideal choice of a coping mechanism for chronic grief in the real world, counselling is definitely a much better option, but Batman doesn't exist in the real world, he's a fictitious character who is full of many fantasy elements, like many other superheroes. In spite of reliving his parents' murder on a nightly basis, Bruce isn't crazy because there's a lot more to Bruce's life than relieving his parents' murders, such as the fact that he meditates and exercises a lot. He has a very physically and mentally active lifestyle.

This isn't to say that Batman is completely immune to mental illness, but who is? He's human. Yeah a lot of what he has done is superhuman by real world standards, but he's far from invincible. Superheroes aren't invincible, one of the reasons why characters like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man and various others appeal to so many people is because they have human qualities. They're flawed, vulnerable and fail from time to time. Batman has mental scars that have been exploited by his villains e.g. Scarecrow and Hugo Strange, but that's nothing uncommon because human beings are imperfect, many people bear mental scars and inner demons, that doesn't necessarily mean they're crazy. There's a fine line between being on the edge and having gone over the edge. Batman is on the edge sometimes, but he's definitely not gone over the edge. If he was crazy, he wouldn't be affected by Scarecrow's fear toxin or any other hallucinating induced drugs. Keep in mind that Scarecrow's fear toxin doesn't affect the Joker because he's crazy, but does affect Batman.

Batman at times can be stubborn, cold, paranoid and obsessive to the point he can be perceived as unlikeable and self destructive e.g. developing contigency plans for the scenario of an out of control Justice League without telling them, but does that mean that he is bad at being a hero? No, it fucking doesn't. It's a very dishonest, reductive oversimplifcation of his moral character because it's contingent on the notion that his character is defined by his flaws and the bad things he's done. If we're going to go by the 2 digit IQ level logic that Batman is not a good hero because Ra's Al Ghul stole and exploited Batman's contingency plans for the scenario of an out of control Justice League, then by that logic, Cyclops would be a terrible hero because of what he did in Avengers vs X-Men, and that Ironman, Mr Fantastic and Dr Strange would terrible heroes for sending the Hulk into outer space, and Ironman would especially be a terrible hero for being a villain in the Civil War event. But no one is going to accept logic that unless they want to be consistent. Why? Because it's such a braindead logic to argue that these guys are incompetent heroes for doing bad things and it's a reductive oversimplification of their character as a whole. Batman has blatantly done a lot of good things and there's a reason why he's regarded as one of the greatest superheroes ever. Many superheroes have done bad things, Batman isn't the only one and it'd be very disengious and moralistic to give Batman shit for the bad things he's done, but give leeway to other superheroes. Besides, If Batman didn't have any of these flaws, he would just be a gary stu, and edgelords would bitch even more about Batman being a gary stu.

No one credible says that.

True. But it was a lot of fun to go into depth about how wrong these naysayers are.

Tags:

@professorrespect: @thor-parker: @ultraphoenix:

@namelessmonster said:

Usually its political commentators (mainly leftists) that say these kinds of things, unless Batman is a literal socialist crime fighter who beats up billionaires, he will always be judged harshly. Now I'm sure that there are leftists who've read Batman comics and would actually understand his impact on Gotham, but those people are few and far between, and a lot of the critiques of Batman could be said for many other heroes, but it seems to always be focused on him.

I guarantee if you asked some of these people what specific problems Wayne Enterprises has caused they wouldn't be able to point to a single one, because they simply don't know how Batman and his companies function.

@ultraphoenix: Oh, yeah I usally see them a lot on YouTube and some articles it's sad..

He is tho

Depending on the perception of view, unless you apply him to Real Life standards.

Eh, he's not crazy But when you compare him to Red Hood he's a bit of a cry baby.

He isn't tho

My perception is that he's as crazy as the people he locks up, he's just able to manifest that to a positive thing rather than stumbling through like the rest of em. Think of the spotlight analogy from the end of Killing Joke etc

So you're appealing to the comic book perception of mentall illness, but even by comic book perception on mental illness, Batman doesn't fit that bill which is proven by the fact that he's been affected by Scarecrow's fear toxin (e.g. The Long Halloween and Knightfall), which by the way had no effect on the Joker in Knightfall because he's crazy. Other hallucinogens have also clearly affected Batman (Full Circle). Plus, I posted numerous quotes from DC comic book writers and editors arguing against the idea of Batman, giving evidence that is supported by the comics themselves. I even posted a published synopsis of Batman: Full Circle which blatantly obviously screams that Batman isn't crazy.

The analogy that Joker brought up? You mean the same Joker who is proven wrong about human days and their bad days in the same story?

What’s the definition of insanity? we talking about the same character who refuses to kill anyone because he believes if he does he won’t be able to stop. But yeah not crazy in the slightest.

also just because you acknowledge something doesn’t mean you aren’t crazy .

You're right when you ask about the definition of insanity, but I'm specifically talking about the comic book perception of insanity, which is different than what insanity is in real life.

Batman also refuses to kill because he holds onto the belief that life is sacred. He also doesn't want to become a fugitive of the law, because the law will hunt Batman down and apprehend him if he used lethal methods, which is shown in Batman: Hush because Jim Gordon threatens to terminate his alliance with Batman and get the entire GCPD to hunt him down if he kills Joker.

That wasn't my entire argument.

I know but you kept saying that which is why I disagree with the idea that someone isn’t crazy just because they acknowledge how crazy or insane they are.

@vipersixteen: Fear gas just causes your worst fears to appear, etc. It's not a definition of crazyness especially when Arkham patients beyond Joker have responded badly to it as well lol. Batman responding to it simply shows that he has fear to exploit, not that he's actually sane. Being crazy doesn't = no fear etc

I think your argument is based too much around author intent tbh.

This argument completely falls apart when taking into account that Joker is not a fearless person. Joker is afraid of pain, which is why he panics when Batman gives him beatings (e.g. The Killing Joke), and when Batman tries to kill Joker (e.g. A Death in the Family and Hush). And it's not just fear gases that have affected Batman, he was also affected by an acid suicide trap that made him experience hallucinations in Batman: Full Circle.

The writers and editors I cited gave arguments that are actually supported by the comics themselves (e.g. Batman using meditation), and one of the sources I used is a published synopsis. So I'm not merely appealing to "author intent"

@wavyhero3467:

if batman beliefs life is sacred then he should kill the joker because dude kills 50 people a day but yea Gordon hunting down batman for killing joker is possibly the stupidest thing about batman comics and why I don’t like Batman comics in general compared to other batman related media. The joker has killed thousands of people if someone killed him they should be hailed as a hero.

In Post Crisis Canon, Batman has attempted to kill Joker twice, but failed each time because of outside interference, so yes Batman is willing to break his moral code to kill Joker if he's been pushed hard enough.

I know but you kept saying that which is why I disagree with the idea that someone isn’t crazy just because they acknowledge how crazy or insane they are.

Except...... Batman never acknowledged being crazy or insane. He just acknowledged that he will never be able to save everyone from having their families being murdered. But he still tries because he wants to get rid of crime.

He is a lil nutty

Eh my fault either way Tomato Tomato dude still can’t take a hint

I've not actually seen anyone say he "belongs in Arkham Asylum". There's many things you can say about Bruce's messed up psychology. For instance, like you said, his parents' murder is in large part what drives him forward, and he knows he cannot, and will not, let that memory go. At the same time however, he also won't kill no matter how much it would help the greater good, exactly because he does not want to see people die after that trauma he went through but won't leave behind. Yeah, his mentality is not exactly healthy, like at all, and I can understand why people say that he is "crazy", they do not say he is because of any mistakes he's made or "bad things he's done", they say it because of his character itself. I don't think anyone would disagree that he is a hero by definition.

@professorrespect:

That's not exactly true etc. He's laughed at punching and pain countless times etc, even in Pre Crisis where his character was pretty different (I.E was perfectly fine in killing Batman)

First and foremost, Pre Crisis Joker is irrelevant because I was never discussing anything related to Pre Crisis, I only ever talked about Post Crisis and the only elseworlds story that I ever talked about in the OP was Batman: War on Crime which is a one shot story, but that's it. And even in Post Crisis, Joker has proven willing to kill Batman (e.g. The Man Who Laughs by Ed Brubaker).

You can argue that Joker's fear of pain has varied throughout Post Crisis but you can't deny that he feared pain in stories like The Killing Joke because he cowered when Batman beats his ass after the Joker gives his monologue about his perception of human beings and their bad days. And Joker's fear of death is very clear, especially in the two occasions Batman tries killing Joker. Moreover, another clear example of Joker showing fear of Batman is when Batman and Robin travel abroad to Asia and find Joker trying to ally himself with Jihadis; in that instance Joker panicked at the fact that Batman found him.

Reacting to acid doesn't mean you ain't crazy etc. Guys like Kid Eternity took it just fine and he's crazy enough to see the raw essence of Hell brah

Actually it does because the Grim Reaper's acid that Batman reacted to in Full Circle literally drove Batman crazy, and the published synopsis of the story even alludes that Batman is at the risk of losing his sanity at the hands of the Grim Reaper.

Well, I have because Arkham Asylum is full of crazy people.

That's because that memory is what motivates him to fight crime. And there's more to Bruce's life than reliving the memory of his parents' deaths. He also meditates and exercises a lot, which are pretty healthy.

That's not completely true. Bruce has a very strong no kill policy, but he's proven willing to break it when he's been pushed hard enough. Bruce tries to kill Joker in in A Death in the Family and actually Bruce believes that Joker died in an exploding helicopter, but Joker survived and A Lonely Place of Dying later revealed that Joker survived the helicopter crash.

Bruce also nearly kills Joker in Batman: Hush, but Jim Gordon interfered and talked Bruce out of killing Joker.

Bruce also nearly strangled Alberto Falcone to death in The Long Halloween, but Gordon calms Bruce down and Bruce stops strangling Alberto. Dark Victory later reveals that Alberto nearly died from being strangled.

Bruce delibarately decided not to stop Superman from killing Lex Luthor in Public Enemies, and allowed Superman to make his own decision. Superman does spare Lex, but spares him on his own accord.

Bruce threatens to throw Scarecrow in a fire in Dark Victory, which suggests lethal intent because Batman usually doesn't make such dangerous threats and people have a really high chance of dying from being thrown in fire.

So yes, Bruce will kill if you push him hard enough. People really exaggerate how clingy Bruce is to his no kill policy.

What's healthy for someone might not be healthy for someone else. You've got to remember that Batman has a lot of fantasy elements in not just physical conditioning, but also mental conditioning. So does the Joker because mental illness doesn't cause people to become violent lunatics. In fact, it quite often leaves them more vulnerable to being victims of abuse. That's why Joker 2019 got critised for it's depiction of the correlation of mental illness and violence.

I've seen people say that Bruce is crazy because of the contingence plans he secretely made for the scenario of the JLA: Tower of Babel, that's why I spoke about why that doesn't mean Bruce is crazy.

You could argue that Bruce is on the edge, but he's definitely not over the edge in Post Crisis canon.

I think you spend alot of time in reddit

The Joker isn't scared of pain or death. His only goal is to get Batman to kill him, and to prove everyone has a tipping point. He doesn't care how painful his death is, just that it's Bruce who does it. So using Joker to prove Batman isn't crazy is a pretty mute point.

He's bonkers

You may say he's not crazy, but I can also say joker isn't crazy, that doesn't me neither of us are wrong. it's how we interpret the character since they are meant to be taken by multiple aspect due to multiple writer having different takes of the character. So there's no point in say he isn't crazy. But no one ever said being crazy = being bad, we're did that impression came from, he's good at what he does but crazy people are known for great things in history with vivid imagination.

And people really need to stop putting Grant Morrison on the pedestal it's getting rather annoying, he's not really much to write home about, and fanboys really need to stop casting praise over him for every little thing he does. his work on batman is rather boring. I personally prefer Alan Moore's take on the batman. I don't hate Grant Morrison at all, I actually love him, but the constant praise just gets on my nerves.

OK.

@professorrespect said:

You can argue that Joker's fear of pain has varied throughout Post Crisis but you can't deny that he feared pain in stories like The Killing Joke because he cowered when Batman beats his ass

Cowering isn't exactly a sign of fear: it can be done automatically in response to painful stimuli, fear or otherwise.

Dude, cowering is literally when you crouch down in fear, and this isn't helping your point. If Joker cowered due to pain, then he clearly doesn't enjoy pain and he never laughs off the pain.

Yes, Joker is afraid of death in those situations meant the game ending for him, which he is afraid of. He literally ran away in blatant fear from Batman when Batman had the perfect excuse to kill Joker in A Death in the Family, and even screams NOOOOO when Batman tries to kill Joker under the illusion that Joker killed Thomas Elliott in Hush. It takes incredible amounts of wilful ignorance to argue that Joker wasn't scared in those situations. But at least you implicitly admitted that Joker has a fear of "the game ending" which is some progress.

Lol, I love how you oversimplify by argument by selectively quoted where I said the Grim Reaper's drove Batman crazy... But ommitted the part where I mentioned the fact that the published Synopsis of Year Two and Full Circle alludes that Batman is at the risk of going crazy at the hands of the Grim Reaper's revelations, a quote I posted in the OP. Are you going to keep ignoring that synopsis, or are you going to argue that your word is more reliable than a synopsis published by DC Comics?

Batman can't already be crazy when he is alluded to be at the risk of losing his sanity in his encounters with the Grim Reaper. If he was already crazy, then there would be no risk of him losing his sanity because he's already lost his sanity beforehand. So your whole argument that there are different degrees of crazy is rendered moot due to the fact that it's contingent on an oversimplification of my argument for Batman's encounter with the Grim Reaper in Full Circle.

That's not what insanity is. He does that to keep his city as safe as possible, and Batman has made Gotham a much better place. By your logic, Spider-Man is insane because he consistently repeats his never-ending mission of atoning for Uncle Ben's death.

This is also true ofc. The idea that Joker is scared of pain when he's been shown to laugh it off countless times even in the face of multiversal beings who could rip him apart in a million ways is some pretty terrible takes.

Yeah I think this guy doesn't get that you CAN be crazy but put that to a positive use I.E his obsession on fighting crime, but that doesn't mean that he's not got some serious neurosis going on. The whole Batman mission is a defence mechanism of a broken man at the end of the day, no matter how much he likes to say that Wayne moniker is just a mask.

This is pretty incorrect. Joker visibly expresses fear at Batman in the first two panels of this comic page, which is before Batman even touches Joker:

Joker's fear only increases when Batman grabs Joker by the coat. Arguing that Joker's reaction is exclusively based on pain is pretty rudimentray analysis.

That still show that Joker isn't completely fearless. A fear is still a fear. He's afraid of being killed by Batman which is shown in ADeath in the Family, because he ran away in fear of a blood lusted Batman the moment Batman has the perfect excuse to kill Joker for murdering Jason:

Not to mention, Joker has a conspicuously fearful demeanour whilst running away from Batman and and is relieved when he reaches the helicopter, thinking that he has a chance to escape Batman's wrath, and even begs his ally on the helicopter to get him out of there, shouting "MOVE IT! Get us out of here!" but Joker's demeanour changes to a more fearful expression when realizing that Batman managed to grab onto the helicopter.

Joker's fear of being killed by Batman is shown again the second time Batman tries to kill him in Post Crisis canon because Joker repeatedly screams "NO!" in this situation:

Now you're arguing from your own personal incredulity, which is very fallacious and throwing the source material under the bus even though the aforementioned source material doesn't actually contradict the story it's summarising. The Synopsis itself is from the DC Comics publisher and nicely complimented by Dennis O'Neil and Grant Morrison. So the synopsis is far more valid evidence than your musings because it doesn't actually contradict Full Circle, they just contradict your preconcieved notions. If there was an actual contradiction in story, then you would have a valid point.

That's not what insanity actually is in definition, that's just an old saying that was attributed to Albert Einstein and we don't even know if he actually said that. By that logic, Spider-Man's own motive makes him insane because he is consistently repeating his never-ending mission to atone for Uncle Ben's death. Is Spider-Man also insane?

Terrible analogy. I do not have to take these literally as well because those synopsis actually contradict Odin and Galactus's powerset. The Year Two/Full Circle synopsis doesn't contradict the story it's talking about and it's ironically supported by Dennis O'Neil and Grant Morrison. This isn't to say that Grant Morrison and Dennis O'Neil's words are gospel on their own, but they do reinforce the DC Comics' published Synopsis of Year Two/Full Circle 30th anniversary edition.

True. I think trying to make the argument either way is never going to be concrete, but the idea that he can be proven otherwise through such weak evidence is a really bad one.

@professorrespect:

Surprise sure, fear is quite debatable.

Fear and surprise aren't mutually exclusive.

Debatable. Joker's whole gimmick in his later material is getting Batman to kill him for the sake of making him break his rule. Bringing up old, barely past Pre Crisis material (a singular year after COIE) where Joker wasn't close to the character he is today is very hard to believe.

Joker has tried to kill Batman in Knightfall too, circa 1993:

Joker tells Scarecrow to blast Batman "to Guano" and Scarecrow tries to shoot Batman, but misses because of his poor aim (likely due to being injured and exhausted) and Batman visibly panics at the mere sight of nearly being shot. This is

For a much more recent example, The Man Who Laughs, published in 2005, explicitly shows Joker trying to kill Batman:

The entire gimmick of Joker wanting to kill Batman only started in mainsteam continuity after The Dark Knight came out in 2008 because Heath Ledger's Joker became so iconic and critically acclaimed, partially because his Joker wanted to be killed by Batman.

Even then, your scans show him laughing after getting shot anyway.

That could easily be attributed to the fact that Joker knows he's going to survive... Which he does, as later revealed in A Lonely Place of Dying. And it's a very hollow laugh too.

AKA not using basic synopsises ofc. That's the point.

Published synopsis is still more valid than a comic vine user's takes, especially when the latter contradicts the former.

It's a definition ofc, through I wouldn't be so literal about it lol

Grief motivates Spider-Man ofc, but even he is aware of his limitations, even quits a few times because of said limitations out of frustration Batman is different because he's relentlessly going after it, ignores his personal life and considers it merely a mask for his crime-fighting duties, etc. I don't need to go into the horrendous things he's done for that mission, from being a drug addict to causing multiple international incidents due to his paranoia and need for control.

Bruce has quit his crime fighting life when he recognises his own limitations too. For example, he quits being Batman in Knightfall because Bane broke his back, so Bruce goes into retirement for a while and lets Jean Paul Valley and Tim Drake to lead the war against crime whilst Gotham is being ruined by Bane. Even in other continuities like the DCAU, Bruce retires from being Batman in Batman Beyond because of old age as well as the fact that he had to resort to using a gun.

Ah, so it's only a contradiction when you see it as such? That's very disappointing. The idea that Batman can be somehow ruled out as being not mentally well because "well they said he COULD go insane in this random statement written by someone for DC" is extremely weak. His motives prove that very well, and just because authors have a idea on a character doesn't mean we take that literally as well, lest we start thinking Stan Lee thinking Spider-Man can fight Thor or Hulk on equal terms is something to covet as well lol

It's a contradict when it's an actual contradiction. But there is no contradiction between Year Two/Full Circle and the published synopsis of it, if anything they actually compliment each other, but you're just forcing contradictions to suit your preconcieved notions. The idea that Bruce is not sane and that official sources can somehow be ruled out because "well this guy on comic vine thinks he has a better understanding of Bruce Wayne than the offical sources" is extremely weak. His motives don't prove that he's insane and he's recognised his limitations, and even when I used Dennis O'Neil and Grant Morrison's statements, I even gave examples of what they mentioned e.g. Bruce using advanced meditation techniques that he learned from Kirigi to reduce his stress, and I didn't simply argue "well these guys say Bruce is not crazy so let's just take their word for it!"

Also, using authors takes on who would win in a fight is another terrible analogy because whoever wins a fight is determined by who the writer wants to win when writing the script, and the same Stan Lee has admitted this.

How much I love Batman. Batman is crazy. It is a character flaw.

You will think I'm crazy for dressing up as flying rodent. Not to mention I employ teen sidekicks. Who happened to be my adopted kids. Where those kids fight supervillains. Some villains will either freeze you, incinerate you, maim or possibly even end up sleeping with the fishes.

If I was a random joe who only had superficial knowledge about Batman, yeah I probably would think Batman is crazy.

@professorrespect:

But one doesn't mean the other, ofc.

Joker doesn't just cower. He blatantly looks terrified of Batman when Batman is holding him by his shirt and about to punch him in the 6th panel, and even murmurs "Fuhhh..." which clearly shows that he's in fear:

Joker is even raising his hand, which is even more proof that he is terrifed.

"kill" is a strong word etc. Joker knows how competent Batman is and knows that a doctor with no firearm experience and him fighting with a hammer isn't gonna defeat Batman lol. Even the N52 made the notion that Joker didn't want to actually kill Batman at any point.

Yeah, Joker knows that Batman is competent, but Joker is also an overconfident egomaniac who overestimates himself. In fact, the fact that Joker tells Scarecrow to use a rocket launcher to shoot Batman "to Guano" speaks volumes about how desperate Joker was to escape recieving another beating from an enraged Batman.

Debatable considering he was in a crashing helicopter and wounded, even Batman saying that he'll be lucky to survive, I'm not so sure.

Yes, Joker was lucky to survive, but for a comic book medium that's a lot more heightened than reality, it's perfectly plausible that Joker knew he was going to survive. Heck, I can even alternatively argue that Joker laughed because he wanted to save face, which makes sense in-character because he's an egomaniac.

It's a basic summing up of the plot. Not exactly the smoking gun etc

It also doesn't contradict the plot it that it's summing up. Not exactly an unreliable source.

That's because of a physical limitation: Batman literally couldn't do the job anymore, he couldn't move.

No shit.

Without the mask he gets massively depressed to the point that he even refuses to remember a number plate after he gets assaulted because it's pointless to him.

That just proves that Bruce is happier when he is able to fight crime.

Another terrible decision, considering Jean Paul was a rookie and Bruce knew he had baggage from "The System" that Jean Paul had unconsciously influencing him. Even later on people openly tell him how bad this choice was.

Yeah I know it was a bad decision, but it's good for Batman's character because it's another example of Bruce's flaws.

It's a contradiction because relying on a synopses when there's a lot more pointing the other way is hard to believe.

Everything that suggests otherwise is based on your idea of what Batman's character should be rather than what it actually is.

Death of the Author ofc. Authors have different visions for the same character and diffferent definitions, so the idea that we can throw them all together to make a single clunky generalised statement is hard to believe.

That's true. Different authors have different ideas. However, when I quoted Dennis O'Neil and Grant Morrison in the OP, these guys gave actual arguments for why Bruce isn't crazy, and their arguments made sense in-character and I gave an example of how the comics support their explanation e.g. Bruce using advanced meditation techniques.

Doesn't not make him crazy ofc, unless no crazy people meditate

Meditation is literally a technique that enables one to achieve a mentally clear and emotionally calm and stable state, and relieves problems like anxiety, heart disease and high blood pressure. Bruce's attempt to use meditation demonstrably helped in the scan I posted.

It's the same as using them for even more complex and nuanced things like madness and character motivation etc

No it's not. It's actually very different, especially in this case because Dennis O'Neil and Grant Morrison gave detailed explanations that make sense on account of Bruce's character.

@professorrespect:

Debatable, it could just be due to Batman slogging him in the stomach and him bleeding afterwards, showing that he's broken something there. You assume fear comes from pain, not just pain causing these physical things to occur.

This doesn't make any sense considering that there's no visible sign that there's something broken e.g. a crunch effect. What makes more sense is that Joker is terrifed of recieving more of a beating from Batman in account of Joker murmuring, showing a frightened face and raising his hand at the same time.

He's overconfident but he's self-aware about his role as a villain, ofc. He knows his role and how to play it but that doesn't mean he thinks Batman is gonna lose via him and a crowbar. It's a game to him.

Joker didn't have a crowbar in that situation, he and Scarecrow had a freaking rocket launcher.... Which is far more dangerous than a crowbar... And it makes sense in character that Joker thinks that the rocket launcher will be enough to defeat Batman because... Yeno, a rocket launcher can kill people when it directly hits them, and Batman also visibly panics even when Scarecow's shot misses and ends up hitting the ceiling instead.

I don't think that was the case tbf. Joker doesn't have any reason to assume that considering Batman doesn't even get him out of the thing.

Bro. Batman didn't even want to get Joker out of the exploding helicopter... He literally wanted to kill Joker and delibarately left Joker in there to die.

It's fine as a self-contained source but using it as a smoking gun to suggest Batman is NOT crazy is a really hard take to believe.

But I wasn't basing my entire argument on that source and that one source alone.

It shows that he can't function without that role, yea. It's not a case of being "happier" it's a case of him being incapable of functioning without the cowl. Guy was clinically depressed and needed voodoo hypno magic to get better physically. If Spider-Man was in the same role he'd be gutted but he'd still try to function ofc. Earth-X has him be incapable of being a hero due to legality but becomes a cop instead, something Bruce could easily do with his resources and natural intellect despite being paralysed.

It is a case of him being happier as Batman. He was unable to function without being Batman because Bruce wants to be Batman and likes being Batman so much that he considers his costumed identity to be his real identity and his civillian identity to be a mask.

Dangerous flaws, etc. Without the cowl Batman's common sense goes out the window and he makes a inexperienced religious nut take his place. That doesn't sound rational to me.

Bruce was also in a terrible place physically and mentally. He didn't just lose the cape and cowl, he also got his back broken and was recovering from extreme mental and physical exhaustion because he burns himself out trying to keep a lid on the criminal underworld thanks to Bane freeing criminals from Arkham Asylum.

Grant Morrison says meditation = not crazy

Grant Morrison says a lot of other things too. He brings up Bruce physical exercise routines, the fact that Bruce's costumed identity enabled him to channel the feelings of grief, guilt and helpness he felt over his parents' deaths, and that as Batman, Bruce becomes an urban legend and can actually help his city the best way he can, and that he'd go mad if he hadn't become Batman etc.

All of these things make sense in-character.

and O'Neil thinks that crazy people aren't superheroes despite Batman being obsessed, has no private life away from the mask, shuts himself away for most of his life, and is openly incapable of functioning otherwise. Those judgements are naturally flawed.

Bruce does actually have a private life away outside of the cape and cowl. He has a surrogate father/son relationship with his butler Alfred, he's a surrogate father to his adopted sons Dick, Tim and Jason. Your judgement of O'Neil's arguments are contingent on the misconception that Batman is a loner, when that's only really true early on in his career. And O'Neil also argued that Batman gives Bruce's life meaning, which actually makes sense when taking into account that Bruce struggled to function when he couldn't operate as Batman, so you're actually helping my argument by bringing up the fact that Bruce struggled to function without the cape and cowl because that lends credence to Morrison's statement that Bruce would've gone mad if he hadn't become Batman.

O'Neil thinks that this self-destructive lifestyle is a GOOD thing because Batman fights crime and doesn't cause it. By his logic Moon Knight would also be a positive social influence despite his neurosis. By his logic Moon Knight would also be a positive social influence despite his neurosis.

Yes, O'Neil thinks it is a GOOD thing for Bruce that he became a crime fighting superhero, which is actually true because prior to Batman, Gotham was flooded with organised crime and the GCPD was so corrupt that corrupt cops Arnold Flass had no qualms about beating people up under the unproven assumption they had some illegal items, when all they had was a comb. Not to mention, Flass and the other corrupt cops were so uncomfortable with Gordon because of his strong moral compass and refusal to allow the GCPD to entice him into giving into their ways, that they all brutally beat him up to put him in his place, but were careful enough to not hurt him so much to be require being hospitalized. When Batman showed up, he managed to reduce crime in Gotham, improved the GCPD by removing the corrupt cops, helped the GCPD fight the mob families and so on. O'Neil's remarks about Batman being a positive social influence are referring to how he's made Gotham a better place.

And the idea that no crazy people are going to meditate as well is a notion that literally can't be true, lol. Vader mediates intensely and he's a PTSD-ridden mess that has random visions of his past. Lord Death Man is literally a crazy dude who mediates to mimic death but he's a maniac that has no care of his own life or others.

This is such a horrible analogy because Darth Vader and Lord Death Man aren't remotely similar to Batman character wise, and they use meditation for different purposes. Vader uses meditation to bolster his connection to the Dark Side of the Force and become more powerful, Lord Death Man meditates to mimic death. Batman uses meditation to reduce fatigue that's mental and physical to keep his health in check as much as he can.

@vipersixteen: @professorrespect:

Batman dresses up as flying rodent. He beats up the homeless,mentally challenged, and the poor. Would you think that is normal? Bruce doesn't actually stop crime. Dick Grayson managed to fix Bludhaven. Crime dropped down rapidly.

Batman does it for his own personal gratification.

This is also true tbf. Nightwing had Bludhaven, a far worse off city by comparison (just a even poorer Gotham with less resources) at the edge of a full peace agreement with the police and the gangs before Chemo got dropped on it.

By comparison Batman's been doing the same thing with dozens of times more resources to play with and hasn't even gotten close to that goal.

@vipersixteen: @professorrespect:

The batkids are better than batman is. Even Tim Drake and Jason Todd are way effective.

How much superman gets hate. Unless he gets the job done. Superman would fix Gotham within a week.

Post Crisis Jason Todd was an anti-villain/villain that challenged Batman's philosophy. Batman's methods don't work.

@vipersixteen: @professorrespect:

Ra's Al Ghul killed the Joker. Batman brought the Joker back to life.

Source of the comic scan.

https://arousinggrammar.com/2012/10/02/batman-vs-joker-vs-ras-al-ghul/

@elvinisaev42:

Your arguments are so sanctimonious, moralistic and cringe inducing that they're borderline copypasta material.

I literally already explained why Bruce dresses up as "a flying rodent" in the OP. Bruce Wayne dresses up as a bat is that he wants to feared by criminals. Bruce is also personifying his childhood fear of bats because he fell into a well of bats as a child. Dressing up as a bat isn't exactly normal, but neither is someone who dresses up like an American flag, or someone who dresses wears a red outfit with a double DD on the chest and horns on the head, or someone who wears a red and blue outfit with a big S on the chest. Superheroes who dress in skin tight outfits don't exactly look normal and they're not supposed to look normal. These costumes are an essential element of the vigilante persona that they need to adopt when fighting crime and protecting the innocent, and it's also one of the fantasy elements in comics.

Bruce beats up criminals who happen to be murderers, thieves, rapists, gangsters etc. bringing up that Gotham is full of people that are "poor" and "mentally ill" and "homeless" to make Batman look bad for fighting criminals is an SJW tier argument. And even when Batman fights criminals, he doesn't even beat them up. He'll hang them upside down and interrogate them, and there are even occasions where he can interrogate them without having to hang them upside down.

I never said Bruce was normal. Superheros in general aren't normal and they're not supposed to be normal because they're fictional characters. Bruce doesn't completely stop crime, but he has made Gotham a better place and even tries helping other places, which is supported by the source material: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/bruce-waynes-philanthropy-2115735/

Also, as for that time Bruce resurrected Joker after Joker got killed Ra's, the very scan you used to make Batman look bad destroys your argument because Ra's says "He offers you a dilemma. To save the world you must save the life of your bravest enemy. A ranchid humour he has developed by overstaying his welcome on this planet" which gives Bruce an actual reason to resurrect Joker.

@professorrespect:

Apart from him bleeding internally and having blood appear etc

That doesn't explain why Joker looks terrified of Batman to the point he murmuring showing a frightened face and raising his hand at the same time the moment Batman raises his fist again. Joker doesn't need to do all that to convey internal bleeding. The explanation that makes the most sense is that Joker was terrified of Batman and didn't want Batman to continue beating him up, considering that Joker has expressed fear at being tracked down overseas by Batman and Robin when Joker was making a deal with terrorists:

Joker isn't merely surprised at Batman here. He's clearly terrified and panicking, which is conveyed by his entire demeanour and the fact that he blatantly shouts "NO! IT CAN'T BE HIM! NOT HERE!" out loud. And don't try being disengenious and reductive by dismissing this as "but but but Joker was just surprised to see Batman!" because he really wasn't.

I'm talking about the other occasion where he tries to go 1 v 1 with Batman with a crowbar. You really think he thinks he's gonna kill Batman like that?

Why not? In The Man Who Laughs (2005), Joker literally tried to kill Batman with a freaking hammer:

Joker: Okay--just have to kill you, instead!

Joker: Okay--just have to kill you, instead!

Joker: Okay--just have to kill you, instead!

In the hands of a doctor who has no firearms experience ofc

And Joker thought that doctor with no firearms experience was going to succeed in blasting Batman. Joker was proven wrong, but his actions still prove that he trusted Scarecrow.

As anyone would when a rocket launcher is pulled out

True, but the fact that Batman was so blatantly and obviously scared speaks volumes of how much danger he thought he was in, considering that Batman tries his best to be stoic.

He didn't have time etc. Guy had enough to get himself out and not Joker as well, who was injured and couldn't even stand up.

But Batman didn't even want to rescue Joker... He accepts the prospect that Joker won't escape the explosion and even says farewell to Joker. Whether Batman thinks he could've saved Joker or not is a red herring because he was had no problem with the idea of Joker dying. Plus, it's also perfectly plausible that Joker laughed because he wanted to save face, which makes sense in-character because Joker is an egomaniac.

There's a difference between being able to be better with the cowl and being incapable of functioning without it, Bruce is in that corner. He's clearly not supposed to be stable if he can't function without his alter-ego working lol.

Being incapable of functioning without the cowl proves that he is better with the cowl, because the cowl enables him to function.

Mental and physical exhaustion is what he does on a regular basis etc. He regularly goes without sleep and misses meals to crimefight. It was the fact that he couldn't be Batman that tore him apart really.

Yeah because being Batman is what gives Bruce's life meaning.

Patrick Bateman has a complex exercise routine. Doesn't make him not crazy ofc

Another terrible analogy that is only superificial level. Patrick Bateman is crazy because he's psychopath who tortures and kills people for fun and keeps human body parts in a fridge. A very different character from Batman.

That's a core essence of the character, yeah. That doesn't mean ofc that he's mentally well, it just means that he's channelling that into a crimefighting persona.

No, it means that his costumed persona is what keeps his sanity in check and that he would lose his sanity if he can't be Batman. This is proven when Bruce was unable to function without the cowl after getting his back broken by Bane.

Debatable. Batman needs to learn the lession of needing other people to help him out multiple times over, and he openly keeps his inner family away from everything: he hid EYE from them, he hid a lot of things over the years when he deemed it necessary.

That's because Batman is stubborn and doesn't want to show weakness to the people around him, and let's be honest, a lot of people don't want to show weakness and vulnerability around others.

Being able to operate doesn't mean mentally well, ofc. Batman just found a personal obsession to go over, like many do.

Yes it does when that's how his character is written to work.

And Gotham these days is flooded with organised crime, just of the more colourful sort.

But it's still better than it was before organised crime became more colourful.

Actually, Batman Eternal already made that point, etc. When the mob left it just left a vacuum for guys like Joker and Batman's rogues to take over. Sure the GCPD were corrupt but I doubt as many people died compared to now lol

Yeah that's true. The mob was replaced by super villains. The only way Batman would be able to beat them permanently is probably if he killed them all. The Batman Who Laughs: The Grim Knight #1 explores the idea of what Batman would be like if he was the Punisher. In that Elseworlds story, he kills all criminals and corrupt law enforcement, Grim Knight's lethal methods are so ruthless and efficient that he didn't even have a rogues gallery because he killed them all before they became super villains. And it's not outside the realm of possibility that people got killed all the time before Batman began his career, only for the deaths to be mitigated when Batman began his crusade.

Also Moon Knight should be a positive influence as well because he's crimefighting as well, no? That doesn't mean you ain't crazy, that just means you fight crime. You can be both.

Yes you can fight crime and be crazy, but but your Moon Knight analogy is very superficial because Moon Knight is crazy due to having dissociative identity disorder. Batman doesn't suffer from that, he has an alter ego as Bruce Wayne, but that's just a facade. Not to mention, Batman is a superhero, whereas Moon Knight isn't a superhero, he's an anti-hero. Moon Knight is also a lot more brutal and violent than Batman.

What's the difference between Batman using it to hone his concentration for combat?

The difference is so obvious. Vader's use of meditation is performed under the use of the dark side of the Force, which is ultimately about madness, despair and suffering. The dark side of the Force literally causes you to prematurely age, also known as Dark Side degradation, because its powers are too much for the body. Vader's use of meditation is performed to gather and increase his powers, but that all comes at the expense of his body being prematurely aged. You can tell Vader prematurely aged because he's in his mid 40s as of his death in RotJ, but looks and sounds much older and is played by actor Sebastian Shaw, who was in his 70s during the making of RotJ. Lord Death Man performs meditation for the purpose of faking his own death. The purpose of Batman's use of meditation is that it's performed for the purpose of bolstering his health, which is the opposite of what Vader and Lord Death Man use it for. Furthermore, Vader and Lord Death Man are very different characters to Batman, whose similarities are very surface level.

....the same trick Batman's done and learned, ofc. Lord Death Man mastered mediation as much as he did that he could accomplish that

You really need to stop with these terrible analogies. Batman using meditation to fake his own death isn't the only purpose of his use of meditation and it's a different use of meditation from using it to bolster his own health. Using meditation to fake death is at best a tertiary purpose for Batman's ability to meditate. But for Lord Death Man, using meditation to fake his death is a very important character character trait because the character himself is literally about death. Does Lord Death Man use meditation for his own health?

@vipersixteen: I'm sorry to say this. Your response was pretentious. I apologize this offends you. I prefer Dick,Tim, and even Marvel's Daredevil.

People loose their minds what is going in todays police. Imagine the negative reaction would Batman receive beating an ethnic minority to an inch of his life.

@professorrespect: My response to vipersixteen.