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#1 Posted by christphervang (56 posts) - - Show Bio

I just watched batman under the red hood and yes ik im a few years late but watching this just deepened my hate for batman. At the end he basically admits that if he kills the joker he wouldn't be able to stop himself from killing everyone (villain) else. All this shows is that batman is a character is very weak willed.

Even before the movie i still had this annoyance when it came to heroes not killing their villains because it made absolutely no sense. The there's that argument that people bring up that if a hero kills a villain it in turn makes them a murderer making the percentage of murders stay the same but wouldn't that be a good thing. The reason being is that unlike a villain a hero knows there bound they're able to stop themselves and anything they do is for the betterment of others thus stopping them from going down the villainous path.

People also seem to believe that if your a murdered your automatically a villain which is a rather weird perspective to have. With that belief people in the armed forces are villains, people who kill as self defence are villains and if someone kills someone that has killed thousand that makes the killer a villain. That way of thinking is just false in so many way possible.

With what i wrote i don't even think any dc and marvel hero is a good hero. Imo the ideal hero would be goku and even i would put dr.halsey as a hero. A hero isn't someone that dresses up and saves people a hero is someone who can rationally outweigh the odds.

Also the only reason why heroes don't kill villains is because of money if there was no more villains then there wouldn't be a way to write compelling comics so yea business could be the reason why.

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5bb6a6f86dc65 (4972 posts) - - Show Bio

Also the only reason why heroes don't kill villains is because of money if there was no more villains then there wouldn't be a way to write compelling comics so yea business could be the reason why.

Bingo.

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#3 Posted by kgb725 (18095 posts) - - Show Bio

I just watched batman under the red hood and yes ik im a few years late but watching this just deepened my hate for batman. At the end he basically admits that if he kills the joker he wouldn't be able to stop himself from killing everyone (villain) else. All this shows is that batman is a character is very weak willed.

Even before the movie i still had this annoyance when it came to heroes not killing their villains because it made absolutely no sense. The there's that argument that people bring up that if a hero kills a villain it in turn makes them a murderer making the percentage of murders stay the same but wouldn't that be a good thing. The reason being is that unlike a villain a hero knows there bound they're able to stop themselves and anything they do is for the betterment of others thus stopping them from going down the villainous path.

People also seem to believe that if your a murdered your automatically a villain which is a rather weird perspective to have. With that belief people in the armed forces are villains, people who kill as self defence are villains and if someone kills someone that has killed thousand that makes the killer a villain. That way of thinking is just false in so many way possible.

With what i wrote i don't even think any dc and marvel hero is a good hero. Imo the ideal hero would be goku and even i would put dr.halsey as a hero. A hero isn't someone that dresses up and saves people a hero is someone who can rationally outweigh the odds.

Also the only reason why heroes don't kill villains is because of money if there was no more villains then there wouldn't be a way to write compelling comics so yea business could be the reason why.

Heroes don't need to kill every villain they come across

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#4 Posted by Lil_Remains (1610 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku, the child endangerer, is apparently a “real” hero.

The same Goku that put the entire multiverse in danger for a little bit of fun?

Ok, buddy

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#5 Posted by MarvelandDCfan24 (6943 posts) - - Show Bio

Dumb

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#6 Posted by LEGACY6364 (7441 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman has always been a terrible hero. Just a well written one.

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#7 Posted by TheInsufferable (2583 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say the fact that the villains are always escaping is mostly the prison and Gotham authority's fault, but yeah, there's a lot about Batman that is questionable.

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#8 Edited by mimisalome (5341 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that excuse is pretty logical if we believed that Bruce is a repressed serial killer.

I mean he had all the red flag of a typical serial killer/psychopath

- white male (lol)

- double life

- damp dark underground dungeon filled with morbid contraptions

- collecting trophies

- unhealthy fetishism for bats and spandex costumes

- he loves to dominate and torture helpless street punks

- high IQ

- low EQ

So if he ever kill someone he might end up enjoying it, turning him into a serial killer.

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#9 Posted by SocaJunkie (7914 posts) - - Show Bio

Yep, to your first section especially, I agree since I thought Batman was supposed to have inhuman willpower.

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#10 Posted by depinhom (13506 posts) - - Show Bio

You're saying what I'm thinking, man.

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#11 Posted by depinhom (13506 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher>>>>>>>>>>Batman

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#12 Posted by Green_Tea (10339 posts) - - Show Bio

I’d prefer not every hero to start acting like the Punisher.

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#13 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (2770 posts) - - Show Bio

The thing is though Batman is insane. He is very obviously a sociopath so why do you expect reason from him? That's why he's an interesting character though because he's just as insane as his villians.

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#14 Posted by Blubber (939 posts) - - Show Bio

Haters gonna Hate

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#15 Posted by christphervang (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@lil_remains: @lil_remains: If i can remember correctly goku didn't know that the opposing universes would get erased he only found out after the rules and such was set.

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#17 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (2770 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: He's not meant to be perfect, he's the opposite of Superman.

I know he's not meant to be perfect and I said that's why he's an interesting character.

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#19 Posted by CrawlerWing_Night (252 posts) - - Show Bio

How is giving in to your emotions and temptations to kill an evil villain considered showing willpower?? Willpower is going against what would come from emotional impulse or natural reaction. Showing restraint from killing Joker after he murdered Jason was and extreme display of willpower. Killing him would have been too easy. It is literally what anyone would have done in his situation, meaning it showed willpower not to

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#20 Edited by Deathman2000 (19 posts) - - Show Bio

I love that part of his character though

He's crazy...let him cross the line once and he won't be stopped that's why everyone fear him including his friends

The dude could kill all his enemies i think even his dark mirror (yeah,i call him that) Deathstroke stated that he could kill him but he would not be Batman anymore and in another fight he said "That should of been a killing blow but not for the Dark knight because he doesn't KILL".

But i would never want him to kill he would turn into the Bat who laugh and kill everything on sight or turn into Owlman and decide to end all life in the multiverse

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#21 Edited by DeathandGrim (4777 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku is not a good example. But I get what you're saying about Batman to a point.

But you have to understand: Batman isn't the law. This is why he may beat criminals to a pulp but doesn't cuff them, process them, and take them away. He leaves that to law enforcement and the proper authorities. It's a thin line he treads being a somewhat lawful vigilante. But he knows he'd betray the very system he seeks to champion by outright murdering even dangerous criminals even like Joker.

You're not the only person to notice this. Entire plotlines, one shots, and movies have been centered around Batman's strange compelling philosophy. ("I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you.")

It's honestly been what I love about his character and Superman's too. How they themselves could very easily subjugate everyone around them to their interpretation of the law but choose not to. Because when they do there's never a far enough for either of these two. And things can get messy fast.

No Caption Provided

It takes far more will than you're giving him credit for.

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#22 Posted by CrawlerWing_Night (252 posts) - - Show Bio

To me this doesn’t seem to be about Batman being a good or terrible hero, but that the OP just doesn’t like heroes.

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#23 Posted by christphervang (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@crawlerwing_night: That's the thing batman doesn't have enough willpower to stop himself if he did kill joker that's why i don't consider him as a hero because a hero would be able to kill said villain whilst stopping themselves from going down that villainous path.

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#24 Posted by christphervang (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathandGrim2: Yeah ik i could of used someone better as goku but i just used him simply because he had no quarrel with killing villains albeit he does show softness when he gave frieza energy to leave the planet before it blew up.

But to respond to your post

When the pros greatly outweigh the cons ethics and morality should not have a say on whether the action was justified or not. And you know i think that whole not passing the law thing is bs because if joker was real he would of been given the death sentence a long time ago so i think its more or a plot device to somewhat justify his philosophy.

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#25 Edited by Batvibe12 (5473 posts) - - Show Bio

That's nice to know.

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#26 Posted by DeathandGrim (4777 posts) - - Show Bio

@christphervang: Criminal insanity is an actual plea that someone like Joker would be able to easily claim in order to get out of consequence. Most Serial murderers make an attempt at that appeal. However in Joker's case he would most likely have success with that because he's nuts. It's just Arkham does not hold him long. And yea it sucks the Justice System is designed to be reactive and not proactive.

I do like that Batman believes in the process despite how much pain it causes him and others, but I agree he should just kill Joker. But Batman just can't bring himself to that level.

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#27 Posted by The_Rayman (12 posts) - - Show Bio

Saying that heroes should execute villains is the same as saying that police officers should execute criminals off-records.

Are you a fascist, OP?

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#28 Posted by samhmd1 (705 posts) - - Show Bio

One recent explanation given is that if Batman ever did kill Joker or anyone else, Gordon would now have to treat Batman like a criminal and hunt him down. Gordon actually outright said this to Batman in the first Hush story when he nearly beat Joker to death.

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#29 Posted by HandOfPrometheus (877 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys make it sound like its easy to just go around and kill people no matter the evil deed.

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#30 Posted by The_Rayman (12 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys make it sound like its easy to just go around and kill people no matter the evil deed.

Nerds read Punisher and believe that killing people is something that should be casual and easy to do.

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#31 Posted by christphervang (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_rayman: My view is that when the pros greatly outweigh the cons outside influence shouldn't have a say on whether the action was justified or not. Joker has killed thousands at least so killing him imo would be justifiable. Your average criminal isn't even killing anyone so if any law enforcement was to kill said criminal it would be unjust.

Even then unlike the comic our law enforcements does act upon the death penalty.

Anyways i'm not a fascist but at the same time i've always been a pragmatic thinker even if both options had violence in them

I mean that's why i view Dr.Halsey as a hero

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#32 Posted by The_Rayman (12 posts) - - Show Bio

@christphervang: Namor has killed more innocent people than the Joker has, yet not only is he treated as a hero but he also has married heroines falling in love with him.

Why are you upset at Batman for not executing the Joker? Why aren't you upset at Marvel heroes for treating a much deadlier villain as a hero?

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#33 Posted by christphervang (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@handofprometheus: Your generalizing evil deed. A person can break into a house and that counts as an evil deed the joker kills thousands and that's an evil deed and although both are vastly different in terms of seriousness with your generalization the burglar should be killed just cause like joker he did an evil deed.

My post wasn't to say hey if your doing bad you get sent to the block my point i was trying to get across was that if the pros greatly outweigh the cons no outside influence should have a say on whether the action was justified or not.

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#34 Posted by Gokluma (8269 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not Batman's job to kill him and let's face it Death is basically pointless in comics since writers will always bring them back for popularity

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#35 Posted by christphervang (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_rayman: I dont view either heroes from both comics as heros i even pointed that out.

Namor as a character has a lot of grey areas he acts upon which would benefit atlantis so it really depends on your point of view on whether he is a hero or villain.

I've always seen him as a villain but i'm not as upset because in most cases he does those villainous things he does it for his people.

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#36 Posted by The_Rayman (12 posts) - - Show Bio

@christphervang: When Namor invades New York and kills its citizens, how exactly are his people benefiting from it?

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#37 Posted by christphervang (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_rayman: @handofprometheus:Noone is saying it should be easy but if you have the opportunity to take 1 life in order to save thousands you shouldn't have to hesitate in killing said person.

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#38 Posted by christphervang (56 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_rayman: I didn't say all of his acts of violence led to the benefit of atlantis why do you think i view him as a villain. I merely pointed out that unlike the joker he does have reasoning in most cases of his violence and those cases most of the time our for the betterment of atlantis.

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#39 Posted by Heatforce (5698 posts) - - Show Bio

So batman is a complicated character? That's the summary of the complaint.

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#40 Edited by kyrees (13420 posts) - - Show Bio

@christphervang said:

@lil_remains: @lil_remains: If i can remember correctly goku didn't know that the opposing universes would get erased he only found out after the rules and such was set.

you forgot buu. he didn't stop him and let the new generation do that stuff despite having no experience in saving the world. earth and its inhabitants gone kaput afterwards.

goku prioritizes fighting than saving people that he didn't think such actions can be quite dangerous. i mean he fought golden freeza and had to learn the hard way the second time around on prioritizing fights over saving people.

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#41 Posted by ITouchedTheBoat (3258 posts) - - Show Bio

the way people get mad at heroes for not killing, you'd think real life people were actually dying.

It's all fake, you said it yourself, if they killed the villain they'd lose sales, so because of this you're hatred for a fictional character grew more?

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#42 Posted by King_Krown (1172 posts) - - Show Bio

While I prefer some do,every hero doesn't need to kill. That said,the excuse Batman gave in Under The Red Hood was lame. He could have just said "That's not my call" and I would have accepted it.

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#43 Posted by deactivated-5bb0736b08da3 (15 posts) - - Show Bio

Instead of giving views about how a hero should be why not go out help a few people and be a hero to them rather than criticizing a comic character?

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#44 Edited by kyrees (13420 posts) - - Show Bio

@blades24 said:

Instead of giving views about how a hero should be why not go out help a few people and be a hero to them rather than criticizing a comic character?

if you want to help people, you do it and not deflect issues that can be tackled in a comic forum.

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#45 Posted by GermanX (1066 posts) - - Show Bio

I just watched batman under the red hood and yes ik im a few years late but watching this just deepened my hate for batman. At the end he basically admits that if he kills the joker he wouldn't be able to stop himself from killing everyone (villain) else. All this shows is that batman is a character is very weak willed.

Even before the movie i still had this annoyance when it came to heroes not killing their villains because it made absolutely no sense. The there's that argument that people bring up that if a hero kills a villain it in turn makes them a murderer making the percentage of murders stay the same but wouldn't that be a good thing. The reason being is that unlike a villain a hero knows there bound they're able to stop themselves and anything they do is for the betterment of others thus stopping them from going down the villainous path.

People also seem to believe that if your a murdered your automatically a villain which is a rather weird perspective to have. With that belief people in the armed forces are villains, people who kill as self defence are villains and if someone kills someone that has killed thousand that makes the killer a villain. That way of thinking is just false in so many way possible.

With what i wrote i don't even think any dc and marvel hero is a good hero. Imo the ideal hero would be goku and even i would put dr.halsey as a hero. A hero isn't someone that dresses up and saves people a hero is someone who can rationally outweigh the odds.

Also the only reason why heroes don't kill villains is because of money if there was no more villains then there wouldn't be a way to write compelling comics so yea business could be the reason why.

I can't make you change your mind, but my feel on this issue is that its just a story. Batman's life is just a story, you do not have to take it seriously.

The writer's intention was that: "Yes, I want to portray Batman as a flawed man with the right heart"

Batman's flaws was the point you mention about heroes not killing their villains. This is actually what lead many Batman fans to like about their beloved character - He is only human and humans have flaws. His flaws about his own moral code can be seen exposed by Jason Todd, such complexity is what fans liked..

Is he a terrible hero? Depends on what you mean by "terrible hero". As I mentioned, many Batman fans liked their hero flawed and vulnerable.

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#46 Edited by deactivated-5bb0736b08da3 (15 posts) - - Show Bio

@kyrees: Dude Batman already gets a lot of threads about how he is terrible hero for not killing its nothing new and also gets countless other hate threads. It gets really annoying that instead of criticizing a comic hero all the time maybe get a life and maybe do something else?

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#47 Posted by kyrees (13420 posts) - - Show Bio

@blades24 said:

@kyrees: Dude Batman already gets a lot of threads about how he is terrible hero for not killing its nothing new and countless other hate threads. It gets really annoying that instead of criticizing a comic hero all the time maybe get a life and maybe do something else?

it's a comic book character and any discussion to him is within the comic context in a comic forum. requesting people to not do any comic related things in a comic forum is counter intuitive. you might as well request people to not talk about bbq in a bbq forum

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#48 Posted by GermanX (1066 posts) - - Show Bio

@blades24 said:

@kyrees: Dude Batman already gets a lot of threads about how he is terrible hero for not killing its nothing new and also gets countless other hate threads. It gets really annoying that instead of criticizing a comic hero all the time maybe get a life and maybe do something else?

This guy's well-known for arguing against anything that seems to be the least remotely positive for Batman. Don't mind him, just continue to argue objectively.

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#49 Edited by kyrees (13420 posts) - - Show Bio

@germanx said:
@blades24 said:

@kyrees: Dude Batman already gets a lot of threads about how he is terrible hero for not killing its nothing new and also gets countless other hate threads. It gets really annoying that instead of criticizing a comic hero all the time maybe get a life and maybe do something else?

This guy's well-known for arguing against anything that seems to be the least remotely positive for Batman. Don't mind him, just continue to argue objectively.

and you're the guy who assume batman can pull off a miracle win against a high level character.

if you haven't noticed, i'm only against certain points on batman and people have multiple arguments for pro and anti. be more objective than that.

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#50 Posted by deactivated-5bb0736b08da3 (15 posts) - - Show Bio

@kyrees: I didn't say anything like "Why does earth revolve around the sun?"

I said to basically stop making this threads because it gets annoying but obviously you are not very bright so I will quit explaining it to you.