Are Gol D Roger and Prime Whitebeard overrated ?

why ask a question when you already seem to have an answer in mind?

@saboyaba: want to know others opinions. If they disagree i won't argue in thread

They’re slightly overrated. Blame it on shounen tropes

Should been in gen discussion but interesting thread

Yes they are Oda even mention multiple times Roger had rivals and he needed help defeating rocks crew but for some odd reason everyone thinks he and prime Whitebeard could just stomp Yonko which just isn’t true.

I’d say Kaido was about 85% the strength of Roger and Prime Whitebeard

Their not that much stronger than Kaido

They're slightly overrated. But they still take it against Yonko like Kaido & Big Mom.

PK characters are significantly stronger than the yonko.

Prime Rayleigh is a solid yonko level, and a power difference between him and Roger is likely as big a power difference between Luffy and Zoro.

Zoro will surpass Mihawk and Shanks and become the WSS and reach a high Yonko level around the same time Luffy finds the OP reaches the PK level. Over time the power gap between them has only been widening. So if Zoro is a high Yonko level, PK Luffy will have to be a tier above.

Even current Luffy is a solid, if not high Yonko level, and he will obviously get at least one more massive power up in his fight for OP.

The thing Roger and Garp did against Xebec and his pirates is above a mere yonko level feat.

They’re undoubtedly better than the Yonko.

Roger would beat Big Mom low difficulty

Overrated as fuck

Kaido>Roger as per canon

@mortein: Prime Ray is below Oden who is below Yonkous

But nice try

Must be paxa’s alt account

@ningenoid: Then why didn't he ? Just wondering

The roger pirates have roger himself , who is at least slightly above anybody else in the verse, plus rayleigh, who's around yonko tier. You essentially have a slightly stronger, and a slightly weaker shanks on the same crew, plus oden depending on the period, who's in the yonko class. Roger might be significantly stronger or might not be, but who really wants to deal with 2-3 yonko class characters simultaneously? Any singular current faction gets absolutely folded by them.

Is he really below Oden, and is Oden below Yonkous?

What evidence is there?

@malieke:

Does this not imply that one must be above the other Yonko and admirals to have a chance a surpassing Roger? Speaks for itself in my opinion.

They are slightly stronger than Kaido at best.

by all means the Yonko are pushing Roger and WB extreme diff

ppl seem to forget that those 2 didn't just rule like gods during their time

they still had enemies and rivals and fought the marines

Xebec, Garp, Sengoku, Shiki etc.

the ace novels even allude to Kaido being over WB in terms of pure strength and 1v1 prowess

my opinion = fax

ur opinion = creditless

@xebec: seeing as they could never actually capture him but he had to give himself up and the fact that just Roger and garp fought xebec and albeit a slight pre prime Kaido, BM and WB and came out on top… yeah a 2v4 where you win you’re above the rest.

Roger and Primebeard would solo dog-walk Kaido and Big Mom together

we have no idea what went down at God Valley, especially with how much kaido brought up betrayal in Wano.

I've been a supporter of the idea of WB turning on Rocks since the chapter came out, seeing how his views don't allign with them.

Also Kaido wasn't just slight pre-prime dawg, he was a cabin boy. Mans was still a teenager from what we've seen in his flashback.

and with the recent developments in 1061, and we know God Valley was erased off the map and from history, there was prolly some Imu/Ancient Weapon involved

Trust me, i do personally hold Roger in the top 3 of the verse all time (not including full headcanon characters like Joyboy or Imu), but i don't think the difference between him and primebeard and the yonko is that big.

hell, oda did once comment about the old gen being the generation of Roger, Whitebeard, Shiki and Big Mom (similar to the yonko system of today). And yeah, Garp or Sengoku never caught Roger, but Roger himself specifically mentioned how him and Garp almost killed each other multiple times, and Roger said "Bring Garp or Sengoku" back in the Oden flashback.

Luffy also told Koby "You should be an Admiral if you wanna face me when i'm Pirate King" back in Enies Lobby

And lastly, Kaido did have people like Shanks and Oden in his 'top 5', alongside the legends.

All in all it seems to me that the Pirate King / WSM - Yonko people are not that far apart, and i'd personally go a step further and say Admirals are in that ballpark too (now to be clear: i do NOT think admirals >= yonko. i still have most yonko over most admirals individually, but i think they're on the same tier, meaning any admiral can push any yonko to a high/extreme diff. same way i think any yonko can push PB, Garp, Roger, Xebec etc. to extreme diff or even win)

rant over

my opinion = fax

ur opinion = creditless

is that why Roger sneaked in BM's territory to take the poneglyph rubbing instead of dog-walking her 1v1 and stealing that shit?

my opinion = fax

ur opinion = creditless

They're still stronger than the Yonko, but not by as much as some people think.

Wouldn't BM pirates be willing to fight to death to protect what is theirs? They would have to kill thousands, and Roger would probably have some casualties on his side as well. Roger probably wasn't a good guy, but he didn't strike me as being so evil as to barge into someones home slaughter them and take their stuff.

i´m a noob in OP but if Gol d Roger was so above the Yonko he wouldn´t be defeated by the marines would he? in another thread people kept saying that almirants were much bellow Yonko

They are overrated by many as I’ve seen people quite literally think that Prime Roger/Whitebeard/Garp/Sengoku could defeat two or more yonko level opponents with ease which is honestly entirely laughable.

If anything Prime Roger/Primebeard are in the same tier as Kaido/Big Mom while Blackbeard, Mihawk, Shanks, (Crocodile could also be considered up there via hype/portrayal/bounty alone), Luffy and I guess Shiki are all lower tier yonkos but all are still yonkos (Buggy transcends them all of course XD). If you wanted some more yonko level characters you could consider putting Law and Kid (maybe even Boa who knows) up there at the very bottom of Yonko level as well.

I also agree that Pirate King level doesn’t exist but I do think there is a tier above Yonko and that is… the legend/myth tier which has people like Imu, OG Joyboy, Ryuma the Sword God, Rocks D. Xebec and maybeee you could try to argue Kong and Monkey D. Dragon are also up there as well if you think the two aren’t just yonko level.

I also think the Admirals Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, Fujitora and Greenbull are Yonko level as well as not only have they been portrayed as equals (if not better than) to the yonkos they are also EoS opponents while a multitude of yonkos have been already defeated.

Underrated given that that are being put below Yonko

@asgardianweapon:

Ehhh dude you asking to be spoiled on a OP thread like this lol

This isn't exactly new and I believe most of the community doesn't think otherwise. Primebeard and Roger are probably stronger than other Yonko tier characters but it's not as if the difference is astronomical and any fight between 2 Yonko tiers is always going to be high-extreme diff.

@j_normal: i mean i don't mind all that much

@plaguedocter: I'd have to disagree there

Kaido would mid diff Greenbull, Kizaru or Fujitora in a 1v1 match. It should be pretty obvious at this point

The only Admirals that rival Yonko are prime Garp, prime Sengoku, Akainu, and Aokiji.

Akainu is a EOS opponent but that doesn't mean he's stronger than Kaido or Big Mom because both Kaido and Big Mom got jumped by several characters and by the time Kaido got a fair 1v1 he wasn't fresh and had some wear and tear

@malieke: Mid Diff? No most definitely not.

Greenbull literally stomped "injured" King and Queen. Mind you these supposedly incredibly "injured" yonko commanders are both ancient zoans, had a whole week to heal, and both are supernatural creatures as Queen is a cybernetically enhanced large human with a multitude of inbuilt robotics (boasted to be better than Judges tech) while King is a lunarian who are known for their resilience and toughness as well as their insane durabilty (Kings durability rivalled Kaido's). Just to say it again Greenbull stomped and easily impaled King who has perhaps even better durability than Kaido and Queen along with everyone at Udon (Fodder for the most part but that Fodder also posed a threat to the weaker strawhats so still relevant).

Then you have Greenbull literally playing around and soloing the scabbards, Yamato, and Momo all by himself. The scabbards have shown then again and again that they are very powerful many of which scaling to Jack/Perospero or even higher as they are all able to somewhat damage Kaido. As for Yamato she of course can deal with Kaido and stall but she was manhandled by some of Greenbull's vines like the rest of them as none could escape his casual vines. With or without Momo's don't fight declaration Yamato still wouldn't have changed the fight at all as Greenbull was already shown to while playing around no sell a surprise attack from Yamato (he may have felt pain but no actual damage/blood) and already catch and restrain Yamato. As for Momo I laugh at the people who think Momo caused Greenbull to actually be damaged as we literally see him be absolutely fine afterwards (then again feels pain? but no actual damage done). In conclusion Greenbull has the Ap to hurt Kaido and in fact Greenbull while playing around did better against the Scabbards (Hurt and cut Kaido), Yamato (She stalled for awhile), and Momo (Momo's bite hurt Kaido).

As for Fujitora... honestly we just haven't seen enough as he held back tremendously in Dressrosa in his bet that Luffy would win against Doflamingo. Of course we know that Greenbull and Fujitora (and most admirals in fact) scale to each other as there is some type of test/draft that was used to vet strong people to become admirals. Fujitora has mostly just shown hardcore heldback casual feats so he is generally seen less as powerful than he is (by others) but even then he has things like where he casually lifted all of Dressrosa's rubble (Leagues better than Kaido lifting Onigshima), spam call down many meteors with ease, and has better feats of attraction/crushing than Kidd who could hinder and break Big Mom's bones.

Then for Kizaru we have him holding back making Rayleigh huff and puff to stall him as well as Kizaru casually asking if he should stop Kaido and Big Mom from meeting meaning he would intercept and fight an entire yonko crew and yonko by himself and remember he said that casually. Then you have Kizaru literally playing with Whitebeard a yonko (a weaker yonko but a yonko nonetheless) standing atop his naginata and leaving Marineford like many others with no injuries (the other admirals left with no actually relevant lasting damage/injuries as well). We then have Kizaru making Ben Beckman look like a chump as he just straight up ignores him and shoots at Luffy anyways (many think Benn Beckman is comparable to Shanks due to Beckman being called the moon to Shanks' sun). Not to mention it looks like Kizaru is Akainu's righthand man as well giving Kizaru even more credit to his name.

Not to mention many think the admirals all have awakened devil fruits (or at least Akainu/Aokiji if we look at punk hazard). as for haki we know that the OG 3 have AT LEAST emittion (Sentomaru has it and he's Kizaru's subordinate!) as they could cancel Whitebeards attack, and we could as well say they all have future sight (or at least Akainu/Aokiji) as Akainu dodged both Marco and Vista's attacks with ease and Aokiji was able to easily form around Whitebeard's naginata without harm (they both moved just like Katakuri when he dodges attacks). Of course I could go into more detail especially in concern to Akainu and his portrayal/feats etc (by proxy Aokiji as well) but I'll end it off here.

Just going to leave this here for the people who think that the pirate king is not a tier above the yonko. The implication is quite clear. This statement would make little sense if a fight between the "Pirate King" and a Yonko could go either way.

Yes

@malieke:

I agree with this part.

Rayleigh was the first mate of Roger. He holds the same position as Zoro, who has rivaled his captain Luffy since day 1.

There is no precedent that the Captain of a crew has to be massively stronger than the crew.

@enemybird: A Yonko shouldn't tremble in the presensce of another Yonko either. I think to be pirate King you'd obviously have to be top dog but you're not dog walking other yonko. Roger had rivals. Roger, Garp, Shiki, Whitebeard and Sengoku were in the same tier. Maybe Shiki would need more evidence to be there but by narritive he seems to be in that top bracket

Saying that prime Sengoku can easily beat Hybrid Kaido would be a highly dubois claim but all of the Sudden Roger can ? Lol

@bakedgb: first of all you used a strawman argument here. You created an argument on your own and debated against it. Also, keep in mind that the supernova are technically Luffy’s rivals and yet… he completely obliterates all of them. Only one person could fight equally with Roger as PK. Depending on the situation, we’ve seen Big Mom and now Luffy taken out easily by someone attacking the ship. Nobody said the pirate king was untouchable, only that the implication is that they are tier above.

@enemybird: why bring up Supernova ? They're fodder

Pirate King is not a tier above the Yonko, pirate king is just the strongest. Roger was stronger than his rivals but by a miniscule amount. They could still give him a hard fight, which is why Garp and Roger almost killed eachother multiple times and Whitebeard was relatively equal with Roger

Is this supposed to disprove my point or you just felt like replying?

Somewhat overrated by definitely stronger than the current roster bar kaido maybe. Prime white beard was considered the strongest pirate alongside kaido after Roger died

@enemybird: Chapter 433 post enies lobby arc.. Luffy and Coby both insinuate that in the future Coby as an admiral would be able to combat Luffy as the Pirate King. And Big Mom is said to be as a child if she were raised by the Navy to be become an Admiral and just maybe a Fleet Admiral. So Admirals = Pirate King = Yonko as they are all comparible.

Not to mention as others have said Roger snuck into Big Mom’s territory to take her poneglyph choosing to not fight her… if Roger as the pirate king is a whole tier above a yonko then why wouldn’t he just walk up to her defeat her and take her poneglyph… simply put Roger saw her as a threat and choose the easier option.

And my gosh why do people think that Big Mom is the weakest Yonko it makes no sense. Oldbeard with his meds can causally clash with Shanks and split the sky. Kid/Killer fought both Shanks and Kaido yet calls Kaido the strongest pirate. Kaido is said to be stronger than Whitebeard in the Ace novels and Kaido even has a better title than Whitebeard. Yet Big Mom without any of her homies (besides her sword), not becoming Bigger Mom, not healing, not using any of her souls powers or much of anything can clash with base Kaido for three days straight. Not to mention she had to be ringed out by Law and Kidd who mind you made her experience the most pain in decades (something which no other Yonko including Kaido has ever made Big Mom feel). If anything Shanks is the weakest yonko (barring Buggy) as everyone else on his tier is portrayed above Shanks with the only people you can truly argue he is stronger than are Blackbeard and Mihawk. But as for Blackbeard it seems Blackbeard is absolutely fine with the thought of fighting Shanks and he even scared and scarred him aswell. Then for which of Shanks or Mihawk is stronger without going into every little thing I’ll say this Shanks is a swordsmen, Mihawk is the WSS and whenever Mihawk dueled Shanks he never lost as if he did he wouldn’t have the title (Mihawk also has a comparable bounty even though he lacks the crew, the territory, and the influence which Shanks has so portrayal wise Mihawk can be easily put above Shanks).

@plaguedocter: Depending on the situation, the Pirate King can be taken down. We know this because Garp was able to corner Roger several times. We know this because Garp was able to nearly Kill Roger several times. We know that Roger chose not to waltz into Totto land and brute force his way through Big Mom's entire crew/territory. We know that WB in his prime preferred not to do the same avoiding loses from Kaido's army to get vengeance for Oden. Nobody is suggesting the pirate king is unable to be defeated regardless of the circumstances. That's not what it means to be a tier above.

We know that characters continue to hold up the title of pirate king as something above all the yonko in terms of power. Big Mom needed the giant alliance to gain "immense power" to make herself king of pirates. Apparently, Roger was simply more powerful than the other Yonko on his own. We don’t know how wide the gap is between Roger WB and the rest. We only know that at the time Roger was king, only one person could fight him 1v1. It’s pretty clear to me that to be considered pirate king, you must be more powerful than existing Yonko. That means PK is a tier above.

@enemybird: Big Mom wanting an army of giants doesn't mean she can't become an the Pirate King all it means is that she would have become one sooner.

Also Admirals = Pirate King = Yonko (Though some are a bit stronger and some are weaker). As both Luffy and Coby insinuate that an admiral can fight on par with the Pirate King just like before where Garp (who had multiple chances to become an admiral) and Sengoku (Who was an Admiral and formerly a fleet admiral) were both insinuated to be able to fight him by Roger. Then there's Tsuru who along with Garp and Sengoku were portrayed all as equals then Kong the commander-in-chief (who was the Fleet Admiral before Sengoku) there are plenty of people at Roger's level ('Yonko level") and some people even stronger than him.

EDIT: Hmmm still don't understand why my formatting gets so utterly messed up... any tips to fix or make the pictures smaller so my post isn't so incredibly long.

No, and if you honestly think that, then I don't know what to tell you.

@plaguedocter:

Big Mom wanting an army of giants doesn't mean she can't become an the Pirate King all it means is that she would have become one sooner.

This was a weak response. The reason Big Mom is not pirate king is because she lacks to the power to "crush" the other yonko. The giant alliance would give her power that she currently lacks. This obviously implies that the title of Pirate King is obtained by being more "powerful" than the other yonko (generally speaking). Roger had this power, hence his title. It is backed up by his resume and from what little we have seen. This power does not mean Roger could not be taken down regardless, It means that he is powerful enough to be pirate king which is implied to be above the yonko.

Also Admirals = Pirate King = Yonko (Though some are a bit stronger and some are weaker).

No. It's also deceptive to use the most powerful marine to ever exist (Garp) and most powerful Yonko to ever exist (WB) as examples of why all titles (Yonko, Admirals, Pirate King) are on the same tier when in reality, these characters are the exception, not the rule when it comes to their respective titles. Even then, only one person can actually fight Roger to a stalemate as pirate king. Thus only one person is on Roger's level as far as 1v1 fighting is concerned. Kaido has fought Roger as he was mentioned as one of the people capable of fighting him. Kaido has fought but is clearly not on the same level as Roger or prime WB.

As both Luffy and Coby insinuate that an admiral can fight on par with the Pirate King

No. This is not what is happening in the scan you posted. Luffy is continuing to encourage Coby to pursue his dream to become an admiral. This does not imply he will equally fight with Luffy at some point. Fight him at some point? Yes - I can see that. But its a stretch to assume Luffy meant equally.

just like before where Garp (who had multiple chances to become an admiral) and Sengoku (Who was an Admiral and formerly a fleet admiral) were both insinuated to be able to fight him by Roger. Then there's Tsuru who along with Garp and Sengoku were portrayed all as equals then Kong the commander-in-chief (who was the Fleet Admiral before Sengoku) there are plenty of people at Roger's level ('Yonko level") and some people even stronger than him.

The act of fighting someone does not make you equal to them. We just saw Law and Kidd take down Big Mom, a character that was clearly superior to them as individuals. We dont know the situation surrounding Roger's encounters with Garp but anything could have happened. Clearly, Roger can be taken down. Any character can depending on the situation. This is not dragon ball z. There are a number of characters that could possibly one shot Roger with their hax. But these situations do not make Roger any less qualified to be pirate King which is again, implied to be above the yonko/tier.

Clown above ^^

Anyway, they are above Kaido and Big meme.