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#1 Edited by katanalauncher (2655 posts) - - Show Bio

At this point you can't really just call Maker/Ultimate Reed just a Reed from alternate earth, especially after secret wars he will be on earth 616.

His situation is kind of similar to powergirl/supergirl thing. It's also hard to track his appearances and such.

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#2 Edited by pikahyper (17007 posts) - - Show Bio

@katanalauncher: he's still an alternate and alternates don't get their own page without significant differences.

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#3 Posted by Stahlflamme (4230 posts) - - Show Bio

Different Identity, allegiance, history, age, relationship, powerset I think, appeared in more comics than some main universe characters. I do think there are some significant differences. Making alternate reality versions just entrys in main universe articles feels insufficient once the characters are not just part of elseworld tales or one-time characters from a storyline, but approach a history that in length and significance is similiar to that of main universe heroes.

In the long run this should definetly be considered for Maker, who may very well be the only Reed Richards that will have significant history in the next few years, and possibly the O5 X-men. Like it is for Kang and Immortus or Supergirl and Powergirl.

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#4 Posted by fesak (8618 posts) - - Show Bio

He's a good candidate for having a separate page since he is rather different and will soon cross over to the main universe and supposedly be a major villain.

The O5 though are supposed to be from Earth-616 already, even though time travel doesn't work like that in marvel, so no separate pages for them.

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#5 Edited by NetSpiker (508 posts) - - Show Bio

Can we please get guidelines for when an alternate version can get a separate page? I don't want to have to ask each time if I can make a page for Rama-Tut or the mirror universe version of Spock or someone else.

Here's a list of alternate versions that already have pages:

Kal-L

Kingdom Come Superman

Superboy-Prime

Kingdom Come Batman

Gaslight Batman

Red Rain Batman

Dick Grayson (Earth-2)

Timothy Drake (Future's End)

Power Girl

Power Ring

Superwoman

Immortus

Iron Lad

Iron Boy

Maestro

The Brute

Dark Beast

Zeus

Hercules

Neptune

Ares

Thor

Odin

Loki

Frankenstein

Frankenstein

Dracula

Lucifer

Lucifer

Lucifer Morningstar

Evil Ryu

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#6 Posted by fesak (8618 posts) - - Show Bio

We've been asking staff for some clear guidelines on that for almost 10 years now. At the beginning there were to be shared pages for everyone named f.ex Spider-Man, so Miguel and Miles would have to share the page. Over time we managed to change that, but theres still the mentality of one page per character.

Anyway the rule seems to be that a character alt can get a separate page if they're different enough, have lots of appearances and interact with the main reality. Now and then a staff member wil make a page that doesn't fill these criteria, whereby users think me too and make some more dupes. My cv time has been greatly reduced so i can't catch all duplicates, so we get more and more of them.

Some of those pages are redundant though and should be merged. In some cases, like marvels Neptune and Pluto seem to be an amalgamation of the greek and roman counterpart, so i don't know which one to merge with. Chaos comics Lucifer seems to be Satan and not Lucifer, so unsure on that one too.

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#7 Posted by NetSpiker (508 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: But aren't you a staff member, fesak? Couldn't you just make a rule about this?

My personal opinion is that an alternate version should only get a separate page if he has a different Real Name or a different Super Name or a different gender or a different race. No other reasons.

An alternate version should be different enough that when the character appears in a movie or on TV, we know which version to credit. For example, if there is a new version of Superman, do we credit an appearance for Superman or Kal-L? The two are so similar that it can be hard to figure out which one the new version is most similar to.

If we go by the "lots of appearances" + "interact with the main reality" criteria, then the pre-Flashpoint Superman and the New 52 Superman need to have separate pages, and I don't think any of us want that.

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#8 Posted by fesak (8618 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a mod and our job is to keep the rules set by cv staff even if we don't always agree with them. I don't really think there's need for more than one Superman page for example, but if staff wants it then that's that. It is frustrating to not have clearly defined criteria on who qualifies for separate pages though.

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#9 Posted by NetSpiker (508 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: So which staff members make the rules?

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#10 Edited by Teerack (10671 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering the nature of the Ultimate Universe and how it ended up getting dumped into the main continuity I think all the Ultimate characters should have their own pages now.

It's just a very unsmart and misleading idea to dump them together do to some made up unofficial rule that someone wants to hold onto for literally no reason. I'm not really sure if the wiki staff here pretends to have all these rules randomly when ever it's convenient for them even when they don't always follow them or really have nothing backing it up. The sad through everyone on this site knows is that there are just a hand full of wiki mods that have an opinion on something and just kinda abuse their power to lower the quality of the wiki to fit their sudden preference. It wouldn't surprised me If I got banned for making this honest civil not rule breaking post for point out the thing everyone has been aware of like actually a decade. Not to point any figures but somebody in this thread has been most obvious about this and I can't recall a time they were ever able to make a real point that didn't come down to "I dun wanna" :P

I'd also say the Time Displayed X-Men should get their own pages since they are different people with different lives, relationships, powers, and experiences. I say that because they are MAIN marvel cast characters in the same continuity and it just seemed kinda silly to clump their pages together.

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#11 Posted by NetSpiker (508 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't like that idea at all. If I want to know which issues Cyclops appeared in, then I should be able to get a list of all the issues that Cyclops appeared in. Not some specific version of Cyclops. Just Cyclops.

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#12 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack: No.

The pages aren't for universe-specific characters, which is why the Ultimate Universe coming to 616 has no bearing whatsoever on our character pages. Not every rule is going to be 100% perfect, but this one has worked for so long that a far more compelling argument than yours is required to change how we currently do things.

And, to appease your disdain for "made up unofficial rules" (that have existed for a while), I added the following in the Troubleshooting thread: "Please note that alternate versions of characters do not get their own pages. Any information about an alternate version of a character should be placed in a subsection on the main version's page. This said, there are times when an alternate has earned the right to have its own page. If you think that an alternate version has earned such right then post your reasons why in the Editing & Tools Forum for community and mod feedback before creating a new page."

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#13 Edited by NetSpiker (508 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp: Can you explain why the alternate versions that already have a page have "earned that right"? That way I'll know what to look for in the future.

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#14 Edited by jloneblackheart (7609 posts) - - Show Bio

This has been a confusing rule since the beginning. Typically, whatever character is deemed different enough (usually in discussion in the forum), they get a separate page. Choosing what criteria can be difficult.

I've been around a long time and generally have a good sense as to what is acceptable, as do the other wiki mods. It isn't our rule and without a proper guideline given to us, we do what we can to enforce it. We wiki mods are few and generally stick around a long time. But that doesn't mean with the right criteria, a new page shouldn't be considered. Let's attempt to establish this criteria.

Determining Factors

Not all need be included but the more check marks you get, the more reasonably the character would deserve a separate page.

  • Drastic difference in origin and/or powers
  • Drastic difference in character identity, motivation or alter-ego
  • Often interacts with main universe counterpart
  • Has impersonated or taken the place of main universe counterpart for extended periods
  • Played a key role in major events or events that alter or effect the main continuity universe
  • Resides in the main continuity universe
  • Becomes a major hero or villain in the main continuity universe
  • Has numerous or extensive appearances
  • Has their own title

There may be some that may have a lot of these criteria but don't really need a separate page and there may be some that only meet a couple that do. It's a very complicated selection which is why it's gone so long unresolved. We just don't want 16 pages for the same character because they are from an alternate universe.

Keep in mind, some pages on the site should be merged, which can be discussed in the forums as well. The wiki is a community effort.

Obviously, staff can override any of us and what they say goes. If they want an alt page that doesn't meet these criteria, they get one. If they want one to go away, it does.

If any one has anything they would like to add, let's do this.

@teerack You're rant and accusations are neither civil nor informed.

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#15 Edited by Teerack (10671 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp said:

@teerack: No.

The pages aren't for universe-specific characters, which is why the Ultimate Universe coming to 616 has no bearing whatsoever on our character pages. Not every rule is going to be 100% perfect, but this one has worked for so long that a far more compelling argument than yours is required to change how we currently do things.

And, to appease your disdain for "made up unofficial rules" (that have existed for a while), I added the following in the Troubleshooting thread: "Please note that alternate versions of characters do not get their own pages. Any information about an alternate version of a character should be placed in a subsection on the main version's page. This said, there are times when an alternate has earned the right to have its own page. If you think that an alternate version has earned such right then post your reasons why in the Editing & Tools Forum for community and mod feedback before creating a new page."

Hahaha. Come on man don't start your post off with a simple no and then go on to just do literally exactly what I just said in the same post. "This said, there are times when an alternate has earned the right to have its own page." You can't play both sides here man it just doesn't work. We aren't having a conversion in person where you can just say things and people won't notice you pulling one over on them, it's in text and it's like actually right there in front of us. There are no real rules you just some times let things happen if you like them and you don't if you do like them just solely based on your own whim. Literally no one on this bored is dumb enough to buy this... like seriously just own up to something you're clearly CLEARLY doing. God you're like a global warming denier or something. Can you link some other times where these characters "earned their right?" I kinda doubt it since you just said that trying to act like there was some kinda rule that you're now suddenly enforcing when you clearly pulled it out of thin air. But hey maybe I'm the idiot and you'll actually link me all these examples proving me wrong.

There are some people who are wiki mods here who just really need to be only allowed to add issues to the site and nothing else cause that's the only positive thing they do when the rest of their actions is mostly getting in the way and limiting the usefulness of this site. I would say that's the trust but I guess we can just call it "my opinion" so no one overreacts.

Feel free to not respond or give me another validating replay I really don't care to be honest, but boy did seeing your responds before bed put me in a happy amused mood. :D Also I think this thread is about Maker and there are probably some posts in here better worth your time responding to even though I kinda doubt you'll do the right thing here regardless. /shrug

@jloneblackheart said:

@teerack You're rant and accusations are neither civil nor informed.

There is nothing uncivil about just sating things I've witnessed here many times over the years even if it's something that might make someone upset.

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#16 Edited by fesak (8618 posts) - - Show Bio

They didn't bring over that many Ultimates characters, only a couple i can think of. Miles and his supporting cast already have pages. Maker should probably get his own page now.

As for the O5 X-men, even though it makes absolutely no sense they keep making a point of this being the original 616 X-men, so it wouldn't make much sense in having separate pages for them.

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#17 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@netspiker said:

@renchamp: Can you explain why the alternate versions that already have a page have "earned that right"? That way I'll know what to look for in the future.

In line with jlone's guidelines, X-Man is a prime example. He is technically Cable's alternate from the AoA, but he is clearly different enough to warrant his own page.

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#18 Edited by NetSpiker (508 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart:Thanks for posting the list of Determining Factors. Unfortunately, it's too vague to be useful, since we don't know exactly how many of these criteria an alternate version has to meet and we also don't know what qualifies as a "drastic difference" or how many appearances are needed to qualify as "numerous or extensive appearances".

I once tried to make a page for the Atticus Kent version of Superman. I thought he was different enough, since he wore a completely different uniform, lived during the American Civil War and had a different name, but the page was rejected.

There are a lot fewer alternate version pages now than there were 3 years ago. Back then, every Greek god had one page for the DC version, one page for the Marvel version and one page for the "Public Domain" version. Now the DC versions have disappeared, which I'm very happy about. Anyone know why the same hasn't happened with the Marvel versions?

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#19 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@netspiker: Factors are simply things to take into consideration. There are no boxes to check to get an alternate character its own page. Such characters should be discussed in this forum.

And the Marvel characters have been deemed to be different enough from the public domain gods to have their own page.

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#20 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack: X-Man has "earned" the right to have his own page.

And your arguments might have more weight if you actively edited the wiki. How can we take seriously the grumblings of someone that doesn't even contribute to the wiki on a regular basis? You are certainly welcome to have an opinion as someone that reads the wiki, but don't get so up-in-arms when your suggestion is refuted when it comes to how our site has always done things. This is not to say that your suggestions are worthless just because you don't have live edits yet, but you surely haven't proven that you have the wiki's best interests at heart when you have contributed so little.

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#21 Edited by Teerack (10671 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp: I've contributed making a few pages, adding a good amount of pictures, adding and correcting wiki things. Just the other week I was looking through and trying to find all the missing Pokemon from the wiki. I'm not a wiki mod and just kinda fix things as I see them. Before Secret Wars happened I started to try and take a big role on doing and keeping up on all the inhuman stuff but I just kinda stopped after getting banned by a wiki mod for asking the staff how their day was, and then when i came back they refused to allow a star wars page to be made after pretty much everyone in the community was in support of it and instead chose to do nothing and continue to do nothing about the star wars related things to this day, and still pretty much the whole community is in support of something the mods wont do for zero reason. It's actually insane that there is no Star Wars forum on this site. Like just considering what this site is and how big it is and the fact there is no star wars forum.. you know why there isn't one? The person who is the boss about star wars wiki stuff has taken the entire subject hostage and wont add a star wars concept page without providing any reason why Star Trek and other things have pages like it but not star wars so people can't have a star wars forums for NO REASON. They just wanted to be the one to do the star wars stuff yet its been around 18 months and they still haven't done anything. So ya I've tried to add more but the way you guys run this place like a little boys club makes it a bit hard to.

Who is talking about X-Man? I'm not and haven't so I guess you're just confused? Unless you think just saying someone earned a page is the same as proving you didn't just pull the idea of alternate version of characters "earning" their pages out of thin air. Is that seriously what you're doing? I can't understand why else you'd say that but I find that to be just a little be sad honestly.

And no my "argument" isn't weak. In fact it's not even an argument! It's me calling you guys on doing something you always do, and then you in your very first response to me manged to do it and prove it in record time. So it's not an argument it's just a statement you went on to support through your own actions.

The route you're trying to go down with this whole "oh we can't take you serious!" and "you haven't proven you got the wiki's best interest in heart!" I'm sorry but that that is just really stupid. Not saying you're stupid but that whole line of thought is very stupid. Why don't you just go on and say "it's not convenient for us to take you seriously so we wont" cause that is all you're really saying when you get down to it. Unless you actually expect people to believe I'm some kind of diabolical sinister force bent on ruining the wiki hahaha. Sorry, but you haven't proved you have the wiki's best interest in heart to me, yet I'll continue to take you seriously. You don't or can't do the same then that's on you it doesn't take away from anything I've said in the slightest.

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#22 Posted by jloneblackheart (7609 posts) - - Show Bio

@netspiker: While it's probably the best you're going to get to a proper guideline, "too vague to be useful" seems awfully harsh.

It's a vague rule. It's not something that can be easily defined. I did my best.

Atticus Kent sounds like he should have his own page to me. I'd open discussion about it. Maybe we should make a thread for the discussion 'Alternate Universe Character Pages' or something along that line.

I think Marvel has made a mythology of their own where DC is more generic and falls in line with their public domain counterpart. I don't read DC so I can't really confirm.

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#23 Posted by NetSpiker (508 posts) - - Show Bio
@renchamp said:

And the Marvel characters have been deemed to be different enough from the public domain gods to have their own page.

The only difference between Marvel's Zeus and other versions of Zeus is that Marvel's Zeus is ginger. Marvel's Dracula has even less difference with the public domain version, since the events of the Dracula novel actually happened in the Marvel Universe. Now that I think about it, the events of the Iliad also happened in the Marvel Universe.

@jloneblackheart: I do appreciate you posting the guidelines and I'm sorry if I offended you. I was hoping for a set of rules that would eliminate the need for discussion threads which is why I said they were too vague. I still hope we'll have something more concrete in the future.

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#24 Edited by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack: Okay. Neat. I've got nothing else to add.

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#25 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@netspiker said:

@renchamp said:

And the Marvel characters have been deemed to be different enough from the public domain gods to have their own page.

The only difference between Marvel's Zeus and other versions of Zeus is that Marvel's Zeus is ginger. Marvel's Dracula has even less difference with the public domain version, since the events of the Dracula novel actually happened in the Marvel Universe. Now that I think about it, the events of the Iliad also happened in the Marvel Universe.

I don't read comics with those characters so I haven't been involved in the decision. I am just relating what has been said in the past by other mods far more in-the-know than myself.

@jloneblackheart: I think a dedicated thread would be great, as this issue does come up every so often and it would be good to have a place to discuss these things so that the "vague" rules/factors are not criticized as being drawn out of "thin air" by us lazy mods. Also, we could chronicle in the OP (via edits) what has already been decided so that it saves time in the future.

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#26 Posted by fesak (8618 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the main reason marvel Dracula and Zeus has separate pages still is that they both have a lot of appearances to move over and it will take quite a while to merge them, so no one has done it yet, but you're right in that they should be merged.

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#27 Edited by NetSpiker (508 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: Does that mean I have permission to do it?

With regards to the Alternate Universe Character Pages thread idea, should propose one character at a time, or can I list every alternate version that I feel should have its own page?

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#28 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@netspiker: Do one thread. We can always edit the OP to list what characters have been decided upon.

I have already started merging the Dracula pages.

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#29 Posted by NetSpiker (508 posts) - - Show Bio

Unfortunately, I won't be able to participate in Comic Vine anymore. I have depression and I discovered yesterday that editing wikis makes me feel much worse for some reason. I regret that I won't be able to create pages for Rama-Tut, Byron Wyatt, Bruno Vanekow, Bruce of Waynesmoor, Atticus Kent, Peter Parquagh and many other alternate versions that I planned to bring into the discussion.

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#30 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp Are we still on the borderline with having an ultimate Reed Richards page being added or has it already been decided that he can be added to the wiki, seeing as he meets some of the guidelines Jlone posted a while back.

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#31 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@pikahyper Seeing as Renchamp never replied, has your thoughts changed on this topic?

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#32 Posted by pikahyper (17007 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by jloneblackheart (7609 posts) - - Show Bio

A PM has motivated me to make a thread for further discussion of other characters. It can be found here.

On topic, I think Maker should be strongly considered for his own page.