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#1 Posted by jloneblackheart (7609 posts) - - Show Bio

There is often much discussion regarding which alternate universe/timeline characters deserve their own pages within the Comic Vine wiki and which deserve only a section within the main continuity character's wiki page.

To be honest, this is a hard thing to gauge and is a case-by-case basis. This thread will serve as a community discussion to determine if indeed an alternate universe character is unique and impactful enough to warrant their own page.

Determining Factors

Not all need be included but the more check marks you get, the more reasonably the character would deserve a separate page.

  • Drastic difference in origin and/or powers
  • Drastic difference in character identity, motivation or alter-ego
  • Often interacts with main universe counterpart
  • Has impersonated or taken the place of main universe counterpart for extended periods
  • Played a key role in major events or events that alter or effect the main continuity universe
  • Resides in the main continuity universe
  • Becomes a major hero or villain in the main continuity universe
  • Has numerous or extensive appearances
  • Has their own title

There may be some that may have a lot of these criteria but don't really need a separate page and there may be some that only meet a couple that do. It's a very complicated selection which is why it's gone so long unresolved. We just don't want 16 pages for the same character because they are from an alternate universe.

Keep in mind, some pages already added on the site should be merged, which can be discussed in the forums as well. The wiki is a community effort.

Obviously, staff can override any of us and what they say goes. If they want an alt page that doesn't meet these criteria, they get one. If they want one to go away, it does.

If any one has anything they would like to add, let's do this.

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#2 Posted by jloneblackheart (7609 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by comicfox87 (15 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks. Then I would like to start off the discussion about Future Trunks, a character from Dragon Ball in an alternate timeline vs its main universe counterpart, Chibi Trunks. I will go through each of the bullet points stated above.

  • Drastic difference in origin and/or powers
    • Future Trunks has differences in powers from Chibi Trunks. Chibi Trunks cannot reach SSJ2 and does have skills with a sword. Future Trunks does not know the Fusion Dance.
  • Drastic difference in character identity, motivation or alter-ego
    • Chibi Trunks was born and raised in a time when all his family members and friends were alive. Future Trunks only had his mother and friend, Gohan, who was killed. Chibi Trunks hence is more relaxed and does not live in constant fear everyday. While Future Trunks has fought the Androids, then Cell, then Dabura, and now Black. Chibi Trunks has never fought the Androids or Cell. He fought Buu which Future Trunks has never seen.
  • Often interacts with main universe counterpart
    • Future Trunks has been shown to be interacting with Chibi Trunks several times. In the latest chapter 16, Future Trunks talks to Chibi Trunks directly.
  • Played a key role in major events or events that alter or effect the main continuity universe
    • Future Trunks used a time machine to travel back in time. This significantly altered the continuity of the main universe. This allowed the Z Fighters to train themselves and prepare for the Androids and Cell. It also prevented the death of Goku from a heart virus.
  • Resides in the main continuity universe
    • Future Trunks currently resides in the main universe and fights along with the other characters.
  • Has numerous or extensive appearances
    • Future Trunks has had numerous appearances in the current story - Dragon Ball Super.
  • Has their own title
    • In Japan, Future Trunks is referred to as "Mirai Trunks" while its main universe counterpart who is only a kid, is called "Chibi Trunks".

In addition, the author of Dragon Ball, Akira Toriyama, has made physical distinctions now in the current Dragon Ball Super distinguishing them by the color of hair - Future Trunks with blue hair and Chibi Trunks with purple. These characters differ temporally and physically. Anyone who is a DB fan knows that these characters are different. Adding separate pages to the comicvine wiki hence would be reasonable and logical. You are not adding several different versions of the same character, only one. I submitted a request for a Future Trunks page long ago and it was rejected. Please re-consider.

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#4 Posted by BlueEcho (1013 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart: I can't really think of many characters that would make the cut. Do you have some examples?

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#5 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@blueecho: A good example would be Mr. Fantastic from the ultimate universe. He's now known as Maker and is now a villain with a new power set. He's also crossed over into the 616 universe if I'm correct and took a major part In the recent Secret Wars event. I think that he technically had his own comic back when the Ultimate F4 was ongoing

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#6 Posted by BlueEcho (1013 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloudguy: Oh gotcha, it seems like this list would be pretty small though.

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#7 Edited by jloneblackheart (7609 posts) - - Show Bio

@blueecho: I never got a notification for this.

Here's some examples: Kal-el, Superboy Prime, Power Girl, Iron Boy, and Dark Beast

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#8 Posted by jloneblackheart (7609 posts) - - Show Bio

I think a future Trunks page would certainly make things more clear regarding the wiki.

My main issue with it is since the requesting user isn't a wiki editor, it would be me that has to do the incredible amount of work and research to split the pages and re-associate all the manga and anime appearances.

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#9 Posted by BlueEcho (1013 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart: Ah OK gotcha, I kind of remember this from the DC comic series from the 1980s called Who's Who. They sometimes went to the trouble to distinguish between Earth 1 and Earth 2 versions, though sometimes not.

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#10 Posted by BlueEcho (1013 posts) - - Show Bio

Incidentally I just spent 50 minutes beefing up the Who's Who volume page.

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#11 Posted by jloneblackheart (7609 posts) - - Show Bio

@blueecho: nothing like doing a project you didn't expect to do in place of a project you had planned to do lol

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#12 Posted by BlueEcho (1013 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart: True, I don't plan many projects though. I just do things as I see them.

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#13 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicfox87: Do you know any Dragon Ball fans to call in and weigh in on your suggestion?

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#14 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp: I hope that I'm not butting in but wouldn't the battle thread be a good place to ask? Seeing as I've see I f a coupe of good DBZ threads posted every now and again?

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#15 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloudguy: That's why I asked if they new anybody to pull in. We can't post this question in the Battles forum simply because it doesn't belong. But we can tag users and ask for their thoughts. If you know of any knowledgable users then go ahead and tag them so we can get an objective view of the request.

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#16 Posted by comicfox87 (15 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp said:

@comicfox87: Do you know any Dragon Ball fans to call in and weigh in on your suggestion?

Not on comicvine. There are many on kanzenshuu forums, the place for legit info on anything DB related. You can find information on the wikia as well. I can provide chapters in the manga also to support. I've actually already referenced chapters in my above post.

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#17 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicfox87: In order for this thread to work, we need actual discussion on the merits of the creation of the alt page. We also need someone willing to create the page and update the appearances.

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#18 Posted by comicfox87 (15 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp: I can create the page and write the info. I've done so in the past and my submission got rejected. I've submitted several character additions to comicvine already for Dragon Ball. I would think the merits would be based off the evidence and proof from manga chapters that show the distinction between characters.

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#19 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp I can add the TV show appearances if they are needed in regards to DBZ as I was working on that as a past project but ended up stopping, so i wouldn't mind picking that back up.

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#20 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloudguy: @comicfox87: But we haven't had anyone discuss this yet. This thread is to discuss the need to split a character. We can't split the character until someone has shown up to agree or disagree. We aren't going to make pages for alts just because it is brought up. @jloneblackheart voiced his support, but not much more. If someone else familiar with the DB franchise can come in with a "yay" or a "nay" then we can seriously consider this.

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#21 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp: I will be honest I do think that having a Future Trunks page is a bit of a strange place to start, I think he's basically a version of him who only came from the future, although I am a bit rusty on my DBZ knowledge. Although if anyone can give a decent reason I'm willing to help out if needed. If anything I think a good place to start would be ultimate Mr. Fantastic seeing as he meets a lot of Jlone's points.

In no order:

  1. He's crossed over into the 616 universe (I think he's stuck there now)
  2. He's now a villain going by the name Maker with a new powerset and motive
  3. He took part in the 2015 Secret Wars event
  4. Has a load of appearances seeing as he was part of the Ultimate F4 comic
  5. I'm pretty sure he interacted with the 616 version pre-Secret Wars.

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#22 Edited by fesak (8618 posts) - - Show Bio

To add to this thread;

Anyone can create a new page, it's not hard. While we do many of these split/merge type of projects it can be quite time-consuming and usually takes knowledge, which we lack in some areas, Dbz for example. So what we are also looking for is someone who is prepared to separate the appearances, (removing old page from/add the new one to issues, series, etc.) so we won't end up with another empty page.

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#23 Edited by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: If needed I can do a lot of the work. I've been around the wiki for quite a while (my points prove that aswell. So I'm not fussed if anything needs to be done and the user doesn't have time/reputation to do so. Feel free to PM me if a load of pages get decided on in the background. I'll still post here I just feel like only a few will do so.

I can change the appearances/moving info aswell as I normally have plenty of time to do so.

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#24 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloudguy: Based on conversations from the other thread and this one, I think the Maker has been okayed to get his own page. If you want to tackle that task then go for it. And many thanks if you do.

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#25 Edited by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp: Thanks for the go ahead, quick question before I create him, how should he be named? Reed Richards (1610) or Maker? Should the pre-existing information be transferred to the new page?

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#26 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloudguy: As I understand it (which is very little so correct me if I am wrong), he goes by Maker. We can make Reed Richards (1610) and Ultimate Reed Richards aliases.

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#27 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp Sounds good, I'll go make the page now and transfer the pre-existing info now. Once that is done I'll start the hard work of transferring appearances.

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#28 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp I've created the page, feel free to make any changes to it. I'm going to transfer the appearances now.

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#29 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp@fesak@jloneblackheart I've created the Maker page and transferred as many appearances as I can find. I'm going to do the proper write up for him withing the next week or two.

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#30 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by fesak (8618 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloudguy

Nice work. I've moved over a couple of more appearances, and added some details.

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#33 Posted by BlueEcho (1013 posts) - - Show Bio

Where would Grimm Fairy Tales fit inside of this? Some characters like Baba Yaga I guess aren't changed that much, but some are (like Little Red Riding Hood/Britney Waters.) Just go on a case by case basis, or easier to apply a blanket rule to the entire company?

In this case anyway though based on what everyone else has said, it makes sense to go with the PD version of Baba Yaga.

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#34 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@blueecho: I'd say just make a case for each character and we can weigh the merits of each. Having a blanket rule would be a bit extreme, as we want to assume that alt pages are created as the exception.

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#35 Posted by BlueEcho (1013 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@blindfaith311: This is a thread in which you can request consideration for a page to be made for an alternate character. Read the OP to see what you need to do.

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#37 Posted by blindfaith311 (34 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp Thank you for the forum information. After reading over the alternate character criteria, I would like to make the case for the New 52 version of Superman to be added as a separate character:

Determining Factors

  • Drastic difference in origin and/or powers: While the initial "last son of Krypton" history stays similar, the development of New 52 Superman and his powers differ greatly (death of both parents, Kryptonian battle suit, Solar Flare powers and burnout, etc.) and evolve in new directions (Truth, H'el on Earth, Superdoom, etc.)
  • Drastic difference in character identity, motivation or alter-ego: The New 52 Superman gets his identity of Clark Kent outed to the public, his interest in Wonder Woman changes his motivation as her protector and equal, and his Kryptonian is treated a more of a mystery than outright birthright
  • Often interacts with main universe counterpart: The classic Superman spies on his New 52 counterpart until they interact during the latter's final days, as New 52 encourages the original version to take up his new legacy
  • Has impersonated or taken the place of main universe counterpart for extended periods: While initially believed to have been the rebooted version of Superman, New 52 Superman would eventually be revealed as a separate character
  • Played a key role in major events or events that alter or effect the main continuity universe: The New 52 was showcased as a new universe built from previous versions; thus the major events are all alterations or effects on the main universe
  • Resides in the main continuity universe: New 52 Superman was part of the universal reboot, and a main character in the revamped continuity
  • Becomes a major hero or villain in the main continuity universe: New 52 Superman is established as the primary Superman and hero of the new version of the universe
  • Has numerous or extensive appearances: New 52 Superman not only held his own two titles, but appeared regularly in Justice League, Superman/Batman, Superman/Wonder Woman, and numerous other appearances (Red Hood, Secret Six, Supergirl, etc)
  • Has their own title: New 52 Superman was the lead in both the relaunched Action Comics and Superman books
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#38 Posted by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@blindfaith311: Do you know any Superman fans that you can tag to comment on your points?

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#39 Posted by blindfaith311 (34 posts) - - Show Bio

@renchamp:

Offhand, I do not know any Viners for commentary. Much of my ideas and information comes from the DC Wikia, local comic shop discussions, and personal research into the topic.

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#40 Posted by jloneblackheart (7609 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know that staff would want the Superman page split.

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#41 Edited by Renchamp (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@blindfaith311: I'm not a DC reader, but just from what I've gleaned it sounds like New52 is just a regular alt of Superman. We'd need far more backing to seriously consider this.

That said, I dig the 311 shoutout in your username.

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#42 Posted by JamesSpiring (996 posts) - - Show Bio

A few characters to consider:

  • Gwen Stacy aka Spider-Gwen. The Earth-616 version doesn't have spider powers, the Earth-65 version does, they interact during The Clone Conspiracy.
  • The original five X-Men: Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, and Angel. The time displaced versions of them interacted with the modern X-Men a lot during the Marvel NOW! era X books, especially the Beasts and Cyclopses.
  • Superman. The current version is clearly distinct from the New 52 version.
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#43 Posted by fesak (8618 posts) - - Show Bio

A few characters to consider:

  • Gwen Stacy aka Spider-Gwen. The Earth-616 version doesn't have spider powers, the Earth-65 version does, they interact during The Clone Conspiracy.
  • The original five X-Men: Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, and Angel. The time displaced versions of them interacted with the modern X-Men a lot during the Marvel NOW! era X books, especially the Beasts and Cyclopses.
  • Superman. The current version is clearly distinct from the New 52 version.

Gwen, maybe, if there's interest.

O5: marvel claims that they are the original earth-616 X-men, even though it doesnt make sense, but we can't have separate pages for the exact same character.

I don't read Dc anymore, so i'm not very informed on current Superman. This is a separate thing from the previous one requested i take it? The problem is there are already several Superman alts, and on a casual level they seem indistinguishable. The rule is partly in place to make things less confusing from a newcomer pov, and by allowing multiple Superman alts, there's less reason to not allow other alts, which will dilute the database, and that's the other part of why they made that rule in the first place.

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#44 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak@JamesSpiring A separate page for Spider-Gwen would make sense based on the rules that have been established as she meets quite a few of them.

Examples:

  • Drastic difference in origin and/or powers

She has powers and different origin compared to her main universe counterpart which has no powers.

  • Often interacts with main universe counterpart

While not being in contact with her 616 counterpart she frequently meets up with other 616 heroes.

  • Played a key role in major events or events that alter or effect the main continuity universe

She took part in the Spider-Verse event and has appeared since then, gaining enough popularity to appear in other comics and get her own ongoing series.

Also, seeing as she's the only version of Gwen still alive, it would make sense for her to have a page of her own seeing as she's quite different compared to the 616 version.

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#45 Posted by Guru_Crack (9657 posts) - - Show Bio

This is indeed a very interesting subject and personally for me I think that Future Trunks from DBZ and Ultimate Green Goblin should most definitely be different. Also Mr. Fantastic is a damn good villain I hear in the Ultimate Comics so that is a drastic shift and should warrant there own page. Think the majority of characters from the Ultimate Universe should just be called Ultimate Green Goblin ect...

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#46 Posted by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@guru_crack Ultimate Mr. Fantastic has his own page with the name of Maker. What makes Ult Green Goblin so different to 616 Norman? I know that the only thing different is appearance, then again I don't read the Ultimate Comics. Future Trunks would be out of my jurisdiction as I know nothing about DBZ.

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#47 Posted by Guru_Crack (9657 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloudguy: I think the looks change in Ultimate Green Goblin on their own justify his own page. Like someone mentioned above Future Trunks has a different upbringing than the Trunks of that time in Dragon Ball Z. So his character is different, he grew up in an apocalyptic world whereas regular Trunks grew up regulatory and in generally more laid back. Bare for looking the same they have nothing in common.

Trunks from present day doesn't really like Gohan whereas Future Trunks loves him ect... Everything about how they interact with other characters is different.

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#48 Edited by Cloudguy (1764 posts) - - Show Bio

@guru_crack Sadly, appearance changes don't warrant a new page, if that was the case, so many alt-universe characters would have their own pages. If multiple people joined in on the character or if @pikahyper@fesak@jloneblackheart spoke in on the idea it would help. But i'm pretty sure they'd agree that different appearances don't count towards getting a new page.

I've also spoken to someone who knows a decent amount about DBZ and he said, like you did, they are quite separate in almost every aspect. So I don't see the problem with adding Future Trunks, but then again a mod has to give a go ahead. The only thing is would you personally would have to do all the work as we don't know what to change or have the time to do so.

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#49 Posted by jloneblackheart (7609 posts) - - Show Bio

@guru_crack: @cloudguy: Based on what I see, Green Goblin isn't one of the cases for this.

Trunks I can go either way on (but then again, I'm no longer a moderator so I can't make the call). It would probably clear things up much better to have separate pages, but it will be a crazy amount of work to change all the manga, magazine and anime appearances (although DBZ anime is abysmally incomplete) and move all the images. I already have a Dragon Ball related project I'm way behind on as it is and another split page I wanted to do (Buu). I could help out as support or do some minor work here and there, but I just don't have time to tackle this on my own if mods are cool with it.

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#50 Edited by Guru_Crack (9657 posts) - - Show Bio

@jloneblackheart: @cloudguy: Thanks for replying guys, well it would be a lot of work but that's why there is a community on Comic Vine and due to him being a popular character it shouldn't take to long. Also I thought Buu already had a separate page consisting Majin Buu fights evil Buu who turns into Super Buu who turns into Kid Buu.