Why can Zeno see Goku vs Jiren although he was unable to see Dyspo ?

@nemesisreloaded: Ah I missed that part.

@alextheboss: No problem, I figured you did. Maybe at some point in the next episode Zeno will say something similar about not being able to see Goku and Jiren with or without the god pad, but as of now, we're in agreement that Dyspo is DBs fastest non-god/angel character

@shenron007: hahahah. By that logic you need supersonic+ perception to see a rocket explosion. It has nothing to do with the speed of the explosion just the duration of it

@nemesisreloaded: but he got wtf blitzed by goku in Ui before it was mastered, its obvious it’s just horrible writing and plot hole.

Dyspo should be right under Ui goku and jiren though, even ssg goku reacted to normal dyspo and ssbkkx20 should be able to hang with dyspos super mode.

Goku fans are getting pretty heated I see. I don't see the debate here. The Zenos couldn't perceive Dyspo, even using the godpad; a device created by the Grand Priest himself to track the speed of the fastest fighters in the tournament. As of episode 129 of Super, they appear to have no trouble following Goku and Jiren. There's your answer. I don't see why people are so angry. Goku and Jiren are already OP asf. It's okay for them to not be the greatest at every aspect of fighting. No one is saying Dyspo is taking them in a fight, just that in the aspect of speed, he's their superior, which is fine because that's what he designed his combat style to specialize in.

@thatduderox: that is not what dragonball is about and shouldn't be okay, lol.

@skrskr:

but he got wtf blitzed by goku in Ui before it was mastered, its obvious it’s just horrible writing and plot hole.

Well, he got slung out of the way along with Toppo. He wasn't wtf blitzed. And really, that's no different to different to how Golden Frieza dealt with Super Speed Dyspo. Super Max Speed Dyspo is a different story.

Dyspo should be right under Ui goku and jiren though, even ssg goku reacted to normal dyspo and ssbkkx20 should be able to hang with dyspos super mode.

That was an issue that was pointed out about Dyspo when we first found out about his speed - his movements are too linear and are predictable. The thing to realise is that Dyspo has three speed modes: Normal, Super Speed and Super Max Speed. Dyspo doesn't use Super Max speed until he faces Golden Frieza, which means dUI Goku was not faster than SMS Dyspo, since the god pad could see one and not the other.

It honestly doesn't make any sense to say that Goku and Jiren should be faster than Dyspo. All the evidence in the arc tells us that Dyspo is the fastest fighter, even if he isn't anywhere near the strongest.

@nemesisreloaded: he got blitzed when goku rushed passed him to attack jiren, just like Toppo before the double toss.

You could make the argument that sms dyspo is right up there with imperfect UI goku in linear travel speed, but I think in combat speed he stands no chance tbh not even counting mastered UI goku.

@thatduderox: except combat doesn’t equal linear travel speed, Zeno just sees explosions and couldn’t see dyspo because he was constantly moving really fast in a linear fashion.

They even show goku standing still for us all to see but a multitude of punches and explosions are happening why he seems like he is still standing still.

I don't disagree at all that Dyspo stands zero chance against UI Goku, perfect or imperfect. I just happen to think that Jiren is Superman and Dyspo is the Flash. That Dyspo is faster than everyone (so far - the next episode could say otherwise) and I had, on the previous page showed reasons why Dyspo is much more advanced in his speed than he is in any of his other abilities, including reaction time - the most important one being that as soon as Hit knew how to deal with Dyspo's linear speed from watching Goku, Dyspo could not react to Hit's non-timeskip strikes. Since the show seems to say that Dyspo is faster than his own reactions, it doesn't mean as much if Dyspo can't react so well against dUI Goku leaping at Jiren. Its almost more important that Toppo couldn't react to him, even though Toppo seemed to be following Dyspo's fight with Hit just fine.

In the end it comes down to interpretation. I think UI Goku and Jiren are a smidge below Dyspo in terms of speed, but Dyspo is way down on power. Episode 131 could change that though so its hardly set in stone just yet.

@nemesisreloaded: your argument makes sense, I guess we just wait till the show ends to know for sure.

People need to watch that episode again. Dyspo SMS was being partially blocked by golden frieza. Not only that, but when zeno complained about not being able to see the battle with the godpad, the scene focused on the images given by the godpad, which couldn't capture neither dyspo nor frieza. Then the grand priest tells zeno to "enjoy a battle he can't follow" to which they reply "yeah, it's pretty cool like this too".

Now, which one seems more likely: both golden frieza and dyspo are faster than MUI goku and 100% jiren, or that zeno is simply enjoying the colorful explosions without having any idea of what's going on.

Seriously, the only thing they said in the episode was "goku/jiren are super super incredible".

Then we have what we can also assume to be a simple inconsistency. Muten roshi can follow the battle between goku and jiren, but couldn't follow goku vs cell. Let's keep that in mind.

@wolfus: Finally somone uses common sense here. thank you.

@purpledeadragon: Commom sense is a foreign word to many here.

@wolfus: When Golden Frieda was knocking Super Speed Dyspo around, Kai pointed out Frieza was faster than Dyspo, but Zeno didn't say anything. When Super Max Speed Dyspo was literally punching Golden Frieza all over the arena, Zeno couldn't follow it even with the god pad.

It had nothing to do with Friezas speed and everything to do with Dyspo punching him in the face. Saying it's Frieza also when he has no control of the fight is not common sense at all.

@omega_kai: It sure is.

@nemesisreloaded:

Incorrect. Golden frieza managed to block many of dyspo's attacks. He was getting pushed back, but that was fight, it wasn't simply dyspo pushing a helpless frieza.

https://youtu.be/l8x4cV0ff6o

The fight is in the video. At 2:00, zeno starts complaining about not being able to see. He then uses the god pad, but the god pad can only display those "clashes" we're used to see in dbz. Pay attention to the fact that one of those clashes fail to capture both frieza and dyspo.

If we go by the logic that the god pad can capture movements from MUI goku and jiren, then golden frieza is also faster than both. Which is obviously incorrect.

The same video shows DBS being inconsistent with itself. Zeno needed the god pad to watch hit vs dyspo. With dyspo using only LS.

That said, zeno can't follow simple LS without the godpad. However, regarding frieza vs dyspo, he was watching the golden frieza vs LS dyspo even without the godpad. Pay attention that only after 2:00 zeno remembers the godpad.

Like I said previously, it is way more likely that either zeno is watching the current fight without any idea of what's going on, or it's a simple inconsistency.

Or you can believe that golden frieza is faster than MUI goku and Jiren as well. And that is lack of common sense.

@nemesisreloaded:

You could argue that in the video I posted, the grand priest (or should I say el grande padre) commented that "dyspo san speed is to fast for the god pad". He makes no comments about frieza. However, it could be that frieza's speed is simply implied, as he is fighting dyspo.

If you don't agree with that, you can't deny on screen godpad failing to capture golden frieza.

Another evidence that would point towards UI goku being faster is that, in the previous episode, all the Z fighters could see were clashes (when goku was defending from Jiren's rampage). They failed to notice most of the movements of goku's ans jiren's arms.

However, the same Z fighters had no problems keeping up with dyspo's movements in hos fight with frieza. Even when he went SMS, they could clearly see frieza was having a hard time.

To me, that's another inconsistency. No one besides the gods should be keeping up with dyspo's speed. No one other than vegeta, dyspo, toppo, frieza, and the gods should keep up with goku vs jiren.

I get where you people are coming from. Dyspo is confimed to be FTL and for some reason is unacceptable that db characters reach that speed. Honestly, I nevet understood why you people fight so much over this. Dragon ball is enjoyable, but very inconsistent with battle feats. Characters don't even seem super sonic at times. At other times Id say they were FTL before super.

I seriously fail to understand why you people are so crazy with these topics, but that's not my problem.

However, saying that dyspo is faster than MUI goku is going way too far. I don't care if they are FTL or slower than sound. I do care to keep at least some of the show's consistency. So if you came here claiming muten roshi could outspeed jiren for some reason, I would be annoyed.

@wolfus: lol "you people"?

Tell you what son, when you learn to speak to people you don't know without sounding as arrogant as you do, then I'll consider listening when you have something to say.

@wolfus: You said "you people" 3 different times. Why are you getting so offensive? lol

@nemesisreloaded:

Oh, sorry, that was not intention. I seriously meant you people without arrogance, as in you guys that love these power level stuff. But the sentence would've been too big, see?

Can we settle for "you folks"?

English is not my first language. I forget that some expressions directly translated may sound very different.

@mainjp:

My bad. I didn't know that "you people" would upset people. Read previous comment please

@alextheboss: @mainjp:

@nemesisreloaded said:

Super Max Speed Dyspo is the fastest character. He was the only character too fast for the God Pad.

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It's an on panel feat showing Frieza being too fast for the Godpad too.

And Even GoD Toppo was too fast for Frieza, Not saying Frieza couldn't react to him, But he couldn't react properly because Ttoppo had the advantage in strength too.

To me, since Dyspo has linear movements, there would definitely be nothing to see after his fast movements, But Goku and Jiren's movements leave afterimages and explosions, which is enough for Zeno to locate and keep track of their fight. Toppo only noticed Goku switched to attack after noticing the shockwaves from their punches, he couldn't really see their punches.

Official previews and titles are considered canon, and the preview of this episode stated that their movements are out of this dimension. No idea where to put their speed accordingly but it's naturally above what the title of episode 104 said: " a faster than light battle begins ". Fans can't expect the writers to use the same expressions they use. I wouldn't be impressed if the preview said:" a massively faster than light battle ", I'd definitely say that this is pure fan service. So what is faster than "faster than light"? a speed out of this dimension, I guess,,,,??

@zoldycklogic: GoD Toppo never proved he was faster than Golden Frieza, not sure where you got that.

I am sorry I meant to say final form Frieza, the one that was able to keep up with speed mode Dyspo ( not super max speed Dyspo )

skip to 1:20

Not really, It's confusing, to be honest. Even though I agree they are faster. Jiren is shown to be faster than a spaceship in the manga and Dyspo was impressed by that. But the anime leaves plenty of things unexplained.

@zoldycklogic: Final form Frieza wasn't too fast for the God pad and the Frieza Toppo blitzed was damaged and could barely stand. It doesn't real prove much. I don't know about Jiren, but max speed Dyspo should be faster than any version of Toppo.

Because Dyspo has faster travel speed than Goku and Jiren. Goku and Jiren have faster combat speed than Dyspo.

It was proved in the manga that Jiren is faster than Dyspo

@zoldycklogic:

I understand that this particular frame is the bone of contention, but in the sequence immediately preceding that Dyspo is knocking Frieza left and right - literally - and is continually following up on wherever he sent Frieza flying. The frame in question is no different from my point of view. The very next frames are Frieza being punched somewhere else with no reply. In my view, what happened was Frieza got punched into the air and then got punched again, creating the shockwave. Also, when Golden Frieza was beating on Dyspo he wasn't too fast for the God Pad, it was only when Dyspo went Super Max Light Speed Mode, and I don't think it counts if Dyspo makes Frieza move that fast.

I think it's also worth pointing out that the DB characters haven't been able to actually see the fighting for a long time. It's long been too fast. They sense ki and movement instead. They don't see it, they 'see' it.

Does that make sense? Thats my reasoning anyway.

And if in the coming episode when Jiren powers up to Goku's level again, it turns out that's wrong, its all good. Thats just how I see this scene as it is.

All good man.

Just something to bare in mind as part of the English language, I'll read through what you said later.

not really. Watch the fight carefully and you will notice that the frame I used, this is where Frieza and Dyspo are rushing towards each other, then the clash comes afterward.

and the GP states that it's a battle that can't be seen.

at 1:57 exactly.

2_ It definitely makes sense, That's why the warriors are able to keep track of the battle even though light won't. Even Khai was able to notice that Golden Frieza is faster than Dyspo's already confirmed faster than light movements.

As I said, we can blame the writes, or we can say that Goku's and Jiren's style leaves enough afterimages for Zeno to enjoy the fight without the need of actually seeing them.

@zoldycklogic: Yeah we're talking about the same frames. It seems illogical to me that when Frieza is being overwhelmed (with speed, not power), constantly on the back foot and being punched around that there'd be one moment in the middle of all that harassment where Frieza and Dyspo jump at each other in the air and clash. It seem to me much more reasonable that Frieza launching up in the air at Dyspo's speed in the middle of Dyspo knocking him around the arena is down to Dyspo, not Frieza.

@nemesisreloaded:

We've seen clashes between 2 opponents in which one is considerably outmatched several times.

That frame is pretty obvious that they're clashing.

Plus, other evidences that follow the same logic as yours. The Z fighters could describe the battle between freeza and dyspo. They noticed freeza was losing. The same Z fighters had a hard time noticing that goku was clashing fists with jiren in that scene in which goku is standing on a small rock.

The other possibility is that zeno started to enjoy battles too fast for him to see. There are explosions, colors, that's probably "cool enough". Zeno only says "goku and jiren are super amazing". They don't describe anything from the fight. It was never stated that the god pad could capture jiren and zeno either.

Analysing this situation, there are far more likely possibilities that explain such event than "dyspo is faster".

Probably because Dyspo is much faster than Jiren and Goku

is Gohan faster than Jiren and Goku considering he could percieve Dyspo's movements dodge his ki blasts and even tag him twice?(these events are not when freeza trapped him in his cage)

ABC logic doesn't apply here. Even though Dyspo is the fastest non-god/angel, his use of speed is linear, making it easy for certain warriors to predict and react. That's how Gohan, Goku, Frieza, and Hit were able to eventually counter his otherwise incredible speed.

yet they still tagged him meaning they're near the same ballpark as Dyspo and the gap in speed is not as big.

For example if Whis flew at Kid Goku at 10,000 xFTL in a straight line from about 50 feet away do you think Kid Goku could dodge him just because he's coming at him in a straight line?

The answer would be no,he would need MFTL reactions to perceive his movements or else it would be a blur.Freeza,Gohan could perceive Dyspo's movements but not necessarily move just as fast as him but to perceive his movements they would all need MFTL reactions.

Dyspo isn't blitzing them from a solar system away he's a couple feet away.

Bad writing ?

Lol at people saying dyspo is faster.

This site is cancer with its lowballing

bad inconsistent writing but that's to be expected with dragon ball. Tho DB haters and lowballers will say dyspo is faster

Because it was a trait/gag that was only written for Dyspo by Toei. It's not supposed to be taken seriously.

Dyspo isn't faster than Jiren or MUI Goku. Heck, even Golden Frieza could outspeed 1000x accelerated already FTL Dyspo and perceive him even in his maximum speed. Not even close even by feats since MUI is supposed to be 100s or 1000s of times faster and stronger than Blue tier opponents. The first-ever UI alone has blitzed Dyspo before. Not to mention Dyspo was also blitzed in the manga by Jiren when he came from outer space at MFTL speeds and took a monster out from one end of the planet to another in an instant.

It's because Akira Toriyama browses these forums, and wanted to throw the downplayers a bone.

Dyspo Power comes from his Speed - his massive bursts of Speed ( in short times ) allows him to exert power that contends with SSGSS ...

• But when Dyspo's Speed is limited ( via Golden Frieza's Laser Cage ) ... he's unable to produced his maxium output - which is why DBS Ultimate Gohan was able to fight Dyspo evenly due to the lack of freedom in utilizing his (Dyspo's) Speed

EDIT: He's able to move right-before his opponents makes a move because he can hear the vibrations in the Opponent's Limb(s) that move ... or something like that

naaah ... its sh!t tier writing

There's no way Dyspo is faster than full power Jiren and MUI Goku. UI Goku was casually walking through ki blasts and while he was doing that it took Dyspo seconds to react. MUI was higher than that, and so is Jiren who could block hits from MUI Goku.

So it's likely that it's bad writing.

Piccolo was shocked by MUI Goku's speed when he already saw Dyspo's speed

Even Supreme Kai noticed his speed was impressive

Dyspo could never dream of tagging Goku or Jiren

@legendarykal-el: Bravo