Where would we place Current Goku durability?

@nemesisreloaded:

Destroyed the sphere of destruction. A portion of his body took universal energy while weakened, and so his durability is at Universal

And

You used a made up number to put your own personal limit on ssjb strength instead of providing proof from the actual series.

@blackgoku: Are you saying Goku has universal durability thanks to punching apart the sphere of destruction? If so, when was that attack ever stated to be universal?

@blackgoku said:

I calculated the force required to smash out a specific amount of King Kai's planet after calculating the mass and density of the planet based on it's size and gravity using gravitational equations and the size of his car as compared to the planet. Goku hit the planet full strength and a specific amount of mass broke away due to the force imparted into the planet.

[https://comicvine.gamespot.com/dragon-ball-universe/4015-56629/forums/dragonball-universe-standardised-feats-list-1847904/ - check under the "Striking Power" heading]

I then took the information we know about SSG and SSB to devise a logarithm table that works under all requirements and used it to estimate comparative strength against Vegeta's enraged SS2 - which as an estimate, makes SSB around 40,000x more powerful than SS3.

[https://comicvine.gamespot.com/dragon-ball-universe/4015-56629/forums/my-ultimate-mega-power-level-list-1857641/ - Check section 12: Conditions For God Ki, and 13: God Ki Scale]

They are not official numbers, it is just theory. None of it is confirmed, and all evidence is directly from the show or manga. Also, Goku did no such thing. Watch the show again. Only Beerus destroyed a Universe threatening energy ball. The one Goku destroyed was never said to be universe destroying and looked entirely different to the one that was. Also, Goku didn't destroy it. He detonated it. Watch the show again.

@nemesisreloaded: Ssj3 Gokus feats don't apply to Ssjg gokus.

2 things makes this feat irrelevant

1)Cell destroyed the entire thing is self destruct. Ssj3 gokus punches are beyond that.

2) Never happened in the anime.

The info you have is clearly contradicted by feats, and uses speculation more then solid facts.

Timothy proved the sphere of destruction>>Super dense energy sphere

you are arguing that every sphere of destruction beerus used has universal capacity of destruction. that's false equivalence when the one used in beerus and champa's fight had more context on its destructive capability given how vados and whis interferred than the one used against goku which has no context on how strong it is though it would be capable of destroying earth. that's like saying every ki blast fired by anyone is on the same capability regardless whether they can control its output or not.

@kyrees: Don't forget that Beerus also used a sphere of destruction during Goku's and Vegeta's training and Whis didn't anything either when it destroyed a planetoid, though mentioned if was actually dangerous, he would have fixed it.

Basically, if anything Beerus would do would be a universal threat, Whis would have stopped it.

Wait, does that mean Beerus telling Bulma that the universe would be destroyed, that it would also be a universal threat?

whis could have stopped it until he decides otherwise. remember beerus is still a god of destruction and it's his job to destroy stuff.

context is all there to it.

@blackgoku:

"Ssj3 Gokus feats don't apply to Ssjg gokus.

2 things makes this feat irrelevant

1)Cell destroyed the entire thing is self destruct. Ssj3 gokus punches are beyond that.

2) Never happened in the anime.

The info you have is clearly contradicted by feats, and uses speculation more then solid facts.

Timothy proved the sphere of destruction>>Super dense energy sphere"

At some point, you're going to have to realise 2 things.

1 - the physical strength of a fighter is not even close to being equal to the power of a ki blast, regardless of the form of that Ki blast.

2 - the manga is not based on the anime, it is based on Akira Toriyamas storyboards, just like the anime is. The original version of this event is the DBZ Movie Battle of God's, in which Goku punches a hole through the planet while trying to hit Beerus and missing. The manga is the closest representation of this Original canonical event. The anime, in other words, is wrong about the hole in King Kais planet.

And so is Timothy. The Super Dense energy sphere was specifically describes by two separate godly beings to be capable of destroying the universe, in part because the ball was super dense. The ball Goku detonated was not super dense. Nor was Goku full power when his energy added to the ball, nor did Beerus use anything close to the same level of energy on it to make it super dense, nor did it even destroy the earth when it did explode, nor did Beerus need to nullify it like he did the actual universe destroying sphere, nor did he feel the need to.

So much evidence - from the anime - telling you your wrong, but you didn't listen to it.

I'm fairly sure it isn't Beerus' job to destroy the universe.

god of destruction title is an open ended title though.

@kyrees: @nemesisreloaded:

A quick skirmish like champas and beerus cannot be used as Vados and whis stopped both of them before they can do anything.

1) Yet Gokus punches as a Ssj did more damage to Frieza then his kaioken X20 Kamehameha.

2) Both are as canon as each other. Both use Toriyama story drafts and take it down a path that they decide.

No, it was described to be that Power when it exploded. Beerus nullified it's blast.

Beerus statement

https://plus.google.com/108076275237231555495/posts/csXqf9jmhTS

It flat out says gokus energy>The super dense energy sphere.

Ki control. Beerus showed clear control over the sphere of destruction, but the the dense energy sphere.

That was PIS

that quick skirmish tells a lot given two actual universal class beings were stopped by their attendant/teacher from doing something unnecessary. it's far more significant than the results of the skirmish of which the other guy lost. in fact, why can't whis just stop the fight of beerus and goku ?

do a logical exercise here, if something is stronger, would it be more logical that said thing be the winner ? if goku's energy technically surpassed beerus's energy then why did he still lose in both the movie and the anime ? leaning on the interpretation of some relative unknown guy on the internet when you can't form your own conclusion tells a lot on your lack of analysis to it.

both being canon means both need to be accounted accordingly and as it stand, neither support each other fully. inconsistency on both medium is rife.

Not really, their job is to work with their Supreme Kai to cultivate mortal life. The Kais do this by helping create mortals and possibly guide them, while the Gods of Destruction do this by destroyed extremely problematic ones. Sadly, both the Supreme Kai and God of Destruction of Universe 7 are crap at their jobs.

The Angel's job is to help the very, very, destructive god from causing too many problems and destroying their workplace when they have a fit.

@kyrees:

They stopped it before they could destroy the universe. Same thing happened in the manga.

Because beerus was holding back massively and could increase his power anytime is why goku surpassed his technique.

They take their own separate paths. You can't use one to debunk another when it's told in a different way, even if it's the same story.

by actually stopping it proves how much they know of its potency as opposed to whis not practically doing anything in beerus's fight against goku. heck, whis knows how much goku still needs to grow in terms of usage of god ki by the time they were training under him

beerus holding back massively doesn't prove all his attacks were universal nor goku surpassed it to be argued as universal. by that regard, surpassing a suppressed technique is not going to turn you into a level you want him because you have no idea how that technique actually works nor you have any idea how suppressed that attack was. for example, by now you have seen a god of destruction hakai a whole city when its previous appearance only worked on close range against one guy. these kind of showing indicate how much these character can hold back on their powers.

the manga and anime taking their own paths doesn't excuse the fact that the angels physically intervene in between actual universal class beings. the manga may take a brute force approach but the anime practically mirrors the gist of that exchange.

Yet whis said that their struggle would destroy the universe ?

It is when the stresses technique is stated to be able to destroy universe 7 that he surpassed.

I don't see how that debunks the statements made during beeruses and gokus clash.

whis making a statement vs whis actually interfering. what do you think weighs more in terms of how much a character reacted ? i sure won't be taking anyone seriously if they are just going to talk there.

you are not making sense by saying "stresses technique".

whis is both teacher/attendant to beerus and current teacher to goku. he's practically someone who understands their power better given that status so failing to see that means ignoring whis's influence on this characters as a whole.

@blackgoku: In the manga it was never stated the shockwaves would destroy the universe. Just when elder Kai felt the shockwaves from where he was he was afraid for the universe.

Universal

@kyrees: Lol he knew beerus would nullify the blast.

Meant suppressed

he stated it would destroy the universe.

@keyboardthug9: Proof that.

that proves the sphere of destruction was universal ? that's a long reach when beerus was still suppressing his attacks and it would be illogical for him to throw an attack that would actually wipe the universe since he wanted to see goku's potential. heck, in the anime and manga, the kais were practically concerned because of the waves getting stronger as it grew farther. if beerus was pouring more energy in that fight, those waves would have been more deadlier as seen by champa and beerus's fight.

you are confusing the waves's effect to the sphere of destruction.

What he said

@kyrees:

Gokus power was>Super dense energy ball.

Lel head canon again.

I'm not even talking about the waves.

that super dense energy ball was never stated to be universal, never even implied to be one. how you assume it to be one is assuming beyond what the show has seen but feel free to be more correct than the show.

the waves are the only thing so far in the show to be stated to be of "universal destructibility", aside from zeno's wipe. there's a point here that you practically ignored darkpaladin's question on where was it stated that super dense energy ball was universal but i guess your head cannon is better than ours.

@blackgoku: No attack in the SSG fight vs Beerus was universal, or at least not proven to be. They were only threatening the universe because they were unbalancing in a similar way Buuhan was.

Highly durable, would be the correct answer. Nothing is consistent in DBS, so I'm not going to go any further than that, lol

No, the energy that Beerus nullified was said to be universal too.

i forgot about that

Goku's durability is at least galaxy level possibly up to universal + lvel.

@superhero24: It is.

@alextheboss: @kyrees: https://plus.google.com/117394599739439234414/posts/jK8r9PQt4Gr

@blackgoku: again using someone else's interpretation, not your own interpretation. you might as well call timothy here and argue for us but then again that's ignoring the fact that any actual universe level attacks from beerus stated from the series, he actively chooses to nullify or whis chooses to interfere. how does power scaling and assumption make that ball universal when there is no actual material stated to its potency ? i would rather trust toriyama/toyotaro's interpretation despite it being wonky because fan assumption are still fan assumption and it will never be higher than actual material.

the key question still remains: where is it stated that ball was capable of wiping out the universe. another point is did goku actually took its brunt or not ?

@kyrees: You refuted nothing.

there is nothing to refute if all there is to it is fan power scaling (emphasis on the fan part), not actual direct confirmation. i steadfast ask this question again: where was it stated that ball was universal level and did goku actually took the brunt of that damage or not ?

we can do this all night but in the end, you can't prove your own arguments enough because you rely too much on power scaling where by now, these characters can actually be established on certain levels by their authors.

@kyrees: YOU ASKED FOR PROOF, and that is what I gave you.

the proof i am asking you is a line or a statement or practically anything that denotes that attack was on some level of destructibility, not power scaling which super really doesn't do well anymore and not certainly fan interpretation for obvious reasons.

@kyrees: That is proof, what the fuck. Did you even read it? Of course not.

@blackgoku: i read as it is and no, it is not enough. your arguments and timothy's rely too much on power scaling not on direct confirmation.

@kyrees: Powerscaling is the basis of DB, always been. Your logic doesn't follow.

@blackgoku: always been ? by super's arrival, power scaling has been a roller coaster ride where no dragonball fan could defend with a straight face. i want far more solid proofs than that.

So, what I'm getting from this thread is that there is insufficient evidence to even entertain the notion of Goku having universal durability, or being universal in any way for that matter. Color me surprised.

@thedarkpaladin: You can prove he has Universal durability.

@zoomspeedblitz: By all means, prove it.

@thedarkpaladin: I don't think you understand my comment. Are You saying Goku DOES NOT HAVE Universal durability.

@zoomspeedblitz: I'm saying there's a lack of concrete evidence to suggest he has universal durability. Your reply suggested otherwise. Hence, why I asked you to prove it.

@thedarkpaladin: I gave it, but again. Like usual, you people ignore it.

@blackgoku: you conveniently ignore super's power level problems. why should we reconsider that again ? it would have been far easier to consider it if the current series has little power scaling problems like z had but then we start scaling on that, then the trickle down effect of every character that fought goku, beerus and vegeta becomes more apparent and downright problematic.