What tier is 17 ?

He has had many showing this arc

definitely stronger than SSG by showings ( scaling )

SSJ 3/ Solar System, in the manga.

Multi-Galaxy/ SSJ God Blue, in the anime.

SSJB level. Just weaker than Goku and Vegeta. Some where in the ball park of Frieza I'd imagine.

SSJB Level, Android 17 is a solid high tier fighter Examples: SSJB Goku, SSJB Vegeta, Golden Frieza, Hit ect. He's definitely above SSG and lower SSJ forms that's for sure.

@LeonardoTMNT I assume you mean Goku and Vegeta with there upper forms, I think 17 has a solid chance of beating blue Vegeta (No royale) and at the least give a great fight to Goku.

@chronicplane: he does not beat blue Vegeta. Blue Vegeta was tagging jiren clean and used a final flash that made 17 and Gohan crap themselves.

I have 17 at about black saga SSB tier/rose tier.

He's just got good tactics. He doesn't bum rush like Goku and Vegeta do. Whenever he's tried that he got butchered pretty badly.

@scotchbear: So you think A17 is weak then?, You don't think he wouldn't stand a chance against Blue level characters that are above black arc even though he's fought and stalemated SSJB Goku before the ToP even started?

Me personally I have him on SSJB Tier current, I think he's performance in this ToP and showings have me convinced and I feel that you'd need to be above black arc in order to stand up to Jiren.

last episode showed he stands a better chance against Jiren than the other 2 saiyans evidenced by when 17 clashed fist with Jiren. he also all 3 characters are stronger than ui Goku only character that needs to improve and rise up us frieza who is still ssj blue level.

frieza is getting the Gohan treatment and getting ragdolled by no name characters, past 4 episodes was stupid.

@chronicplane: I didn't say he was weak. Ssj Rose is not weak by any means.

He's a master strategist though which boosts his effectiveness.

Think of Goku and Vegeta as level 75 Pokemon using water attacks against a level 100 water Pokemon, it won't do anything. 17 is a level 50 Pokemon who uses electric attacks on that same Pokemon so he is more effective.

It's been shown a front on assault against jiren is ineffective, yet Goku and Vegeta continue to bull rush him.

17 used strategy and looked for openings to attack. Which is more effective against jiren than attacking him head on.

When 17 attempted to fight people head on he got crapped on. He tried to fight toppo head on and lost, then tried to attack jiren head on and got beat badly.

Vegeta was able to bullrush toppo because Vegeta has the raw power to be careless like that against people around his level.

A level 75 Pokemon will eventually beat a level 70 Pokemon if they both use the same attacks on each other over and over.

The level 50 Pokemon has to be smart with every move or it'll lose.

@scotchbear: So 17 is weak then, He looses to SSJB Goku, SSJB Vegeta, Jiren, Toppo, Golden Frieza, UI Goku, Base Kefla +, LS Dyspo, Any GoD and Angels, Vegito, Hit, Zamasu probably not a really good representation of being strong and these are just ones off the top of my head.

More like in this show anyone that either isn't GoD Tier or Goku/Vegeta is weak, Intelligence means nothing in Dragon ball tbh and SSJR might as well be weak as this point it would get stomped by anyone above Black Arc.

Yeah sure If you compare current 17 to Z or early S he might be considered strong but the current takes higher priority and as of now he's mediocre at best, weak at worst considering all the people I've listed he wouldn't be able to last a minute with against if they are serious.

And please don't compare him to people like Krillin or Piccolo which are even worse, they might as well be forgotten at this point. Why do you think Yamcha gave up being a fighter because he knows he's trash and 17 compared to his comrades isn't impressive.

@chronicplane: what are you talking about? I didn't say 17 was weak, nor did I compare him to krillin.

Intelligent fighting and strategy didn't matter in dbz, it does in dbs.

There's been several examples in dbs where a weaker opponent capitalized on an opening to beat a stronger character.

I'm saying 17 is below current SSB Goku and Vegeta, probably around rose level. But he usually plans very well and uses great strategy against people.

Where Goku and Vegeta usually use the "I'mma punch you really hard and hope it works strategy" no matter how much it fails.

Slightly below GF

@scotchbear:

what are you talking about? I didn't say 17 was weak, nor did I compare him to krillin.

Doesn't sound anything impressive and here is a question, If 17 is apparently only SSJR Tier how did he hold up so well in his exchange against SSJB Goku right before the ToP began and after there practice matches.

I do apologize though as I thought you where going to compare him to MrMacWeak Krillin or Piccolo. Still if he can't even compete with the current then that should go to show he's not really impressive.

Intelligent fighting and strategy didn't matter in dbz, it does in dbs.

Oh come on, DBZ has always been a no brainer show for everyone who ever punches harder or has the higher power level auto wins pretty simple for something like street tier it holds much greater value as raw brute force isn't as massive as it is higher.

In Dragon Ball's case If your even a slither weaker than your opponent you auto loose and no case could be made.

There's been several examples in dbs where a weaker opponent capitalized on an opening to beat a stronger character.

Really, because I can't really remember any (Probably clouded with the whole Goku/Vegeta thing taking over) that are notable apart from like one or two, Still regardless the show for the majority of the time encourages brute force and no brain attacks rather than real intellectual fighting.

I'm saying 17 is below current SSB Goku and Vegeta, probably around rose level. But he usually plans very well and uses great strategy against people.

If intelligent fighting really does play a factor in the world of Dragon ball then how come he can't compete with people higher tier shouldn't his intelligent prowess make rank him on current SSJB or wait maybe it's because it means little.

Where Goku and Vegeta usually use the "I'mma punch you really hard and hope it works strategy" no matter how much it fails.

Proves my point the show encourages this seeing as it's mainly focused on these two the majority of the time, honestly this one of the reasons I preferably prefer other shonens such as Naruto or HxH which no fight is won with Brute Force and even when it does happen in those rare instances normally comes with a price.

@chronicplane: go enjoy your talk no jutsu lol.

@chronicplane: SSB Goku vs 17 was probably around rose level.

SSB vegeta is the one who beat up Goku black. Not Goku. Also 17 said Goku was holding back.

Sobart KOd Goku with a Lazer gun.

Damon knocked piccolo out, and almost knocked Vegeta out, hit froze jiren, Goku almost eliminated jiren, etc.

Strategy has been used a lot more in dbs than dbz.

And of course bull rushing is still the main way of fighting. It's the most popular style for anime.

@scotchbear: Forgot about those instances, though my point still stands in high tiers he'd be considered the weakest and that part makes me think he's weak.

Also 17 said Goku was holding back.

He was talking about him fighting him as a SSJ, he said that right after he changed into blue hence the part holding back as SSJ is weaker than blue.

@chronicplane: he's weak compared to jiren, toppo, Goku, Vegeta, and maybe frieza.

He placed 5th in a tournament of all the universes. Obviously he did something right.

He told SSB Goku he could tell Goku in SSB was holding back some

Anything in pre tournament saga was basically sparring. Do you really think Buu who trained is at base form level? 17 is at SSJ3 level with techniques that helps him fight stronger guys.

@scotchbear:

he's weak compared to jiren, toppo, Goku, Vegeta, and maybe frieza.

He placed 5th in a tournament of all the universes. Obviously he did something right.

Here's a list of all the people that are stronger than him, which I think he's weak. (In no particular order)

• SSJB Goku
• SSJB Vegeta
• Kefla
• Hit
• Toppo / GOD
• Golden Frieza
• Merged Zamasu
• Jiren
• Aniraza
• Goku Black
• SSJB Vegito
• SSJ-Rage Trunks (probably)
• Beerus
• Copy SSJB Vegeta
• Dyspo
• Zamasu
• Champa

Yeah not very impressive honestly he could be considered a mid tier like Ultimate Gohan, He fits more in Mid Tiers really High Tiers he's rather pathetic taken into consideration all things aside from SSJ-Rage Trunks (Probably not high tier) he'd loose to everyone here.

He told SSB Goku he could tell Goku in SSB was holding back some

No it was right after Goku transformed he said and I quote "To be honest, I didn't intend on using this" something around those lines which he was implying SSJB and A17 says and I quote "So you where holding back", Referring to prior he transformed when he was fighting him as a SSJ (the weak form pretty much).

It's rather hard to tell when Goku is going all out or not as a SSJB, I see no reason why he'd have to hold back otherwise he should've just stayed in his SSJ form.

@chronicplane: disagree with copy Vegeta.

That's a list of absolute god tier characters essentially. Total beasts. Several GoD tier characters are present on that list.

Dbs goes in my opinion with some examples

Low tier-krillin, Tien, etc

Mid tier-piccolo, frost, ssj Goku and vegeta, magetta

Lower end high tier-SSG Goku, controlled zerker Kale, ROF saga SSB

High tier-ssb Goku and Vegeta, black ssj rose, rage trunks, 17, golden frieza, hit, pre GoD toppo

GoD+ tier-beerus and other GoDs, royal blue Vegeta, Toppo, UI Goku, jiren, angels, SSB Vegito, SSB x20 kk Goku is on the lower end of that scale

@scotchbear: Well that's just a more detailed version, My point still stands he's still weaker than majority of characters that are notable, and he'd be considered weak in high tiers as basically everyone can beat him and you said it yourself Blue Vegeta or Goku stomp him including black, GF and everyone else on that tier. He'd get wrecked by GoD tiers.

What I'm getting at is 17 isn't all around impressive in his level.

Also you forgot to include Kefla, Ultimate Gohan, Aniraza, Dyspo and Zamasu.

@chronicplane: I was just tossing examples in the tiers so you could get a feel of what qualifies for what tier.

I think 17 could potentially give ssj rose black a hell of a fight. But in a 1v1 fight to the death situation that is where he would absolutely 100% Max out.

@scotchbear:

I was just tossing examples in the tiers so you could get a feel of what qualifies for what tier.

Alright, Just making sure.

I think 17 could potentially give ssj rose black a hell of a fight. But in a 1v1 fight to the death situation that is where he would absolutely 100% Max out.

I've made recently an Android 17 vs Goku Black that hasn't been done If you want to leave your thoughts on it.

He seems pretty bottom line SSB tier.

So how does everyone feel about 17 now that the series is done?

I still don't believe he is SSB tier. Seeing that he has unlimited energy and stamina, he couldn't do much against even a tired Jiren. Goku and Frieza had to do the bulk of the work.

Granted, the only thing 17 had were injuries, but so did everyone else. 17 was the only one with all his energy and stamina at full.

I think he's where Toriyama originally rated him, behind Frieza but ahead of Gohan IIRC.

low blue tier.

@slimj87d: i think you hit nail on the head with that

I too would put him at Gohan or slightly above with the added bonus of infinite stamina and energy and that energy Shield

I think episode 131 kinda showed how 17 knew that GF was stronger than Him by quite a decent margin

I'd say 17 is a good deal ahead of Gohan. He was able to survive a self destruct attempt, and blew up in his own attacks twice against Jiren and got right back up for some more, he even managed to damage Jiren before he was weakened. Gohan has no feats suggesting he could withstand the same, furthermore Gohan tried a charged up kamehameha on base Toppo and it did absolutely nothing. On the flip side 17 did more against the top two from U11. The power gap between Gohan and 17 is greater than it is between 17 and Frieza imo.

While 17 may have infinite stamina he definitely wasn't at full power the last EP, due to the fact his body was probably wrecked from all the self explosions he soaked. I say this due to the fact when 17 went against Jiren earlier(before Jiren became weakened, and before the self-destruct), 17 held up much better. We also can't forget how silly Jiren made Frieza look early on, something that did not happen to 17.

I see it like this; Goku>=Vegeta>>>Frieza>17>>Gohan

mid ultra intinct tier, he did something ssj blue's couldn't do.

Low SSB tier.

I would also argue around Frieza but probably a little less than Frieza. Overall he's definitely the fourth strongest.

He's still low SSB tier, a lot of his most impressive feats in the tournament are due to him having infinite stamina.

Unlike anyone else in the tournament (except for Goku cause plot) he could notably put the majority of power into any given attack and still keep coming at 100% capacity.

Also he was noticably weaker than Base Toppo, and SSB Vegeta >= Base Toppo based on their first fight.

So as to how anyone can put him on par with or greater than SSB level despite fairing worse against someone who couldn't beat an actual SSB is beyond me.

@LeonardoTMNT: that's true but then again everyone's body was wrecked during that time. 17 was the only one with full energy and stamina.

While true, I don't think Frieza was quite as beat up as Goku and 17(as far as their bodies are concerned). While Frieza performed well against a weakened Jiren, no one failed harder than him against a powered up Jiren given the fact he got one shot. Goku, Vegeta, and even 17 managed taking more hits from a powered up Jiren and didn't get knocked out. There was also that moment where Jiren's blast(meant for Kaio-Ken Goku and Ascended Blue Vegeta) missed and instead hit 17 and Frieza. It took only to the end of the episode for 17 to get back up, while Frieza was napping for far longer.

Frieza only did better against Jiren over 17 in one instance, while 17 managed better against a more powerful Jiren earlier on. My point is, is that the gap in power between them isn't that large. Though I'd still say Frieza holds the edge.

If SSB Goku and vegeta are 10s, Golden Frieza and Toppo are like 9.75s.

17 is like a 9, maybe 8.75. I'd put Gohan below 17 though, like an 8.5 or something.

He openly admitted he was NOT strong enough in raw power to beat pre GoD Toppo.

@LeonardoTMNT: for his level, I think 17 has the best defense to his tier. He's possibly the smartest fighter also.

But raw power, he might be lacking or his power is just where his tier is.

His defense and intellect is do high it is what allowed him to win the tournament and survive for so long. But I don't think he has the offense on par with full fledged SSB.

That puts him somewhere in between. SSB level defense, but a tier lower in offense.

It also helps his infinity energy allows him to spam his shield. If he got tired and the shield drained his ki, he very well could be below Gohan for those reasons.

He's a interesting character to place in a tier system.

I still think 17 did some hardcore training in woods for 10 years after realizing what Kid Buu is capable off. Don't forget he wanted to be the strongest like Goku does.

Slightly below Mastered Legendary Ultra Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan God Super Oozaru 4 Grade 5 Instinct Berserk Super Kaioken X 69 Gogito.

@thedeathstar:

I find it hard to believe that he could train as hard as anyone else secluded.

No rival, no one to spar with, standard earth gravity, etc.

It just sounds unbelievable to me. I'd believe it more of it was explained they had a steady creep in power due to the way they were designed or something and over 10 years he became that's powerful.

But it sounds odd he could get so strong training without having anyone to test his strength against.

Considering little Saiyans childs became Super Saiyan training in woods for barely any years. Android 17 who trained for 10 years, was already aware of a threat like Kid Buu and his infinite stamina, plus he cannot be detected, he can do a lot of hardcore training and keep it all day long without getting tired. I don't doubt his power knowing he wanted to be the strongest himself since the start.

The Saiyan children were rivals though, and they'd test their abilities against one another. In addition, they inherited their genes from their fathers. Toriyama later mentioned them having a lot of S cells for their age.

Goten and Trunks being strong makes more sense than 17 becoming 10,000s of times stronger. I haven't done the math, but it could be that 17 became 100,000s of times stronger, but doing what? He didn't train under different kinds of gravity or fight against a rival that brought out his true potential via competing and sparring.

I'm not denying 17s strength, as I've gauged it earlier. I don't see him he got so strong. There needs to be a better explanation than he just "trained" because I don't see how he could have trained by himself as well as Whis training Vegeta and Goku.

It took a lot for Goku and Vegeta to become that powerful. They got trained by the strongest being that we know of in Universe 7 and obtained the ability to get God ki.

Gohan even had a hax to unlock his full potential and got a mystic form.

17? Trained in the woods? It just sounds silly to me no matter how much we come up with ways for him to obtain that much power from the end of the cell games.

@slimj87d: The same way Frieza did only for 4 months with a much much weaker character against him.

But Frieza getting stupidly strong was dumb also. Just as dumb as 17.

I only give them both a pass because this is a child's TV show obviously.

17 won the Tournament, clearly he is the most powerful among everyone who comepeted, including Jiren and Ultra instinct Goku. I'd say 17 is somewhere around Whis tier. Feats are Trash. W's mean everything. /s

@cerberus369616: lol the trolling. Everyone knows who won the ToP, Hit with his hidden clone.

@slimj87d:

Infinite stamina is a pretty huge training tool. He can push his body to it's maximum indefinitely where as people in the real world struggle to lift their max weight or run their top speed for more than a minute or so.

Vegeta might have gravity training, but he still needs to dedicate more time to resting than he can train. He also needs to take time to eat and sleep where as 17 doesn't. Meanwhile 17 can reach similar physical strain with enough weight. It might not be as efficient as gravity training, but the fact 17 doesn't have to stop more than makes up for that.

And that's all not getting into the fact that 17 has a number of bio-mechanical enhancements. He could very well just grow muscle strength and energy reserves faster than Saiyans.

His job could also be argued as training. The Dragonball world is not a safe place. There's a reason a chunk of Piccolo's training for Gohan, as well as the training Tien and Yamcha employ, involved going out into the wilderness to survive on their own was a thing. The world is filled with large beasts and dinosaurs, and surviving off the land helps hone your instincts and senses. It might not be as intense as gravity training, but in the world of Dragonball being a survivalist can and does raise your battle power as you train.

I agree, 17 is not strong as current SSJB Goku and Vegeta(more or less around Black arc Goku/Vegeta). Like Golden Frieza, 17 is under all three when full power is considered. However I don't see 17 under Gohan in any form or fashion, 17 has him beat in every category based on feats. Though I'd give Gohan the edge when it comes to proactive strategy. 17 battle smarts are more reactive and instinct.

Yep, he's going to pop out of his dimension at any moment, lol

MVP tier, that's where.