Sayian needing air

So with end of dragon ball super characters in dragon have reach universal+ level in power. But, the Sayians still have a fundamental weakness that I feel should be recton to them not needing to breathe or they can use ki to create air. The same way other characters can create physical material with ki. By doing so it would allow the sayian fight to expand past just a single planet and have more varied environments.

But Goku isn't Universal +, he's at most dust mite level.

Breathing with Ki does sound like a good solution.

@mainjp: they will never make advanced oxygen maskes for goku and vegeta or the main Z cast, as Toriyama literally just want to keep them planetary level by feats and keep battles only on planets or near planets. Yet there is a Rabbit and several thug accomplice floating in spac for years xd. There is a bigger chance of a mini broly walking around now bullying midget goten and trunks who would be mama broly? xd.

Why can't they have weaknesses?

@shenron007: That's a good point.

@mainjp: will broly's first kid be a daughter or son? xd 0_0

@lordragoon: By ki being used to create physical objects, are you referring to when Piccolo created clothes for Gohan and other related instances? This in fact not ki, but a form of magic that Namekians and other beings possess. Why they have it, it's not clear, but it's the same logic that led to them being able to create the Dragon Balls. Namekians are magic in nature, so creating simple physical objects is easy for them.

So if they are other beings like them (Demons, Gods, other magical beings) were to use this technique, it could technically be possible. Air shouldn't be that hard to create versus clothes and whatnot, so it to use it to breathe in space is certainly possible.

But for beings that don't possess this ability, naturally it wouldn't be an option. Even beings who are massively powerful like our main cast, they don't have the ability to create air, even with massive amounts of ki.

@trask10100: they have defence barriers that negate ki blast and other physical and non physical matter. So they should certainly be able to conserve oxygen within the barrier but considering the tempretures they can with stand and also train in extreme gravity surviving in space shouldn't be a problem for goku and vegeta at all.

I am not saying Sayian shouldn't have weakness, but at their level of power it really limits their mobility since they are always stuck on a planet. I hope that when super return they would recton this away so that we can have more fights in different environments.

@lordragoon: wasn't top enuff different environment for you? xd every battle created by toriyama was limiting their flight to the ground. all the awesome space battles are from movies. only 1 filler has vegeta looking for goku through space the obsession much xd.

@shenron007: True, at this point space shouldn't be a barrier considering the level they're at, but it hasn't been directly covered yet. As for the barrier strategy, it is true they could capture air and bring it with them, but this would have a limited effect. Let's say for instance, they create a bubble and bring it with them into space. From there, they would have to stay inside the barrier to continue having the air. At best, I could see ki blasts coming from that sort of position, but not a physical. The barrier would have to be dropped at some point and once it goes down, the air is certainly lost.

As for being able to survive in such extreme conditions, you're right. But each is a specific condition, versus extreme heat, versus extreme cold, versus extreme pressure and weight, etc. The fact is oxygen is something they need to function and probably not something they could overcome with training. They may be able to survive on incredibly low levels of air, but not in zero air. Biologically speaking, it may be impossible for them to reach that stage.

@trask10100: they have overcome much thougher things then surviving in vacuum so bioligically speaking it should be childs play to them. 500x earth gravity is no joke xd.

People always concerned with the silliest things. "Why must my character have to breathe?"

Not really, you can't change something that your body biologically needs. 500x gravity is a different story, leveling their bodies up to withstand such extreme gravity through training is plausible. No amount of training through running, meditating, or lifting weights is going to allow you to breath without air.

@trask10100: the clothes beam has never been stated to be magic that’s a reach.

Also they never stated they used any form of magic to create the dragon balls, only that they chipped a small piece off the super dragon balls to make them.

@shenron007: I agree with Leonardo, it's not a matter of training, it's simply something they can't physically do. A similar example would be they no matter how much they trained, they'd never be able to change the fact that they need to eat food to survive.

@skrskr: You are correct, it's never stated as such in the manga or anime by any of the characters, but it's implied to be. Specifically, the Dragon Clan of Namekians is capable of Magic Materialization. Those who reach the highest level are capable of creating Dragon Balls. It's already pretty consistent with this, as only Kami, Piccolo, Guru, and Dende are shown to have these abilities. Dabura and Spike the Devilman are also examples of evil magical beings capable of similar materialization. It's not so to speak a direct result of being magical wizards like Babidi, but simply an extension of magic ability that they happen to have.

@trask10100: or this is just a technique based around ki and is more intricate than power based.

Just like whis making the weighted suits

Or Kais showing the same ability

So no not just the namekians, just because the wiki has it listed as magic materialization doesn’t mean it is unless it’s stated.

Godly Ki for the Kais and Whis.

The Kais are still gods of creation, so I wouldn't be surprised if materialization is an intrinsic to them, and Whis is an Angel.

It also should be noted that Piccolo has some unusual techniques for a Warrior clansmen, as he inherited a number of Dragon clan techniques from King Piccolo (cloths beam). In Dragon Ball, magic is more the exception than the rule, like with the Dragon clan Namekians, with ki being an entirely different power set that appears to be common to everyone.

@skrskr: Right, I believe nilok said it best, it was more an exception than a rule. If it was ki based or magic based, it was never stated which. It could easily be ki based, though, given that we do see bursts of energy and whatnot. It just appears to be more magic related given the context and related abilities (and of course those who can use them).

@nilok: except god ki isn’t an actual form of ki, it’s just the act of holding your ki inside your body without letting it leak which is shown when whis is training goku and vegeta to hold their ki in and they clash and create the ssb aura around their fists and this is also why vegeta didn’t need the ritual to go ssg.

Also why the trio de dangers ki couldn’t be sensed even though they were fighting

Also King Kai does not have god ki

And none of the other Kais have ever been said to or have implied to use it either

There is no evidence that suggests the Kais and whis’s Creation isn’t ki based

And would actually make sense as to why goku black a kai In gokus body could constantly keep creating new techniques on the fly (rose form, scythe, clones)

Because they just know more about how ki works and things you can do with it.

Which is where I think future of super will go I’ve always said to my friends about how it would be cool if they could materialize air through ki so they can fight in space after a lesson from whis or a kai.

@skrskr: Golden Frieza Arc completely ruined the concept of godly Ki. I felt so bad when they made it that way. Now any mortal being who is taught how to prevent Ki from leaking has godly Ki. They could have made it better.

@tronmest35: yeah but it does make t easier to keep everyone else relevant, like when it returns the whole main cast could have learned this and become slightly more relevant in fights.

@skrskr: God ki and ki are not the same thing. Whis' training for not letting their ki leak out of their body was to help them use the god ki they had gained, but itself isn't god ki. If god ki was just holding their ki in, it couldn't be easily sensed by other diving beings since by that definition, there is nothing to be sense. It is also contradicted by characters that only use ki that, while they cannot sense the god ki, they can feel the intense pressure created by it, so it is definitely leaking out, they are feeling it, but they cannot "see" it.

Onto that, all beings in the divine bureaucracy are able to sense divine ki and can tell when Beerus is heading their way while normal people cannot. It should be noted that people have not been shown to be able to sense Shin's ki either. A fun thing that does works retroactively because of this is that Goku, upon reaching King Kai's planet, wasn't able to identify who King Kai was and assumed it was the only person who he could find, Bubbles.

There is no evidence to suggest that the Kai's creation is ki based as it is never brought up how they do so in Z. However, in Super, we now know they are specifically Gods of Creation. We have been shown that in order to perform his duties as a God of Destruction, Beerus uses god ki. We also know that Beerus and Shin are linked. With the information we have, and lacking an overt statement either way, it is more reasonable to assume that it would be god ki they use for creation, or is an innate ability as a Kai.

As far as we can tell for Whis, we have no evidence that he has normal ki at all.

@nilok: except there is two huge holes in that whole argument, one vegeta never did any ritual to obtain “god ki”

He achieved ssb and ssg through mastering what whis was teaching him.

Two trunks reached a partial ssb without any ritual to obtain “god ki”

The god ki thing was In the movie only and was pretty much retconned, and it was explained in the golden frieza arc in the manga that ssb is the act of using supersayin while holding in your ki and not letting it leak. Hence the original super sayain god super sayain.

@skrskr: nice tryin to ignore that they turned into ssj blue due to being in seperate dmebsion wiyh immense high gravity similar to ssj3. So without Whis his staff they can't achieve ssj blue.

That is not confirmed. Perhaps it helped, but there was nothing said or shown that backs this statement.

@LeonardoTMNT: they d1idn't gain the ability anywhere else put Wbis his staff so it was clearly shown that they gained in the magic stick. just like ssj3 in a different dimension. you lot are the ones lacking evidence.

feats >>>> statements, something w**ke* over the past several years on the vine, right?

@shenron007: No,Whis told them that their heightened energy was leaking around them,so when they got the energy controlled,we had the first glimpse of Super Saiyan Blue. It was seen again when Goku and Vegeta were training in the field of godly ki. After controlling his ki to stop it from leaking, Vegeta noted that he could move,when initially it was impossible for them to move an inch. That godly ki in super is merely extremely dense ki,which is why the pressure is so immense. When you try to contain such energy and you compress it,the pressure emitter is tremendous compared to when it normally flows. And I think Whis either left the staff on accident,or purposely left it there so that they could make it back.

@tronmest35:

unless someone else achieves ssj blue without being in a different dimension ssj blue remains a lame version of ssj3 as they have the same drawbacks.the one diffrence is that one transfotmation can be done with a living body.

@skrskr: We have no idea how Vegeta gained god ki. We know he didn't do the ritual like Goku, at least we assume he didn't, as he did specially say the next time they do this, the ritual will be done with him. However, the means of Vegeta gaining god ki has been left intentionally vague.

God ki has been referenced several times in the anime, not sure where you got that it was from the movies only.

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@shenron007: U are missing the point. Ssj3 can only be achieved under special circumstances. For example Goku achieved the state when he was dead for seven years, Trunks and Goten can't go ssj3, but Gotenks can. And the only reason why Gotenks achieved it was because Piccolo bought him enough time to awaken the transformation by stalling Super Buu. Dimensions don't constitute a reason for the form, just special circumstances. Even Vegeta after training 3 years in the ROSAT couldn't achieve it so your theory is incorrect

@nilok: what I mean is in the movie they made it seem like it was its own separate set of energy entirely like god of destruction energy, like the ritual was the only thing that could give him this power.

In episode 20 when goku and vegeta clash right after whis instructs them to not let the ki leak from their bodies they accidentally create the ssb aura.

That means vegeta used god ki by only not letting his ki leak from his body

There was nothing given to him, he didn’t acquire anything he only didn’t let the ki leak from his body.

Then they are sent into the “god ki” dimension where they can only move if they don’t let the ki leak from their bodies

Then they train there and when they emerge they both can freely go ssb and ssg vegeta notably without ever having to do the ritual since they trained for months to not let the ki leak from their bodies.

God ki is just using ki a certain way thats not easy to do at all, ssb is going super sayain while not letting ki leak from your body also known as god ki.

Technically following vegetas footsteps anyone could theoretically learn how to use god ki

Which in turn goes back to that using god ki as an excuse for creation techniques

When Kai’s dont naturally have access to god ki since it isn’t something you can easily do without crazy training

They have never been stated to have access to it, they only have been shown to use normal ki.

@skrskr: Then I have to ask, if Vegeta never went through the Super Saiyan God ritual and just uses "compressed" ki to go SSB, how is it that Vegeta does have access to Super Saiyan God in the Broly movie, which is gained from the ritual?

It has been stated multiple times that the Broly movie is part of the anime story and not the manga.

You are explaining Whis' training very well, but does nothing to explain how Vegeta actually gained god ki, as it was shown that him and Goku are on the same level, and Goku had gone through the ritual.

Could you please provide some evidence of the Kais being shown to use normal ki and completely lack god ki? From my readings, it is completely ambiguous.

@nilok: through training lol

Ssg is just using god ki, as ssb is using god ki while going super sayain.

Sometime in the dimension where they learned to go blue they both learned how to freely go ssg also.

No ritual necessary.

I was using the Broly movie as part of my argument, that vegeta can go ssg without ever using the ritual.

We know in the manga he can, and now the movie is making it canon.

What do you mean evidence? The evidence is that they have been never stated to use god ki

We saw in z after supreme kai revealed himself they knew how powerful he was, they could sense his ki he was even punked by goku.

Could you show any 1 piece of eveidence that show the Kai’s use god ki? No because there is none

The only energy source we have seen Kai’s use is ki

@skrskr: I think you are misremembering the interactions with the Supreme Kai.

They were not shown to be able to sense the Supreme Kai's strength, with Krillin stating that he didn't seem tough while Goku and Piccolo intuited that something was up with him. Piccolo himself specifically stepped aside because he realized that he was a Kai. Shin himself notes that of course Piccolo would know that he was a Kai because, like Dende is now, Piccolo, through Kami, was the Earth's god.

I'm assuming this is the scene you are referring to when you say Goku "punked" the Supreme Kai. In actuality, it was Dabura that they were able to sense and use for reference, not the Supreme Kai. There is no scene when the Supreme Kai revealed himself did they know how powerful he was.

You are the one making the claim that the Supreme Kai doesn't use god ki while explicitly being a god, which is why I asked you to provide some evidence. I am saying that due to his position and other factors, it would be reasonable to assume that his abilities are more likely to be god ki due to the related information. I cannot find any evidence either way, which is why I specifically asked you to provide the information that allows you to so clearly state without any hesitation that he only uses normal ki.

@nilok: I’m talking when shin tried to get in the way of goku and vegetas fight, and goku punked him.

You made the claim that the Kai’s use god ki first so you would have to back that wild outlandish claim.

It has never been said they use god ki

The usage of god ki gives ridiculous amps, the Kai’s are super weak

So you find something to back your claim that the Kai’s creation technique is from the usage of god ki

Which doesn’t even make sense as to why goku and vegeta couldn’t do it since they use god ki

You mean this scene?

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This shows nothing about Goku, or anyone for that matter being able to sense how powerful he is.

You are also assuming that any amount of god ki makes you as powerful as a God of Destruction, there is no evidence of that. We know someone as strong as Goku becomes insanely powerful to surprise a God of Destruction, but we have no idea how strong a normal, everyday human would become if they gained god ki.

God ki does make those being more powerful, and for a being who effectively sits around all day and does nothing to be comparable to Imperfect to Semi-Perfect Cell is honestly insane. The Supreme Kais are far from "super weak". Remember, the previous Grand Supreme Kai was able to easy deflect Buff Buu's (whom according to Goku is stronger than Super Buu) attacks with just a shout and turns him into mince meat in an instant. If not for Majin Buu's ability to regenerate from dust, it would be the end for anyone else, even Perfect Cell.

All this shows, as with many other things, is that Shin was unprepared to take the role as the only Supreme Kai.

I raised an objection to you that the Supreme Kai has to use normal ki as it was reasonable to assume that he, like his counterpart, used god ki, as we have no evidence either way to my knowledge.

I am going to ask you one final time, please provide the evidence that allows you to say, without any hesitation, that the Supreme Kai can only use normal ki.

If this is just your personal assumption and belief, then please tell me.

@nilok: there is none, because it hasn’t been stated that he can’t use god ki.

But there is literally 0 points of evidence that he can use god ki.

So yeah my personal beleif since we have absolutely 0 evidence of him being able to use god ki.

Just like there is 0 evidence of gowasu using god ki

Or any of the other linked Supreme Kais

Since you are so condescending please put me in my place by providing one concrete piece of evidence that shows Supreme Kais use god ki, it’s perfectly normal to assume they can’t since they have never been stated to be able to use it.

So please mr. “one final time” you made the claim in post #19 that god ki explained the Kai’s and angels creation techniques

You made the statement now back it up with concrete eveidence

@skrskr: Skrskr, I have told you multiple times that it was an assumption based on him explicit being called a god of creation, being the linked counterpart to Beerus, a god of destruction, and being able to sense god ki.

When Kai’s dont naturally have access to god ki since it isn’t something you can easily do without crazy training

What do you mean evidence? The evidence is that they have been never stated to use god ki

A lack of evidence is not evidence of the contrary, which is why I was pushing for you to backup that statement.

You were stating, as if it was a fact, that the gods of creation in no way use god ki and were disregarding any other ideas on how their creation ability could work.

The creation ability has so far been limited to select groups. There are Dragon Clan Namekians, magic wielders (often demons), Kais, and Angels which are shown to be able to create items from nothing. It is a popular belief at this moment that Dragon Clan Namekians have a link to Zalama, the Dragon God with their shared ability to create Dragon Balls. Generally speaking, creation abilities seem to be limited to Divine and Demonic origins.