Kale vs Toriko

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guleddos

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Berzerk kale vs Toriko.

Morals on.

Fighting area: Indestructible Earth.

Fight to the death.

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guleddos

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Woops wrong place to post this...

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Thedarkpaladin

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Toriko.

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TheDeathstar

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Kale, not even close.

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zoldycklogic

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mrx1122

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Kale

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deactivated-5a2b0053414c5

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Toriko

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MainJP

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Toriko.

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SpitfirePanda

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Kale should take it from scaling to Goku.

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ITouchedTheBoat

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#10  Edited By ITouchedTheBoat

Toriko.

all this time I thought your profile picture was of SSB Goku with a different artist....now I see who it is lol

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Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres

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Brobs

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We don't even know how strong kale is. Toriko take this because he has feats.

By hype? Kale of course.

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Lexus

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Kale in her berserk mode take this.

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RukelnikovFTW

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@brobs: Kale could walk thru Goku's KKH and manhandle him with relative ease, its not just hype.

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JKFallen

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Kale in her berserker form is at the very least above SS2 Caulifla, who could at least go toe to toe with an SS2 Goku that has god ki in him.

In a low, low ball, Kale is above a SS2 Goku, and if a base form Vegeta can kick SS3 Gotenks's butt then Kale wrecks Toriko easy.

High balling, Kale is above SS3 Goku but below the likes of SSB Goku and Vegeta, Android 17, Gohan, etc. She still wtf stomps Toriko anyway.

And if the crossover between Goku, Toriko, and Luffy indicates anything, Buu saga base form Goku could take both of them on no sweat. And at this point in the series, he's dozens if not hundreds of times above that in his BASE.

Kale wrecks.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@jkfallen: The crossover is non canon, and the only thing that indicates is that Toriko, even before learning to honor the food, is on par with SSJ Goku from BoG.

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= kale stomps, by feat toriko,@thedarkpaladin: BOG goku is not canon or other realities, also we do not know his power and is featless, so do not use BOG version goku

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Thedarkpaladin

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@temporary: Kale doesn't have the feats to stomp anyone. At the time of the crossover special's creation, BoG was canon.

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RukelnikovFTW

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@thedarkpaladin: Kale can no sell Goku's KHH and manhandle him, what has Toriko got on her?

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Thedarkpaladin

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@rukelnikovftw: Cool. There's absolutely no proof Goku was going all out during their fight, and considering his nonchalant attitude afterwards, along with his other recent fights as an SSJB, I'm inclined to believe he wasn't.

As for what Toriko has on her, that would be better feats in every category.

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nilok

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#21  Edited By nilok

@thedarkpaladin: She was crushing and shattering Kachi Katchin Steel by walking and yelling.

The arena is made of Kachi Katchin Steel, which is harder than Katchin Steel of Universe 7, the stuff that the Supreme Kai of 7 created to be thrown at Gohan, which is the strongest/hardest metal in Universe 7, to test the Z Sword and ended up breaking it. Kale in her LSSJ state is able to crush and break the Kachi Katchin simply by walking on it and later by simply screaming. That puts Kale a bit higher than multi-mountain.

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kyrees

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@nilok: kachin and any of its variants as of this point has no measurable hardness or toughness only a claim that they are that tough

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Thedarkpaladin

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@nilok: A casual strike from Toriko sent Acacia hurtling around a Saturn-sized planet:

https://imgur.com/a/g82Jd

No one barring the GoDs have demonstrated striking power on that level, and Kale doesn't have any notable physical durability feats.

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nilok

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#24  Edited By nilok

@thedarkpaladin: @kyrees: Find the hardest known metal and make it harder, even if by a 0.1 Mohs. Kachin is most likely something harder than Chromium and tougher than Tungsten.

It should be noted one of the pictures I posted was Goku in the Buu Saga, who is strong enough to destroy a large planet, struggling to hold up a 2x2 meter cube of Kachin. When Kale powers up, she has a 60-80ft pyramid of Kachi Kachin to be torn from the area upwards.

To be entirely fair to Dragon Ball compared to Toriko, Dragon Ball isn't known for its striking feats, it is known for its energy blasts. Of which, Kale walks through a Kamehameha from SSB Goku. We can't say how strong Goku was using doing the blast, be he was at least above SSJ2, as he states he will let out more energy. If we just assume that Goku is as strong as Teen Gohan from the Cell Games (we know he is much stronger at this point), this puts the blast in the star to solar system level.

I think if we want straight striking feats we would have to put Toriko next to Saitama's serious punch.

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kyrees

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#25  Edited By kyrees

@nilok: make it harder by whose definition, the fans not the author ? that's very much on the same vein as fan calcs though this one is even more vague given how rarely things like this are mentioned. sure you can go to the moh scale and go with the bare minimum but any material that is technically a step up or more becomes more vague and prone to error. the moh scale can "safely" establish a kachin's toughness and hardness but it cannot do the same on kata kachin, a material who's only description to date is that it's harder than kachin.

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nilok

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#26  Edited By nilok

@kyrees: I doubt Toriyama or anyone at Toei would explain Kachi Kachin in any detail, as Toriyama often likes to make up stuff as he goes. We should be able to get at least a general idea of at least Kachin and make an educated guess about Kachi Kachin.

We can make some general assumptions of at least Kachin and extrapolate slightly for Kachi Kachin. We know Kachin has to be harder than harden Chromium. Furthermore, unlike Chromium, it does not shatter or flake as we saw it thrown and had no stress from burying itself into the earth. Finally, it is extremely heavy, it probably isn't as massive as Osmium, otherwise that 2 meter block would weighed 45.14 tons. It is probably closer to Tungsten and weighed 38.6 tons. So for normal Kachin, we have a very dense metal, that is harder than Chromium, and as tough or tougher than Tungsten. As it's hardness is higher than Chromium, that possibly puts it close to Chrysoberyl or on the outside Corundum, Cat's-Eye or Ruby.

So, assuming that everything else about Kachi Kachin is the same from normal Kachin, it probably has a hardness close-ish to Ruby. Kachi Kachin may actually be more brittle than normal Kachin, as if you increase something's hardness, such as adding carbon to steel, it becomes more brittle.

Also, I am very glad that Dragon Ball Super is airing at a kid's time slot in Japan right now, because if the area gets damaged in any way *cough* Kale *cough*, having pieces of something that hard would cause anyone sliding on the area to feel like they are sliding against sandpaper, as Corundum is a traditional abrasive. If this was seinen, I could totally see the area looking like a level from Super Meat Boy.

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kyrees

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#27  Edited By kyrees

@nilok: that general assumption for kachi kachin really falls short when you consider that a kachin cube and z-sword were pitted against each other and one was practically broken. by all accounts, the z sword practically has the same properties that kachin cube has and there's no known alloy stated for the z-sword. all of this is still lower than kachin kachin so how can you generally assume a material is that tough when in technicality, kachi kachin is two notches higher than any supposed safe argument to it ?

as for the unnecessary point of area portrayal in correlation to showing time, that's a moot point when animators in japan don't really care for being on point in physics but then again, you are assuming kachi kachin has the same properties with earth minerals and metal.

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jasonhitto

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Kale can even stomp toriko whole verse what make u think toriko alone can beat her lol

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omg not this physical bullshit argument again, beerus finger tap equals planet bust, he literally just tap and a planet explodes, i am sure kale is stronger than that finger tap imao, concrete evidence shows kales physical strength must be stronger than that planet explosion, dont give me ki argument crap, i don care how they do it, beerus did indeed poke and release planet destruction energy, so when beerus poke means planet explosion energy released, so yes kale did demonstrate that kind of power as she is stronger than beerus poke

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kyrees

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#30  Edited By kyrees

@temporary said:

omg not this physical bullshit argument again, beerus finger tap equals planet bust, he literally just tap and a planet explodes, i am sure kale is stronger than that finger tap imao, concrete evidence shows kales physical strength must be stronger than that planet explosion, dont give me ki argument crap, i don care how they do it, beerus did indeed poke and release planet destruction energy, so when beerus poke means planet explosion energy released, so yes kale did demonstrate that kind of power as she is stronger than beerus poke

1. beerus's finger taps has ki in it unless you want to ignore the ring of purple ki after the finger tap

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it destroyed half a planet of unknown size thus putting into question how much power beerus put into it. said planet could have been jupiter sized or mercury sized.

2. kale has never shown anything on physical scale to actually match that finger tap. the stadium she wrecked with her outburst of ki energy or scream isn't planet sized by any estimate nor is it any tougher given how kata kachin has no objective toughness to date (objective being how do you scale it accordingly because king kai's planet actually has a gravity measurement while kata kachin only has a "being stronger than kachin"). you might use the initial spar of the three GoDs as comparison but that would wreck whis's claim on that someone who is stronger than a GoD and jiren one shotted her

3. concrete evidence means actual provable evidence. all you did is assert your own theories are correct and factual when in reality, you are scaling too much to characters that are proven to be quite above nearly everyone by their own teachers. you are practically elevating characters to reach that benchmark when they have done nothing on such state even authorwise.

4. ki planet busting has been done on power levels of first form freeza. physical planet busting has been done on beerus's level. quite a significant difference of power here.

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helloman

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Kale wins.

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Thedarkpaladin

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#32  Edited By Thedarkpaladin

@nilok: Kale walking through SSJB Goku's Kamehameha really says nothing about her durability to physical strikes. Toei has basically ruined the franchise to the point where scaling no longer makes any sense and the significance of SSJB has been diminished greatly since the start of the arc. Killin being able to temporarily push back Blue Goku's Kamehameha is a good example of this.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@temporary: Nice try, but Beerus used Ki manipulation to destroy half of that planet, as Kyrees stated above. It wasn't solely a physical feat.

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nilok

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#34  Edited By nilok

@thedarkpaladin:

It is unfortunate that the writers have done a very poor job of explaining how SSB works. With SSB's superior ki control, Goku can control his output better than his other states. However, comparing Goku vs Krillin and Goku vs Kale is a bit of a false argument, as Goku states that he will be releasing more energy after he has fighting her at SSJ2.

We have no idea how restrained Goku was vs Krillin, but we do know that Goku was above SSJ2 when he went to SSB against Kale, otherwise the statement that he would be releasing more energy after already fighting her as a SSJ2 would be both worthless, and a lie.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@nilok:

It was made pretty clear that Goku used more power as an SSJB than he did as a regular SSJ while fighting Krillin, given the latter's reaction along with statements made by #18 and Gohan. Furthermore, there would really be no point in using a higher transformation if Goku was planning on outputting even less energy than he does as an SSJ or SSJ2. He already mastered SSJ way back in the Cell Saga, and we've seen that he has some control over his more advanced forms during the Black arc, since he was able to hold back as an SSJ3 against Trunks to the point where Black was still superior, yet as we see in the very next episode, could still manhandle him as an SSJ2.

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jasonhitto

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People just butthurt cause a girl can stomp toriko verse lol

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@kyrees: jesus so wt,first his finger physically touch the table, also the fact is he use the finger tap to destroy half a planet, that means his finger is enough to deal that kind of damage, i guess it is ki so it doesnt count, your logic is flawed, ki is just a way to deliver energy, so because it is ki, we should dismiss it right, if that is what you want to say, every fiction can fuck themselves because their feat use energy to achieve so it didnt count, only physical contact will be accepted, so you have street fighters beat cosmic entities if we are going that direction, goku who becomes SSG is certainly stronger than a finger of beerus, kale is enough to give goku SSJ2 trouble when his base form is more or less SSG level ,so you can suck it

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le0nhart

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Toriko solos everyone in the tournament

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kyrees

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#39  Edited By kyrees

@temporary said:

the scene shows actual ki outburst as highlighted by the purple ki. be more correct than the anime then if you think the tap delivered the damage not the ki output.

my logic is flawed when raw physicals in dragonball takes a backseat against powerful ki manipulation that can be released through any means or stored up inside them to increase power ? the manga may have shown two GoDs punching planets apart but the gigantic difference in power between two GoDs brawling and one GoD tapping a table makes any argument of that latter having that tap have that kind of physical power irrelevant.

i think you don't really understand dragonball's core concepts or any anime that goes with that given you went to a rant of f-up every fiction and even more irrelevant rant of street levelers beating cosmic entities(how does the latter connect to dragonbll ?!). this is the rule of this fictional universe, ki manipulation is the bread of everything. as for focusing on certain points of a character to highlight a power, it becomes an irrelevant tale when you are only focusing on that one scene, not on its overall context.

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jasonhitto

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@le0nhart: krillin solos torikoverse with ease

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@kyrees: seriously i do not think you understand anything i have said, in short beerus can finger bust planet with absolute ease, kale is stronger than beerus 0 effort finger, so kale is ridiculously above planet busting no matter in ki attacks or physical attacks, do not give me split durability or their raw power is weak when you have punches that threaten universe and reality itself unintentionally

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nilok

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#42  Edited By nilok

@thedarkpaladin: SSJ3 was brought out to show how powerful Trunk was. It wasn't that Goku was holding back, it was that as a SSJ2, Trunks was in a similar league as Goku's SSJ3, Trunks just perfected SSJ2 to that point.

I don't believe we ever saw Trunks fighting Black as a SSJ2 until he had time to rest and recover in the past. If you remember, Trunks and Mai were happy that they found a can of cat food to share between them. We all know how much food a Saiyan requires to keep their metabolism going with the piles of plates that Goku and Vegeta have after every meal, and with Trunks constantly on the move and no source of stable food, Trunk was possibly sleep deprived, and definitely malnourished.

I guess Black had the best idea on how to weaken a Saiyan while he was still learning his new body, take out their food supply.

A side note, Trunk's timeline with Black would probably be hell for Toriko too as well as there would be little to nothing to eat if Toriko hadn't eaten ANOTHER.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@nilok:

SSJ3 was brought out to show how powerful Trunk was. It wasn't that Goku was holding back, it was that as a SSJ2, Trunks was in a similar league as Goku's SSJ3, Trunks just perfected SSJ2 to that point.

That was how the fight was depicted in the manga. In the anime, Goku caught Trunks sword with a few fingers and knocked him to the floor fairly easily. Since Trunks wasn't absolutely sure if Black was superior to Goku in that form (he said maybe by a little bit), I doubt he was on par with SSJ3 in the anime at least.

I don't believe we ever saw Trunks fighting Black as a SSJ2 until he had time to rest and recover in the past. If you remember, Trunks and Mai were happy that they found a can of cat food to share between them. We all know how much food a Saiyan requires to keep their metabolism going with the piles of plates that Goku and Vegeta have after every meal, and with Trunks constantly on the move and no source of stable food, Trunk was possibly sleep deprived, and definitely malnourished.

I was referring to Black's first fight with Goku as an SSJ2, or perhaps it was SSJ, though the hair and aura point to the former. After watching the scene again, Trunks did make it seem like Black wasn't using his full power during that fight, but he claimed the difference was negligible.

A side note, Trunk's timeline with Black would probably be hell for Toriko too as well as there would be little to nothing to eat if Toriko hadn't eaten ANOTHER.

This is especially true if we're using Toriko from back in part 1 before he learns to honor the food. If I recall, his more powerful techniques required hundreds of thousands of calories just to use.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@nilok:

SSJ3 was brought out to show how powerful Trunk was. It wasn't that Goku was holding back, it was that as a SSJ2, Trunks was in a similar league as Goku's SSJ3, Trunks just perfected SSJ2 to that point.

That was how the fight was depicted in the manga. In the anime, Goku caught Trunks sword with a few fingers and knocked him to the floor fairly easily. Since Trunks wasn't absolutely sure if Black was superior to Goku in that form (he said maybe by a little bit), I doubt he was on par with SSJ3 in the anime at least.

I don't believe we ever saw Trunks fighting Black as a SSJ2 until he had time to rest and recover in the past. If you remember, Trunks and Mai were happy that they found a can of cat food to share between them. We all know how much food a Saiyan requires to keep their metabolism going with the piles of plates that Goku and Vegeta have after every meal, and with Trunks constantly on the move and no source of stable food, Trunk was possibly sleep deprived, and definitely malnourished.

I was referring to Black's first fight with Goku as an SSJ2, or perhaps it was SSJ, though the hair and aura point to the former. After watching the scene again, Trunks did make it seem like Black wasn't using his full power during that fight, but he claimed the difference was negligible.

A side note, Trunk's timeline with Black would probably be hell for Toriko too as well as there would be little to nothing to eat if Toriko hadn't eaten ANOTHER.

This is especially true if we're using Toriko from back in part 1 before he learns to honor the food. If I recall, his more powerful techniques required hundreds of thousands of calories to use.

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kyrees

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#45  Edited By kyrees

@temporary said:

beerus or practically anyone above first form freeza can finger bust or so a planet with the proper usage of ki, not with pure strength. it's just so that beerus is so high in that ladder that his action takes lesser focus or energy that you are confusing his raw physicals ,which is probably high enough to shatter planets given the fight in manga, to his ki manipulation.

you are basing your argument on that one scene when a plethora of other contexts to it would say otherwise. you need to account everything before you can make that claim and you already made a mistake of basing it on a GoD, a benchmark that even the main character has not reached yet and only one character has actually surpassed. why make that comparison on a tiny bit of that benchmark when numerous actual instances of sudden powerup that supposedly break said benchmark ends up being not productive in the long run ? so is angered SSJ2 vegeta a legit stronger than beerus then ?

you are again misreading the exchange between goku and beerus and probably to an extent, beerus and champa. not once did the author imply that their exchanges was on their raw physicals only but on the clash of their ki as a whole. how else that they are not going to use their ki in amping their attacks when they actively use their aura to it ?

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ki equals to strength sorry to bust you

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kyrees

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#47  Edited By kyrees

@temporary said:

ki equals to strength sorry to bust you

sorry to bust me when mastered SSJ1 goku was about to destroy planet earth and SSJ3 goku punched through king kai's planet ? sorry to bust me when practically everyone's finisher is a ki blast, not a ki powered punch ? sorry to bust me when the only physical finishers i remember in the series is a punch that is boosted with a kamehameha which is done by kid goku or a punch that has an accompanying shenron dragon look alike which is done by adult goku ? yeah, you really busted me so hard that it invalidated everything that happened in the manga and older series.

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sorry to bust you, beerus finger destroy a planet, sorry to bust you mastered SSJ1 is all about ki control so he will not accidentally destroy the earth, sorry to bust you SSG goku nearly destroy the universe by clashing his fist,sorry to bust you that ki attacks or punches are useless if the enemy is too strong, sorry to bust you ki attacks are indeed stronger than punches used by a character but punches did indeed able to deal serious damage, the difference is not that large, thats why gohan is able to fuck cell but vegeta ki blast cannot, if you are arguing SSJ1 goku punches do not have the force to destroy planet you are ridiculously wrong, or do you believe split durability which is even more bullshit imao

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TheDeathstar

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What is this physical and ki crap going on here? Increase in ki=increase in physical stat, whether someone outputs it outside, say a blast or uses it within his body makes it no different. Do guys even understand how Dragon Ball works? Even guys like Superman, SS charge their punches within the solar energy or cosmic energy they have, else their punches won't have any effect. Its so stupid having to even explain this.

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kyrees

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#50  Edited By kyrees

@temporary said:

it's very clear now that you don't know how to differentiate ki boosted attacks from raw physical ones ,which doesn't practically exist in dragonball, because you keep spouting attacks that were all practically boosted by ki and insist that a lot of them are raw physical based when a lot of them actually shows context or outright ki outburts but feel free to be more correct than the anime. also, what's the point in dredging up difference in power level when it's common sense in dragonball that the stronger character would be more damaging to the weaker one both ki wise and physical wise ? are you restating common knowledge because you seem to think i forgot it ?! that's really quite amusing coming from you

split durability ? i think you are way over your head in using that term when all my arguments stem from having ki application, not on defense. ridiculously wrong on whose head canon ? yours ? the only point SSJ1 level punches were planet level are from fan calcs, not actual material. like i said, your head canon is superior to that of toriyama. clearly, a fan knows better than the author.