Is SSG, SSB, and MUI all Universal or above?

  • 141 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
Avatar image for zoomspeedblitz
ZoomSpeedBlitz

92

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Just curious.

Avatar image for toratorn
Toratorn

8704

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Yes. And it was this way since BoG saga.

Avatar image for ssgssj4_debater
SSGSSJ4_Debater

523

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

BOG you could argue he’s half universal but he gave Beerus equal force back when Beerus was at universal level attack potency. By ROF it’s not even arguable as Goku and Vegeta both have the power of SSG in Base and can stack SSJ forms and god forms on top. They’re comfortably universal. They could be multi universal by this point tbh.

Avatar image for oreoghoul
Oreoghoul

3395

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

It's a little weird and people have a lot of different takes on the BoG feat. But even if you didn't think SSG vs Beerus demonstrated a somewhat Universal feat, the 10x or 50x Multiplier from SSB pretty much makes it Universal just off scaling alone in my opinion.

Avatar image for revold
Revold

2718

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Ah yes we are back to the legendary "Is SSG Goku Universal" question. Allow me to just copy and paste:

Back in the Battle of the Gods arc, SSG Goku and Beerus first 2 clashes destroyed a planet on screen and was even felt by the Kaios at the Kaioshin Realm. Old Kai first noted that the universe will be annihilated by the third clash, and the narrator also reiterated that it threatens to destroy the universe. Whis later remarked that he wasn't able to stop the fight and that power was capable of destroying the universe. However, Goku managed to nullify the shockwave effects by clashing with Beerus at the perfect angle, saving the universe from destruction.

Thesis argues that Goku is half-responsible for the shockwaves that is capable of destroying the universe, as he must have exerted an equal and opposite force to nullify Beerus's punch. However, this is extremely problematic because of a few reasons:

  1. Traditional laws of physics as we know it do not apply here. The shockwaves, though destroyed nearby planets, should logically destroy Earth first. If you think the shockwave grows stronger as it travels further away, then logically the Kaioshin realm would've been destroyed first. It might be because their punch is so powerful, it wraps spacetime etc. Either way, we can no longer assume that this argument holds true.
  2. Statements can be unknowingly taken out of context. Old Kai might have spoken out of existing knowledge of Beerus at 100%. The Narrator might have just been serving the purpose of recapping what was established by Old Kai. And Whis was probably joking considering he would have stopped Beerus or redo time even if he destroyed a galaxy, let alone the universe itself.

Antithesis: Many characters later in the show are easily a hundred times more powerful than SSG Goku. Yet none of them is able to replicate this feat except for Beerus and Champa, whom were stopped by Whis and Vados. This suggests two things:

  1. It is more probable that Beerus is the one more responsible for the shockwaves because he has actually shown the capacity to do so.
  2. It is unlikely that the shockwaves was able to destroy the universe because Whis did not attempt to stop the fight despite perfectly capable and willing to do so.

Some may rebutt the anti-thesis that Goku has mastered the shockwave nullification, thus his future battles did not cause such a phenomenon. However, other characters who are 50x more powerful (eg. Kefla, Anilaza, Black) have fought each other before. Unless you are saying that every one of them has mastered the same technique, and every one of them decides to hold back for every punch. It almost seems like the multiverse is at mercy of all these everyday fighters. Logically speaking, hitting at the perfect angle isn't a technique that can be mastered anyway.

Thesis 2: Another argument that I've seen is Goku's remark after his first fight against Beerus. He said even with fusion, he couldn't have defeated Beerus, yet SSG Goku seems to stand a chance against him. Thus SSG Goku is stronger than SS Vegito, whom defeated Super Buuhan whom was able to destroy the universe. Again, many of the same problems here:

  1. Goku's remark might have been unknowingly taken out of context. He was clearly speculating about going against 100% Beerus. But as we know later, Beerus barely used 1% against SSG Goku.
  2. SS Kefla was able to defeat SSG Goku while suppressed. You may argue that Goku was fatigued, but mind you that Goku was much stronger then compared to BoG, not to mention Vegito is logically stronger than Kefla due to better compatibility.
  3. Even if we ignore those points, Buuhan's feat isn't universal itself. It collapses dimensions rather than destroying the universe. It is not unlike destroying a pillar of a building, but call yourself building level when it collapses on its own due to it.

Rebuttal: Some may think that BoG SSG Goku was stronger than ToP SSG Goku because he was given the ki of 5 other saiyans.

  1. This is just wrong. It is not as if Goku somehow lost the ki he gained from the ritual. In fact, he clearly said that he absorbed all of it as his own.
  2. Even if this is true, the difference it make is negligible as 4/5 of them were fodder compared to Goku, so a mere 3x increase will guarantee an improvement.

TLDR: SSG Goku is not universal because there are too much contradictions and assumptions that cannot simply be ignored.

Avatar image for juggerman40
Juggerman40

796

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Only Ultra Instinct is Universal.

Avatar image for cromulor
cromulor

3181

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Current opinion, no. The majority of arguments I've seen for why Goku is universal aren't convincing. Scaling at this level is just ridiculous. Goku could be able to destroy the entire Milky Way Galaxy (confirmed by Jaco to exist in DBS) in his base form and still need way more than any known Super Saiyan multiplier offers to scale at a universal level. So forget that imo, scaling doesn't work that well at this point. He either needs a solid feat proving universal level or a solid feat debunking universal level, but I'm sticking with he isn't rather than keep shouting he is in hopes that a feat one day backs me up. Scaling off of canon strength indicators from Super Perfect Cell and Kid Buu, I wouldn't doubt you if you told me Goku could destroy galaxies with powered up attacks but there's a big difference between a galaxy and a universe.

Avatar image for trask10100
Trask10100

290

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Revold and cromulor have basically nailed the point on the head here. While it appears that this feat is cut and dry, the problem lies with all the contradictions that come with the feat. While we have seen similar feats in the Tournament of Power, this all took place in the World of Void which makes measuring anything practically impossible. So limited by the amount of information we have, we have to base everything on this one feat and the battles everyone had since then. So far, as Revold pointed out, there are too many problems to confirm that the feat was due to Goku's strength.

However, I believe the opposite is also true. I believe that since this feat occurred and Goku was involved, some measure of it must have been due to the unique nature of the fight AND to Goku's strength. But how much? It's too hard to tell because the feat itself doesn't make sense. The scaling is too big for natural multipliers, the feat is too massive to compare to previous feats, and the fact that Beerus was in it makes it very hard to give Goku much credit. Buuuuuuut now that UI and MUI are confirmed at or near God of Destruction level, THOSE levels at least I think can be comfortably set at universal feat. Even if SSG wasn't enough to create this universal warping effect, UI and especially MUI SHOULD be able to pull this off, given how close in scaling it's come to Belmod. Even if he was the weakest GoD, it still puts them on the same level relatively.

Are there other ways this is possible? I believe so. For instance, Buuhan (filler) was said to threaten the universe with his unique warping ability. My belief has always been that with dense enough concentration of ki, warping of space becomes commonplace. Or at the very least, a specific application of extremely strong ki creates the warping effect. Buu's Vice Shout, Buuhan's more powerful version (filler), and perhaps even a clash between SSG level fighters could cause this unique warping effect. Now, if it IS warping instead of physical force threatening the universe, this makes much more sense. That way, it's not an ability easily learned or repeated, though it is possible for higher level of ki abilities if applied correctly. This way, it wouldn't have to have the energy to destroy the universe, only the ability to warp space on a massive scale. This too would explain why the shockwaves from the clash don't obey natural laws and get stronger as they echo outward. Also, when Toppo warped the World of Void with his Hakai attack, this could have been another instance of that. This would help explain the gap between levels (making it much smaller), explain why it hasn't happened since (it's a unique application of ki, not simply a level of power), and why it was stated to threaten to destroy the universe (because it was a tearing of space, it was very possible).

So, the final analysis? The feat appears to be possible, but only if you assume a few things and ignore some contradictions. Furthermore, while my theory is plausible, it's not confirmed. So my final verdict for now is...most likely not SSG, SSB, or SSBKKx20. UI is definitely nearing the possibility regardless of which theory is true, and MUI is almost a guarantee.

Avatar image for rukelnikovftw
RukelnikovFTW

7315

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Kefla said she could one shot a universe... She may be more poweful than MUI Goku but they should still be in the same ballpark.

Avatar image for jaakor
jaakor

690

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

SSG Goku,at the very least,from his fight against beerus, can bust half the universe with a charged energy attack judging from the universe busting ball that beerus nullified. He HAS to be multi Galaxy++ at LEAST to play a part in a universe threatening fight, their fist bump sent shockwaves all the way to the realm of the kais which isn't even in the universe.

Beerus was also massively holding back as this noted that Vegeta and Goku in ssjB were far below him

And Power levels are not linear in Dragon ball,never have been. A 2* multiplier doesn't imply your stats increase by 2, only the kaioken technique follows this

Average humans have a PL of 5, roshi with a PL under 400 took out the moon and other times the stat gap has been closer despite the PL gap. So using PL super Saiyan multipliers isn't legit

Don't forget the PL multiplier of charged attacks too

As for stronger guys than him,not blowing up the universe, collateral damage can't be used to debunk this,its as crazy as saying that because their clothes don't vaporize that they are throwing building potency blasts. It's attack potency and it cuts accross all fiction.

And beerus doesn't actually care if he blows the universe in his fight,when he faced champa, the angels didn't stop their fight until they lost regard for the two universes, so their case is more of non-challance than ki control.

Ssjg is probably half universal at max Power

But blue,UI and up should be,in potency at least

Avatar image for mainjp
MainJP

7752

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

None of them is universal.

Avatar image for rukelnikovftw
RukelnikovFTW

7315

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mainjp said:

None of them is universal.

So, Kefla > MUI Goku?

Avatar image for mainjp
MainJP

7752

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13  Edited By MainJP
@rukelnikovftw said:
@mainjp said:

None of them is universal.

So, Kefla > MUI Goku?

Obligatory *I feel like I can eat a horse*

How would Kefla know how much power would be needed to take out a universe?

Avatar image for scotchbear
Scotchbear

2321

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

MUI is easily universal

Ssj gogeta can swat away dimensions lol

Avatar image for adm1ralsnackbar
Adm1ralSnackbar

334

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Hes not even star level in these forms.

Avatar image for rukelnikovftw
RukelnikovFTW

7315

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By RukelnikovFTW

@mainjp said:
@rukelnikovftw said:
@mainjp said:

None of them is universal.

So, Kefla > MUI Goku?

Obligatory *I feel like I can eat a horse*

How would Kefla know how much power would be needed to take out a universe?

Same way Cell knew he could blow up the solar system.

Also Toriyama has always used those viewing fights to comment on them, and Roshi said "Not even Goku would survive if he gets hit".

EDIT: Tbh I DO think Kefla is the most powerful character in the TOP.

Power alone I rank her above Goku and Jiren, she never took damage, not even from Omen Goku's KHH

Avatar image for jaakor
jaakor

690

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Judging by;

Akira's interview on beerus destroying the kaioshin realm and old Kai pointing out that fat Buu being stronger then he was 75 million years ago. And that super buu is far above fat Buu and equal with gotenks, who is much weaker than base Vegeta (From both the copy Vegeta arc and the ROSAT feat)

Add this to all the universe threatening statements they made,and keeping in mind that the entire DBZ universe consists of the mortal universe, other word,the kaioshin realm,which were all under threat from ssjG and heavily suppressed beerus with their punches,and their energy struggle actually was about to bust it all until beerus stopped it

SsjB is the absolute minimum you can go tbh,

Avatar image for omega_kai
Omega_kai

3205

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18  Edited By Omega_kai

@scotchbear: Is that a spoiler from the movie?

If that is, learn to spoiler block please out of courtesy for others.

Avatar image for arthur_morgan
Arthur_Morgan

2427

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#19  Edited By Arthur_Morgan

@revold: first form frieza casualy destroyed planet vegeta , an infinity amount of times stronger broly went on a rampage shooting ki blast everywhere not even country level.

here , i destroyed all of your point with one sentence.

you actualy think they gonna show these shockwaves every fuckin time?

how long does dragonball run? and you ppl still dont get it.

Avatar image for revold
Revold

2718

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@revold: first form frieza casualy destroyed planet vegeta , an infinity amount of times stronger broly went on a rampage shooting ki blast everywhere not even country level.

here , i destroyed all of your point with one sentence.

you actualy think they gonna show these shockwaves every fuckin time?

how long does dragonball run? and you ppl still dont get it.

So what's your point? Shockwaves and collateral damage are not a good indicator of their attack potency? Yea i think so too

Avatar image for arthur_morgan
Arthur_Morgan

2427

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@revold: thats my point.

you have weak characters doing the most and characters who are thousands and millions of times stronger doing nothing.

today toriyama commented on how he doesnt like fighting that much on the jump festa , no wonder we barely get feats.

Avatar image for shintoki
Shintoki

767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@revold: @arthur_morgan:

well......keep in mind that tori was and still is a gag artist in the core and a martial art fan and that is it

if you go back to DB when martial arts were relevant you would notice that they barely make sense and the stuff they show look like a joke be it super powers or not

_______________

and the shockwaves are not a physical feat < the shockwaves potency only accelerated by the distance from its home of origin which it took a minute and half to become planetary level < it will be a long time before it even threatens the universe lad

the kaioshin was most likely referring to the shockwaves point of origin rather than the shockwaves

and it was SSG boosted by the ritual whose multipler is at minimum is 300 and at highest 3000 lad

depending of which multiplying process it follows to lend goku energy < does the saiyans multiply their energies par each and then lent it to goku or multiply it as a whole and that is a SPECIFIC point of time and form whose power is not even that of goku

thing is < BOG arc feats cannot be claimed by goku since it was the power of others/beerus

Avatar image for helloman
Helloman

30115

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

All are universal.

Avatar image for arthur_morgan
Arthur_Morgan

2427

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#24  Edited By Arthur_Morgan

@shintoki: your are right about one thing , that the shockwave got stronger the further ot went, everything else is literaly out of your A$$.

> it will be a long time before it threatens the universe lad

threatens the universe with with the first shockwave.

the old kaioshin said at best 3 shockwaves and the universe turns into empty space.

hahahahahah, ssj 3 is already x400 base.

how you come up with minimum 300?

and do want to tell me ssjg goku is less than 10 times stronger than ssj3 buu saga goku at max? when the same goku said not even fusion got a chance?

lmao , think before you write.

how can one be so wrong hahaha.

Avatar image for shintoki
Shintoki

767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#25  Edited By Shintoki

@arthur_morgan said:

@shintoki: your are right about one thing , that the shockwave got stronger the further ot went, everything is literaly out of your A$$.

>it will be a long time before it threatens the universe

threatens the universe with with the first shockwave.

the old kaioshin said at best 3 shockwaves and the universe turns into empty space.

hahahahahah, ssj 3 is already x400.

how you come up with minimum 300?

and do want to tell me ssjg goku is less than 10 times stronger than ssj3 buu saga goku?

the goku who said not even vegetto could beat him?

lmao , think before you write.

No

it was almost 2 minutes before the shockwaves reached a level able to destruct the planet <

fun fact < the earth was not effected and neither were the stars

_________

God ki =/= ki < cant believe people still confuse those

you should take upon your advice

its Six saiyans lenting their energies as SSB to Goku < confirmed by toriyama interview stating the ritual boost the SSG by the power of others not just goku

i know its hard but its not hard and that was the lowball multiply since we dont know which multiplying process the ritual work with

does the multipliers work par each and multiply each person energy then lent said energy to Goku Or multiply all of their energy then lent it to goku

it is a bit tricky but the latter is more consistent with the TV continuity since of the SSB kaioken nonsense and the lenting process is unexplained in the interviews lad

Avatar image for arthur_morgan
Arthur_Morgan

2427

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#26  Edited By Arthur_Morgan

what? how you know that?

fact is the third shockwave would have destroyed everything in the universe.

also you said yourself the shockwave got stronger the further it went thats why earth wasnt much effected.

so it doesnt matter.

just stop acting you wrote the episode.

wtf are on about?

yes god ki=/= ki and?

and yes i and every1 else saw goku doing a ritual with the others.

how does that change the fact that he absorbed the power and still to this day can use that power? he even can transform to ssg or do you want to tell me current ssg is a diffrent one?

you do realise how stupid that sounds?

the last part of your post doesnt even make sense.

what is hard? the fact that it cant be minimum x300 when ssj3 is already x400?

how is that hard to understand?

and why does the way the multpier work even matter here?

does it change the fact that beerus and goku would have destroyed everything in the universe woth 3 shockwaves? no.

like what is even your argument?

you dont make sense at all.

Avatar image for shintoki
Shintoki

767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#27  Edited By Shintoki

@arthur_morgan said:

what? how you know that?

fact is the third shockwave would have destroyed everything in the universe.

also you said yourself the shockwave got stronger the further it went thats why earth wasnt much effected.

so it doesnt matter.

just stop acting you wrote the episode.

wtf are on about?

yes god ki=/= ki and?

and yes i and every1 else saw goku doing a ritual with the others.

how does that change the fact that he absorbed the power and still to this day can use that power? he even can transform to ssg or do you want to tell me current ssg is a diffrent one?

you do realise how stupid that sounds?

the last part of your post doesnt even make sense.

what is hard? the fact that it cant be minimum x300 when ssj3 is already x400?

how is that hard to understand?

and why does the way the multpier work even matter here?

does it change the fact that beerus and goku would have destroyed everything in the universe woth 3 shockwaves? no.

like what is even your argument?

you dont make sense at all.

watching the show made me know that .....amazing right

You have zero evidence that it would have specially when the shockwaves ceased off proving to be temporal

still means that it will be longggggg before it reach a universal level meaning it is not a universal feat because of its overtime process

i can act however i want < triggered Lol

then stop comparing SSIII with SSG when they multiply different ki

good........and

by power < you would be referring to god ki and to that i would respond with : anyone with half a brain knows goku can use god ki since ROF

God ki =/= SSG and how did you figure out that goku still use God ki till now! < amazing ROFL

technically they are the same SSG just one is not powered by the ritual thus the energy sharing process is not present while the other is

you tell me

God ki =/= ki < still confusing those two i see and i suppose you think SSIII is stronger than SSB because it has a higher multiplier ROFL

you tell me

still no proof they would < IN before arguments by statements

neither do you lad < you could say we are in a different level of existence with me in a higher level ROFL

jokes aside: just watch a video of their shockwaves since the start and calculate the time for when a planet shows to be destructed lad

The Shockwaves ceased off once beerus/goku fist clashing was cancelled

do not confuse god ki with ki or SSG

dont use statements as arguments otherwise you have no argument

lad

Avatar image for arthur_morgan
Arthur_Morgan

2427

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

how do i have zero evidence when the old kaioshin observing the fight tells us whats gonna happen?

>old kaioshin says one more shockwave and the universe goes boom

>you say no just becouse

>im triggered

ok lol.

wtf are you talking about , holy shit.

if you think that way that why the fuck did you even bring up the numbers for the multiplier?

if x300 in god ki is more than x400 in normal ki than how the fuck did you get this number?

literaly out of your A$$.

goku absorbed the power that he got from the ritual , are you slow ?

he still can go ssjg becouse he still got that power.

yes ssj3 got higher multiplier than ssb becouse ssb is ssj version of ssjg.

so its a 50x boost.

but the reason ssb is stronger than ssj3 is becouse its used on ssjg which is stronger than ssj3.

if ssjg goku would use ssj3 the same way he went „super saiyn“ on ssjg than he would be>>ssb.

but it he cant do such thing.

facts:

>goku absorbed the ssjg power

>old kaioshin said 3 shockwaves and boom.

your A$$:

>no , becouse i say so.

>current ssjg is weaker than BoG, ignoring that he absorbed the power.

>pulling numbers out of my A$$.

Avatar image for shintoki
Shintoki

767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

how do i have zero evidence when the old kaioshin observing the fight tells us whats gonna happen?

>old kaioshin says one more shockwave and the universe goes boom

>you say no just becouse

>im triggered

ok lol.

wtf are you talking about , holy shit.

if you think that way that why the fuck did you even bring up the numbers for the multiplier?

if x300 in god ki is more than x400 in normal ki than how the fuck did you get this number?

literaly out of your A$$.

goku absorbed the power that he got from the ritual , are you slow ?

he still can go ssjg becouse he still got that power.

yes ssj3 got higher multiplier than ssb becouse ssb is ssj version of ssjg.

so its a 50x boost.

but the reason ssb is stronger than ssj3 is becouse its used on ssjg which is stronger than ssj3.

if ssjg goku would use ssj3 the same way he went „super saiyn“ on ssjg than he would be>>ssb.

but it he cant do such thing.

facts:

>goku absorbed the ssjg power

>old kaioshin said 3 shockwaves and boom.

your A$$:

>no , becouse i say so.

>current ssjg is weaker than BoG, ignoring that he absorbed the power.

>pulling numbers out of my A$$.

statements are statements < Boohan is omnipotent / Boohan attack was gonna destroy the universe / second form freiza is able to destroy the universe / vegito is stronger than omnipotence lol...........no

_____________

because statements means nothing without a feat back up LOL

____________

you seemed like it with that attitude and still seem like it but if you are not then fine

____________

says the one using headcanon

the ritual is the others sharing their energies with goku < confirmed by toriyama and the process itself is not the power up

___________

i simply used an equivalent of them having the same BL then multiply it by their SSB and them lenting said power to goku

___________

so?......and what of it

if goku can use SSG because he has god ki then what of it?

____________

Headcanon

SSB is Super saiyan with God ki

the power being God ki and not the form itself

the show never implied that goku can fuse forms

_____________

No figures sherlock < obviously the multiplier is the same since its SS just with god ki

_____________

again.........that is headcanon

SSB is NOT SS fused with SSG < this is simply debunked by the fact that / vegeta got it without having SSG first and there are other debunks but this is enough but just for measures

while fighting frieza goku was using SBG which is basically God ki base form and then transformed to SSB with him referring to the power of SSG with SS rather than SS and SSG being in one form

_____________

Headcanon

beerus stated that the power is simply still burning inside of goku / his body was a prodigy for not losing that level of power immediately after losing that form < other than that.........nothing

and that would be God ki

__________

there were four clashes so debunked there

___________

having God ki means nothing as it is confirmed that SSG is inbetween Base form with god ki or SBG in other terms and SSB

SSG with ritual =/= SSG without ritual

if you think that someone using SSG would be as powerful as another who would use it with the ritual boosted by others powers then.......what can i say

you clearly are beyond help

Avatar image for arthur_morgan
Arthur_Morgan

2427

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#30  Edited By Arthur_Morgan

@shintoki: lmao.

some evil motherfucker saying hes omnipotent becouse hes the strongest is not the same as a reliable character saying whats gonna happen while observing a fight.

you are stupid.period.

there were only 2 clashes with the shockwave and the third one was stopped by goku.

what? SSG is SSG ritual or not.

the ritaul is just a method to get it fast.

not to mention, Toriyama said the boost is depending on the receiving saiyan.

so if goten does the ritual with the same ppl only switch goku with goten than ssjg goten would not be as strong as ssjg goku.

dude , learn to make sense than come back.

everything else you said literaly doesnt add anything to your original argument.

Avatar image for shintoki
Shintoki

767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@shintoki: lmao.

some evil motherfucker saying hes omnipotent becouse hes the strongest is not the same as a reliable character saying whats gonna happen while observing a fight.

you are stupid.period.

there were only 2 clashes with the shockwave and the third one was stopped by goku.

what? SSG is SSG ritual or not.

the ritaul is just a method to get it fast.

not to mention, Toriyama said the boost is depending on the receiving saiyan.

so if goten does the ritual with the same ppl only switch goku with goten than ssjg goten would not be as strong as ssjg goku.

dude , learn to make sense than come back.

everything else you said literaly doesnt add anything to your original argument.

statements are statements <

you dismiss a character stating their level of power because..... they are evil and an other because not

no < this is a biased logic and you simply have to accept that statements are hyperboles

________

it was Four

Loading Video...

although i suppose you could interpret the scene inbetween the second and fourth as just an extended scene of the second

either way it proves that the statement was wrong

____________

Yes < it is a ritual to get SSG fast but you should keep in mind that it does not change the fact that it is same method saiyans use to power up when not using it for SSG

_____________

no

Is it possible that other Saiyans will be able to become [Super Saiyan] God in the future?

Of course. However, strength will vary depending on the battle power of the Saiyan who becomes [Super Saiyan] God.

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?

I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

toriyama stated that the strength of the super saiyan god will be depending of their Battle power < battle power is power level numbers in case you are a casual

when asked about whether saiyans will transform to SSG in the future

this has nothing to do with the ritual

but this does

stated that the SSG ritual does borrow the others energies/power and that goku thinks it is unfair / he has god ki by that point so SSG would be pointless since goku will not be using it with the others power

______________

that does not make sense <

if goten has a BL of 2 thousand

and he borrowed the power of others who each have 9 thousand BL equally then goten would have that level of BL combined

________________

says the guy who tried to use the answer for whether other saiyans such as vegeta will be able to use SSG in the future to something related to goku who used the ritual

ok

____________

OG argument is what is written above

the shockwaves were not a threat to the universe and the statements were hyperboles

SSG with the ritual was boosted and it was contributed by beerus as well since toriyama himself stated that goku was almost as half powered as beerus

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/

_____________

thing is

DB fans will never stop using BOG feats same way UI goku will always be mentioned since they will always try to wank goku when the he cant even survive lazers/planetary explosions

Avatar image for arthur_morgan
Arthur_Morgan

2427

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

how the fuck is that statement hyperbole when we saw the planets in the universe being destroyed.

did you see buu doing something even close to an omnipotent?

one is just boasting and the other looking at a fight and telling us how it is.

you are putting two compeltly diffrent statements into the same context.

Toriyama >>>> you.

the ritual is not simply putting the 6 saiyans power together.

lmao.

did you just use toriyama‘s interview about ssjg goku and beerus‘s power?

that was before even a series was planned.

the ritual boosting ssjg was never mention nor implied.

get that shit back in your A$$.

try again.

Avatar image for jaakor
jaakor

690

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@arthur_morgan: ignore him, the moment he claimed BOG SSG Goku was above the current Goku I didn't bother, it's obviously a troll

Avatar image for shintoki
Shintoki

767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34  Edited By Shintoki

@arthur_morgan said:

how the fuck is that statement hyperbole when we saw the planets in the universe being destroyed.

did you see buu doing something even close to an omnipotent?

one is just boasting and the other looking at a fight and telling us how it is.

you are putting two compeltly diffrent statements into the same context.

Toriyama >>>> you.

the ritual is not simply putting the 6 saiyans power together.

lmao.

did you just use toriyama‘s interview about ssjg goku and beerus‘s power?

that was before even a series was planned.

the ritual boosting ssjg was never mention nor implied.

get that shit back in your A$$.

try again.

someone is playing it as if they were not wrong about the shock numbers and no

We saw Only One planet and some asteroids.......no < this might be shocking but the universe is hundreds of billions light years away while a planet is infinitely smaller than that

______________

lad that beats me

never saw someone blow up a moon beside roshi yet people complaint about other characters and how they should be above roshi because PIS/power scales but meh

and considering at the time it was only one universe/afterlife........i suppose that was probable but not a certain arguments for said persons

technically they are both observant of the fights with Boo knowing what it says considering it is its own power unlike an outsider observant such as the others

so you are right!.....boo statements has more credibility as the one causing the feat rather than someone who is not

_______________

pssss....this might shock you!

but DOTA is a thing < thats the death of the author if you dont get it and that means authors can be wrong <

of course < this is not that particular case considering there is no contrary factors to the author statements since the basis is already in the show

nice to see your evidence

saiyans using the same method they use to lend energy as a ritual < checked

saiyans transforming to SSB before lending said energy to the SSG < checked

author confirming that there is a borrowing of energy from the others< yep

and i didnt get to comprehend what you were trying to state.....are you trying to imply that i cant use the words of the author

_______________

technically speaking the BOG film is connected to the ROF film who is a continuation of the F manga which is considered a part of the DBS manga but i suppose you could say that the statement was retconned considering the manga had its own version of BOG

so.........yeah < i can use the beerus/goku statement but feel free to disregard it since this is the TV version lad

_____________

technically it was implied and already posted the evidence but keep trying to appeal to ignorance

if by mention < you mean stated then the author explicitly stated it

__________

you can keep reposting try again/insults but at the end of the day only one person has no arguments and that is you

farewell lad

Avatar image for shintoki
Shintoki

767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

ROFL

wankers are triggered and resorting to strawmans as generic as it is and ironically said by the guy who thinks Goku Post BOG was stronger at base form ........no

the only thing im trolling are your delusions so you are not wrong lad

Avatar image for trask10100
Trask10100

290

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Just to clarify what is being discussed here, the argument is whether or not SSG and the universal threatening clash was indeed a universal clash. Here's what we know:

Goku absorbed the collective power of 6 Super Saiyans, which highballed equals about x300 base form Goku. This ki is then amplified by an unknown use of it, most likely a conversion to god ki that makes it much more potent and powerful. For instance, a multiplier of x10 would take this collective energy and push it to 3000x, well over previous forms. In fact, even a multiplier as small as x2 would fit the criteria, as it would be stronger than SS3.

Goku fought in this Ritual SSG until it ran out, at which point he continued to battle at this level despite having lost the ritual power. This means he grew stronger during the fight and his new level of power allowed him to match Beerus with SS alone. Until the ToP happened, we did not know if he could reach the SSG form again without help, though it was heavily implied too.

Goku attained SSB, which was stated to be a SSG who had gone SS, so an implied x50 on top of whatever multiplier SSG was at. Then Kaio Ken, and so on.

SSG was confirmed to be a level of power Goku could attain on his own in the ToP and that it was stronger than SS3. However, it was not confirmed if this form was "stronger" than the previous use of it, Ritual SSG. However, by logical explanation, it makes sense that it is. If Goku attained a near SSG level of power in his base form on his own, and the fact that he needed this form to go SSB in the first place, it would only make sense that the multiplier of SSG was stacked on top of that new level of power.

Now for the shockwaves. While all of the shockwaves were devastating, they had very unique properties that need to be clarified.

  1. Despite being in near proximity to Earth, it did not receive much damage at all.
  2. It destroyed far off planetoids.
  3. The shockwaves grew stronger the farther they went away.
  4. Old Kai stated that the shockwaves would destroy the universe by the third blow.
  5. The shockwaves were seen as far away as the Supreme Kai's world.
  6. These shockwaves were result of full power ki amplified punches, not regular strikes.
  7. By logical conclusion, Beerus alone could not have been responsible for the all of the energy in the shockwave, especially since Goku was able to match that level of blow by the third strike.
  8. It is unknown if the shockwaves would have destroyed things via physical energy in the shockwaves or by some dimensional tear effect. The result is the same, but the level of energy in the attack would differ greatly as a result.
  9. Beerus was able to destroy the final shockwave inducing attack by himself via full power, most likely a Hakai of some sort.

Using this information, we can conclude the following facts: Whether or not the level of energy in the blow was universal level of not, the result was the same and Goku was providing a solid chunk of that clash. Technically, this means the feat is a universal level feat, regardless of how much energy was in it. However, this means we cannot conclude definitively that Goku himself is universal, as while he is CAPABLE of this level of destruction, if he cannot control such an attack and repeat it, then it is not within his capability to do so willingly. Also, since we do not know the nature of the shockwaves themselves, we cannot assume anything about them.

So you see, we've hit a weird area with this feat. Goku is capable of threatening the universe with his attacks, hands down. But does this technically make him universal? If he doesn't have the raw power to destroy it outright and can only do it via dimensional tearing, for example, would you consider that a Hax ability or universal buster status? That's really a judgement call.

So both answers are kind of correct. Goku is capable of destroying the universe, there really is no debate to be had here. This feat happened and it can't be ignored. But we also cannot jump to conclusions and say that Goku has the raw power to do so, since the shockwaves, Earth's status, and nature and distance of the attack suggest otherwise. So, if you were to do a calculation for how much energy Goku had in his body, the level of energy needed to destroy the universe (whatever that is) would NOT be the answer. Probably not even close, like a ridiculously small fraction of it. Thus, he's technically not a universe buster.

So my final answer for SSG Goku is: Universal Buster with Hax, Galaxy Buster (most likely) in raw power. That's the only thing we can safely say, otherwise we'd be making assumptions.

Avatar image for shintoki
Shintoki

767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#37  Edited By Shintoki

@trask10100 said:

Just to clarify what is being discussed here, the argument is whether or not SSG and the universal threatening clash was indeed a universal clash. Here's what we know:

Goku absorbed the collective power of 6 Super Saiyans, which highballed equals about x300 base form Goku. This ki is then amplified by an unknown use of it, most likely a conversion to god ki that makes it much more potent and powerful. For instance, a multiplier of x10 would take this collective energy and push it to 3000x, well over previous forms. In fact, even a multiplier as small as x2 would fit the criteria, as it would be stronger than SS3.

Goku fought in this Ritual SSG until it ran out, at which point he continued to battle at this level despite having lost the ritual power. This means he grew stronger during the fight and his new level of power allowed him to match Beerus with SS alone. Until the ToP happened, we did not know if he could reach the SSG form again without help, though it was heavily implied too.

Goku attained SSB, which was stated to be a SSG who had gone SS, so an implied x50 on top of whatever multiplier SSG was at. Then Kaio Ken, and so on.

SSG was confirmed to be a level of power Goku could attain on his own in the ToP and that it was stronger than SS3. However, it was not confirmed if this form was "stronger" than the previous use of it, Ritual SSG. However, by logical explanation, it makes sense that it is. If Goku attained a near SSG level of power in his base form on his own, and the fact that he needed this form to go SSB in the first place, it would only make sense that the multiplier of SSG was stacked on top of that new level of power.

Now for the shockwaves. While all of the shockwaves were devastating, they had very unique properties that need to be clarified.

  1. Despite being in near proximity to Earth, it did not receive much damage at all.
  2. It destroyed far off planetoids.
  3. The shockwaves grew stronger the farther they went away.
  4. Old Kai stated that the shockwaves would destroy the universe by the third blow.
  5. The shockwaves were seen as far away as the Supreme Kai's world.
  6. These shockwaves were result of full power ki amplified punches, not regular strikes.
  7. By logical conclusion, Beerus alone could not have been responsible for the all of the energy in the shockwave, especially since Goku was able to match that level of blow by the third strike.
  8. It is unknown if the shockwaves would have destroyed things via physical energy in the shockwaves or by some dimensional tear effect. The result is the same, but the level of energy in the attack would differ greatly as a result.
  9. Beerus was able to destroy the final shockwave inducing attack by himself via full power, most likely a Hakai of some sort.

Using this information, we can conclude the following facts: Whether or not the level of energy in the blow was universal level of not, the result was the same and Goku was providing a solid chunk of that clash. Technically, this means the feat is a universal level feat, regardless of how much energy was in it. However, this means we cannot conclude definitively that Goku himself is universal, as while he is CAPABLE of this level of destruction, if he cannot control such an attack and repeat it, then it is not within his capability to do so willingly. Also, since we do not know the nature of the shockwaves themselves, we cannot assume anything about them.

So you see, we've hit a weird area with this feat. Goku is capable of threatening the universe with his attacks, hands down. But does this technically make him universal? If he doesn't have the raw power to destroy it outright and can only do it via dimensional tearing, for example, would you consider that a Hax ability or universal buster status? That's really a judgement call.

So both answers are kind of correct. Goku is capable of destroying the universe, there really is no debate to be had here. This feat happened and it can't be ignored. But we also cannot jump to conclusions and say that Goku has the raw power to do so, since the shockwaves, Earth's status, and nature and distance of the attack suggest otherwise. So, if you were to do a calculation for how much energy Goku had in his body, the level of energy needed to destroy the universe (whatever that is) would NOT be the answer. Probably not even close, like a ridiculously small fraction of it. Thus, he's technically not a universe buster.

So my final answer for SSG Goku is: Universal Buster with Hax, Galaxy Buster (most likely) in raw power. That's the only thing we can safely say, otherwise we'd be making assumptions.

technically Six SSGSS since SS + God ki = SSGSS

No Caption Provided

which would be the multiplier you stated it amplified by god ki < the only issue is that we dont know how different god ki to ki in terms of power

___________

technically he lost the form not the power which merged with goku confirmed by the author himself stating that goku absorbed the power

No Caption Provided

Note: goku only absorbed the collective power that turned to ki by that point since he was not using God ki and since the power was borrowed so...........it would ran out eventually lad

evidence: the others were able to sense goku < so no god ki / all borrowed energies have a TL lad

___________

false

No Caption Provided

Goku is referring to God ki which is associated with SSG

it is a saiyan with the power of an SSG as a Super saiyan < not an actual God like an SSG and just a saiyan with SSG power as an SS

and a re statement of the point

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

and that is it < read it........it state that goku and vegeta can use THE POWER of a GOD LILKE in BASE FORM!

No Caption Provided

Vegeta and Goku were not able to use God ki till Post Whis Rosat training in ROF and whis even confirms it! so God Ki SSJ goku Pre ROF is nonsense

Goku Pre ROF was only using the collective power absorbed in his body from the form to fight beerus

......not enough evidence that SSGSS is just SS with god ki some might claim stupidly so then!

No Caption Provided

a DBS special cover in a V jump magazine confirmed that SS rose is SS with god ki applied to it

and what is SSR.......

No Caption Provided

zamasu confirms for us that SSR is simply SSB but for true Gods < and what is SSR....< SS with god ki.......so shuuush goku does not fuse forms!

theory: SSGSS is SSG fused with SS < debunked

__________________

SSGSS is confirmed stronger than SSG < considering the difference between base form and SSGSS is a multiply by Fifty <

No Caption Provided

stating that the ritual SSG is weaker than the an SSG weaker than SSGSS is literal wanking / logical contradiction lad

and stating that there is no implication of a difference when only the ritual version has healing/absorption powers and the borrowing thing is a bit retarded

______________

the final shockwave was not a shockwave < it was a dimensional tear which is more powerful than the shockwaves since goku failed at countering it and beerus had to use his fullpower to nullify it

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

same dude who was cancelling the shockwaves by matching beerus strength failed at cancelling the dimensional tear! proving that beerus is the major reason why the shockwaves were a thing in the first place since goku was trying to match his striking power since the first clash lad

and Old Kai statements were proven to be nonsense like many other of his statements so dont use it

.....................................

______

finally < i would conclude that goku at that point of time with the ritual boost was more than likely Just a Multi star buster at best considering beerus is a casual star buster

Avatar image for trask10100
Trask10100

290

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@shintoki: You bring up some good evidence for the SSB from base form, but it just can't be true. There is literally not enough of a gap for that to work.

If SSB is a x50 from base form, than what are SS, SS2, and SS3? Just SS form without the god ki? That would make sense except for the fact that Goku constantly powers up to SS after fighting in his base form. Goku is using the same SS forms as always, only they're massively stronger then ever because yes, his base form is as strong as SSG. I totally agree with that, there's no debate his new base form is ridiculously powerful now.

But the problem lies with multipliers. If Goku uses SS forms all the time after base form, why bother? His base form is already more powerful than the SS forms entirely. But he uses them anyways. And he always appears stronger when he does. For instance, Vegeta facing off with Cabba in the U6 Tournament. He fought in base form, and then in SS form. And THEN in SSB form. He got progressively stronger each time, proving that the SS forms do indeed stack on top of his base form. So then, what would the multiplier for SSB be then? SS already has the x50 slot (more like 87.5, but just to make a point), SS2 is twice that, and SS4 is 4 times THAT. So bare minimum, SS3 is 400x his new base form. If SSB really was just a SS form off his new base form that already has god ki, it cannot possibly be just a 50x multiplier.

Either he is becoming weaker when he transforms into Super Saiyan forms or he can choose when to merge god ki into his forms to create SSG and SSB. And if that is the case, SSB must be stacked on top of SSG, not the base form. Because if SSB was stacked on top of base form, it would have to be greater than x400 which would make no sense based on the context of the very statements you provided.

Yes, there is a huge inconsistency and logic hole here and that's the writers fault. SSB was constantly stated to be based off of SBG, which would make a lot of sense. That's why there was such a huge debate for a long time of whether SSG was a form Goku could return to or not. But in the ToP it was confirmed that the progression of forms put SSG between SS3 and SSB. But if SSB was based on base form and a mere x50 multiplier, that would make NO sense for SSG or the other SS forms which have already left that multiplier in the dust. It's more logical to conclude that SSB stacks on top of the SSG form itself, the "power of Super Saiyan God' as was stated in those images you provided.

And that's also why I argued Ritual SSG had to be weaker than current SSG, because obviously Goku has grown stronger since then. If his new base form (SBG) is nearly as strong as Ritual SSG, than SSG stacked on top of that would have to be stronger than the previous form.

Yes, Goku absorbed the power of SSG into himself, making it his own. Meaning, it would not drain over time. The fact that Goku was stronger afterwards was a result of that. If he "made his own", then why would it drain out? They made an entire point of his power appearing to fade away but not really because Goku had achieved his own strength that was specifically NOT the SSG form. Thus, he had grown stronger during the fight after absorbing the energy into himself, whatever that means. It could mean a few things, like his body Zenkai'd, the ki became his own ki, his body adapted to god ki levels, and so on.

I'll admit I probably highballed SSG when I said he was multi-galaxy level, but he's definitely above star buster. The fact that Cell was confirmed to have the energy to destroy the solar system automatically puts every form past that on the solar system level. Not to mention SSG is so far above that it would be guaranteed to be multi-solar system buster easy. Though I admit galaxy buster was probably too far of a claim, considering how big galaxies are.

And again, just because Beerus was responsible for a huge amount of the energy does not mean Goku was not providing a significant amount. He "matched" him several times with those massive clashes and was struggling to hold back the ki bomb...but DID manage to do it for a time. That proves he is providing a significant portion of the energy threatening the universe, creating the dimensional tear or however else you analyze the feat. It would be different if Beerus's blows were saying knocking Goku back and creating shockwaves that were threatening the universe, but Goku was matching his blows and forcing him back too. He was even in these clashes, proving that at whatever level of power Beerus was fighting at, Goku was matching it, thus he was providing at least a third of the energy necessary easy.

And it's not a "fusion" of SSG and SS to create SSB. It's a combination of ki. Super Saiyan is a multiplication of power, whatever ki the person has, by 50. SSG is a form that holds a massive amount of god ki, which is stronger than ordinary ki. SSB would be the multiplication of that god ki by 50. Thus, it's not a fusion, it's just using two techniques together. It's just like stacking the Kaio Ken on top of SSB, it's just pumping up the power of the individual even further, not really a blend. But that's not the point anyway.

Let's say you're right and assume SSB is simply SS off of base form, which is reasonable to a degree. What then, is SSG? When Goku transforms into SSG during the ToP, what is actually happening there? He already has god ki in his base form, as you pointed out. So what is this form all about? Is it just a multiplication of strength?

And how strong are the SS forms in comparison? This is a very important question you have to answer to make this theory work. As shown by his confrontation with Jiren, Goku progressed from base to SS forms to SSG to SSB to SSBKK. At the very least, if SSB is not stacked on SSG and it's just its own multiplier form, it has be stacked on something else or be a bigger multiplier then 50x, both of which don't make sense.

Avatar image for jaakor
jaakor

690

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

SSG provided half the energy for the energy for the DBZ macrocasm destroying energy ball. Taking into account the size of said macrocasm compared with our universe, the answer is simple

Avatar image for shintoki
Shintoki

767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#40  Edited By Shintoki

@trask10100 said:

@shintoki: You bring up some good evidence for the SSB from base form, but it just can't be true. There is literally not enough of a gap for that to work.

If SSB is a x50 from base form, than what are SS, SS2, and SS3? Just SS form without the god ki? That would make sense except for the fact that Goku constantly powers up to SS after fighting in his base form. Goku is using the same SS forms as always, only they're massively stronger then ever because yes, his base form is as strong as SSG. I totally agree with that, there's no debate his new base form is ridiculously powerful now.

But the problem lies with multipliers. If Goku uses SS forms all the time after base form, why bother? His base form is already more powerful than the SS forms entirely. But he uses them anyways. And he always appears stronger when he does. For instance, Vegeta facing off with Cabba in the U6 Tournament. He fought in base form, and then in SS form. And THEN in SSB form. He got progressively stronger each time, proving that the SS forms do indeed stack on top of his base form. So then, what would the multiplier for SSB be then? SS already has the x50 slot (more like 87.5, but just to make a point), SS2 is twice that, and SS4 is 4 times THAT. So bare minimum, SS3 is 400x his new base form. If SSB really was just a SS form off his new base form that already has god ki, it cannot possibly be just a 50x multiplier.

Either he is becoming weaker when he transforms into Super Saiyan forms or he can choose when to merge god ki into his forms to create SSG and SSB. And if that is the case, SSB must be stacked on top of SSG, not the base form. Because if SSB was stacked on top of base form, it would have to be greater than x400 which would make no sense based on the context of the very statements you provided.

Yes, there is a huge inconsistency and logic hole here and that's the writers fault. SSB was constantly stated to be based off of SBG, which would make a lot of sense. That's why there was such a huge debate for a long time of whether SSG was a form Goku could return to or not. But in the ToP it was confirmed that the progression of forms put SSG between SS3 and SSB. But if SSB was based on base form and a mere x50 multiplier, that would make NO sense for SSG or the other SS forms which have already left that multiplier in the dust. It's more logical to conclude that SSB stacks on top of the SSG form itself, the "power of Super Saiyan God' as was stated in those images you provided.

And that's also why I argued Ritual SSG had to be weaker than current SSG, because obviously Goku has grown stronger since then. If his new base form (SBG) is nearly as strong as Ritual SSG, than SSG stacked on top of that would have to be stronger than the previous form.

Yes, Goku absorbed the power of SSG into himself, making it his own. Meaning, it would not drain over time. The fact that Goku was stronger afterwards was a result of that. If he "made his own", then why would it drain out? They made an entire point of his power appearing to fade away but not really because Goku had achieved his own strength that was specifically NOT the SSG form. Thus, he had grown stronger during the fight after absorbing the energy into himself, whatever that means. It could mean a few things, like his body Zenkai'd, the ki became his own ki, his body adapted to god ki levels, and so on.

I'll admit I probably highballed SSG when I said he was multi-galaxy level, but he's definitely above star buster. The fact that Cell was confirmed to have the energy to destroy the solar system automatically puts every form past that on the solar system level. Not to mention SSG is so far above that it would be guaranteed to be multi-solar system buster easy. Though I admit galaxy buster was probably too far of a claim, considering how big galaxies are.

And again, just because Beerus was responsible for a huge amount of the energy does not mean Goku was not providing a significant amount. He "matched" him several times with those massive clashes and was struggling to hold back the ki bomb...but DID manage to do it for a time. That proves he is providing a significant portion of the energy threatening the universe, creating the dimensional tear or however else you analyze the feat. It would be different if Beerus's blows were saying knocking Goku back and creating shockwaves that were threatening the universe, but Goku was matching his blows and forcing him back too. He was even in these clashes, proving that at whatever level of power Beerus was fighting at, Goku was matching it, thus he was providing at least a third of the energy necessary easy.

And it's not a "fusion" of SSG and SS to create SSB. It's a combination of ki. Super Saiyan is a multiplication of power, whatever ki the person has, by 50. SSG is a form that holds a massive amount of god ki, which is stronger than ordinary ki. SSB would be the multiplication of that god ki by 50. Thus, it's not a fusion, it's just using two techniques together. It's just like stacking the Kaio Ken on top of SSB, it's just pumping up the power of the individual even further, not really a blend. But that's not the point anyway.

Let's say you're right and assume SSB is simply SS off of base form, which is reasonable to a degree. What then, is SSG? When Goku transforms into SSG during the ToP, what is actually happening there? He already has god ki in his base form, as you pointed out. So what is this form all about? Is it just a multiplication of strength?

And how strong are the SS forms in comparison? This is a very important question you have to answer to make this theory work. As shown by his confrontation with Jiren, Goku progressed from base to SS forms to SSG to SSB to SSBKK. At the very least, if SSB is not stacked on SSG and it's just its own multiplier form, it has be stacked on something else or be a bigger multiplier then 50x, both of which don't make sense.

You are overthinking it

_______

God like saiyan or SBG is not the same as SSG < like it but not as it

GLS : sensable

SSG : insensable

One is using an actual God ki while the other is not

and if SSG/SS was a thing then goku would have SSR not SSB

The Power of a God cannot be sensed other than by other Gods lad

You could state that Goku is just Using a portion of SSG power in base form to tap into SS blue and when goku

there is also the possibility of goku choosing when to use ki/god ki

_____

that would make no sense if the SS forms were to multiply the God ki .......so that must be not the case

and we have goku black as an evidence for that as despite being a god and possessing god ki in base form because of zamasu < the SS form do not change till god ki is applied to it

this is supported by the fact that perfect blue is a thing suggesting there is a variant levels of applying god ki to the SS forms

if by writers you mean Toei then definitely

_____

SSG god ki conversion was confirmed to be stronger than SSIII multiplier and possibly the potara fusion

goku used that form strategy technically before TOP versus toppo in the manga and it was confirmed goku was not using actual god ki till SSG due to the sensibility thing

_____

Power of SSG or God ki =/= SSG form

ritual grants the borrowing/absorption/healing powers while unritual SSG does not

regardless of how much his Base form grows be it God base or saiyan base going SSG without the riual will always be inferior than of the other so.......nope

and you are comparing different points of time with bases and forms.......that is like stating SS is stronger than SSIII because GT goku was able to more than it could with it than SSIII before lad

_____

What Goku absorbed was the Power granted by the ritual pre the SSG due to the god ki conversion of SSG not there since the form was turned off in BOG film / TV super and BOF film confirmed the power was weaker than SSG

The Ritual technically speaking is the same technique saiyans used to beat shenron/broly but with the exclusivity of saiyans and the pure heart condition to make it different lad and goku stated before SSG that it would not be enough to beat beerus so pan will not change that

The Idea of goku reaching that level by one zenkai is ridiculous and never happened in the show

______

the dimensional tear was just there about to explode or something

goku tried to counter it as an SSG at fullpower and failed while beerus managed to do so at fullpower

this confirms that beerus was not using fullpower till the pre dimensional tear feat lad

Goku was still powering up as an SSG when he stated that he sensed no limits to the power of SSG and did not match beerus striking power till the fourth clash so Yes as goku at some point was releasing a portion of the shockwaves power

note: that also confirms that at the every least goku as an SSG was close or half the power of beerus or else why would beerus need to go fullpower for something who goku was cancelling at some point that became a dimensional tear lad

_________

The Shockwaves are less impressive than Boohan planning to destroy the universe by breaking its dimensional layers lad

they take around 2 minute to reach a potency that is able to destruct a planet/reach other solar systems

the feat itself cannot destroy a universe completely because of its nature and was most than likely gonna destroy only galaxies far from the one where earth is......

the feat is a Hax that require constant feat even from beerus so it is a low Multi galaxy feat at best by Hax

SS is a form and so is SSG while kaioken and God like saiyans are techniques so the idea of SSGSSS in a literal sense is a fusion of SSG and SS

the technique + form would be God like saiyan/SS

_______

SSR Is an actual deity applying god ki to SS since it was shown that SS can be used with God ki and there are variant levels to that hence perfect blue

SSB is a saiyan applying god ki to SS

SSG is a saiyan becoming a god of saiyans therefore somewhat ki is converted to god ki by some automatic process unlike having just a position like kami

God like state is just a saiyan who is trying to use the power of SSG

happy christmas

Avatar image for midnightdragon18
midnightdragon18

9886

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

its 2019 guys

stop falling for bait

Avatar image for hurricanefunnel
hurricanefunnel

2151

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

all of them are above universal. it's quite simple actually. there were universal level ssj3

ssg to mui are far above that

based on feats and/or information

Avatar image for shintoki
Shintoki

767

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

all of them are above universal. it's quite simple actually. there were universal level ssj3

ssg to mui are far above that

based on feats and/or information

Goku in SSIII was not universal level unless you are counting fusion reborn which is a GT thing and shaking the Otherworld =/= universe since the place was confirmed to be only the size of a star at best due to DBS showing that the place is smaller than some claimed it to be lad

as for SSG < the shockwaves were caused by beerus and are Hax that are take a long time before destroying the universe

UI is a skill technique/hax not a strength multiplier < refrain from headcanon

and goku never mastered it < that would be like saying Namek goku had a MSS since he used it incidentally so

Avatar image for jaakor
jaakor

690

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

At the very least SSJB and above are

Avatar image for trask10100
Trask10100

290

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@shintoki: I don't know about that, I think the fact that Goku's presence was shaking the world of void when turning UI showed there was a significant power increase, at least ki wise. Not to mention his Kamehameha was powerful enough to send Kefla flying, where has one from SSB was tanked by Kale (though that is a fairly unique instance). I think there's lots of evidence to suggest it's a multiplier, at least towards ki and speed. Speed and reaction for sure, of course.

@hurricanefunnel: Also SS3 is certainly not universal. The movie feat, while substantial, can only apply to movie version Goku. Even if we did take that into account, there is too much evidence to the contrary. For instance, Kid Buu is a confirmed galaxy buster over time, and he was basically even with SS3 Goku (with Goku having an edge). SS2 Gohan was confirmed to be a Solar System buster because he was equal with Cell who stated as such and was backed up by the guide books. A mere 4x multiplier from there wouldn't be enough to jump into galaxy buster. Broly is also a confirmed galaxy buster, but again that's over time and he was far more powerful than SS2 Gohan in the second movie. He was probably even stronger than SS3 at this point, given that he had yet to activate his LSS mode. There's just too much evidence to the contrary to call SS3 even a galaxy buster, let alone a universal buster.

Avatar image for hurricanefunnel
hurricanefunnel

2151

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#46  Edited By hurricanefunnel

@trask10100 said:

@shintoki: I don't know about that, I think the fact that Goku's presence was shaking the world of void when turning UI showed there was a significant power increase, at least ki wise. Not to mention his Kamehameha was powerful enough to send Kefla flying, where has one from SSB was tanked by Kale (though that is a fairly unique instance). I think there's lots of evidence to suggest it's a multiplier, at least towards ki and speed. Speed and reaction for sure, of course.

@hurricanefunnel: Also SS3 is certainly not universal. The movie feat, while substantial, can only apply to movie version Goku. Even if we did take that into account, there is too much evidence to the contrary. For instance, Kid Buu is a confirmed galaxy buster over time, and he was basically even with SS3 Goku (with Goku having an edge). SS2 Gohan was confirmed to be a Solar System buster because he was equal with Cell who stated as such and was backed up by the guide books. A mere 4x multiplier from there wouldn't be enough to jump into galaxy buster. Broly is also a confirmed galaxy buster, but again that's over time and he was far more powerful than SS2 Gohan in the second movie. He was probably even stronger than SS3 at this point, given that he had yet to activate his LSS mode. There's just too much evidence to the contrary to call SS3 even a galaxy buster, let alone a universal buster.

this is entirely false certainly based on information, just b/c it's a wall of text doesn't make it right, necessarily. hurricanefunnel sticks with hurricanefunnel's original answer here

Avatar image for deactivated-5ffd6af867550
deactivated-5ffd6af867550

2882

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

In BOG, I don't think they really were threatening the Universe because Whis was unconcerned. When Beerus and Champa battled both Whis and Vados were concerned because of the potential universal destruction. The Kais are the people who would think any being relatively stronger would threaten the Universe. I really hate the way UI was portrayed. Whis has told many times that ot was a technique rather than a form. It doesn't make you thousands of time stronger it is just self movement. The creators pushed themselves in a corner with Jiren so they treat MUI as some sort of form or whatever. Any one at the level of GoD is universal in my opinion

Avatar image for galactic_1000
Galactic_1000

5911

Forum Posts

24

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

At Best universal

Avatar image for ps4gamerdude
ps4gamerdude

1104

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@zoomspeedblitz: Only by absurd, unrealistic power scaling, bs fan calcs, and highballing, yes. By actual feats, no.

Avatar image for baph
baph

3726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

No.