In the Anime (GOD transformation aside) why is Toppo the second fiddle and not Dyspo?

I don't understand this as Golden Frieza, SSB Vegeta, and SSB Goku are equals. Both Vegeta and Goku had a slight upperhand against Toppo. Whereas Dyspo messed Golden Frieza up and he needed help from Gohan.

Experience and being far more level headed was in Toppo's corner, plus he was a smarter fighter. Dyspo lacks far too much to be given the second fiddle title of the Pride Troopers.

This and the fact that Base Toppo > SSB Goku/Vegeta already in stats

Toppo tanked a point blank Ssb KHH.

Because Dyspo is just faster than Toppo while Toppo is better in everything else.

Dyspo excels in ring out fights because of his speed. Without that scenario Toppo is literally better in almost everything else.

@phantomrant: In theory, sure. But I can't imagine Toppo giving Frieza and Hit as much trouble as Dyspo did. Hell Dyspo was beating SSB Goku who Toppo was losing to.

@oreoghoul: He lost both fights

No he didn't

Dypso may be fast...but he lacks power to back it up...there is a reason Superman consistently beats Barry in fights...speed isn't everything after all...

@oreoghoul: How do you figure? Vegeta was distracted and had a slight upper-hand. Just LOL if you think he won the fight against Goku, getting stomped in the face repeatedly and hit with a point blank khh

Toppo tanking a point blank SSB Kamehameha from a serious Goku and then powering up further to fight SSBKK Goku is more than enough to put him above normal SSB. His encounter with Vegeta didn't lead to anything, end with a clear victor or displayed his real power that he was gonna use against SSBKK Goku.

He didn't lose during his fight with Goku and he didn't lose during his fight against SSB-Vegeta.

Do you know that Goku was at full-power? Do you know that Toppo at full-power is enough to beat SSB Goku? Cause I saw no such proof. I don't see how literally getting ping ponged across the arena and not dying when hit with a khh means that you didn't lose, I really don't. Same when people say Goku didn't lose his first fight to Kale, yeah he did.

Vegeta had the upper-hand and again. Can you prove Vegeta was at full-power or that Toppo was suppressed? Even so you can't prove that it would have made a difference.

@amonfire1776: He didn't seem to lack power in any of his fights. Could you elaborate?

Dyspo wasn't beating SSB Goku......Toppo lost to SSB Goku when Toppo was holding back.....at full power he's comparable with SSBKK.

@phantomrant: Yes he was, can you prove Goku wasn't holding back or that Toppo's power-up would've made a difference? By your logic Golden Frieza was comparable to Jiren cause he decided he needed to transform.

Goku and Vegeta got stronger in that tournament. So it won’t matter as Goku SSBKK would wipe base Toppo out. SSBE is comparable to SSBKK. So would whoop Toppo’s ass as SSBKK and SSB end of tournament can beat base Toppo.

Goku was completely serious when he fought Toppo and was not holding back whatsoever

If a full-power SSB Goku couldn't do any serious damage, than Goku's not beating him with SSB. Toppo powered-up was about to fight SSBKK (either 10 or 20) let alone normal SSB...

Yeah that's exactly what you mean. He wasn't incapacitated, knocked out, forced to flee, BFR-ed or killed, so he did not lose

He only lost because he wasn't at full power, evident by his ability to fight a stronger version of Kale with just SSG later on.

He didn't though, they traded like once and Vegeta threw him off. And again that was just Base Toppo not even powered-up

There is no indication that Vegeta was not at full power. Why would we assume otherwise, when has Vegeta held back with SSB? Goku has numerous times so there is a precedent.

Toppo was suppressed because he was not powered-up. Full-power Toppo is the one seen that was about to fight SSBKK Goku

Except it does make a difference. Toppo at full-power is above normal SSB and Base Toppo is at or slightly above normal SSB...

@gokugoat: Not what we're talking about but whatever

No he wasn't.... he literally never touched SSB Goku.

can you prove Goku wasn't holding back or that Toppo's power-up would've made a difference?

The simple fact that he opted to use Kaioken when Toppo tanked his point-blank Kamehameha, and after witnessing Toppo charge to his full power while using SSBKK he wasn't sure if he could beat him. This is clear and convincing evidence that FP Toppo is SSBKK tier.

By your logic Golden Frieza was comparable to Jiren cause he decided he needed to transform.

That wasn't my logic at all.

@oreoghoul: 1. Just cause you say it it doesn't mean it's true. Toppo looked more serious anyways. Goku was having fun. Toppo gave Goku a speech and treated him as a villain.

2. Refer to 1., why 20x or 10x, why not 2? Even if Toppo is above Blue Goku that doesn't mean by much. 1.1x and Goku would need kaioken.

3. WTF does that mean? You ever watch a fight be ended in a decision? Like christ bro. "He no knocked out so he not lose" is really stupid.

4. Again, no proof. Can be explained by inconsistent power-levels or Goku getting a zenkai since regular SSB Goku did better than SSB kkx20 Goku did against a stronger Jiren.

5. He did though, he got more hits in and he was distracted. And again, you can't prove Toppo was suppressed, you can't prove Vegeta was at full-power, and you can't prove that if Toppo wasn't at full-power that it would've made a difference. You lose.

6. Against Black, enough with your special pleading now.

7. This one is just laugh-worthy. Toppo while suppressed took more hits, was more damaged, etc yet you have him above Goku. Yeah, you're a fanboy. This discussion is over kid.

@phantomrant: 1. Except he did.

2. Oh, ok. Then so is Gohan.

3. Yes it was, you said that Goku decided to power-up, therefore Toppo was at that level. Golden Frieza powered up so by your logic he's equal to Jiren. That's a little backwards so how about this. Jiren was winning against the Z-fighters yet he kept powering up even though he didn't need to. Same with Frieza on Namek. I guess they powered-up cause they needed to :)

He didn't. Only time Goku used SSB was like for 1 second against Dyspo and neither touched the either. If you have any other video of them encountering then go ahead and provide it, but you won't. You're confusing SSG with SSB.

Oh, ok. Then so is Gohan.

No. Why would he be?

Yes it was, you said that Goku decided to power-up, therefore Toppo was at that level. Golden Frieza powered up so by your logic he's equal to Jiren. That's a little backwards so how about this. Jiren was winning against the Z-fighters yet he kept powering up even though he didn't need to. Same with Frieza on Namek. I guess they powered-up cause they needed to :)

Even that strawmanning of my argument doesn't work since Golden Frieza powering up against Jiren doesn't mean Jiren is = Golden Frieza. it would mean Frieza needed his strongest form to stand the slightest chance against Jiren, which he didn't of course. using Frieza as an example was also kinda dumb. Honestly not sure if you're deliberately trolling or you had a brain fart when you couldn't grasp such simple context.

But maybe comprehend the point I was actually getting at this time around?

My logic was:

1. Goku needed to enter SSBKK against Toppo

2. Toppo charged to his full power

3. Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Toppo's full power with his

4. Therefore, they're on the same tier.

idk what business Goku has holding back either when he knew he was facing a strong opponent and a GoD candidate at that. Whether or not he was holding back SSB's full power doesn't matter when we know he wasn't confident he could beat Toppo anyway. No surprise when the guy tanked a point-blank kamehameha which was charged for 20 seconds. Further evidence is that Beerus thought Goku killed Toppo and Whis remarked that Goku got "too serious".

GP intervening to stop the fight, Goku acknowledging Toppo's strength and for giving him a good fight would all be meaninglesss if Goku was stronger than Toppo with just his SSB.

No but the facts make it true:

Goku definitely looks like he's having fun... /s

Beerus even said he got too serious

He said he was using his full-power. That means x10 at the very least, possibly x20 since this was right before the ToP.

This aint boxing lmao. That's literally not how anyone decides who won a fight. He got rag dolled around once and you think that's enough to warrant Goku SSB being above Toppo? really? lmao.

You have no proof or right to assume Zenkai or that it was PIS, when we have a clear history of Goku holding back

Toppo was suppressed, he wasn't powered up. This is him powered up

He powers up here and once again against Android 17.

You can't prove Vegeta wasn't at full power. There is no indication he was holding back. Prove it.

Evidence?

Yeah because SSB Goku couldn't do anything serious damage to him and had to power up to SSBKK. He even admits that SSB might not be enough to beat him after the tournament.

Heres a good piece of advice: Not everyone who disagrees with you is a fanboy. If you can't take the facts and wanna call names, you're clearly not fit to have these types of discussions or debates.

@phantomrant: 1. He kept alternating between the two. If Dyspo couldn't tag SSB then he would just use SSB. He tagged golden Frieza anyways who is equal to SSB Goku so this is a pointless conversation.

2. DURR because he used kaioken on Gohan like he did on Toppo

3. I admitted that wasn't the best example. So explain Frieza powering up on namek or Jiren powering up when they didn't need to then. It's the same thing. Gimme a break, that was for hype. Goku not knowing if he could beat Toppo is too. He can sense power-levels.

"too serious" yeah, just like how I can play fight with my little brother. I don't have to go full-power to have gotten "too serious".

He only alternated once, and that's obviously not the same as saying Dyspo was beating SSB Goku. Think you're hyperbolizing. It is a pointless since there's enough correlational evidence to put Dyspo at SSB level yes which I never disagreed with, but you're the one who brought up Dyspo was beating SSB Goku.

DURR because he used kaioken on Gohan like he did on Toppo

Another poor grasp over context? The logic is different since Goku never mentioned any parity between his SSBKK and Gohan's full power, kinda obvious when Goku one-shotted him. All it means is that Gohan is SSB level, which was nailed down by the narrator.

Gimme a break, that was for hype. Goku not knowing if he could beat Toppo is too. He can sense power-levels.

Way to prove my point. Fact that Goku wasn't sure if he could beat Toppo despite being able to sense his ki shows that the difference between their full power is so small that he can't discern it. So yeah Toppo is on the same level as Goku.

"too serious" yeah, just like how I can play fight with my little brother. I don't have to go full-power to have gotten "too serious".

I guess go ahead and ignore everything else I wrote.

@oreoghoul: 1. Oh ffs, you're being ridiculous. Show me one example of a khh where the person doesn't look serious. He looked serious when using a khh on fucking Krillin >.> Goku is smiling at Toppo after the attack while Toppo is gasping for air.

2. Does "too serious" mean full-power? Or does it mean "too much for that guy" basically?

3. No he didn't, provide evidence. Don't think it'd matter anyways. He said the same in his beam struggle with Merged Zamasu. While not in kk.

4. It doesn't have to be boxing, it's common sense. One guy got rag-dolled and stomped in the face and not only do you interpret that as not a loss but go on to say Toppo in that state was stronger than Goku. Yeah, there's something wrong with you, end of story.

5. Oh? So he used SSB against Kale when he said he wouldn't use it unless he needs to as it wastes too much energy and still lost anyways cause "mUH SuppReSsIoN"? He was also suppressed against Jiren his first fight? Give it a rest with this suppression bullcrap already. I explained the proof. Goku did better against stronger forms of Jiren and Kale in a weaker form the 2nd time around.

6. Yeah bro, if he's not constantly engulfed in aura then he's not at full-power. Oh wait, where was his aura after he powered-up to full during his beam struggle with Android #17? WHOOPS! :/

7. Or that Toppo was as I just proved. But you have no issue assuming Goku was suppressed all the time so it's special pleading.

8. He couldn't hurt Base Black but he could hurt SSR Black, that's how :)

9. But phantom. Toppo powered-up first and showed more damage. Why did he power up if he didn't need to? Why was Goku less damaged?

10. Cute, your logic is bass ackwards. If you're gonna say Toppo is stronger than Goku despite being more damaged, getting rag-dolled and being forced to power-up than yeah, I'm going to call a spade a spade. You're free to cry about it all you'd like.

@phantomrant: 1. Why would he only alternate once? That makes zero sense.

2. Do you have proof that he couldn't do the same to Toppo? Enough with the special pleading. You guys interpret things in these weird abstract ways and then assert it as "evidence". The narrator said Gohan rivals Goku. There's your "parity in power"

3. If that's the case than that would mean that Vegeta's regular SSB is equal to Goku's kk x20. And don't you dare try to argue that Toppo was suppressed against Vegeta. This narrative you're creating is just asinine as is.

4. You didn't write anything that would make what I said incorrect but keep pretending.

You were the one stating Goku was having fun. I was simply showing you he was not during that attack. Smiling afterwards could mean a number of things, like he's happy he's found an opponent so strong. We don't know, but we can take implications from previous encounters.

Stop playing with semantics, you know what they meant. and Whis even thought Goku killed him.

On second look, he didn't say that but he still said the same implication of being at his strongest^

Lmao that's not how anyone determines the winner of a battle here. If they weren't incapacitated, knocked out, forced to flee or BFR-ed or killed, they didn't lose. Unless Toppo was in a puddle of his own blood and it was objectively clear Goku was superior, you can't claim he won or lost.

So no proof? Got it

You're being intentionally ignorant now. He literally states he's at full power both times and will unleash all his justice.

You proved nothing. Haven't showed a single thing.

Please provide evidence. Actual evidence.

You're ignoring everything I've shown

what a joke

Basically this.

Not responding again if you aren't gonna supply evidence to your claims, ignore everything I say, and call names.

EDIT: wish I saw that you believe SSB isn't that much stronger than SSJ2 before I wasted my time lol

Some major Toppo wank here.

Toppo couldn’t even tank attacks from Frieza very well. Lol.

Toppo<=>Ssb Vegeta

@oreoghoul: 1. He was happy, you nitpicked and in a dishonest manner. That's what I've noticed with you, you will say anything to win.

2. I'm not playing semantics, you are. You're using this very lame argument to try and argue Goku was full-power and you ignore my rebuttal to it. So what if he thought he killed him? Goku doesn't have to try very hard to kill someone like Captain Ginyu either. Does that mean he's at full-power if he gets too serious with Ginyu? Yes or no? Stop ducking questions.

3. Umm no, kk in and of itself is him being above his limit. Not only that but Zeno said he had to fight at full strength.

4. Yes I can, that is how it works. You're unbelievably dense. These are mental gymnastics the likes of which of never seen. And to top it all off you don't simply call it a draw you go one step beyond and say that Toppo was stronger than Goku.

5. No no no, you're the one with no proof. Let's get that straight. Your "argument" is that Goku was suppressed even though that makes not one iota of logical sense and I explained to you why he wasn't suppressed. I've met my burden of proof. Meet yours or take a fucking walk.

6. So if someone doesn't say they're at full-power that means they're not now? It's besides the point. Your argument was that Toppo wasn't at full power because "This is what Toppo looks like when he's at full-power".

7. You're pulling shit out of your ass but then when I explain my reasoning and why yours doesn't make sense you just pout and say "that not evidence" with no explanation as if that refutes anything. Learn to debate.

8. The problem is you'll only recognize it as evidence if it supports your argument. Many of your positions have zero evidence backing them yet you treat them as unfalsifiable. If Vegeta wasn't suppressed then why didn't he kill Black? Or are you saying that SSB isn't much stronger than Base now?

9. I addressed literally everything you said. Referring to your debunked arguments is not a valid retort.

10. No, explain yourself. You're committing an appeal to the stone fallacy. You have to explain why something is wrong, you don't just get to assert that it is wrong.

11. This is an ad hominem, I am the only one explaining myself. I explained why I think SSB isn't much stronger than SSJ2. You refuse o look at the evidence. You're desperate so all you can do is attempt to mock and discredit me. Well it wont work. Come back when you have some integrity and become a man.

I think it's clear that Toppo was superior to Dyspo in many (if not all) ways. Dyspo MAY have been faster, but that was his only strength. Toppo on the other hand was a very strong overall fighter that could tangle with the likes of SSB Vegeta and Goku for extended periods of time. And sure, Toppo "struggled" with certain attacks and forms. But all that didn't matter as Toppo was holding back the entire tournament. And as we've seen with Goku throughout the entire tournament, by holding back a great deal during certain fights, even he could take some damage and get knocked around. But when he was facing someone above his suppressed forms, he always moved up to the form he needed, especially when it came to Jiren and Toppo. While Dyspo certainly gave some trouble to several of the fighters, he was never capable of taking their blows. SSG Goku alone was enough to not alone surprise Dyspo but deal some damage to him. Of course, his speed was so overwhelming he technically did more damage to Frieza than Toppo did, but I think this is a very specialized case. Dyspo was strong because he was very fast. Toppo was strong because he was good at everything. And since we knew he was capable of more once we saw the GoD form, we knew everything up until then was just a suppressed form.

Yes true, you wanted an opinion on the fact ignoring this form, but I don't think you can. It's like comparing SSB Goku to everyone and assuming this was his highest level of fighting. We all knew that he was also capable of Kaio Ken in this form and eventually higher levels of power. He was the strongest from Universe 7 for this reason. Similarly, in Toppo's universe he is the one being considered for God of Destruction, so we know he is nearing this level of power. As such, he is the second in line for the Universal team. Asking why he's second fiddle while ignoring this form leaves out critical information.

Toppo lost to Goku and Vegeta, strength wise he's slightly inferior. Considering how Dyspo handled Golden Frieza who is equal to SSB I don't see how they'd fair any better.

I agree Toppo is stronger but I don't see how he'd be able to beat Dyspo in a fight which is my point.

@green_burstxxx: I can see a few scenarios, such as utilizing his strength to create opportunities for a grapple. Ignoring his GoD powers, there a few methods based on the techniques we've seen him use so far. Dyspo was a straight forward speed fighter, but Toppo could use that to his advantage to take a blow from Dyspo and respond in a dual exchange or counter, which could perhaps lead to a grapple. Plus with his rapid fire energy attacks there's always room to back Dyspo into a corner. Plus Dyspo was naturally cocky as he almost threw himself off the edge of the ring when he was tricked by Hit. Toppo might be able to perform a similar deuce. Once he has him in a grapple or lands some powerful blows, there's definitely room for win in his corner. Plus, even if Dyspo was too fast for Toppo to handle, I believe the status of leader of the Pride Troopers was definitely well earned due to experience, commitment, and overall strength and ability. Dyspo was a specialized fighter, not suited for all situations combat wise, while Toppo was a powerful beast in every department (though mostly strength). Thus, it's only natural he gets the nod. Plus, Dyspo doesn't seem like a leader, more like a rookie or perhaps just a cocky speed-obsessed fighter.