DBS is not canon

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Shintoki

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#1  Edited By Shintoki

so.....why should DBS be canon when there are three versions of it, with two being retells of it, and the primary version being considered a what if continuation by toriyama

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jplaya2023

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#2  Edited By jplaya2023

the manga isn't canon the anime is canon. the manga toto writes and AT gives input. AT has more input in the anime

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Shintoki

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considering toriyama himself said toyotaro sticks out too much to his script, you might want to double check that

the anime is more original than the manga, heck there are even pseudo-fillers in it < .....so eh

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AchievedHero

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I was under the impression Dragon Ball GT was canon.

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alextheboss

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@jplaya2023: Wrong. If anything the manga is more accurate to Toriyama's script, however neither is more canon than the other.

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alextheboss

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@achievedhero: Nope, at best GT is "canon" to the original Z anime.

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alextheboss

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#7  Edited By alextheboss

@shintoki: Toriyama said super is the official continuation of his story. He never said it was a what if. There isn't a version that is more canon than the others, but the overall events are "canon". Though there really isn't a solid canon when it comes to dragon ball.

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silvanus

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DBS Anime and Manga are both canon. They aren't canon to each other though.

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FireStarLord73194

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#9  Edited By FireStarLord73194

Canon is such a subjective term. I’ve seen ppl say only manga is canon, only anime is canon, only AT’s direct involvement is canon, AT’s counsultation is canon but at this point, with a series that spans multiple decades and has multiple timelines, all forms are canon. AT sensei himself has never said what’s “canon”, he’s identified different timelines sure but never what should be considered canon. It’d be like me saying New 52 isn’t canon to DC, it’s just silly to say. All canon, all fair game

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MainJP

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nilok

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#11  Edited By nilok

@shintoki: Toriyama encouraged Toyotaro to branch out more than the anime, and has the advantage of writing it later. Both the manga and anime use the same notes, though sometimes Toriyama had to step in on the anime if the notes were too vague to begin with. The anime team basically treat Toriyama's notes a gospel, which is basically how we Resurrection F.

Just think of the anime and manga as parallel universes. Both are happening.

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Galactic_1000

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What?

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Shintoki

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What?

You would need to be more specific than that?

@nilok said:

@shintoki: Toriyama encouraged Toyotaro to branch out more than the anime, and has the advantage of writing it later. Both the manga and anime use the same notes, though sometimes Toriyama had to step in on the anime if the notes were too vague to begin with. The anime team basically treat Toriyama's notes a gospel, which is basically how we Resurrection F.

Just think of the anime and manga as parallel universes. Both are happening.

if they were parallel timelines, then that would contradict the official timeline chart.

Canon is such a subjective term. I’ve seen ppl say only manga is canon, only anime is canon, only AT’s direct involvement is canon, AT’s counsultation is canon but at this point, with a series that spans multiple decades and has multiple timelines, all forms are canon. AT sensei himself has never said what’s “canon”, he’s identified different timelines sure but never what should be considered canon. It’d be like me saying New 52 isn’t canon to DC, it’s just silly to say. All canon, all fair game

not sure where you are getting with that but a franchise having multiple timelines doesn't make its canonicity subjective.

*all official material should be considered canon unless stated otherwise*

GT par example is stated both as a side story by the author and a sequel to the anime by toei executive producer.

baradock special was stated to be just a what if story. etc

you get the point

@shintoki: Toriyama said super is the official continuation of his story. He never said it was a what if. There isn't a version that is more canon than the others, but the overall events are "canon". Though there really isn't a solid canon when it comes to dragon ball.

false. toriyama never stated in any material that Super (and being vague about which one only makes this more silly) is an official continuation of his manga

in the contrary, toriyama stated that BOG/ROF were written with the intention of Being WHAT IF continuation to his manga, goku and the friends return which is the OG work is pure toei stuff, making it sensible.

with the film continuity of super out. neither Super anime or manga can exist if both are conidered canon since that contradict the official timeline chart, the only possibiliy that one of them is and that one would retcon DB

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alextheboss

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@shintoki:

in the contrary, toriyama stated that BOG/ROF were written with the intention of Being WHAT IF continuation to his manga

Please show me where he said this

with the film continuity of super out. neither Super anime or manga can exist if both are conidered canon since that contradict the official timeline chart, the only possibiliy that one of them is and that one would retcon DB

This is fiction, there doesn't have to be one version where it all has to line up.

The only thing that I would say is absolute canon is things directly made by Toriyama, for example his original manga and the jaco manga.

Next comes Toriyama adaptions, which would be BoG, RoF, and dragon ball /Z/kai/Super anime (not including fillers).

Next comes fillers, GT, and movies.

And last comes video games and other side materials.

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Shintoki

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#15  Edited By Shintoki

@alextheboss said:

@shintoki:

in the contrary, toriyama stated that BOG/ROF were written with the intention of Being WHAT IF continuation to his manga

Please show me where he said this

with the film continuity of super out. neither Super anime or manga can exist if both are conidered canon since that contradict the official timeline chart, the only possibiliy that one of them is and that one would retcon DB

This is fiction, there doesn't have to be one version where it all has to line up.

The only thing that I would say is absolute canon is things directly made by Toriyama, for example his original manga and the jaco manga.

Next comes Toriyama adaptions, which would be BoG, RoF, and dragon ball /Z/kai/Super anime (not including fillers).

Next comes fillers, GT, and movies.

And last comes video games and other side materials.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/v-jump-september-2014-akira-toriyama-comment/

_______

fiction is not an argument.

jaco reference Anime only material so.....< not really. and OG/kanzenban obviously since retcons are a thing and considering toriyama direct involvement as absolute is stupid as hell

its like saying neko majin is definitely canon

adaptations are not canon. same goes for fillers. video games and etc

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nilok

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#16  Edited By nilok

@shintoki said:
@nilok said:

@shintoki: Toriyama encouraged Toyotaro to branch out more than the anime, and has the advantage of writing it later. Both the manga and anime use the same notes, though sometimes Toriyama had to step in on the anime if the notes were too vague to begin with. The anime team basically treat Toriyama's notes a gospel, which is basically how we Resurrection F.

Just think of the anime and manga as parallel universes. Both are happening.

if they were parallel timelines, then that would contradict the official timeline chart.

Which official timeline?

The only official timeline I'm aware of is the history and story Toriyama wrote leading up to and for Dragon Ball Online, which Xenoverse use as their cornerstone. If there was a new timeline produced since Super, I really want to see that, especially with the Cell Saga and Goku Black arc.

Having parallel timeline doesn't contradict there being an official timeline, in fact, that is exactly what happens when someone time travels, splitting off a parallel timeline. This is explicitly stated by Whis in Dragon Ball Super.

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Shintoki

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@nilok said:

@shintoki said:
@nilok said:

@shintoki: Toriyama encouraged Toyotaro to branch out more than the anime, and has the advantage of writing it later. Both the manga and anime use the same notes, though sometimes Toriyama had to step in on the anime if the notes were too vague to begin with. The anime team basically treat Toriyama's notes a gospel, which is basically how we Resurrection F.

Just think of the anime and manga as parallel universes. Both are happening.

if they were parallel timelines, then that would contradict the official timeline chart.

Which official timeline?

The only official timeline I'm aware of is the history and story Toriyama wrote leading up to and for Dragon Ball Online, which Xenoverse use as their cornerstone. If there was a new timeline produced since Super, I really want to see that, especially with the Cell Saga and Goku Black arc.

Having parallel timeline doesn't contradict there being an official timeline, in fact, that is exactly what happens when someone time travels, splitting off a parallel timeline. This is explicitly stated by Whis in Dragon Ball Super.

bit late but school kept me busy. anyways

i was referring to the DBZ timeline chart from daizenshuu

No Caption Provided

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nilok

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#18  Edited By nilok

@shintoki: With this being made before Super, let alone Dragon Ball Online, nothing about it would be here (unless it was so unimportant compared to Buu being revived /s). That does make sense, thanks.

With all this being said, the timeline is making me a little frustrated, especially with the numbers. There is an entire alternate timeline missing where the android are shutdown with the controllers in the past. That is the "first" Trunks that Cell kills to go back to the past to cause the Timeline 1 split to happen. The fact they say, "There must be a future where Cell killed Trunks" is just frustrating. Heck, if they are going to pull that BS, there also "must" be a "future" were Beerus did and didn't wake up, let's call it Schrodinger's God of Destruction.

Also, something that is bugging me about that chart, did Trunks ever go back to the past three times? It says in the timeline, went to the past to give the medication, then again to fight the androids in the past and Cell Games. It says after he beat Imperfect Cell in the future, did he actually go back in time again 3 years later? If he did, then child Trunks would have been 4 years old, and should actually be able to remember meeting his future self.

On top of that, by 770, Krillin and 18 could have been married at that point. Now that would have been interesting.

At some point, I'm going to have to map out the timeline rivers so it actually works.

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Eragale

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I was under the impression Dragon Ball GT was canon.

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Shintokis

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what are the stance of others in recreating DBS manuscript through novelising the similar plot points throughout the works? not perfect but the best so far

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#21  Edited By Matrixkid

Just because Akira had involvement with something, even if it's direct involvement, that doesn't make the product canon. Also, after seeing the V-Jump comment translation (https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/v-jump-september-2014-akira-toriyama-comment/), I think he was saying that he was making the movie as if it were a continuation of DBZ, without it being a continuation of DBZ. Dragon Ball Super's interpretation of BOG and ROF don't have anything to do with that, and I'm pretty sure Akira's gone on to say that DBS is canon.

That said, what's canon and what isn't with DBS should be fairly simple. If Akira says it's canon, then it's canon. He made the script for DBS, and both Toei and Toyable have made additions to the script for the anime/manga adaptations.
I suppose this is the part that gets a little confusing. Dragon Ball Super, in of itself, is in fact canon. The anime and manga adaptations are still continuations of DBZ, but they're just different tellings of it. They're both still considered canon, but just not canon to each other (The anime isn't canon to the manga, and vise versa).
Calling either of these 'parallel universes' aren't exactly wrong, but they're not the best way to define them either. Plus, them being called 'parallel universes' doesn't mean they interact/contradict with the """Official""" DB timeline or DBS's multiple universes, they're different kinds of 'parallel universes' if that makes sense.
They exist side by side without mentioning/referencing each other. This isn't an absolute rule, but it applies here. So manga like Dragon Ball Minus is still canon, even if it references anime only material (Plus the anime only material of DB/Z for the most part doesn't contradict the manga, it only adds to it, so there's no reason it couldn't exist in the manga should it be mentioned).

There's a lot of things that support DBS being canon (Like the script being made by Akira, and it taking place after DBZ), and a lot going against it (Different adaptations that contradict each other). This really is where the modern definition of 'Canon' can't properly define DBS's canon, and it's where I think we have to acknowledge that this is a work of fiction, and anything goes. Just because you can't define DBS's cannonocity with the modern definition of 'Canon', doesn't mean that it's not canon. There's an exception to every rule, and DBS is one of those exceptions.

Sort of adding to that, what's canon also depends on what the creator's working on at the time. For the longest time, DBGT was canon, simply because there was no one saying otherwise, and it was quite clear that that was the globally accepted 'continuation' of DBZ (And no, Neko Majin ain't canon because it's a gag manga, same with Dragon Ball SD). It was only until BOG came along that it no longer was considered canon. People did speculate for the longest time that DBS could work its way into DBGT, but I feel like it's passed the point of no return by now.

Finally, does it really matter if it's canon or if it isn't? If DBS is entertaining in its own right, then it shouldn't matter, and people should still be able to love it all the same. Same goes for if people don't like it, they should be able to do so even if it's not canon.
For all intents and purposes, DBS is just a neat little series that takes place between DBZ episodes 288 and 289, and that's all we really need. Canon or not, it is what it is. It would be nice to get a proper, full statement from the great man himself, but until then, we should probably just settle with 'DBS is canon, with the manga and anime adaptations being cannonical variations of the main script'.

And yes, recreating the DBS manuscript through novelising similar plot points would be nice, but I think that's the entire point of the anime/manga. It'd be far too bare bones, and while it might please hardcore Akira enthusiasts, most of us would probably find it very boring and too quickly paced. At this point, the only hope we have of a 100% agreeable canon DBS is if Akira makes a reboot/retelling of DBS, one adaptation (Like a multi-part movie like Fate/Stay Night: Heaven's Feel), and says it's the official canon.

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Revold

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There are different degrees of canonicity. Official alternate storylines are less canon than parallel universes but still more canon than community fan fiction.

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takenstew22

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#23 takenstew22  Moderator

I believe both the anime and manga are canon but "different" types of canon. Much like how the filler in DBZ isn't canon to the manga but is canon to the anime (I think).

The movies, GT and Heroes are the ones that aren't canon.

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Phantasial

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#24  Edited By Phantasial

@matrixkid:

@revold said:

There are different degrees of canonicity. Official alternate storylines are less canon than parallel universes but still more canon than community fan fiction.

@takenstew22 said:

I believe both the anime and manga are canon but "different" types of canon. Much like how the filler in DBZ isn't canon to the manga but is canon to the anime (I think).

The movies, GT and Heroes are the ones that aren't canon.

pretty much this. I don't why we need to discuss this when all we know at this point that toriyama fused his manga with the anime. although, i do want to say that the part about the movies is a bit misleading since all films from BOG and afterwards are kinda canonical.

and as for matri. neko majin is actually confirmed canonical by toriyama. here is a statement about it confirming that neko majin stuff are actually a thing. even if it's too gag-like then again, we are talking about the same guy who made dragon ball and ''dr slump'' (most gag show ever) related so...

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/chozenshu-1-we-asked-akira-toriyama-2013/

Are the Neko Majin a race originally from Earth?Naturally, they are a race that has been on Earth since before humans. Among them, there are apparently even those who have been alive since that time. They are frighteningly long-lived, but as they are capricious, they never quite increase in number.

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cKarma

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Who cares

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Phantasial

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that is also an answer, i guess

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ArranVid

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The DBS manga and anime are both canon but I wish they weren't because DBS ruined many things that were fine in DBZ

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Comicvamp

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