Complaining about Universe 6 Saiyans (episode 100 spoilers included)

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Beast_mode999

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#1  Edited By Beast_mode999

I honestly have to ask why U6 Saiyans can't be as powerful as they are. They were already stated to have evolved from the Saiyan race that both Vegeta and Goku are from yet people are still comparing them directly to... Well... Vegeta and Goku

While I do find the 5 minute training sessions to become Ssj kind of sketchy their base power and Latent power are honestly just bashed for absolutely no reason at all. And once again this comes from people comparing them to Goku and Vegeta when they are clearly not Goku and Vegeta and are directly stated to be higher in the evolutionary chain than Goku and Vegeta

In the recent episode Kale Completely wrecked Ssb in her berserker from. I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BECAUSE

  1. Vegeta hinted that this may be the Saiyans true form
  2. This is a completely new form to Canon DBS... so why would it be impossible for Kales Latent power to be this overwhelming.

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Wolfrazer

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#2  Edited By Wolfrazer

To the first point, he could just be referring to Kale, like that's her actual thing, not a general comment about the race. Still this episode was just boring, all of that aside.

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JohnCena69swag

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Tbh I think toriyama decided to read Dragon ball multiverse and pull a few ideas for this arc. Kale seems like she was pulled right out of dbm.

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Beast_mode999

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@wolfrazer:

I can agree with it being Boring but one of the points I am trying to get across is that people are just to quick to base a new character power off of Goku.

If you can't answer why they can't be that strong then really just accept and get over it.

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Wolfrazer

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#5  Edited By Wolfrazer

@beast_mode999: Well the most obvious explanation is that...it's a Tournament with the greatest fighters from each Universe, so that right there should nix any say about that. They aren't suppose to be weak to begin with. I mean it's the same with that Iron warrior guy.

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Beast_mode999

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Tbh I think toriyama decided to read Dragon ball multiverse and pull a few ideas for this arc. Kale seems like she was pulled right out of dbm.

Toriyama has been ripping off a lot of animes lately in Super. Even a D.C. Comics References. I would not be surprised if Jiren is a direct reference to Superman.

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KeyboardThug9

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Goku probably was nowhere near his max sssjb power

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Beast_mode999

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Goku probably was nowhere near his max sssjb power

Honestly doubt it. He clearly saw Kale was walking through his beam yet didn't try to end it.

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KeyboardThug9

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@keyboardthug9 said:

Goku probably was nowhere near his max sssjb power

Honestly doubt it. He clearly saw Kale was walking through his beam yet didn't try to end it.

Wasn't kale fighting with ssj2 caulifa equally? Not sure how she went from ssj2 tier to god tier lmao then again this is super where Krillin can take a ssjb kamehameha and be perfectly fine.

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Beast_mode999

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#10  Edited By Beast_mode999

@keyboardthug9 said:
@beast_mode999 said:
@keyboardthug9 said:

Goku probably was nowhere near his max sssjb power

Honestly doubt it. He clearly saw Kale was walking through his beam yet didn't try to end it.

Wasn't kale fighting with ssj2 caulifa equally? Not sure how she went from ssj2 tier to god tier lmao then again this is super where Krillin can take a ssjb kamehameha and be perfectly fine.

Kale was never shown fighting Caulifa equally. This is the first time we saw a full powered Kale

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KeyboardThug9

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@keyboardthug9 said:
@beast_mode999 said:
@keyboardthug9 said:

Goku probably was nowhere near his max sssjb power

Honestly doubt it. He clearly saw Kale was walking through his beam yet didn't try to end it.

Wasn't kale fighting with ssj2 caulifa equally? Not sure how she went from ssj2 tier to god tier lmao then again this is super where Krillin can take a ssjb kamehameha and be perfectly fine.

Kale was never shown fighting Caulifa equally. This is the first time we saw a full powered Kale

still she shouldn't anywhere near goku.

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nilok

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@keyboardthug9: I can't place the blame for Kale being this strong on Toei, honestly, this is kind of the thing, and reason, Toriyama wakes up in the morning.

Interviewer: Do you make any use of such fan opinions in the original work?

Toryiama: I do, in the sense of “betraying the fans’ expectations”. For instance, when I got a lot of, “Don’t kill Vegeta,” I deliberately killed him. (laughs)

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RukelnikovFTW

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Goku vs Kale was almost a scene by scene copy of Goku vs Broly

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Firestorm808

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@rukelnikovftw:

I was watching it like:

Crying because of Goku - Check

Yells out Goku's name - Check

Goku is fodder - Check

Can't control power - Check

Unleashes many green ki blasts - Check

How is this not almost exactly Broly from the movie...

PS: Kale pulled a Loki on Goku, swinging him around like that

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Aimless

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I think it wouldn't be that bad if those were the power levels they were introduced with.It's not like Goku and co. got as strong as they are now in a few days.I wouldn't have a problem with U6 saiyans being as strong as even Hit,if they were that strong to begin with.Nobody is complaining about the power levels of Toppo or Jiren because they were always that strong.

The fact that a character can become so powerful in such a short time is lazy plot driven writing,and it's been done to death so much in DBS that it's no longer special

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weavile

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Rage in DBS give you more boost than zenkai kaioken blue combine. It push Trunk above blue level, then a transformation base on rage is even more effective.

if seeing Caulifa chatting with Cabba boost Kale from Krillin to SSJ Vegeta, then seeing Caulifa wanting Goku D would naturally boost Kale 1000000000000000 times more.

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ad-arts

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#17  Edited By ad-arts

What i really wonder about is why people tend to assume when Goku goes SSB he is using max power? This is silly.

Why would Goku transform to SSB? To achieve higher power than SSJ2, but higher does not mean max, now does it. Goku never goes max power from the beginning he tends to gradually increase it even facing stronger opponent. This happends so many times before, basically... Always.

There is no evidence Kale is anywhere near SSB because Goku NEVER goes full power from the start. And he just started testing her...

Where you see inconsitency i see... consistency. Goku never, ever goes full power untill the very end. It was nowhere near the end. He was testing her, like eveyrbody else so far, gradually increasing power to first match the opponent, then overpower. It is what Goku does, every time.

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MajinBlackheart

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#18 MajinBlackheart  Moderator

The U6 Saiyans have evolved further, already losing their tails, which in U7 was one of the main sources of their great power. The U6 tournament showed that Cabba was already pretty strong and Caulifla is supposedly stronger.

Honestly, Super Saiyan has lost its appeal for some time now, even since Z, and it's been devalued time and again. We may get a good transformation out of this tournament yet with Goku, probably the first with any impact or value since Gohan went SSJ2.

I also don't see why a Legendary Super Saiyan doing Legendary Super Saiyan shit is so surprising to everyone.

Also, I've never used the word before, but Caulifla is bae and I don't care if she goes SSJ10.

But if you want to drop all in-universe logic, these characters all need to be stronger to keep up or this show would be very boring. That's the simplest answer to the question.

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PhantomRant

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#19  Edited By PhantomRant

@ad-arts said:

There is no evidence Kale is anywhere near SSB because Goku NEVER goes full power from the start. And he just started testing her...

Where you see inconsitency i see... consistency. Goku never, ever goes full power untill the very end. It was nowhere near the end. He was testing her, like eveyrbody else so far, gradually increasing power to first match the opponent, then overpower. It is what Goku does, every time.

We see Kale casually walking through a SSJB Goku and then ragdolling him. You can claim he wasn't using SSJB's full power, but there's also nothing suggesting he was using anything below SSJB's normal power as otherwise he wouldn't have transformed into SSJB when he couldn't do jack to Kale. At max SSJB power, Goku may be able to beat her. But he also might not....

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KeyboardThug9

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@ad-arts said:

There is no evidence Kale is anywhere near SSB because Goku NEVER goes full power from the start. And he just started testing her...

Where you see inconsitency i see... consistency. Goku never, ever goes full power untill the very end. It was nowhere near the end. He was testing her, like eveyrbody else so far, gradually increasing power to first match the opponent, then overpower. It is what Goku does, every time.

We see Kale casually walking through a SSJB Goku and then ragdolling him. You can claim he wasn't using SSJB's full power, but there's also nothing suggesting he was using anything below SSJB's normal power as otherwise he wouldn't have transformed into SSJB when he couldn't do jack to Kale. At max SSJB power, Goku may be able to beat her. But he also might not....

He had to be holding back, if he would've went all out and killed her he would've been disqualified.

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nilok

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#21  Edited By nilok

@keyboardthug9: My guess is that Goku kept underestimating Kale's power because her power kept overflowing/growing, making it so every estimate was too low. It also makes sense that the Pride Troopers are better at using non-lethal attacks against powerfull opponents as that is what they do, which is why Jiren was able to take her out easily.

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PhantomRant

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He had to be holding back, if he would've went all out and killed her he would've been disqualified.

My problem was not whether or not Goku was holding back. It was whether or not Kale is anywhere near SSJB level, which she clearly is.

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Beast_mode999

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@beast_mode999 said:
@keyboardthug9 said:
@beast_mode999 said:
@keyboardthug9 said:

Goku probably was nowhere near his max sssjb power

Honestly doubt it. He clearly saw Kale was walking through his beam yet didn't try to end it.

Wasn't kale fighting with ssj2 caulifa equally? Not sure how she went from ssj2 tier to god tier lmao then again this is super where Krillin can take a ssjb kamehameha and be perfectly fine.

Kale was never shown fighting Caulifa equally. This is the first time we saw a full powered Kale

still she shouldn't anywhere near goku.

why not?

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Jgames

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Easy, the power of Yuri cause Kale to go beyond the limit of logic. Never mess with a girl waifu, or they turned into the devil, just take Homura as an example XD.

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ad-arts

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#25  Edited By ad-arts

@phantomrant said:
@ad-arts said:

There is no evidence Kale is anywhere near SSB because Goku NEVER goes full power from the start. And he just started testing her...

Where you see inconsitency i see... consistency. Goku never, ever goes full power untill the very end. It was nowhere near the end. He was testing her, like eveyrbody else so far, gradually increasing power to first match the opponent, then overpower. It is what Goku does, every time.

We see Kale casually walking through a SSJB Goku and then ragdolling him. You can claim he wasn't using SSJB's full power, but there's also nothing suggesting he was using anything below SSJB's normal power as otherwise he wouldn't have transformed into SSJB when he couldn't do jack to Kale. At max SSJB power, Goku may be able to beat her. But he also might not....

We see Kale casually walking through a SSJB Goku and then ragdolling him.

Again transformation does not mean max power, unless it is max power They transform to achieve greater power than without it, but greater than before, does not equal max, does it?

So what we see her casually walking through ssb? It still says nothing, why? Full power SSB is powerfull like hell, but i would assume minimum power SSB is as low power as Goku wants it to be. He obviously had to transform in order to acheive higher power than SSJ2 can generate, but he could have just as well increase it above SSJ2, slightly above... he can do that.

there's also nothing suggesting he was using anything below SSJB's normal power

Sure there is, and it is his character, it is what he does... Also, was he tired? No, he always is after max power kamehama. Hell he seemd like he did not even excercise at all.. In very good mood, happy, smiling like there was no fight just a moment ago, ready to fight Jiren. Goku used nowhere near his max power, period.

It was whether or not Kale is anywhere near SSJB level, which she clearly is.

Untill you prove Goku was using anywher near max power, no she is not. All evidence says he was not using max, even near max. Going ssb means squat. Unless you think he needed it against Krillin, or they needed it against u9, they clearly did not.

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GokuAndSuperman

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Still doesn't explain how Cabba hasn't gotten SSJ2 for a year and yet Caulifla gets it in one day ?. Seems like BS and Kale overpowering a SSJ2 Goku and surviving a SSB kamehameha is completely BS. I always wonder why they even have God Ki if SSB is just a recolor of SSJ with the same power ?? SSB was supposed to be a god form that could challenge Beerus and yet this b*tch throwing Goku around.

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Nomar

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#27  Edited By Nomar

@gokuandsuperman said:

Still doesn't explain how Cabba hasn't gotten SSJ2 for a year and yet Caulifla gets it in one day ?. Seems like BS and Kale overpowering a SSJ2 Goku and surviving a SSB kamehameha is completely BS. I always wonder why they even have God Ki if SSB is just a recolor of SSJ with the same power ?? SSB was supposed to be a god form that could challenge Beerus and yet this b*tch throwing Goku around.

Ya I think sometimes people are forgetting just how much BS is happening here. They forget that these 2 ladies have gotten stronger than anything from DBZ in under 24 hours and are encroaching on or at current tiers of high end power. It makes zero sense. All the hard work Goku and friends put in reduced to less than 24 hours and not even 24 hours in a time chamber. Just a regular 24 hours.

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The_Man_With_Questions

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The whole excuse about the U6 saiyans becoming so powerful is dumb. It was never stated that they have more potential than U7 saiyans, just that they evolved differently. That still wouldn't justify their BS power ups. If it was this easy for U6 saiyans to achieve SSJ and even SSJ2, then their entire race should've achieved it by now. Especially since when you can considered the way someone like Kale powered up. She got so powerful because she was jealous. Not special training or anything, just jealousy. Really? That's basically something that a lot of people experience on a daily basis. It's just silly. On top of that, it's just how trivial it makes everything feel. Caulifa becoming an SSJ2 really takes a dump on the progress it took someone like Gohan to achieve that form, and really it's just lazy writing to somehow make these characters keep up.

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Wolfrazer

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The_Man_With_Questions

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@wolfrazer: To be honest, I didn't like it then either. However, just because they turned SSJ didn't suddenly make them stupidly powerful. They could still arguably lose to someone like Frieza. On the other hand, Kale literally jumped up several power tiers and we haven't even seen anything notable from the character. At least with Goku we know that he has latent power, and it's shown several times throughout the series. Kale couldn't scratch fodder.

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Darkpesmerga10

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@beast_mode999: No one is mentioning the fact that Whis in the Tournament against universe 6 said powering up to SSB so soon after going SSB once causes the user to be at 1/4 of his actual power. Goku has gone SSB 3 times now in less then 15 mins. Even though i think the writers forgot they established this. Goku by the writers own canon SSB form should be really weak at this point.

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deactivated-5b2dd32201ad6

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If I can get some ultra SSJ from Caulifla I won't care if she becomes stronger than Zeno. ouo

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nilok

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kingpin1

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I believe that episode 100 shows the most powerful Kale or Caulifla will be in the tournament. Which is a relief as alot of fans already think they are too powerful. Luckily Cabba have a pretty good showing in his base form, though taking out Nigrisshi might have also been kind of bad.

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GokuAndSuperman

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This is gonna be a unpopular opinion. I think Cabba's character design is disappointing. He looks too skinny and even preteen Gohan looks bigger. They should have gave him a body similar to Tarble at least.

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deactivated-5b2dd32201ad6

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@nilok: I meant to type "some more" but thank you. c:

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Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres

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@beast_mode999: I just about get a stroke every time a new episode comes out. U6 saiyans are the offspring of the most Gary Stu of Gary Stus and the most Mary Sue of Mary sues. Hell, I bet they literally have the power to change the plot.

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DeathWingTerminatorT1000

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There is no canon reason why LSSJ cannot be this powerful even with no training, but it still kinda irks me a little and I think it undermines Blue that she tossed around Goku easily even in Blue. Remember how exited everyone was when we watched Battle of Gods, and Goku obtained a form that was seemingly almost on par with the God of Destruction? It was the biggest powerup we had ever seen in DB. Blue is even more powerful than that, and is the result of training with Whis, one of the most powerful beings in all the Universes.

But what has this form even done so far? It has been undermined again and again. Frieza obtained a form with a few months training that was more powerful, even if it could not last, and if he had trained just a bit more, he likely would have wiped the floor with everyone in RoF with no effort. And now Kale has obtained a form with virtually no training that is clearly overwhelming to SSJB, not even an even fight! I have no hype left for this form. So I am not saying that the power scaling is off, I am saying that the U6 Saiyans are making U7 ones look like a joke with how far they have progressed.

Also, Caulifla obtaining SSJ2 so easily does annoy me. I thought that obtaining that form, or even SSJ, required immense emotional pain and an insane amount of training. But apparently you just need to make your back go tingly. ffs. So Caulifla's SSJ2 actually annoys me far more than Kale, and doesn't really make any sense unless U6 saiyans are just immensely more powerful and full of potential.

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kingpin1

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My theory about saiyans from universe 6 is they have more potential but will not get zenkai boosts like saiyans from universe 7.

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DJudgment

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I don't see why she can't be this powerful tbh, we didnt complain about Hit ? Goku still has yet to defeat him ? Even at SSJ B KK x 10 level ! So why is Kale any different ? She's not a regular saiyan, she is like Frieza ! A Hybrid or phenomenon amongst her race. We need to stop thinking Goku is the most powerful fighter in all universes because he's not, he will be one day sure that's the whole story behind Goku, he finds ways to become greater that's what he's unique at, this is just another obstacle for him to overtake.

Now with regards to Caulifa, i think it's poor writing she has been able to obtain SSJ 2 at such a quick pace, it does completely kill off everything we have seen since Goku turned SSJ for the first time. It does not make sense and should not have happened. But what do you expect, this is Super through and through.

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DeathHero61

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This is gonna be a unpopular opinion. I think Cabba's character design is disappointing. He looks too skinny and even preteen Gohan looks bigger. They should have gave him a body similar to Tarble at least.

He's supposed to be scrawny looking. He doesn't seem to have much experience in general anyway. Gohan was strictly trained by Goku and Piccolo characters far above anyone that trained Cabba.

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Beast_mode999

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Still doesn't explain how Cabba hasn't gotten SSJ2 for a year and yet Caulifla gets it in one day ?. Seems like BS and Kale overpowering a SSJ2 Goku and surviving a SSB kamehameha is completely BS. I always wonder why they even have God Ki if SSB is just a recolor of SSJ with the same power ?? SSB was supposed to be a god form that could challenge Beerus and yet this b*tch throwing Goku around.

I'm honestly still looking for a decent reason it's BS Kale Can't be just that powerful. Frieza, Hit, Jiren, and Toppo have all matched SsjB so the god ki argument really doesn't hold that much weight.

@beast_mode999: No one is mentioning the fact that Whis in the Tournament against universe 6 said powering up to SSB so soon after going SSB once causes the user to be at 1/4 of his actual power. Goku has gone SSB 3 times now in less then 15 mins. Even though i think the writers forgot they established this. Goku by the writers own canon SSB form should be really weak at this point.

Wow I didn't notice that power drain. That that would really contribute how the fight went down.

@beast_mode999: I just about get a stroke every time a new episode comes out. U6 saiyans are the offspring of the most Gary Stu of Gary Stus and the most Mary Sue of Mary sues. Hell, I bet they literally have the power to change the plot.

Again why can't they be this strong.

The whole excuse about the U6 saiyans becoming so powerful is dumb. It was never stated that they have more potential than U7 saiyans, just that they evolved differently. That still wouldn't justify their BS power ups. If it was this easy for U6 saiyans to achieve SSJ and even SSJ2, then their entire race should've achieved it by now. Especially since when you can considered the way someone like Kale powered up. She got so powerful because she was jealous. Not special training or anything, just jealousy. Really? That's basically something that a lot of people experience on a daily basis. It's just silly. On top of that, it's just how trivial it makes everything feel. Caulifa becoming an SSJ2 really takes a dump on the progress it took someone like Gohan to achieve that form, and really it's just lazy writing to somehow make these characters keep up.

Cabba and Caulifa are the only transformations I have an issue with. I have no issue with Kale because her form came out of years of pure heartbreak, pain and neglect and then was finally released into that form through anger which is the key to a ssj transformation. I also don't have a problem with her transformation being that powerful because it is the first time we see that power.

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LeonardoTMNT

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@gokuandsuperman said:

Still doesn't explain how Cabba hasn't gotten SSJ2 for a year and yet Caulifla gets it in one day ?. Seems like BS and Kale overpowering a SSJ2 Goku and surviving a SSB kamehameha is completely BS. I always wonder why they even have God Ki if SSB is just a recolor of SSJ with the same power ?? SSB was supposed to be a god form that could challenge Beerus and yet this b*tch throwing Goku around.

I'm honestly still looking for a decent reason it's BS Kale Can't be just that powerful. Frieza, Hit, Jiren, and Toppo have all matched SsjB so the god ki argument really doesn't hold that much weight.

@darkpesmerga10 said:

@beast_mode999: No one is mentioning the fact that Whis in the Tournament against universe 6 said powering up to SSB so soon after going SSB once causes the user to be at 1/4 of his actual power. Goku has gone SSB 3 times now in less then 15 mins. Even though i think the writers forgot they established this. Goku by the writers own canon SSB form should be really weak at this point.

Wow I didn't notice that power drain. That that would really contribute how the fight went down.

@trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsof said:

@beast_mode999: I just about get a stroke every time a new episode comes out. U6 saiyans are the offspring of the most Gary Stu of Gary Stus and the most Mary Sue of Mary sues. Hell, I bet they literally have the power to change the plot.

Again why can't they be this strong.

@the_man_with_questions said:

The whole excuse about the U6 saiyans becoming so powerful is dumb. It was never stated that they have more potential than U7 saiyans, just that they evolved differently. That still wouldn't justify their BS power ups. If it was this easy for U6 saiyans to achieve SSJ and even SSJ2, then their entire race should've achieved it by now. Especially since when you can considered the way someone like Kale powered up. She got so powerful because she was jealous. Not special training or anything, just jealousy. Really? That's basically something that a lot of people experience on a daily basis. It's just silly. On top of that, it's just how trivial it makes everything feel. Caulifa becoming an SSJ2 really takes a dump on the progress it took someone like Gohan to achieve that form, and really it's just lazy writing to somehow make these characters keep up.

Cabba and Caulifa are the only transformations I have an issue with. I have no issue with Kale because her form came out of years of pure heartbreak, pain and neglect and then was finally released into that form through anger which is the key to a ssj transformation. I also don't have a problem with her transformation being that powerful because it is the first time we see that power.

Yea, after giving it some thought, I'm ok with Kale's power boost as well.

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Beast_mode999

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@LeonardoTMNT:

yeah it honestly makes more sense than Caulifa's transformation and people are so quick to hop on the hate on super bandwagon (which it kind of deserves) they don't take time to rationalize.

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LeonardoTMNT

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@LeonardoTMNT:

yeah it honestly makes more sense than Caulifa's transformation and people are so quick to hop on the hate on super bandwagon (which it kind of deserves) they don't take time to rationalize.

Exactly. At least with Kale, her situation is totally different than most saiyans.

I still find Caulifla's transformations to be a little suspect. But it is what it is, no amount of complaining is going to change the power scaling of DBS. We all just need to enjoy the ride, lol

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@beast_mode999: 1. They aren't Saiyans. This is about random saiyans who have never even heard about the Super Saiyan legend, unlocking the most powerful form in the universe like it's nothing. It's BS and it makes the form less special. I never said I liked Freiza. Golden Frieza is bullshit and so are all the powerups he's received.

2. Absolutely not. As time goes on Goku must fight more powerful villains and rivals, people escalating in power as the series goes on makes perfect sense. In what way do Jiren, Hit, or Toppo cheapen the form? You're making no sense. You're defending what is clearly shoddy writing and pacing. The series is far from good right now.

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#50  Edited By nilok

@trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsof:

To be fair, these aren't random Saiyans, these are the strongest Saiyans of Universe 6. Also, as we've found out, Super Saiyan requires a high base power to unlock, but isn't that special past that. Super Saiyan God fits your description much better and is far more powerful. If the Saiyans of Universe 7 didn't destroy their home planet, they may have been closer to the Universe 6 Saiyans. The Super Saiyan form lost its "special-ness" in the Buu Saga when Vegeta said, "What is this, a Super Sayian Bargain Sale?" which from what I remember from Toriyama's interviews was intentional.