My team has a lot of chemistry having teamed up and fought against each other numerous times, they know how the other will react in a number of situations, the TP link they have will allow them to: 1. Give them a greater level of fludity to their actions being able to share their tactical data and fighting experiences and 2. Adjust their strategy on the fly without alerting either Aang or Danny as too their plans.
My team is bloodlusted; Spider-Man and Logan will both be attacking with everything they have; This is especially important for Peter; when he is bloodlusted Spider-Man has been shown to become nothing short of a beast.
Full Knowledge ensues; My team knows about the Vibranium suit Aang has, he needs his glider to fly and that his hands and feet are required for his bending (minus airbening) to work.
The environment favors my team; Spidey and Logan are both very very comfortable fighting in an urban enviroment; Spider-Man's well known ability to traverse such an environment will also give my team a mobility advantage; Logan's enhanced senses and Peter's Spider Sense will allow them to locate your team before your team locates mine, making ambush a very real possibility.
My team has a lot of chemistry having teamed up and fought against each other numerous times, they know how the other will react in a number of situations, the TP link they have will allow them to: 1. Give them a greater level of fludity to their actions being able to share their tactical data and fighting experiences and 2. Adjust their strategy on the fly without alerting either Aang or Danny as too their plans.
My team is bloodlusted; Spider-Man and Logan will both be attacking with everything they have; This is especially important for Peter; when he is bloodlusted Spider-Man has been shown to become nothing short of a beast.
Full Knowledge ensues; My team knows about the Vibranium suit Aang has, he needs his glider to fly and that his hands and feet are required for his bending (minus airbening) to work.
The environment favors my team; Spidey and Logan are both very very comfortable fighting in an urban enviroment; Spider-Man's well known ability to traverse such an environment will also give my team a mobility advantage; Logan's enhanced senses and Peter's Spider Sense will allow them to locate your team before your team locates mine, making ambush a very real possibility.
ok, here it goes
Match ups
The match ups that are going to emerge as this battle takes place are: Wolverine vs Iron Fist and Aang vs Spider Man. This is mainly because of how these characters will behave in this terrain. First of all, bloodlusted or not, it is in character for Aang to use his glider to take to the skies. This makes him the fastest character on his team, as far as travel speed goes. He is most likely to reach a half way point where he would encounter someone on the other team long before Iron Fist would. Same goes for Spiderman. It is completely in character for him to take the higher ground and utilize web swinging the same way that he does in New York city. This also makes him the fastest character on him team, and most likely to encounter his opponents first. Iron Fist and Wolverine are both slow in comparison the their team mates. Not only that, but they both have to stick to the low ground. They have no methods of getting around besides running. So seeing how Aang and Spiderman are both the fastest on their teams, and the people most likely to take the higher ground, its is almost certain that they will be squaring off, with Iron Fist and Wolverine duking it out on the low ground.
Terrain
I would have to disagree with you saying that Spiderman and Wolverine have the terrain advantage.
First of all, Spiderman has a obvious familiarity with cities. He fights crime in one every day. He is used to the buildings. However, Aang is used to the city building's too. He has been to ba sing se, many times, where he has effortlessly ran along roof tops and along the sides of buildings. He has shown the ability to use air bending in order to scale the walls of these buildings as well. Aang fought and moved through the city like terrain's of the city Omashu. The demonstrated the ability to jump from rooftop to rooftop and has phenomenal mobility in these urban environments.
That is Omashu above. As you can see many tall buildings and streets, very similar to the arena that they are fighting in now. Aang spent a lot of time in his childhood free running in cities such as this one. Another thing is, Aang has a mobility advantage in the air, and on the ground. In the air, he can fly. This is an automatic advantage against someone who is limited to swinging on webs. On the ground, he has moved "faster than the wind." He has moved so fast that Fire nation Gaurds could hardly see him.
Spiderman, however, does not have an advantage against a bloodlusted Aang. The is mainly due to the fact that that every buidling in the picture above is made out of earth, rock, or a product of rock, which can all be earth bended. Once Aang realizes how Spidey gets around (something very likely as he will probably fly above the buildings) He can move the buildings the webbing is attached to with earth bending. Or, cut the webbing using water bending/ air bending. Or, melt the webbing with fire bending. As long as Aang can see where Spidey is moving from, he is able to stop his movement. Peter will also have a hard time scaling walls because of Aangs earth bending.
I believe that Iron Fist has a small advantage over Wolverine in an urban environment. This is because 1. Iron Fist has ranged, concussive attacks, and 2. Iron Fist has shown the ability to bring buildings down with simple strikes. Why this benefits him is, because if Wolverine tries to close distance, he can hit him before he gets in close using Chi blasts. This means Danny can attack Wolverine before Wolverine even gets into close quarters. For my second point, if the match does go inside of a building, into close quarters, Danny can bring the building down on wolverine. He has done this in order to take out multiple targets a couple of times.
Oh, and i don't think it is extremely likely that Wolverine will be able to sneak up on/ambush wolverine. Danny has fought sabertooth while blinded, relying on his other senses alone, showing that his hearing is phenomenal. he also has the reaction time to counter any sneak attacks that wolverine has up his sleeve.
Chemistry
Your team takes this, lol, however i think my team makes up for it in the other areas.
The actual battle
Spiderman vs Aang
I think that this goes Aangs way, in a great battle. When they are bloodlusted, these two are both monsters.
Aang has an advantage with ranged attacks. He has the power to keep Spiderman at a distance while pounding him with all of the 4 types of bending. he has many different ways that he can put down Peter. He has shown the ability to K.O. or even kill Spiderman with almost all of his bending. Using earth bending, he can move and throw pieces of earth that cover large areas and can probably level buildings. He was able to puncture tank armour using bending. He can trap peter in earth structures, throw his balance off by shifting the ground, walls and ceilings, and hit him with heavy attacks of earth straight from the ground. One of these strikes has the ability to kill a human being.
His air bending will also be hard for Spidey to get around. And it is probably his most powerful form of bending. He has shown airbending ability sufficient enough to K.O. someone with Spiderman Level durability. Using a single kick he was able to completely destroy a rock that was larger than Appa, who weighs around 10 tons. He can make tornadoes, and send battle tanks flying with ease. He not only has the power to throw Spiderman around, but he also has the power to K.O. him, even while bloodlusted.
Water bending wont be much use in this environment, however, if he does come across a source of water he can do more than enough damage to hurt Spiderman. With water bending, he has cut through steel reinforcements and pierced the hull's of armoured ships. While bloodlusted, meaning that Aang's morals don't apply, he can leave Spiderman with severed limbs, and stab wounds. he can also drown him if the source of water is large enough.
Finally, Aang's fire bending cant melt webbing and essentially light peter on fire. It acts a a concussive force, so it can be used to push Peter back aswell. I think that this form of bending should speak for itself. He can light peter on fire, and burn him to a crisp.
The point of all that is, Aang has many methods of putting peter down where as Peter is limited to only a few options in order to KO Aang. He can try to close distance on him, or he can try to pin him down with webbing and cryo pellets. Spiderman can't close distance on Aang because Aang has so many ways of pushing him back, and attacking him from a distance. In order for Peter to make it a close quarters match, he would have to disable Aang's flying ability, and get past his plethora of ranged attacks. I don't think that this is very likely due to the fact that when Aang is bloodlusted, all of his attacks have more than enough stopping power behind them to push back, and put down Spiderman. Peter's only ranged attacks are webbing and pellets. I dont think it is likley for either of these to work because of the fact that Aang's defences are too strong. using air bending, he has been able to stop attacks from "combustable man" who has the ability to cause explosions using telekinetic blasts. These blasts could cover quarries and could destroy rock pillars with ease. Aang could block them by simply using air bending so i don't see how he would allow webbing to get anywhere near him. His earth bending shields have been able to take multiple hits from the Phoenix King, at point black range, while Sozin's comet was in the air. I don't see any way that pellets, or webbing is getting anywhere near Aang.
Wolverine vs Iron Fist
I personally think that Iron Fist wins this for the majority. ESPECIALLY since he isn't holding back. Let me elaborate.
Through out the years Wolverine has fought Sabertooth many times. He has beaten Sabertooth, they have stalemated, and Sabertooth has beaten him. The point is, they are very close very equal match ups. Iron Fist has beaten Sabertooth, morals on, while temporarily blinded. He couldnt see a thing, and he still managed to K.O. him, something that Logan has struggled to do while Logan was in full health. ABC logic.
Aside from this Iron Fist has combat speed that is equal to, or greater than that of Wolverine. The Martial skill to keep up with him easily, and Striking power sufficient enough to K.O. Logan in one hit, especially when he isn't holding back. Danny has hit the helicarrier hard enough to completely destroy it, so that it crash-landed. He has KO'ed a drunkened Hercules (who has exchanged blows with World breaker Hulk). He has obliterated an Electro magnetic bullet train in one punch, and sent Colossus flying. Since he is bloodlusted, and not holding back, every strike he throws will be like this. Combine this, with his speed and martial skill, and i see Danny taking the majority.
Once Danny beats Logan, has can assist Aang in any way that he can.
Sorry if this was really long, i figured i mine as well break down why i think my team wins right from the beginning.
Your team takes this, lol, however i think my team makes up for it in the other areas.
I think you are underestimating the importance of having a cohesive unit; your team don't know each other, Iron Fist is a bit of a lone wolf, Aang; not so much. Aang will be willing to trust Danny, Danny probably will be a bit more hesitant since you opted out of the teamwork add on, their teamwork will be compromised this will tie into a point I'll make in a minute.
Knowledge: Danny has prior knowledge of both Logan and Spidey as they do of him from their time together on the New Avenger's this doesn't help Aang though how quickly will he share his knowledge with Aang though and how long will it take him to convey anything useful for Aang to capitalize on?
The teams are only a mile and a half apart, I have two excellent trackers on my team (these abilities will come into play in a little bit) who are adapt at navigating city-scapes and they know everything about your team, whereas you have one member who will have to convince the other he is an ally and be willing to share his knowledge with.
While they are discussing strategy or hammering out cohession they are wasting time, If you want your team to move as a unit Aang is going to have to convince Danny to ride on the back of his glider with him; more time wasted for your team; more time for my team to get into position.
Honestly I'm comfortable having either one of my guys engage either of yours and I see why you chose Aang to go against Peter he seems to be a good match for Spidey and on paper that's true but but in actuality he's actually his worst match up, Aang has a lot of problems in this match up: Here they are:
Spidey Vs Aang
Reaction Speed
This is going to be Aang's largest problem, he doesn't have reaction feats anywhere near Spider-Man's making him vulnerable to the blitz,imo at best he has peak human reaction; Spidey's reactions are 40 times faster than a normal persons, even if you wanted to be super gnerous and say Aang had double or triple or even ten times(this is just to illustrate a point) normal Human reactions he's still slower than Spidey on a magnitude of degrees. The their is the fact that Peter is a casual bullet dodger, I haven't seen any bending attacks (besides lightning which Aang can't do and has a host of problems as well) that come anywhere near the speed of a bullet, Aang's not gonna tag Spidey unless he wants to be tagged.
The Spider Sense
Aang has absolutely no answer to the Spider Sense. Peter's going to be reacting to Aang while he's still moving his hands, feet etc. avoiding the attacks before they are launched.
Bending
Firebending: Arguably Aang's weakest bending art is ineffective here for a couple reasons: Spider-Man's webbing is flameproof Aang will not know this though, he will try to firebend ( as you indicated earlier) and it will cost him with either being webbed up and or being hit by a cryo cube ensuring Spidey's victory.
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Earthbending: Earthbending isn't going to be very effective here; one as Toph stated Earthbending is all about the stance, he can't earthbend in the air, he can't Earthbend unless he is contact with Earth; if this battle takes place on anything but a stone rooftop he Aang will not have the ability to bend Earth. Any rocks he may launch will be much, much too slow to hit a man capable of casually dodging bullets.. Aang has never shown the level of Earthbending that would let him shift a sky scrapper outside the Avatar state (and even in is debatable), I'm not sure Toph or Bumi could and they're both stronger Earthbender's than he is.
The is mainly due to the fact that that every buidling in the picture above is made out of earth, rock, or a product of rock, which can all be earth bended. Once Aang realizes how Spidey gets around (something very likely as he will probably fly above the buildings) He can move the buildings the webbing is attached to with earth bending. As long as Aang can see where Spidey is moving from, he is able to stop his movement. Peter will also have a hard time scaling walls because of Aangs earth bending.
And as for using the buildings maybe that was true in Omashu where everything was carved from stone, but take another look at that picture above, this a modern city made of: Glass, Steel, Iron, Plastic, Fiberglass, Titanium, Composite's, Wood etc. none of which Aang can bend. Not even mentioning that his Spider Sense would alert him to any danger or attack Aang was attempting before it got off.
Waterbending: Aang doesn't have any source of water to bend here. Just as a note; his waterbending through metal took him and Katara and a considerable amount of effort on both of their parts.
Air bending-This is going to be Aang's best bet unfortunetly I don't see his bending being fast enough to tag Spidey, Spider-Man is also capable of making his webbing Air tight (it's how he makes parachutes etc.) he can make a web shield and block Aang's attacks or he can bind Aang's feet and hands together and his mouth and nose, effectively cutting off his bending and his air supply suffocating him. Should Aang wish to take it to the skies Aang's flight isn't anything Peter hasn't dealt with before in the Hobgoblin, Green Gobin, Vulture, etc. Spidey can easily fight in the air or on the ground.
He has shown airbending ability sufficient enough to K.O. someone with Spiderman Level durability.
Who? I never recall seeing anyone on ATLA with anywhere close to Spidey's durability
Using a single kick he was able to completely destroy a rock that was larger than Appa, who weighs around 10 tons
Appa's weight has never stated it was said a full grown Sky Bison can weigh up to 10 tons we have no idea how much Appa weighed and a ten ton rock? that's nice and all Spidey has tanked blows from foes well above 10 ton striking force (more details below).
Cryo pellets and Webbing
Webbing- Aang doesn't have the physical strength to break Spider-Man's webbing, he can't melt it, it has give to it so wether he can cut it with an air blade is debatable. It can be made airtight and then Aang is in trouble.
Cryo pellets- Aang's already shown vulnerability to ice in the past (the iceberg and all that) and Spidey has cryo pellets with him as his standard gear, his Spider sense will allow him to know where Aang is, there is nothing stopping him from launching one at Aang, freezing him either in air, or on the ground, letting him plumet to his doom or shattering him with a punch and boom Aang's toast. But what about waterbending right? Well there are a few problems with that, Aang's never been shown to waterbend without movement before, he's shown a vulnerabiluity to freezing in the past and perhaps most important the cryo cube was designed with water manipulators (Hydro Man) in mind. Quick background but Hydro Man has shown far greater control over water than Aang has; if the cube held him, I don't see any reason it can't hold Aang.
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Bloodlust
Spiderman, however, does not have an advantage against a bloodlusted Aang.
Aang has the one showing in the desert of him bloodlusted outside the Avatar state, the rest of his bloodlusted showing are in the Avatar State; I saw nothing in that episode to suggest there is a noticeable difference in Aang being bloodlusted vs his normal state of mind; his bending seemed the same level, the way he applied it was different. Spider-Man on the other hand has shown that when he's fighting all out he is able to surpass the limits of his powers time and again, here is such an example:
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He's got tons and tons of these showings
Durability
Peter's ability to soak damage is legendary he's tanked hits from Juggs, Hulk, Morlun, Rhino, Phoenix Force Collosus... the list goes on and on. He tak hits and keeps coming back for more when any normal person would have keeled over. A rock is not going to knock him out, a strike that can break a ten ton rock doesn't have nearly equal to the force of any of the people I listed.
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Regardless of how he does it I don't see this fight lasting more than a couple minutes... Peter wins via incap with webbing, freezing or Death by freezing and then shattering.
Wolverine VS Ironfist
Aside from this Iron Fist has combat speed that is equal to, or greater than that of Wolverine. The Martial skill to keep up with him easily, andStriking power sufficient enough to K.O. Logan in one hit, especially when he isn't holding back
Debatable, partially correct and wrong.
I'd actually give Logan the Speed advantage in this contest regardless though neither can claim enough of a speed advantage that'll it'll decide this fight in either's favor, if you'd like though we can go feat for feat; it'll more than likely end with Logan having the slight speed advantage I claim.
In terms of fighting ability, it's virtually dead even Danny may hold a slight advantage here but like the speed above it's not enough to swing it in either one of their favors.
And that last one I'm gonna say no. Just to recap Logan has tanked blows from the Hulk (Grey, Savage and WWH), Juggernaut, Colossus, Namor, The Thing, Windigo etc. Danny is not taking him down in one shot, bloodlust or not. Here are a couple durability showings for Logan:
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Logan on the other hand has the ability to one shot Danny, a claw strike through the heart, head etc.,
Through out the years Wolverine has fought Sabertooth many times. He has beaten Sabertooth, they have stalemated, and Sabertooth hasbeaten him.The point is, they are very close very equal match ups.Iron Fist has beaten Sabertooth, morals on, while temporarily blinded.
Doesn't apply here for a couple reasons; Wolverine and Sabertooth are two different characters albeit with similar abilities but Danny's fight with Sabertooth has zero bearing on this contest, those scan while interesting aren't applicable here; both Logan and Danny have their morals off for this fight
He couldnt see a thing, and he still managed to K.O. him, something that Logan has struggled to do while Logan was in full health. ABC logic.
I'm just going to say generally you should avoid using ABC logic on this forum as much as you can, it's a fallacy.
Any fight between Danny and Logan (regardless of who wins) is going to take time, they are much to evenly matched, this favors my team in a couple ways; One Logan's Healing Factor is going to keep him in peak fighting form much longer than Danny (He fought Omega Red for seventeen hours non stop) he can tire Fist out, (this will happen faster if Danny is commiting fully to every strike as you said in your strategy) and take a kill shot. Two Aang does not have the capability to hang with Spidey for any length of time(I'll get into that in a moment) and as such Danny will soon be facing a two on one, he might stalemate with Logan, he would lose outright to Spidey and fighting the two of them, telepathically communicating and bloodlusted is a slaughter stomp.
I believe that Iron Fist has a small advantage over Wolverine in an urban environment. This is because 1. Iron Fist has ranged, concussive attacks, and 2. Iron Fist has shown the ability to bring buildings down with simple strikes. Why this benefits him is, because if Wolverine tries to close distance, he can hit him before he gets in close using Chi blasts. This means Danny can attack Wolverine before Wolverine even gets into close quarters.
I'll get into this down below.
For my second point, if the match does go inside of a building, into close quarters, Danny can bring the building down on wolverine. He has done this in order to take out multiple targets a couple of times.
First off we can't go into buildings, secondly that'd be stupid of him, Logan has a healing factor, he doesn't I can tell you who's going to get the worse end of that one.
Oh, and i don't think it is extremely likely that Wolverine will be able to sneak up on/ambush wolverine. Danny has fought sabertooth while blinded, relying on his other senses alone, showing that his hearing is phenomenal. he also has the reaction time to counter any sneak attacks that wolverine has up his sleeve.
You are greatly underestimating Wolverine's stealth ability;
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Their are a couple ways this fight goes down and all of them end with Peter and or Logan winning:
Scenario 1: Our teams are at their starting locations, Logan already knowing Danny's scent and being in an unpopulated city picks up on it quickly. Spidey thinks to Logan to grab on, Logan grabs on an Spidey proceeds to swing them to where your team is attempting to come to an agreement on how to proceed, Aang is trying to convince Danny to ride on his glider and or Danny is telling Aang about Logan and Peter, my guys sneak attack them, what I listed above in the indvidual fights happens here although your guys are at the disadvantage of being caught off guard, that is a huge advantage for my guys (specifically Logan in the Iron Fist matchup)
Winner Spidey/Wolvie
Scenario 2: You have Aang flying around separately as you indicated in your earlier post, Spidey and Logan are still together as in scenario 1 (Logan may not be familiar with Aang's scent but as the only scent in the town, that he doesn't know he should still be able to track him just fine and even if he couldn't Peter's Spider Sense can). He is either ambushed or taken out by either Logan, Peter or both, they then track down and deal with Iron Fist.
Winner: Spidey/Wolvie
Okay so I posted a bunch let me know if you I missed any of your rebuttal points and if you want scans to back up anything I said, I can provide proof for everything I claimed.
Their are a couple ways this fight goes down and all of them end with Peter and or Logan winning:
Scenario 1: Our teams are at their starting locations, Logan already knowing Danny's scent and being in an unpopulated city picks up on it quickly. Spidey thinks to Logan to grab on, Logan grabs on an Spidey proceeds to swing them to where your team is attempting to come to an agreement on how to proceed, Aang is trying to convince Danny to ride on his glider and or Danny is telling Aang about Logan and Peter, my guys sneak attack them, what I listed above in the indvidual fights happens here although your guys are at the disadvantage of being caught off guard, that is a huge advantage for my guys (specifically Logan in the Iron Fist matchup)
I think that this strategy is absurd. here are the problems with the strategy you have listed here.
1. Spiderman and Wolverine have a history of not getting along, they never have. Logan has always been condescending and rude to peter, where as peter is always snapping back at him with his witty attitude. Having a cohesive team means very little if they do not get along in the first place. There would be a lot more arguing and bickering on your side than there would be on mine.
2. Wolverine, while bloodlusted rejects teamwork. Wolverine has always been a "lone wolf" kind of guy, someone who wants to get the job done, and do it by himself. If you honestly think that he will let Peter swing around while carrying him? you can forget about it. Wolverine would never be carried by Spiderman, thats not in character for him.
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None of their encounters suggest that they will get along. Unless you prove that Wolverine and Peter can get along and work as a team, i see absolutely 0 possibility of this strategy actually working. From what i have seen, Peter and Logan are extremely unlikely to act as the "cohesive team" that you speak of, if anything, the TP link will provoke more commotion than before.
3. Neither Aang, or Danny have shown anything that would lead me to believe that they would not work together as a team. First of all, Danny hardly ever rejects teamwork. He is almost always paired up with someone, or with an entire team. He knows how to work with other people, and he is by no means a "lone ranger" type like Wolverine is. Aand has been with a team throughout his entire series. He is seen always solving other peoples conflicts and trying to spread team work and companionship. He is hardly ever alone. These two wouldn't fight NEARLY as much as Logan and Peter would.
I see this entire scenario as completely inconceivable and very unlikely to occur at all.
Winner Spidey/Wolvie
Scenario 2: You have Aang flying around separately as you indicated in your earlier post, Spidey and Logan are still together as in scenario 1 (Logan may not be familiar with Aang's scent but as the only scent in the town, that he doesn't know he should still be able to track him just fine and even if he couldn't Peter's Spider Sense can). He is either ambushed or taken out by either Logan, Peter or both, they then track down and deal with Iron Fist.
Once again, there is absolutely no way that an in character Wolverine will ever let Peter carry him, across a city and then into a battlefield. So i don't see this strategy working from the very start.
I have serious doubts that either Spiderman, or Wolverine will be able to sneak up on either one of my characters. They both have skills and abiliies that directly contradict the possibility of an ambush, or a sneak-attack.
For starters, Aang became a master of earth bending after his teachings with Toph. With his skills, he also gained the ability to sense movements through the ground from several feet away. In order for Logan to get close, he will need to be in physical contact with the ground. He can't fly, or swing from webs, thus granting Aang the ability to see him coming before he gets too close.
Unfortunately, video is needed from youtube, i can't find legit video, due to copyright youtube laws. So, watch this, from 1:50 on. Aang dodges many strikes and is able to sense every movement his opponents make, even from a distance. It doesn't matter how proficient you are in the area of stealth, if your footsteps cause even the slightest vibration on the ground Aang will be able to see you coming. So in essence, Wolverine can’t fly or swing, Aang will be able to hear him coming before he gets in close at all.
Peter can’t sneak up on Aang either. This is based off of the fact that it isn’t in character for Aang to walk around the ground, especially in a city with tall buildings. He will be flying, probably above the buildings, so that he has a bird’s eye view. He did this in Ba Sing Se, Omashu and the Island of Kiyoshi.
Because Aang will have a bird’s eye view from above, and the fact that Peter can’t get above the buildings, it is very unlikely that he will be able to sneak attack him at all.
Iron Fist
Neither of them will be able to sneak attack Danny either. This is because of his phenomenal senses that have been heightened as a result of his martial arts training.
Danny has had his senses heightened to the point where he is able to hear people sweating. This is phenomenal because of the fact that sweat makes little to no noise at all. Both Peter and Logan have heartbeats, and make bodily movements that produce sounds just as every normally human being would. Danny will be able to hear them coming before they get in too close. He has also tagged war machine, fighting him while he was in stealth mode. This meant that he was completely invisible to the eye, no normal human being could see him. Danny effortlessly threw strikes that were able to damage war machine, even while he was in this mode.
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Danny’s senses are too great for either of these characters to actually sneak up on him. They both make bodily movments and have heart beats that are alot louder than sweating, and he was able to clearly hear someone sweat. He will be able to hear them both coming before they get a chance for an ambush or a sneak attack.
Winner: Spidey/Wolvie
Okay so I posted a bunch let me know if you I missed any of your rebuttal points and if you want scans to back up anything I said, I can provide proof for everything I claimed.
Due to my lack of sleep recently, I've fallen under the weather, I'm going to try to catch up on my sleep tonight. I really appreciate you waiting patiently for my response. I am only going to debunk your strategies right now, tomorrow i will cover the rest of the debate so DONT respond to this one yet. Thanks for waiting, the rest will be up tomorrow night.
@Sovereign91001: I think you are underestimating the importance of having a cohesive unit; your team don't know each other, Iron Fist is a bit of a lone wolf, Aang; not so much. Aang will be willing to trust Danny, Danny probably will be a bit more hesitant since you opted out of the teamwork add on, their teamwork will be compromised this will tie into a point I'll make in a minute.
Logan and peter have never been the “cohesive team” that you speak of. As I mentioned before, there is constant fighting and arguing that goes on any time that these two are together.
Both of my team members are phenomenal at getting along with others. They are almost always in teams. Even with a telepathic link, my team still has a greater ability to act as a team.
Knowledge: Danny has prior knowledge of both Logan and Spidey as they do of him from their time together on the New Avenger's this doesn't help Aang though how quickly will he share his knowledge with Aang though and how long will it take him to convey anything useful for Aang to capitalize on?
Actually, in the knowledge department we aren’t lacking too much. The OP stated that characters have the knowledge of who the other characters are, and what their powers are. Danny has prior knowledge too.
While they are discussing strategy or hammering out cohession they are wasting time, If you want your team to move as a unit Aang is going to have to convince Danny to ride on the back of his glider with him; more time wasted for your team; more time for my team to get into position.
Aang will never try to convince Danny that he should fly on the back of his glider. He only does this a few times in the entire series, and in every single one of instances, it has been to avoid danger, or a rescue
I stated that the matchups would be this way because it is in character for each of these characters to behave in such a manner. It is in character for Aang to fly above the buildings, it is in character for Spiderman to swing through the buildings and it is in character for both Danny and Logan to take to the ground fighting. It is not, and never will be in character for Wolverine to be carried by Peter, and it is not in character for Aang to carry Danny.
Spiderman vs Aang
This is going to be Aang's largest problem, he doesn't have reaction feats anywhere near Spider-Man's making him vulnerable to the blitz,imo at best he has peak human reaction; Spidey's reactions are 40 times faster than a normal persons, even if you wanted to be super gnerous and say Aang had double or triple or even ten times(this is just to illustrate a point) normal Human reactions he's still slower than Spidey on a magnitude of degrees. The their is the fact that Peter is a casual bullet dodger, I haven't seen any bending attacks (besides lightning which Aang can't do and has a host of problems as well) that come anywhere near the speed of a bullet, Aang's not gonna tag Spidey unless he wants to be tagged.
You are making it seem like peter is untouchable, when in reality, he isn’t. In almost every encounter with the rhino, he is tagged and hit, and Rhino is MUCH slower than Aang is. Actually, almost everyone that you listed in peter’s durability category is slower than Aang.
Once Aang actually sees how fast Peter is, it won’t be too hard for him to begin using attacks that Peter can’t dodge. There are several instances where Aang has used attacks with range wide enough that Peter cant dodge them.
Watch from 21:30 and on, Aang’s attack covers a distance that Peter could cover, while pushing back several tons of magma.
Appa's weight has never stated it was said a full grown Sky Bison can weigh up to 10 tons we have no idea how much Appa weighed and a ten ton rock? that's nice and all Spidey has tanked blows from foes well above 10 ton striking force (more details below).
Even the attack where he was able to destroy a 10 ton boulder with a single strike had a very wide range too it. And about that speculation, Aang stated several times that Appa is a 10-Ton sky bison, and you don’t believe him? Yet Peter states that he has reflexes 40 times that of an average human being and it is golden truth? If something that Peter says is truth about his reflexes, then why might something that Aang says be a speculation, therefore disproven? Aang tells one lie through out the entire series, and that is to solve a conflict between two tribes that have been bickering for decades.
This isn’t dodging bullets, these are very wide attacks of Earth, Fire and Air that peter can’t get away from.
Webbing- Aang doesn't have the physical strength to break Spider-Man's webbing, he can't melt it, it has give to it so wether he can cut it with an air blade is debatable. It can be made airtight and then Aang is in trouble.
Cryo pellets- Aang's already shown vulnerability to ice in the past (the iceberg and all that) and Spidey has cryo pellets with him as his standard gear, his Spider sense will allow him to know where Aang is, there is nothing stopping him from launching one at Aang, freezing him either in air, or on the ground, letting him plumet to his doom or shattering him with a punch and boom Aang's toast. But what about waterbending right? Well there are a few problems with that, Aang's never been shown to waterbend without movement before, he's shown a vulnerabiluity to freezing in the past and perhaps most important the cryo cube was designed with water manipulators (Hydro Man) in mind. Quick background but Hydro Man has shown far greater control over water than Aang has; if the cube held him, I don't see any reason it can't hold Aang.
Earthbending: Earthbending isn't going to be very effective here; one as Toph stated Earthbending is all about the stance, he can't earthbend in the air, he can't Earthbend unless he is contact with Earth; if this battle takes place on anything but a stone rooftop he Aang will not have the ability to bend Earth. Any rocks he may launch will be much, much too slow to hit a man capable of casually dodging bullets.. Aang has never shown the level of Earthbending that would let him shift a sky scrapper outside the Avatar state (and even in is debatable), I'm not sure Toph or Bumi could and they're both stronger Earthbender's than he is.
It is true, Toph did say this about earth bending, but that isn’t what the evidence suggests. In Aang’s final fight with Firelord Ozai, he throws multiple earth bending attacks while on the move and jumping to and from different stone pillars. He has performed Earth bending while on the fly, and while moving.
Firebending: Arguably Aang's weakest bending art is ineffective here for a couple reasons: Spider-Man's webbing is flameproof Aangwill not know this though, he will try to firebend ( as you indicated earlier) and it will cost him with either being webbed up and or being hit by a cryo cube ensuring Spidey's victory.
Fire might not be able to melt webbing, but it can easily block it, as can air, and earth. Fire bending is not only a means of burning and melting someone; it is a concussive force as well. This is shown every time a fire bender encounters an earth bender. They are able to block earth bending attacks by simply using fire bending.
Earth speaks for itself, as it is a solid, and solids can block webs or cryo pellets, Aang has been able to earth bend fat enough that he can block arrows with it, and attacks from other benders.
There is no way that webbing or cryo pellets can get past Air. In Aang’s fight with combustible man, he blocks a telekinetic blast with the capability to level canyon walls. Webbing has never shown that it has the force to do anything like this, and thus, can be blocked by an air bending move.
Look at 0:30 to 0:56, Aang block his attacks using simple air blasts, I don’t see any way of webbing or cryo pellets getting anywhere near Aang.
Peter's ability to soak damage is legendary he's tanked hits from Juggs, Hulk, Morlun, Rhino, Phoenix Force Collosus... the list goes on and on. He tak hits and keeps coming back for more when any normal person would have keeled over. A rock is not going to knock him out, a strike that can break a ten ton rock doesn't have nearly equal to the force of any of the people I listed.
Finally, I am well aware of peter’s phenomenal durability, and I didn’t say that Aang could KO him in one hit, im saying that with striking power like his, he will be able to wear Peter down until he is KO’ed.
Aang has more than enough stopping power in his long ranged attacks to keep Peter at a distance, and is Peter can’t get close, there is no way he can win this fight. He will everutally we worn down by Aang’s attacks, and will be KO’ed (in time).
The way i see it, the fight will be long, but it will consist entirely of Aang making Peter's ranged attacks look useless, and then using his own ranged attacks to keep Peter at a distance, while pounding him with the 4 elements. Peter's durability will only prolong the inevitable, and that is the fact that Peter won't get close to Aang, and Aang will slowly wear down Peter.
Once again, thanks for being patient, I'm going to catch up on some more sleep, ill post Iron Fist vs Wolverine sometime tomorrow, so DONT respond to either of these yet. Thanks for waiting, the final argument will be up tomorrow.
@Sovereign91001: I'd actually give Logan the Speed advantage in this contest regardless though neither can claim enough of a speed advantage that'll it'll decide this fight in either's favor, if you'd like though we can go feat for feat; it'll more than likely end with Logan having the slight speed advantage I claim.
Really? lets go feat for feat then. From what i have seen Wolverine doesn't have speed that is on the same level as Danny. I would say the exact opposite of what you are saying the difference not being very significant, well i think that it is. Wolverine has been a bullet dodger, sometimes, alot of times he is hit by gunfire. But Danny can actually move faster than bullets, and dodge attacks that move much faster than gunfire. Logan is inconsistent bullet timer, Danny is a consistent bullet timer with micro second reaction speed.
And that last one I'm gonna say no. Just to recap Logan has tanked blows from the Hulk (Grey, Savage and WWH), Juggernaut, Colossus, Namor, The Thing, Windigo etc. Danny is not taking him down in one shot, bloodlust or not. Here are a couple durability showings for Logan:
Yes, a bloodlusted Danny could one-shot Logan. And, for now, i will leave you with two feats to prove this point. You Said it yourself, Spiderman has taken hits from phoenix force colossus, hulk, juggs and countless others. Well, on one occasion, Danny one-shotted Peter. He actually punched right through him (morals off danny). Secondly, Wolverine has taken hits from World War Hulk, well, Hercules has exchanged several blows with World Breaker Hulk, who is arguably Hulk's most powerful incarnation. Once again, Danny was able to put Hercules down with one punch.
Gallery
Doesn't apply here for a couple reasons; Wolverine and Sabertooth are two different characters albeit with similar abilities but Danny's fight with Sabertooth has zero bearing on this contest, those scan while interesting aren't applicable here; both Logan and Danny have their morals off for this fight.
Fine, i see what you are saying, it wouldn't be the same as fighting Wolverine. Well, i saved this for now, but Danny actually fight Logan, and then eventually Logan, Colossus and Nightcrawler. Note how Wolverine can't touch him, neither could Nightcrawler. On a side not, he also punches collosus and sends him flying, just another demonstration of striking power.
Gallery
Any fight between Danny and Logan (regardless of who wins) is going to take time, they are much to evenly matched, this favors my team in a couple ways; One Logan's Healing Factor is going to keep him in peak fighting form much longer than Danny (He fought Omega Red for seventeen hours non stop) he can tire Fist out, (this will happen faster if Danny is commiting fully to every strike as you said in your strategy) and take a kill shot. Two Aang does not have the capability to hang with Spidey for any length of time(I'll get into that in a moment) and as such Danny will soon be facing a two on one, he might stalemate with Logan, he would lose outright to Spidey and fighting the two of them, telepathically communicating and bloodlusted is a slaughter stomp.
As i stated before, the TP link wont do too much. Thanks for waiting.
Here comes part 1 of my rebuttal...it's late and I'll do the rest in the morning, but I didn't want to go to bed without posting something so without further ado...
Spiderman and Wolverine have a history of not getting along, they never have. Logan has always been condescending and rude to peter, where as peter is always snapping back at him with his witty attitude. Having a cohesive team means very little if they do not get along in the first place. There would be a lot more arguing and bickering on your side than there would be on mine.
Logan and Peter’s team up history is long and varied; he’s teamed up with him individually and with the X-Men and new Fantastic Four. In addition to that they are both on the Avengers and New Avengers so they have experience working together. They also have scuffled in the past, they may not be the best of friends but they are friends and they have mutual respect for each other. A lot of tension (as you just illustrated with your scan) is because of their different moral code, Wolverine is a killer and Spider-Man is not, this is not an issue in this team up; they are both bloodlusted and willing to kill so this point of contention is no longer valid. Here is another team up with them Spider-Man even saying that he is Logan’s friend and Logan displaying his trust in Peter. You'll notice that once again the problem comes from having Logan about to kill again this is not a problem.
Gallery
You yourself admitted in your first post that my team has more chemistry than your own so I’m not sure while you’re retracting it now and given that Esquire has said that team chemistry matters I wouldn’t have picked two characters and not have given them the team symmetry add on if I didn’t think they wouldn’t be able to work together as a cohesive unit. I disagree, given their history The TP link would only make them a more effective unit; they already know how the other fights, they both have vast pools of experience they can individually draw on, that pool is now shared; they are now plugged into each other’s senses this makes them even more deadly…Peter can focus his spider sense like a radar and as long as they stick close together Spider-Man’s Spider sense essentially become Logan’s…Logan’s hyper senses essentially become Spider-Man’s.
Wolverine, while bloodlusted rejects teamwork. Wolverine has always been a "lone wolf" kind of guy, someone who wants to get the job done, and do it by himself. For a guy who rejects teamwork while bloodlusted ie; willing to kill (most of the time) he sure has been on a lot of teams: The X-Men, Team X, The New Avengers, Avengers, Uncanny Avengers, X-Force, etc. Wolverine may be a loner but he is just as comfortable on a team as he is being a solo guy.
Once Aang actually sees how fast Peter is, it won’t be too hard for him to begin using attacks that Peter can’t dodge. There are several instances where Aang has used attacks with range wide enough that Peter cant dodge them. Once Aang actually sees how fast Peter is, it won’t be too hard for him to begin using attacks that Peter can’t dodge. There are several instances where Aang has used attacks with range wide enough that Peter cant dodge them.You are making it seem like peter is untouchable, when in reality, he isn’t. In almost every encounter with the rhino, he is tagged and hit, and Rhino is MUCH slower than Aang is. Actually, almost everyone that you listed in peter’s durability category is slower than Aang.
First that's a bad example; Rhino is not only faster than he looks he even has a degree of superhuman speed, Aang does not. If memory serves Aang's speed showings are because of his airbending. Secondly Spidey's capable of dealing with opponets with faster reactions than him as well, Speed Demon and Quicksilver come to mind. Aang on the other hand has trouble tagging Azula most of the time and she has normal human reactions and no precognitive battle sense...how on Earth is he going to tag someone who can move with high level Superhuman reflexes vastly faster than anyone he's ever combated and knows when he's going to attack and how to avoid it? Pure and simple Aang is outclassed he's gonna get (maybe) one shot and then he's going down...Likely what will happen Aang will try to bend (doesn't matter the element) Peter will be moving while Aang is still waving his hands/ staff.... and boom webs or cryo cube...doesn't matter which.
This set of scans were posted by @Strider92 from the "Badass Moment's" thread on comicvine.
Next up we have a set of scans I used in a recent CaV, showing Spidey Catching a bullet while he is sick!
I can go on but Spidey has so many instances of him dodging bullets, lasers looking, not looking etc. it's not even funny, Aang doesn't have a single attack he can launch faster than a bullet and even if he had one that fast Spidey can move faster than a bullet. A guy with normal or peak human reactions isn't going to stop a Spidey who's not holding back from blitzing him with webs and or a cryo cube. I'm not even sure Aang would be able to track Spidey if he's going all out.
Part 2 will be coming sometime in the morning so please hold your rebuttal until then, thank you!
@CalebHara: Here's part two apologies for the tardiness...since I recently (see this afternoon) learned how to condense everything with Spoiler tags I'm going nuts with them, but I think for a post this long it kinda needs them lol :)
with the scans you showed a couple of things should be noted: 1. Logan and Iron Fist had never met before, 2. Logan was not using even a fraction of his skill in that encounter, he bull rushed his opponent. 3. Iron Fist himself admits he can't take Logan out and has to resort to tossing him out a window. Below is (to my knowledge) their only fight since then it should be noted that they are both training, clearly neither one was fighting to their fullest.
You'll notice that Danny says he was fighting at a number less than Logan although to me that seems slightly facetious and Logan's off hand "Right" seems to support that as well. Regardless this is closer to how a fight between them would go as opposed to that first encounter, you posted. Going hold for hold, blow for blow. But I hear you say Logan is bloodlusted, he won't be fighting at the same skill he is here when he's calm... to that I will say for this tournament the bloodlusted state doesn't not effect the mindset or emotional state of the fighters just removes their hesitancy to kill. So Logan will have killing intent without being in a feral/beserker state. Logan knows from this encounter, the one you listed and their time on The New Avengers together, how dangerous Danny is, he will not bullrush an opponent like Danny he would fight him in a manner consistent with this training exercise above. Hence my reasoning saying any fight between them, is going to take some time.
The problem with Logan is while he is perfectly capable of dodging bullets, oftentimes though he'll just rely on his healing factor to bull rush through mooks and take them down, he's only inconsistent because of choice not because of skill. Anyway Logan has more than enough Speed to keep up with Danny again they're more or less even I'd still give a slight edge to Logan but again it's not enough to swing this either way.
Yes, a bloodlusted Danny could one-shot Logan. And, for now, i will leave you with two feats to prove this point. You Said it yourself, Spiderman has taken hits from phoenix force colossus, hulk, juggs and countless others. Well, on one occasion, Danny one-shotted Peter. He actually punched right through him (morals off danny). Secondly, Wolverine has taken hits from World War Hulk, well, Hercules has exchanged several blows with World Breaker Hulk, who is arguably Hulk's most powerful incarnation. Once again, Danny was able to put Hercules down with one punch.
So Logan tanks WWH-> Hercules tanks WBH-> Danny One shots Herc ergo Danny One shots Logan? Couple of problems:
Once again your using ABC logic and again it's a fallacy; http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/abc-logic/634991/ Read the first couple of posts there: Using that Same Logic Spider Man beats on Herald level characters or to use your example Danny hits harder than WBH (A Planet Buster), if that's what your trying to say I'm sorry but I don't buy it, Danny doesn't have feats that put him anywhere near WBH's power. Danny hit's hard no doubt but WBH is in another League. And I call PIS on that, everytime Spidey and Danny have faced each other Danny's been on the losing end.
Spidey is handling Danny just fine despite Danny having a homefield advantage and setting up traps...in fact the only time Danny is able to tag Spidey is after Spidey let's his guard down and their other older fight is floating around here somewhere on Comicvine and Danny wasn't able to do much to him then either.
Anyway onto Aang's seismic sense in scenario one (that episode The Runaway is probably one of my faves in the series) Aang’s seismic sense works through his earthbending, if he’s on a material he can’t earthbend he can’t use it, This is consistent with Toph noting that she can’t ‘see’ when the Gaang is flying on Appa or when they were attempting cross the ice at the Serpant’s Pass. It is also limited by material that absorbs vibrations such as sand. If the roof your team is on is made out of anything other than something Aang can bend his seismic sense won’t work. It should be noted that we have seen Aang use seismic sense twice in canon, both times he was barefoot; this is consistent with it being an Earthbending technique and Earthbender’s often forgo shoes to remain in contact with the ground, specifically Toph who taught him how to use seismic sense complained how shoes interfere with her ability to percieve the world. While this is S.O.P for an Earthbender for the vast majority of the series Aang’s feet are covered in shoes. What we can extrapulate from this is a few things;
One Aang’s ability to use seismic sense is now in questionas he’s never been canonically shown using it with his feet in shoes.
Two if an argument for his seismic sense being used while his feet are covered can be made (I don’t think one can be ftr) the sensitivity of Aang’s seismic sense (which should be much less developed than Toph’s) would be greatly diminished at the start of the battle.
Three; the argument that Aang can just take his shoes off can be made, however even before being the Avatar Aang is an airbender, he thinks like an airbender, he moves like an airbender etc. How likely is it that Aang would take off his shoes at the start of a battle against opponents he has only the most basic of knowledge on and has no idea how they’ll attack. I’d say highly unlikely, he’s never shown approaching any battle thinking like an earthbender first.
Four; my team is aware of Aang’s seismic sense prior to engaging him and will attack accordingly and even if Aang were able to seismically sense when my guys land on their rooftop given both of my guy's speed and leaping ability it'd do Aang little good, it won't take either more than a second or two to be all over your guys.
As for scenario two:
As per the tournament rules Aang will have a basic list of Spidey’s powers; this does not include his webbing, and even if Danny told him about it, he doesn’t know the range of it either, there is nothing stopping Spidey and Logan from hiding under the lip of a roof and waiting for Aang to float by, snag him with a web line and go to work on him.
That leaves Iron Fist who as I said before would have problems dealing with either one on one and has zero chance imo of beating them both at the same time.
I'm pretty sure I got everything so, there you go, looking forward to your rebuttal. Thanks for the patience!
Here is my closing statement, thanks to my opponent @CalebHara for a good debate, it was fun and best of luck to you in the coming votes. For my closer I'm gonna put up some Spider sense/dodging showings as I realize that I haven't put up any for Spidey, just to further accent my point that Peter should be able to outpace Aang and take him out.
Another Durability and another Spidey going all out showing
Lastly to all voters please remember your not just voting for who you think would win in the fight but also who you believed conducted a better debate. I know for some of you that doesn't need to be said but for those who may be newer to how these are run. I neglected to say this in a recent debate and just thought it'd be best to clarify that point before voting was undertaken. @Esquire that's it for me I'm done for this one!
This has been one of the best battles I have ever seen. Its so close I may have to just flip a coin. With that said, could I get a summary after final arguments stating why you think you team should win. You guys put up alot of scans so cliff notes would be great as a refresher
I think my team has greater chemistry, given their team ups over the years, the removal of Spidey's willingness to kill has removed a large bone of contention between them and they should be an (even more) effective team
I think Spider-Man (especially not holding back) is far too fast for Aang to hit (in terms of combat reflexes).
I don't think Aang has an attack in his repitore that is fast enough to tag Spidey.
I believe Aang's lack of knowledge and experience fighting a character with Spidey's mobility are going to be huge deciding factors
I don't believe Aang has an answer to the Spider Sense.
I believe that the tools Spider-Man has at his disposal; webbing and cryo pellets, give him an advantage over Aang (specifically he doesn't have the strength to break the webbing, he can't burn it and has shown a vulnerability to ice in the past)
I believe that the environment greatly favors Spider-Man's fighting style but also vastly limits Aang's bending options (two, arguably three of his bending arts have been largely negated).
I think that Spider-Man has shown time and again when he's not holding back he's one of the deadliest street level characters in comics and his showings put him above Aang.
I think Wolverine and Iron Fist are pretty much evenly matched, I think Danny holds a slight edge in Fighting Skill and Logan a slight edge in Speed.
I think Logan's durability is too great for Danny to one shot Logan, the reverse can not be said.
I believe a fight between these two is going to take time; going hold for hold and blow for blow. This is a negative factor for Danny as I think Spidey can incap Aang quickly.
I think as the fight wears on Iron Fist will wear out and Logan's stamina and durability will keep him in the fight longer, ultimately I think those factors would grant Logan a win, however I believe Aang will be down fairly quickly so I think Iron Fist would be facing a two on one, to which he has no chance of winning.
I'm going to assume I can vote now, since Esquire said voting would be open Friday evening.
In my opinion, this was probably the most entertaining of battles. There wasn't too much talk of any strategy. Just a classic analysis on who'd win if so and son fought. It was different than most tourney debates that way in my opinion. The debaters seemed to be pretty evenly matched as well. CalebHara definitely held his own, but I'm gonna give the win to Sovereign91001. He was just a smidge better in just about everything. He countered a little better, his logic was a little better, and he had plenty of scans to backup his claims, whereas Caleb had few compared to him.
Damn, oh well, thank you @Sovereign91001 for the great debate. Thanks for being polite and civil, especially for my first time doing a debate like this.
So can anybody vote or do you have to be a member of the tournament?
If the latter then just ignore this lol
I think the battle goes to CalebHara. I was on the fence about who would win when I saw the match up, but I think he did a better job convincing me his team would win.
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