Darth Plagueis (Silver) vs Darth Maul & Darth Tyranus (Nova)

• This is TPM Maul and RotS Dooku.
• Standard equipment for all.
• Regular morals and mindsets apply.
• Random encounter. No prep.
• Victory via death.
• Battle takes place on the stone fields of Tosste.
• Combatants begin twenty meters apart.

Much as I love Maul I think Plaugueis takes this. He's more powerful than Palpatine and was said to have become so strong he could prevent death. He'd take Maul out quickly and Dooku would follow soon after. Just too much power for the two of them to handle.

This should be very good. :]

This will be a fantastic debate.

He's more powerful than Palpatine and was said to have become so strong he could prevent death.

@Silver2467: I wasn't implying it would be useful in practical terms in the battle I was just using that to iterate his superior grasp of the force which obviously would come in handy and I'l debate wherever I like thank you very much ;).

@Silver2467: Right. Sorry for the delay, I was eating lunch.

I'll dissect my argument into three parts:

Lightsaber Combat: I'd say my team has the advantage. Plagueisdoesn't have too many lightsaber feats, and Venamis doesn't really have good feats, so defeating him isn't really a plus. Maul has defeated Qui-Gon, who alone presents a challenge to Plagueis. Dooku himself has held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously, and can also hold his own against Mace Windu, Savage Opress and Ventress simultaneously, or even Yoda (for some time). I highly doubt Plagueis would be able to defeat both of these combatants simultaneously, given how one of them alone would cause him to exert at least a fair amount of effort to fight against.

Looking at physical attributes, Plagueis has shown to be able to run through a forest (while duelling Venamis) and at such speed the light of his lightsabers would have seemed to be a thunderbolt to an onlooker. It should also be noted that was in a forest, and that the speed could be slightly greater here, but obviously not to the extent that it overwhelms either of Plagueis' combatants. Plagueis also has a fairly good level of strength, sending people flying and kicking through others' torsos, but that's not sufficient to overwhelm either Maul or Dooku. Maul has also kicked through people's torsos, and Dooku has held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time despite Anakin rushing him with the Force of a meteor strike, which is above what Plagueis has shown.

Force Powers: Here is where Plagueis most dangerous, and he could arguably defeat either of my team in a Force battle. Telekinetically, Plagueishas supported collapsing mine ceiling, caused the ground to shake to a sufficient magnitude to knock down multiple people, broken Tenebrous' neck, and so on. I believe Silver would agree with me that Plagueis would be roughly evenly matched in a telekinetic fight with Yoda, and neither Yoda nor Dooku could defeat each other in a display of telekinesis. Thus, I don't see any reason as to why Plagueis should be able to win via sole usage of telekinesis. It might have its uses, but it clearly isn't swinging the battle in Plagueis' favour so easily.

Plagueis can project Lightning over a fairly long distance, and reduce bones to dust with it, but I don't see his Lightning being of sufficient power to be incapable of being deflected by a lightsaber. Dooku alone has sent Sora Bulq, Anakin, Savage Opress and Ventress flying with Lightning, so Plagueis doesn't have the advantage there.

Plagueis could probably utilize other Force Powers, but they would only have minimal effect IMHO. Plagueisisn't capable of utlizing Illusion during a fight, and Scream is involuntarily used, so it most likely won't come up in this fight. Plagueis can use Barrier or Tutaminis to deflect Dooku's lightning, or deflect it with a lightsaber, so neither Plagueis nor Dooku are going to do well against each other using Lightning. Plagueishas run in a blur to a droid that could dodge blaster bolts, and Maul can also run in a blur (albeit perhaps not to Plagueis' extent) and Dooku should be able to do the same. Attempts to blind each other won't have much effect, Dooku alone has seen three Nighsisters (one of which was Ventress) while drugged and then subsequently held his own against all three of them simultaneously in a duel.

So there doesn't seem to be an advantage in terms of Force Power that Plagueishas. However, Force Cloak/Concealment might have its uses here. Both Maul and Dooku has applied it before, while Plagueishas been able to minimize his presence in the Force, which is indeed impressive. But considering the open area around here, it wouldn't be so useful to the extent where Plagueis can simply strike down either of his opponents without them noticing.

Overall: Considering my team's rough equality to Plagueis in terms of Force Power and superiority in Lightsaber Duelling, they should be able to win, and approximately 7-8/10.

Adding Savage won't be necessary unless the fight goes in your favour.

You just got bored waiting, didn't you Silver?

@JediXMan said:

You just got bored waiting, didn't you Silver?

He sure did.

Lightsaber Combat: I'd say my team has the advantage. Plagueis doesn't have too many lightsaber feats, and Venamis doesn't really have good feats, so defeating him isn't really a plus. Maul has defeated Qui-Gon, who alone presents a challenge to Plagueis. Dooku himself has held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously, and can also hold his own against Mace Windu, Savage Opress and Ventress simultaneously, or even Yoda (for some time). I highly doubt Plagueis would be able to defeat both of these combatants simultaneously, given how one of them alone would cause him to exert at least a fair amount of effort to fight against.

Plagueis watched as droid after droid was impaled on the opposing crimson blades. “It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won’t deny his mastery of the Jar’Kai technique.” Again, he turned to Sidious. “Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice.”

Looking at physical attributes, Plagueis has shown to be able to run through a forest (while duelling Venamis) and at such speed the light of his lightsabers would have seemed to be a thunderbolt to an onlooker. It should also be noted that was in a forest, and that the speed could be slightly greater here, but obviously not to the extent that it overwhelms either of Plagueis' combatants.

Plagueis also has a fairly good level of strength, sending people flying and kicking through others' torsos, but that's not sufficient to overwhelm either Maul or Dooku. Maul has also kicked through people's torsos, and Dooku has held his own against Anakin and Obi-Wan at the same time despite Anakin rushing him with the Force of a meteor strike, which is above what Plagueis has shown.

Others Plagueis felled with his hands by snapping necks and putting his fists through armored torsos.

The wait lasted only until Plagueis attempted to unleash lightning. His second subsidiary heart failed, paralyzing him with pain and nearly plunging him into unconsciousness. The assassins wasted not a moment, throwing themselves at him in groups, though in a vain attempt to penetrate the Force shield he raised. Again he rallied, this time with a ragged sound dredged from deep inside that erupted from him like a sonic weapon, shattering the eardrums of those within ten meters and compelling the rest to bring their hands to their ears.
In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and windpipes.

But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't seem to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike. Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle.

neither Yoda nor Dooku could defeat each other in a display of telekinesis. Thus, I don't see any reason as to why Plagueis should be able to win via sole usage of telekinesis. It might have its uses, but it clearly isn't swinging the battle in Plagueis' favour so easily.

A few meters away Plagueis, hurled face-first to the ground by the intensity of the vaporizing blast, lifted his head in time to see the underside of the domed ceiling begin to shed enormous slabs of rock. Directly below the plummeting slabs sat their starship.
“Master!” he said, scrambling to his feet with arms lifted in an attempt to hold the rocks in midair.
His own arms still raised in a Force-summoning posture, Tenebrous swung around to bolster Plagueis’s intent. Behind him, the fireball’s final flames surged from the mouth of the tunnel to lick his back and drive him deeper into the grotto.
The cave continued to spasm underfoot, sending shock waves through the crazed ceiling. Cracks spread like a web from the oculus, triggering collapses throughout the grotto. Plagueis heard a rending sound overhead and watched a fissure zigzag its way across the ceiling, sloughing layer after layer of stone as it followed the grotto’s curved wall. Now, though, it was Tenebrous who was positioned beneath the fall.
And in that instant Plagueis perceived the danger Tenebrous had foreseen earlier: his death.
His death at Plagueis’s hands.
While Tenebrous was preoccupied holding aloft the slabs that threatened to crush the ship, Plagueis quickly reoriented himself, aiming his raised hands at the plummeting slabs above his Master and, with a downward motion of both arms, brought them down so quickly and with so much momentum that Tenebrous was buried almost before he understood what had hit him.
Stone dust eddying around him, Plagueis stood rooted in place as slabs interred the starship, as well. But he gave it no thought. His success in bringing the ceiling down on Tenebrous was proof enough that the Bith had grown sluggish and expendable. Otherwise, he would have divined the true source of the danger he had sensed, and Plagueis would be the one pressed to the floor of the grotto, head cracked open like an egg and chest cavity pierced by the pointed end of a fallen stalactite.

Again he squinted into the light pouring in through the oculus. Not even his power in the Force was enough to carry him from the floor and up through the grotto’s unblinking eye. Nothing short of a jetpack would do, and the ship didn’t carry one. His gaze drifted from the oculus to the grotto’s curving walls. He supposed he could spider his way along the arched underside of the dome and reach the eye, but now he saw a better way. More, a way to accomplish two tasks at the same time.
From a spot mid-distance between the ship and rubble pile beneath the oculus, he immersed himself in the Force and, with gestures not unlike those he and Tenebrous had used in arresting the ceiling collapse, began to levitate slabs from the ship and add them to the rubble heap, stopping only when he had both exposed the hatch of the ship and was confident he could Force-leap through the oculus from atop the augmented pile.
When he tried springing the hatch, however, he found that it wouldn’t budge. He was ultimately able to gain entry to the cockpit by assailing the transparisteel canopy with a series of Force blows. Worming his way inside, he retrieved his travel bag, which contained a comlink, his lightsaber, and a change of clothes, among other items. He also took Tenebrous’s comlink and lightsaber, and made certain to erase the memory of the navicomputer. Once outside the ship, he peeled out of the enviro-suit and blood-soaked tunic, trading them for dark trousers, an overshirt, lightweight boots, and a hooded robe. Affixing both lightsabers to his belt, he activated the comlink and called up a map of Bal’demnic. With scant satellites in orbit, the planet had nothing in the way of a global positioning system, but the map told Plagueis all he needed to know about the immediate area.
He took a final look around. It wasn’t likely that an indigene would have reason to investigate the grotto, and it was even less likely that another interstellar visitor would find this place; even so, he spent a moment regarding the scene objectively. A partially crushed but costly and salvage-worthy starship. The decomposed body of a Bith spacefarer. The aftermath of an explosive event... The scene of an unfortunate accident in a galaxy brimming with them.
Satisfied, Plagueis leapt to the top of the pile, then through the roof into the remains of the day.

Plagueis paused in narrow-eyed reflection. “It was one of the few times I saw my Master outmaneuvered. But he didn’t set his sights on revenge—not immediately, at any rate. Once in production, the starship met with such success that Kerred Santhe was able to acquire a controlling interest in Sienar Technologies and Republic Sienar Systems. Only by agreeing to an arranged marriage between his youngest daughter was Sienar’s president, Narro, able to retain his position as chief designer. By then, though, Narro had entered into a secret partnership with Tenebrous, and the time had come to settle scores.”
Plagueis moved as he spoke.
Damask Holdings was in its infancy, but I had already earned a reputation among the galaxy’s elite, and so received an invitation to attend a design conference on Corulag, which was then headquarters not only for Sienar Technologies but for Aether Hypernautics, Danthe Artifice, and a dozen other corporations. The guest speaker was the Senator representing the Bormea sector, and many luminaries from Coruscant, Corellia, and Kuat attended. From distant Lianna came Kerred Santhe and his young and unhappy wife, supported by an entourage of retainers and Santhe Security guards. I was seated at a table directly across from him, and the menu specialty that night was bloateel. Have you ever tasted it, Sidious?”
“As a teenager. At a gala hosted by House Palpatine.”
“Then you know that the creature is one of the most poisonous to be found in the galaxy. The preparation is both dangerous and exacting, as the creature must be skinned while alive to guard against its toxins infiltrating the flesh. Needless to say, nothing enlivens a banquet like the prospect of near-instant death, and the hall could barely contain the anticipation as individual portions were served.
“I waited to act until I saw Santhe chewing his first bite.”
Plagueis brought the thumb and forefinger of his left hand close together, and Sidious, taken by surprise, felt his throat close. He gasped for breath.
“Yes. Just so you have an understanding of what Santhe must have felt.” Plagueis opened his fingers and Sidious inhaled deeply, his face flushed and his hands stroking his throat.
“Only then I kept the pressure on until his face began to turn red, his hands flew to his throat, his muted calls for help brought everyone around him out of their chairs. I think his bulging eyes might have found mine when I finally pinched his trachea closed completely. Of course, medtechs had been standing by in the event of just such an emergency—Ithorians, if I recall correctly, armed with doses of antitoxin and medicines to counter the effects of anaphylactic shock. But none did the trick that night, for the dark side of the Force had Santhe in its grip and no drug or resuscitation technique was equal to the task of keeping him alive.”

The wait lasted only until Plagueis attempted to unleash lightning. His second subsidiary heart failed, paralyzing him with pain and nearly plunging him into unconsciousness. The assassins wasted not a moment, throwing themselves at him in groups, though in a vain attempt to penetrate the Force shield he raised. Again he rallied, this time with a ragged sound dredged from deep inside that erupted from him like a sonic weapon, shattering the eardrums of those within ten meters and compelling the rest to bring their hands to their ears.
In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and windpipes. He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians. He spun through a turn, dragging the wave halfway around the room to kill half a dozen more.

With nothing more than the Force of his mind, Plagueis rattled the floor, knocking some of the assassins off their feet, but others rushed in to take their places, slashing at him with their vibroblades from every angle.

For no sooner had the blades of their weapons clashed than Venamis began to bring the fight to him in unexpected ways, twirling his surprisingly limber body, tossing the lightsaber from hand to hand, mixing forms. At one point he leapt onto an overhanging greel branch and, when Plagueis severed it with a Force blow, hung suspended in the air—no mean feat in itself—and continued the fight, as if from high ground.

Others Plagueis felled with his hands by snapping necks and putting his fists through armored torsos. Spreading his arms wide, he clapped his hands together, turning every loose object in the vicinity into a deadly projectile.

Dooku alone has sent Sora Bulq, Anakin, Savage Opress and Ventress flying with Lightning, so Plagueis doesn't have the advantage there.

The lightsaber had scarcely left the Muun’s grip when Wandau flew from cover to bring the attack to the Muun, triggering his blaster as ceaselessly as Maa Kaap was still doing. This time, though, the Muun merely stretched out his right hand and absorbed the bolts. Traveling up the length of his arm and across his narrow chest, the energy seemed to fountain from the hand awaiting the return of the spinning weapon as a tangle of blue electricity that hissed from his tapered fingers, catching Wandau full-on and lifting him to the ceiling of the hold before dropping him to the puddled deck in a heap, as if his bones had turned to dust.

Plagueis could probably utilize other Force Powers, but they would only have minimal effect IMHO. Plagueis isn't capable of utlizing Illusion during a fight, and Scream is involuntarily used, so it most likely won't come up in this fight. Plagueis can use Barrier or Tutaminis to deflect Dooku's lightning, or deflect it with a lightsaber, so neither Plagueis nor Dooku are going to do well against each other using Lightning.

Plagueis has run in a blur to a droid that could dodge blaster bolts, and Maul can also run in a blur (albeit perhaps not to Plagueis' extent) and Dooku should be able to do the same.

The Woebegone had just reverted to realspace when 11-4D’s audio sensors registered unusual sounds from aft: an activation click, a prolonged hiss of energy, a dopplering slash, a stuttering exhalation of breath. The sounds were followed by a sudden outpouring of heat from the corridor that accessed the cargo bays and what might have been interpreted as a gust of wind. Only by adjusting the input rate of its photoreceptors was the droid able to identify the blur that raced into the cabin space as a male Muun dressed in a hooded robe, trousers, and softboots that reached his shins.

Slowly surrendering energy, the bolts caromed from the deck and bulkheads, touching off alarms, prompting a switch to emergency illumination, and unleashing cascades of fire-suppressant foam from the ceiling aerosols. No sooner had the Balosar and the Dresselian entered the cabinspace than hatches sealed the corridors, preventing any escape from the melee. Only 11-4D’s ability to calculate trajectories and react instantaneously to danger kept it from being on the receiving end of any of the numerous ricochets.

On Hypori they were the prey, standing back-to-back in their black zeyd-cloth hooded robes at the center of concentric rings of droids, retrofitted by Baktoid Armor to function as combat automata. Two hundred programmed assailants—bipedal, treaded, some levitated by antigrav generators—armed with a variety of weapons, ranging from hand blasters to short-barreled burst-rifles. Plagueis hadn't allowed his young apprentice to wield a lightsaber until a few years earlier, but Sidious was brandishing one now, self-constructed of phrik alloy and aurodium, and powered by a synthetic crystal. Made for delicate, long-fingered hands—as much a work of art as a weapon—the lightsaber thrummed as he waved the blade from side to side in front of him.
"Every weapon, manufactured by whatever species, has its own properties and peculiarities," Plagueis was saying, his own blade angled toward the ferrocrete floor of the battledome's fabricated cityscape, as if to light a fuse. "Range, penetrating power, refresh rate... In some instances your life might depend on your ability to focus on the weapon rather than the wielder. You must train yourself to identify a weapon instantly—whether it's a product of BlasTech or Merr-Sonn, Tenloss or Prax—so that you will know where to position yourself, and the several ways to best deflect a well-aimed bolt."
Plagueis put his words into action as the first ring of droids began to converge on them, staggering the attack and triggering bursts at random. Orbiting Sidious, the Muun's blade warded off every volley, returning the bolts to their sources, or deflecting them into the facades of the faux buildings surrounding them or into other droids. At other times Plagueis made no attempt to redirect the attacks, but simply torqued his rangy body, allowing the bolts to miss him by centimeters. Around the two Sith, the automata collapsed one after the next, gushing lubricants from holed reservoirs or exploding in a hail of alloy parts, until all were heaped on the ferrocrete floor.
"The next ring is yours," Plagueis said.
Rugged, uninhabited Hypori belonged to the Techno Union, whose Skakoan foreman, Wat Tambor, owed his seat in the Republic Senate to Damask Holdings. In exchange, the bionic humanoid had made Hypori available as a training ground for members of the Echani Sun Guard and provided the necessary battle droids. Calling in another favor, Hego Damask had requested a private session in the fabricated cityscape, so that Plagueis and his apprentice could be free to employ lightsabers—though only for the purpose of deflecting bolts rather than dismemberment or penetration.
When it came Sidious's turn to demonstrate his skill, Plagueis spoke continuously from behind him, adding distraction to the distinct possibility of inadvertent disintegration.
"A being trained in the killing arts doesn't wait for you to acquire him as a target, or establish him or herself as an opponent, as if in some martial arts contest. Your reactions must be instantaneous and nothing less than lethal, for you are a Sith Lord, and will be marked for death."
The droids continued to converge, ring after ring of them, until the floor was piled high with smoking husks. Plagueis issued a voice command that brought the onslaught to an abrupt end and deactivated his lightsaber.The pinging of cooling weapons, the hiss of escaping gas, the unsteady whir of failing servomotors punctuated the sudden silence. Alloy limbs spasmed and photoreceptors winked out, surrending their eerie glow. The recycled air was rotten with the smell of fried circuitry.

To Plagueis, lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotion and needless acrobatics. Tenebrous, however, who had pronounced Plagueis a master of the art, had always enjoyed a good fight, and had clearly bequeathed that enthusiasm to his other trainee. For no sooner had the blades of their weapons clashed than Venamis began to bring the fight to him in unexpected ways, twirling his surprisingly limber body, tossing the lightsaber from hand to hand, mixing forms. At one point he leapt onto an overhanging greel branch and, when Plagueis severed it with a Force blow, hung suspended in the air—no mean feat in itself—and continued the fight, as if from high ground. Worse for Plagueis, Tenebrous had made Venamis an expert in Plagueis’s style, and so the Bith could not only anticipate but counter Plagueis’s every move. In short order, Venamis penetrated his defenses, searing the side of Plagueis’s neck.
The contest took them backward and forward through the trees, across narrow streams, and up onto piles of rocks that were the ruins of an ancient sentry post. Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of the contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest’s understory.

Attempts to blind each other won't have much effect, Dooku alone has seen three Nighsisters (one of which was Ventress) while drugged and then subsequently held his own against all three of them simultaneously in a duel.

Overall: Considering my team's rough equality to Plagueis in terms of Force Power

and superiority in Lightsaber Duelling

I'm glad to see Silver again. Nice debate so far gents.

@Silver2467 said:

Defeating Venamis certainly is a good feat. Venamis' lack of combat feats is insufficient to disregard the example as a notable showing because Venamis was trained by Tenebrous in all of the equivalent lightsaber techniques and principles that Plagueis was and was acclimated in them to the effect that he could counteract any of Plagueis' tactics and standard styles. Plagueis still managed to overwhelm and disarm Venamis in spite of this. Regarding Qui-Gon, presenting a challenge to Plagueis doesn't really mean anything to me. Venamis would present a challenge to either Dooku or Maul; so I fail to see what articulating that is supposed to convey (the point is more of a red herring than anything). I harbor no objections to the fact that Maul and Tyranus possess a greater wealth of combat showings, but to suggest outright that the two are so obviously superior to him is reaching. The fact is that what information we do have on Plagueis' fighting abilities does suffice to draw the fair conclusion that Plagueis is adroit as a combatant. Can we esteem him as parallel to Maul or Dooku definitively? No. But in this case, we're not required to because of Plagueis' many other advantages over them. This is also ignoring Plagueis' propensity for analysis in combat, which resembles Maul's to a degree. He is by no means a master tactician or strategist but is adept in his attention to detail, which is part of how he handled Venamis. Dooku, however, is not known for his strategic adaption and generally prefers a combination of Makashi with Dun Moch. Dun Moch, however, should prove next to useless in modifying the outcome against Plagueis, who has expressed familiarity with the art. Should Plagueis start to be taxed during a lightsaber battle with the two, his methodical approach to battle, in addition to his other advantages, should supplement him well enough, and this is setting aside the fact that I don't believe enough material has been presented to relegate Plagueis to a low fighting status. All we know is that he is very combatively skilled. As skilled as Maul or Dooku? Difficult to say. Would he struggle against the two. I believe so, but you would also be underestimating him profusely to suggest he isn't capable of ascertaining many wins against your pair.

I think some of this is a bit stressed. Venamis was trained by the same master of Plaguis (Tenebrous) in the same techniques and so on, but we don't even know to what degree, exactly. All we know is that he is adroit with those duelling techniques. The only thing that shows is that Plagueis was forced to exert himself and adapt to the situation. However, I have not seen Plagueis duel two enemies simultaneously with great success, so it might be a tad bit more difficult to adapt in this type of situation. Plagueis is also fighting two enemies simultaneously in this scenario, and with his usage of Jar'Kai it is possible that his split strength in each hand is not as great.

Adding Savage in, we have a person whose sheer force of attack has pushed back Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously. Savage has also faired well against Ventress, even disarming one of her lightsabers. Obviously Savage alone isn't too much of a threat to Plagueis (Dooku himself said Savage's technique was sloppy, though he may have improved since then, but to what extent I cannot say).

Sure enough, but Plagueis' speed edge is noticeable. The fact is that neither Dooku or Maul have the combat speed showings to imply they can match Plagueis' speed. Would he overwhelm them by speed alone? No, but his speed does supersede theirs, and this point shouldn't be overlooked. It affords Plagueis the chance to level an otherwise impossible circumstance by virtue of striking more quickly than his opponents can deliver their blows, could enable him to react to strokes with improved efficiency, and in alliance with his lightsaber proficiency could allow him to connect strokes where he might not without it.

It seems like you're making him vs. them separately one-on-one. This isn't the case, and with both Dooku and Maul pushing him (and Savage, in the bonus) Plagueis would have a hard time using his speed to grant a noticeable advantage, though I am mainly speaking of the bonus round. Unless you're saying that Dooku or Maul can fight against Plagueis, and together (especially with Opress) Plagueis' speed advantage isn't doing him too much good.

Anakin's strength showings are not above Plagueis' at all, and Maul's are not either. Maul has sent his foot into a person's torso with a kick before, but he has never struck through a person's chest and out their back. Plagueis has done that, and he did so against fully armored Maladians, during which he also smashed the skulls of helmeted Maladians, all of which occurred while Plagueis was injured. Quite honestly, I fail to see how this wouldn't play a part, given that Dooku has buckled under the striking power of both Anakin and Yoda before, neither of whose physical showings exceed that of Plagueis'. Regarding Maul, he has met the match of his own strength against the weight of Qui-Gon's blows, and Qui-Gon is definitely not in Plagueis' physical league. Plagueis' titanic physical power, both of speed and striking force, is definitely high enough to make a difference here.

I never said anything about them being above. They don't necessarily have to be above, just approachable. And once again, it doesn't matter if Yoda's/Anakin's physical strength is not superior to Plagueis, it is almost equal, and as a result, the greatest burden Dooku would have to shoulder in saber combat is buckling (albeit possibly to a greater extent than in EP III).

With Savage here, Plagueis' advantage drops significantly. Savage has sent Obi-Wan and Anakin flying simultaneously with a single blow despite both of them having already adopted a fighting stance (including Obi-Wan's Soresu). He has also sent Ventress and Dooku flying with a single attack, and his attack rapidly drove back Obi-Wan and Anakin (both possessing much more than moderate physical strength) and that is with him using mainly strength alone.

This is a false premise. Yoda never even attacked Dooku telekinetically before; he only repelled objects that Dooku telekinetically hurled at him. This comparison is nonsense to begin with. Are you honestly suggesting Dooku can contend with Yoda in TK? Tyranus' showings with Telekinesis are vastly inferior to both Yoda and Plagueis'. Plagueis has managed to Choke Sidious before, which shows a discernible level of superiority. It is true that Sidious had yet to become a master and later Choked Plagueis in return, but at the time of Plagueis doing this, Sidious was more powerful than Tyranus was. To say that TK would be ineffectual in a fight is a suggestion I can't agree with. Plagueis' TK feats are simply greater. He has smashed through the hulls of starships, supported/thrown/lifted massive collapsing caves, shook the ground while injured, atomized half a dozen people while injured, used Choke on Force sensitives more powerful than Dooku, etc. Dooku has nothing to match. The fact is that Tyranus never equaled Yoda in a telekinetic fight; all he did was fail to hurt Yoda at all while Yoda neglected to even respond with an attack. Could Plagueis beat Tyranus altogether with TK while Maul is assailing him? Probably not. But could TK play a notable role? Yes. Plagueis has even utilized TK mid-battle before, as in his duel with Venamis when he shattered a tree branch that Venamis leapt onto. It should also be noted that Tosste is a planet covered in rock terrain. There are boulders and stones scattered throughout the plains the three of them are engaging each other on, and there is the ship that Maul and Dooku flew in. All of these provide numerous telekinetic weapons for Plagueis to employ, and he has proven before that he can effortlessly scatter countless small objects with his TK, an approach he could adopt with the innumerable stones and boulders that populate Tosste's landscape. (This was achieved while Plaguies was injured by the way.)

Others Plagueis felled with his hands by snapping necks and putting his fists through armored torsos. Spreading his arms wide, he clapped his hands together, turning every loose object in the vicinity into a deadly projectile.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Yes, Plagueis is far more powerful than Dooku with TK, and yes, Plagueis can afflict your team extensively with TK. You also failed to address how Maul will be impacted by this. Even granting that Dooku would be beyond Plagueis' telekinetic reach (a development that needs far more proof than what has currently been presented), Maul is definitely weaker than Plagueis to an extensive degree. He is a character Plagueis could defeat with TK alone. Would it happen instantaneously at the beginning of the match? Unlikely. But provided all the options Plagueis has at his disposal for the application of his TK, it can be handled effectively enough. Even should Plagueis fail to beat Maul with his ambiguously impressive combat skill and disparately higher speed, both of which alone should be enough to overpower Maul, his raw telekinetic output can carry the slack.

When did I mention Yoda attacking Dooku telekinetically? However, a guide has stated that when Dooku and Yoda fought with telekinetics and other Force abilities, they were "too evenly matched":

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.

-- Taken from Star Wars: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force (Notable Lightsaber Duels: Duel of the Masters, pg. 62)

While raging, Savage has telekinetically lifted/choked both Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, then subsequently thrown them against a wall. However, this is taking into account that both of them were already engaged in saber combat. Maul (and Savage in the bonus) would be extensively affected by Plagueis' telekinesis, but if Dooku and Maul (and Savage in the bonus) use their telekinetic ability simultaneously against Plagueis, they at least present a challenge to him.

Small to medium-sized stones aren't too relevant here; they can either be deflected with the Force or sliced through by a lightsaber. The boulders are the trouble; but Dooku has lifted and hurled boulders before. The ship also means trouble, but Dooku, Maul and Savage combined should be able to prevent themselves from being crushed by the ship.

None of these showings mirror Plagueis' feats of the same. Based on recorded showings, Plagueis' Lightning is more devastating.

Dooku has shocked Anakin with enough lightning to send him flying into a metal gate while in a choke hold and having his saber locked against Skywalker's, and Plagueis has not produced Lightning to a sufficient scale to be incapable of being deflected by a saber.

Dooku has literally never displayed any running speed during combat (his running speed feats are scarce as a whole, both in and out of combat). Makashi mandates refined footwork in its sword practices. Dooku is not accustomed to running around the area like a Juyo master and striking at his opponents relentlessly. Maul would do that, not Dooku. Dooku would hardly remain stationary, but he will certainly not be racing Plagueis. Maul is a fast runner but not to Plagueis' level. As you mentioned, Plagueis can run fast enough that characters who can dodge blaster bolts can barely see him. He has also seemingly outrun blaster bolts when he deflected fire from dozens of droids while circling Sidious. Plagueis' duel with Venamis shows both combat and running speed in simultaneity. The two of them left trails of blurred light throughout the forest in a pattern of lightning. This necessitates that they both swung their lightsabers at monumental speeds so as to contort the blurring trail into crooked, tangled alignments, which evinces fighting speed. However, it also necessitates that they both run fast enough that these blurs appear in several areas concurrently, which shows travel speed. Honestly, Plagueis' speed is much greater than Maul and Dooku's. Is it so much so that they would be unable to see or react to Plagueis at all? No. But neither Maul nor Dooku have ever once demonstrated the combat speed that Plagueis did there, and it can aid him a good deal in atlering the outcome.

Fair enough. Adding Savage in here would again limit the advantage Plagueis has.

I wasn't even aware this was an available tactic. All three of them can sense invisible opponents anyway; so the point is moot, as you said.

What I was suggesting was Plagueis minimizing his presence in the Force, which would make it very difficult to be sensed like that, but he can still be seen directly unless he takes cover behind a boulder or the ship, which is possible.

Your team is nowhere Plagueis in Force power, especially not Maul.

I meant them combined. Especially with Savage.

I would concede to you on this, but would the difference in fighting prowess be gaping enough to negate both Plagueis' power and speed as well as his own degree of fighting ability? I doubt it. While your team might be more technically masterful as duelists, Plagueis is not wanting for expertise in that department, and his combination of sheer speed and overwhelming power added onto his fighting skill should grant him a win. I honestly doubt your team would in more than 2 or 3 out of 10 at best.

2-3/10? That's a low rating. But considering some of the points have been corrected, it might be a little higher now. With Savage, I see 6-7 at the very least out of ten. When Savage is added in, there's no way Plagueis is winning a saber battle and his advantages are slightly more limited.

@Strafe Prower said:

I'm glad to see Silver again. Nice debate so far gents.

Thanks.

However, I have not seen Plagueis duel two enemies simultaneously with great success, so it might be a tad bit more difficult to adapt in this type of situation.

with his usage of Jar'Kai

it is possible that his split strength in each hand is not as great.

Adding Savage in, we have a person whose sheer force of attack has pushed back Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously. Savage has also faired well against Ventress, even disarming one of her lightsabers. Obviously Savage alone isn't too much of a threat to Plagueis (Dooku himself said Savage's technique was sloppy, though he may have improved since then, but to what extent I cannot say).

It seems like you're making him vs. them separately one-on-one.

with both Dooku and Maul pushing him (and Savage, in the bonus) Plagueis would have a hard time using his speed to grant a noticeable advantage, though I am mainly speaking of the bonus round. Unless you're saying that Dooku or Maul can fight against Plagueis, and together (especially with Opress) Plagueis' speed advantage isn't doing him too much good.

I never said anything about them being above.

Anakin rushing him with the Force of a meteor strike, which is above what Plagueis has shown.

They don't necessarily have to be above, just approachable. And once again, it doesn't matter if Yoda's/Anakin's physical strength is not superior to Plagueis, it is almost equal, and as a result, the greatest burden Dooku would have to shoulder in saber combat is buckling (albeit possibly to a greater extent than in EP III).

With Savage here, Plagueis' advantage drops significantly. Savage has sent Obi-Wan and Anakin flying simultaneously with a single blow despite both of them having already adopted a fighting stance (including Obi-Wan's Soresu). He has also sent Ventress and Dooku flying with a single attack, and his attack rapidly drove back Obi-Wan and Anakin (both possessing much more than moderate physical strength) and that is with him using mainly strength alone.

When did I mention Yoda attacking Dooku telekinetically?

neither Yoda nor Dooku could defeat each other in a display of telekinesis. Thus, I don't see any reason as to why Plagueis should be able to win via sole usage of telekinesis.

However, a guide has stated that when Dooku and Yoda fought with telekinetics and other Force abilities, they were "too evenly matched":

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.

-- Taken from Star Wars: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force (Notable Lightsaber Duels: Duel of the Masters, pg. 62)

While raging, Savage has telekinetically lifted/choked both Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, then subsequently thrown them against a wall. However, this is taking into account that both of them were already engaged in saber combat. Maul (and Savage in the bonus) would be extensively affected by Plagueis' telekinesis, but if Dooku and Maul (and Savage in the bonus) use their telekinetic ability simultaneously against Plagueis, they at least present a challenge to him.

Small to medium-sized stones aren't too relevant here; they can either be deflected with the Force or sliced through by a lightsaber. The boulders are the trouble; but Dooku has lifted and hurled boulders before. The ship also means trouble, but Dooku, Maul and Savage combined should be able to prevent themselves from being crushed by the ship.

Dooku has shocked Anakin with enough lightning to send him flying into a metal gate while in a choke hold and having his saber locked against Skywalker's

and Plagueis has not produced Lightning to a sufficient scale to be incapable of being deflected by a saber.

Fair enough. Adding Savage in here would again limit the advantage Plagueis has.

I meant them combined. Especially with Savage.

2-3/10? That's a low rating. But considering some of the points have been corrected, it might be a little higher now. With Savage, I see 6-7 at the very least out of ten. When Savage is added in, there's no way Plagueis is winning a saber battle and his advantages are slightly more limited.

Why can't more debates be like this? Your Geo Force vs Wonder Woman battle was another excellent debate by the way @Silver2467

Interesting debate.

Please make more like these guys, preferably Star Wars too.

@Silver2467 said

This is an appeal to ignorance. The fact that Plagueis has never been shown to duel two Force sensitives simultaneously is not warrant to suggest he would be incapable of it; it means we have never seen it. Speculating how he would fare, whether better or worse, against two rather than one foe is pointless. We have to determine this by what we have seen. What we have seen is that Plagueisis a skilled duelist. Nothing more.

That's not what I meant. I meant that there may be a possible advantage for the team if Plagueis hasn't duelled to Force sensitives simultaneously. Minor, perhaps, but it could be helpful. With Savage in, that advantage increases. And the only being Plagueis has defeated is a featless being. Sure, Plagueis had to adapt, and I would say Plagueis would naturally be superior to that, but unless you think Plagueis' skill is roughly equivalent to Qui-Gon, Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously I don't see him beating my team like that. He has the advantage in speed (which the team should still be able to contend with) and strength (which does not overwhelm the combined team's strength) when compared to either of these combatants individually, but that's not saying Plagueis defeats them in a duel. Even if he did, that would only be 1-3 out of ten chance, IMHO. With Savage there, I do not see any chance for Plagueis to defeat them all in duelling. It seems like insuperable odds to me.

Plagueis doesn't use Jar'Kai. He carries a single lightsaber, has never been stated/shown to own more than one, and has never been shown fighting with more than one weapon.

I was thinking about the picture. But even so, this is irrelevant.

I have no idea what this has to do with the point you were making.

I was speaking of the strength.

None of which is all that impressive when compared to Plagueis. And you're right; Savage alone is hardly a threat to Plagueis. However, we can assess Savage's contribution to the match as we progress.

Once again, stop talking about any of them individually being impressive against Plagueis. That's not the point. The point is that their coordinated effort is impressive against Plagueis.

No, I wasn't.

Okay.

Based on what? Not only does Savage not have the speed feats to parallel Dooku or Maul, he lacks the discipline to coordinate what aptitudes he has in a manner that would be successful against Plagueis.

I never said anything about Savage having speed feats paralleling Dooku's or Maul's, only that them combined would limit Plagueis' advantages. I never assessed them individually against Plagueis, because clearly Plagueis defeats any of them individually.

It could be well more than that. If Plagueisutilizes Djem So against Dooku (which is theoretical given that we have no idea what Plagueis' known forms are but, based on his duel Venamis, appears to be either Juyo or Djem So), he could achieve a tantamount effect to what Anakin did against him: that is, exhaust Dooku's reserves by forcing him to generously tap his repositories of Force energies merely to ward off the strength of his blows. None of this accounts for Maul, either. Obviously, Dooku and Maul would not be forced into submission quickly, but they still can be. Plagueis' speed, striking power, skill, and power is sufficient to handle them.

Which is only 50-50. If he uses Juyo, then this isn't the case anyways. Not to mention that he would have Maul attacking him or drawing his attention slightly as well, so the force wouldn't automatically be that great.

Savage sent Anakin, Obi-Wan, Dooku, and Ventress flying with TK, not strength. As for pushing back Anakin and Obi-Wan, all he did was assault them with his lightsaber while the two of them neglected to even attack him, only defend, and Savage never accomplished much either. They fought briefly while Anakin and Obi-Wan simply parried his blows until droids interrupted them. This isn't saying much.

I'm not talking about that instance. I'm talking about when Savage charged with his saber up and rammed into Obi-Wan and Anakin, sending them flying. But talking about telekinesis, that does remind me, Savage knocked down an entire roomful of droids + Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Unless I misread you on this, the conclusion you drew here seemed to imply that since Yoda "could not defeat [Dooku] in a display of telekinesis," he had attacked him, especially since immediately after you were referring to Plagueis' offensive TK. If you were not addressing Yoda telekinetically attacking Dooku, then your point was just non-sequitur because Yoda not attacking Dooku telekinetically has nothing to do with Plagueis attacking Dooku telekinetically.

So what? Yoda still never attacked Dooku, and Dooku is definitely not equal to Yoda in TK, as shown in every encounter the two have ever had and in their respective, individual feats.

You still haven't proven that Dooku can match up to Plagueis in a telekinetic fight. Unlike Yoda, Plagueis will have no restrictions about killing Tyranus telekinetically.

The text said that they both tried to defeat each other with TK/other Force abilities but failed. It doesn't matter if Yoda didn't attack, attacking is just initiating, it could have been a reference to deflection or other means.

Quite honestly, I doubt Maul and Dooku are enough to match Plagueis in TK. Maul adds little to Tyranus' telekinetic powers. Savage, Maul, and Dooku, that could be agreeable.

Well, I disagree. Their combined telekinetics should at least be approachable to Plagueis's.

Everyone here has lifted boulders before; that does nothing to preclude the point. Plagueis' telekinetic capacity offers a tremendous amount of velocity and impact force to his thrown items. It makes little difference if the characters can and/or have telekinetically moved the objects in question; what matters is that they would be unable to repulse the objects back against the force with which Plagueis animates them. For Maul or Dooku or Savage to redirect or throw Plagueis' telekinetic weapons back against him, they would have to overpower his Telekinesis, and that simply won't happen. Pertaining to stones, neither Maul nor Dooku have ever exercised Deflection or Barrier, and even if they had, they never have mid-combat. Deflecting them with a lightsaber or dodging them is their most probable counter, but those can be offset by Plagueis' synchronous lightsaber assault an the volume of objects and rate of acceleration Plagueis hurls the objects at them. You also ignored Maul or Dooku or both being TK'd directly, by the way. There literally is nothing preventing Plagueis from releasing Force Waves that could atomize a non-Force sensitive target against them. Of course, Maul and Dooku are familiar with techniques for reducing the effects of telekinetic attacks but not to such an extent that Plagueis' powers would be rendered futile. They can be wounded and conceivably defeated by his destructive power.

And what if they chose to hurl the objects (or at least some of them) first? Maul could press Plagueis with attack to draw his attention while Dooku uses TK, or something like that. With Savage in here, I definitely see them at least saving themselves from Plagueis' TK. Also, aside from using a saber or avoiding the objects altogether, Lightning could be used. I will accept TK being Plagueis' main advantage over them, but not to an overwhelmingly great extent.

This feat is practically worthless. Firing Lightning powerful enough to knock an opponent back is nothing special, especially when Plagueis has replicated it. As I said, Dooku's showings with Lightning are inferior to Plagueis'.

Except this was done while Dooku's saber was locked with Anakin's and Anakin was choking him. And Dooku has shown he can pull of usages of Lightning in tight spots, and in the heat of battle quickly.

I never said he had...

I know, I'm just saying Lightning isn't too much of a deal here since anybody can deflect it with their lightsaber blade(s).

The only pertinent attribute Savage confers on this subject is his ferocity and power. He lacks the craft, focus, and tactical flexibility to compete with Plagueis. If anything, I could almost see Savage becoming more of a hindrance to his own team than Plagueis in a close quarter confrontation. Plagueis would have no trouble at all exploiting Savage's direct, heedless combat prerogative in a duel. Savage would be difficult to drop but not because he is skilled enough to contend; he would be more difficult to drop because of his physical durability (which, as I recall, has allowed him to withstand a blaster bolt without slowing) and his unrelenting battle mindset. As a duelist, his skills lack the refinement to engage someone of the mentality and skillfulness of Plagueis. Maul and Dooku are a different story, and with their additional talents pressing an attack, Plagueis could have problems but not due to Savage's fighting abilities but more due to his Force powers supplementing Dooku and Maul's fighting abilities. The setback for your team is that Savage would never elect to stand back and summon his powers while Dooku and Maul engage Plagueis directly. He has always favored dueling his enemies himself, and this could be a detriment to him against someone of Plagueis' caliber. Savage couldn't succeed in advancing his team's victory by facing Plagueis himself. Really, Savage is a wild card. He either could provide enough pressure on Plagueis to turn the fight heavily in your team's favor by proper appropriation of his Force powers, or he could just impede Maul and Dooku's efforts by wasting time dueling an opponent who can surpass him in that category fluidly. I would think that for a majority of instances, Savage could help at least somewhat, but if Plagueis gauges the situation correctly, he could probably maneuver Savage into a position where he obstructs Maul and Dooku (this would probably be for a minority of encounters though).

And once again, you asses Savage alone against Plagueis. Maul has shown he can fight in conjunction with Savage, and both can press against Plagueis. I assume Dooku would be able to also since he trained Savage and understands his techniques well. Another thing is that Plagueis doesn't know how they fight yet, he can only assume. That may be a slim advantage, and could be exploited. But otherwise it doesn't have it's uses.

I know what you meant. Dooku and Maul combined are not as powerful as Plagueis either. With Savage...maybe.

With Savage, I say definitely yes.

With Savage, I would probably favor your team for about 6-7/10 too. Without him, I maintain what I said. Plagueis would win almost every time in a good fight.

Okay.

I meant that there may be a possible advantage for the team if Plagueis hasn't duelled to Force sensitives simultaneously.

unless you think Plagueis' skill is roughly equivalent to Qui-Gon, Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously I don't see him beating my team like that.

He has the advantage in speed (which the team should still be able to contend with) and strength (which does not overwhelm the combined team's strength) when compared to either of these combatants individually, but that's not saying Plagueis defeats them in a duel.

I was thinking about the picture.

Once again, stop talking about any of them individually being impressive against Plagueis. That's not the point.

Obviously Savage alone isn't too much of a threat to Plagueis

I never said anything about Savage having speed feats paralleling Dooku's or Maul's, only that them combined would limit Plagueis' advantages. I never assessed them individually against Plagueis, because clearly Plagueis defeats any of them individually.

Which is only 50-50. If he uses Juyo, then this isn't the case anyways.

Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.

Never could he strike low, though, for never did Yoda seem to be on the ground, leaping and spinning, flying all about, parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.

Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white.

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed." Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement. "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath.

I'm not talking about that instance. I'm talking about when Savage charged with his saber up and rammed into Obi-Wan and Anakin, sending them flying. But talking about telekinesis, that does remind me, Savage knocked down an entire roomful of droids + Obi-Wan and Anakin.

It doesn't matter if Yoda didn't attack, attacking is just initiating, it could have been a reference to deflection or other means.

Well, I disagree. Their combined telekinetics should at least be approachable to Plagueis's.

And what if they chose to hurl the objects (or at least some of them) first?

Maul could press Plagueis with attack to draw his attention while Dooku uses TK, or something like that.

Except this was done while Dooku's saber was locked with Anakin's and Anakin was choking him. And Dooku has shown he can pull of usages of Lightning in tight spots, and in the heat of battle quickly.

And once again, you asses Savage alone against Plagueis.

The only pertinent attribute Savage confers on this subject is his ferocity and power. He lacks the craft, focus, and tactical flexibility to compete with Plagueis. If anything, I could almost seeSavage becoming more of a hindrance to his own team than Plagueis in a close quarter confrontation. Plagueis would have no trouble at all exploiting Savage's direct, heedless combat prerogative in a duel. Savage would be difficult to drop but not because he is skilled enough to contend; he would be more difficult to drop because of his physical durability (which, as I recall, has allowed him to withstand a blaster bolt without slowing) and his unrelenting battle mindset. As a duelist, his skills lack the refinement to engage someone of the mentality and skillfulness of Plagueis. Maul and Dooku are a different story, and with their additional talents pressing an attack, Plagueis could have problems but not due to Savage's fighting abilities but more due to his Force powers supplementing Dooku and Maul's fighting abilities. The setback for your team is that Savage would never elect to stand back and summon his powers while Dooku and Maul engage Plagueis directly. He has always favored dueling his enemies himself, and this could be a detriment to him against someone of Plagueis' caliber. Savage couldn't succeed in advancing his team's victory by facing Plagueis himself. Really, Savage is a wild card. He either could provide enough pressure on Plagueis to turn the fight heavily in your team's favor by proper appropriation of his Force powers, or he could just impede Maul and Dooku's efforts by wasting time dueling an opponent who can surpass him in that category fluidly. I would think that for a majority of instances, Savage could help at least somewhat, but if Plagueis gauges the situation correctly, he could probably maneuver Savage into a position where he obstructs Maul and Dooku (this would probably be for a minority of encounters though).

Maul has shown he can fight in conjunction with Savage

Rules:

• This is TPM Maul and RotS Dooku.

Somehow, I did not get a PM.....

@Silver2467 said:

Which, again, is an appeal to ignorance. You have no idea whether Plagueis has or hasn't dueled two Force sensitives simultaneously or if he has a liking for Shii-Cho. So as I said, this is just meaningless conjecture.

Which is why I said possible.

Your ABC logic isn't strengthening your case at all, especially since it completely ignores the bulk of my argument.

I fail to see how Plagueis' chances are so minimal. His speed is greater to an extent that would alter the outcome, his skill is sufficient to contend with them, and his power eclipses theirs by an expanse copious enough to weaken or kill them. Maul and Dooku's one and only advantage is a nebulously higher combat skill level. That's it. Plagueis has literally everything else complimenting him. He has the running speed to casually distance himself from Dooku and Maul should the need arise and outstep Tyranus' measured footwork. He has the combat and reactionary speed to parry their saber strikes even from both simultaneously and to counterattack with more rapidity than they can exhibit. He has the skill enough hamper their only, solitary lead over him. And he has the power to wreck them with unfurled Force attacks, not instantly (though Maul would be hard pressed to protect himself from even a single Force attack from Plagueis) but conveniently with frequent enough pulses with the Force. How exactly is he so disadvantaged? Because we know the nuances of Maul and Dooku's knowledge and fighting capabilities while less has been divulged pertaining to Plagueis'? That one drawback is too little for your team to win any kind of majority. With Savage, it would be different, but Maul and Dooku alone? They have nothing to work with.

And they also have Maul's familiarity of the location, but that's not so useful. They also have the advantage of number, and if one closed on Plagueis from either side they might be able to get a hold.

Before I resume, I would like to point out that Maul is more familiar with Tosste's terrain than anyone else here. He was trained in the Force by Sidious on Tosste. However, the surface of Tosste is just a former seabed overlayed with rock formations. There are no intrinsic or unusual geographical features to it that would enlighten Maul to a battle strategy the others would be oblivious to. With that said, Dooku could potentially be very uncomfortable fighting on Tosste. The ground is laced with stones and boulders throughout, and his Makashi form demands pacing and precision in his steps. Plagueis and Maul have proven before that they can balance themselves as well as fight on varied fields of battle with no deterrence. Dooku, on the other hand, is not known for his adaptable fighting methods, and the battleground isn't very serviceable to his lightsaber form. Not to say that he would be useless or encumbered too much, but it is a point to factor in.

I didn't have so much focus on this point; but you are correct. Although once the TK gets used the rocks will most likely be removed.

The pictures illustrates Plagueis carrying Tenebrous' lightsaber as well as his own after he killed Tenebrous on Baldemnic.

I know. I thought you meant Plagueis had Tenebrous' saber as well. But that's not relevant now since it wasn't the case.

Excuse me? I was responding directly to what you specifically said:

Okay.......

Considering the fact that Dooku has had absolutely no trouble at all electrocuting Savage with Lightning during duels as well as casually evade attacks from him on account of Savage's weak style, I would be slow to say that Savage's speed will add anything. If nothing else, Plagueis can tag him with Lightning, and his Lightning would hurt Savage more than Dooku's did.

That's possible, but Plagueis still has Dooku and Maul there also. His speed would have a part in situations like this, I suppose.

Not necessarily. Dooku was strained under the force of Yoda's blows, and Yoda uses Ataru, which requires only a roughly equal amount of strength as Juyo.

I know, but the requirement is not the limit. Yoda possesses at least approachable physical strength to Plagueis.

I am still unclear as to what you expect any of this to add to the fight, to be honest. I never denied Savage's brute force, but that brute force is entirely impractical for fighting an enemy like Plagueis.

That was partly for the TK part. When you said their combined might only be potentially approachable to Plagueis' I'm just saying that's enough of a TK feat so that when Dooku and Maul use their TK in conjunction against Plagueis, they might be able to hold.

As a matter of fact, it does matter if Yoda didn't attack (which he didn't). We are talking about Plagueis attacking Dooku telekinetically; comparing Dooku's record against Yoda, when Yoda never even attacked Dooku telekinetically, does not refute my point. The fact is that Plagueis can be summarily effective in harming Dooku telekinetically. Dooku has shown no resistance or feats of power with TK to suggest otherwise, and mentioning battles with Yoda wherein Yoda never released telekinetic attacks against Dooku is a non-sequitur response to the issue at hand.

I know that. Although Saber/dodging or their combined TK (with Savage) is most likely capable of deflecting Plagueis' obstacle-hurling TK assault.

Based on what? Maul's best TK feat is lifting a boulder. Dooku's would be a toss-up between knocking over the pillar onto Anakin and Obi-Wan; collapsing the walkway onto Obi-Wan; or using Choke on a character like Obi-Wan or Quinlan Vos. So what? You could mention the fact that we have never seen Maul cut loose with his TK before, but then, we can say that about Plagueis too. We have never seen Plagueisvent his maximum energies before. What we have seen, however, is more than Maul and Dooku can challenge.

I was talking about Savage, Dooku and Maul together. I apologize for the ambiguity.

Then Plagueis hurls them back. His TK is superior to theirs by a considerable margin. The difference between Maul and Dooku reflecting Plagueis' telekinetic weapons back at him and Plagueis reflecting Maul and Dooku's telekinetic weapons back at them is that Plagueis is just plain better in this regard than they are. They would never be able to throw his TK'd items back at him because they would have to bypass his telekinetic influence, a prospect they would fail to bring into actuality. Plaguies, though, is powerful enough to bypass their telekinetic influence, whether individually or both at once.

This would be the case if Maul and Dooku were alone, but I was talking about Maul + Dooku + Savage. I thought you said that if the battle became too heavily skewered in Plagueis' favour then Savage would get added in?

LOL. Maul could press Plagueis with attack? Don't be silly. Plagueis is too fast, too strong, too powerful, too everything for Maul to match in direct combat on his own. If Tyranus leaves Maul on his own against Plaguies or vice versa, one would be abandoning his ally to an eventual defeat, and should Plaguies exploit the opportunity to drop them with his Force abilities. As for Dooku using TK during this hypothetical retreat, I defer you to the paragraph preceding this one which explains how Plagueis can reflect their telekinetic weapons. Dooku standing back while Maul fights Plagueis martially is a more tactic. It would just result in Dooku failing to hurt Plagueis on account of Plagueis' more prodigious telekinetic influence and speed and result in Maul being killed. More, Dooku would have to be careful about not hitting Maul in the process, an interference Plagueis doesn't face should be choose to telekinetically batter them in turn.

Again, I meant Savage and Maul together could distract Plagueis. But since that doesn't seem to be the case, the second part I was talking about would be that Dooku, Maul and Savage's TK fusion should be sufficient (even if scantly so) to protect themselves from the debris Plagueis will hurl at them.

I fail to see how any of this is particularly relevant or impressive. None of it overshadows Plagueis' showings, and none of it would amplify Dooku's chances.

I was just talking about the situation Dooku used it in just to show that Dooku was restricted at that point and that he can pull out Lightning in desperate situations.

Eh, what? If you think I assessed Savage alone, then I have to question whether you even read my post. That whole paragraph was about how Savage would affect the fight alongside Dooku and Maul.

@Silver2467 said:

The only pertinent attribute Savage confers on this subject is his ferocity and power. He lacks the craft, focus, and tactical flexibility to compete with Plagueis. If anything, I could almost see Savage becoming more of a hindrance to his own team than Plagueis in a close quarter confrontation. Plagueis would have no trouble at all exploiting Savage's direct, heedless combat prerogative in a duel. Savage would be difficult to drop but not because he is skilled enough to contend; he would be more difficult to drop because of his physical durability (which, as I recall, has allowed him to withstand a blaster bolt without slowing) and his unrelenting battle mindset. As a duelist, his skills lack the refinement to engage someone of the mentality and skillfulness of Plagueis. Maul and Dooku are a different story, and with their additional talents pressing an attack, Plagueis could have problems but not due to Savage's fighting abilities but more due to his Force powers supplementing Dooku and Maul's fighting abilities. The setback for your team is that Savage would never elect to stand back and summon his powers while Dooku and Maul engage Plagueis directly. He has always favored dueling his enemies himself, and this could be a detriment to him against someone of Plagueis' caliber. Savage couldn't succeed in advancing his team's victory by facing Plagueis himself. Really, Savage is a wild card. He either could provide enough pressure on Plagueis to turn the fight heavily in your team's favor by proper appropriation of his Force powers, or he could just impede Maul and Dooku's efforts by wasting time dueling an opponent who can surpass him in that category fluidly. I would think that for a majority of instances, Savage could help at least somewhat, but if Plagueis gauges the situation correctly, he could probably maneuver Savage into a position where he obstructs Maul and Dooku (this would probably be for a minority of encounters though).

Maul has shown he can fight in conjunction with Savage

Sort of like how they did here?

Honestly, this above page is basically how I believe Plagueis would reply to Savage's tactics, and this enhances my point about Savage's lack of uniform and organized combat methods impairing your team. He is just not skilled enough for this. Savage's Force powers would be a far more noteworthy contribution to the match than his dueling.

However, your argument about Maul and Savage fighting in conjunction with each other is an anachronism to this fight. The rules stipulate TPM Maul, not TCW Maul. Maul and Savage had never formally met before TPM.

@Silver2467 said:

Rules:

• This is TPM Maul and RotS Dooku.

I forgot about it being TPM Maul.

Somehow, I did not get a PM.....

They also have the advantage of number, and if one closed on Plagueis from either side they might be able to get a hold.

I didn't have so much focus on this point; but you are correct. Although once the TK gets used the rocks will most likely be removed.

I know, but the requirement is not the limit. Yoda possesses at least approachable physical strength to Plagueis.

That was partly for the TK part. When you said their combined might only be potentially approachable to Plagueis' I'm just saying that's enough of a TK feat so that when Dooku and Maul use their TK in conjunction against Plagueis, they might be able to hold.

That was partly for the TK part. When you said their combined might only be potentially approachable to Plagueis' I'm just saying that's enough of a TK feat so that when Dooku and Maul use their TK in conjunction against Plagueis, they might be able to hold.

I know that. Although Saber/dodging or their combined TK (with Savage) is most likely capable of deflecting Plagueis' obstacle-hurling TK assault.

I was talking about Savage, Dooku and Maul together. I apologize for the ambiguity.

This would be the case if Maul and Dooku were alone, but I was talking about Maul + Dooku + Savage.

I thought you said that if the battle became too heavily skewered in Plagueis' favour then Savage would get added in?

Again, I meant Savage and Maul together could distract Plagueis. But since that doesn't seem to be the case, the second part I was talking about would be that Dooku, Maul and Savage's TK fusion should be sufficient (even if scantly so) to protect themselves from the debris Plagueis will hurl at them.

I forgot about it being TPM Maul.

@Silver2467 said:

Site complications. It happens.

Yeah.

Surrounding Plagueisis the obvious strategy, but then, this is where Plaguies' travel speed comes in. He could make it next to impossible for them to constrain his movement, and based on how Plagueis was shown to duel before, he would likely not be in any one place for very long. Added onto that the fact that Dooku's pace will, again, be more precise rather than assume some mad dash the way Maul might, subsisting a flanking attack against Plagueis where he is between them is just not feasible. He can easily outrun both of them, and, if anything, considering that he seems to charge at enemies while slashing at them with his lightsaber (based on his duel with Venamis, at least), he would probably be the one pressing a positional advantage, not the other way around.

I guess so.

Hmm, maybe, but I recall in The Wrath of Darth Maul, Maul mentioned there being thousands of stones in the plains he and Sidious were in. Granted, he was young at the time and was probably just guessing, but Plagueis, Dooku, Maul, and Savage should be able to cover plenty of ground. There should be enough. But I see your point.

Yes, but if you're talking about pebble-sized (or roughly that size) stones, then they aren't really relevant since anybody's TK, saber or Lightning or something else could deflect them.

You mean Dooku and Maul and Savage? You listed TK feats for Savage, which is what I was replying to. This isn't just about Maul and Dooku. Maul and Dooku alone lack the telekinetic resources to match Plagueis completely; Maul and Dooku and Savage is enough to though. Relating to Maul and Dooku alone, they could pose difficulty to Plagueis with their TK but only if they utilize their TK simultaneously. Maul is more reserved with respects to his offensive Force abilities during duels, while Dooku is more liberal with them. Maul and Tyranus, even together, are not even with Plagueis telekinetically, in my opinion, but even if they were, you would have to propose a plausible scenario in which they use TK at once against him. And I just see little to no reason to assume that would be the case.

That's true.

He does, but I never meant that we completely disregard the round with only Maul and Dooku. Savage's inclusion is a different round.

Okay.

I agree with that. My issue now is less with the capability of your team to block Plagueis' telekinetic weapons and more with the likelihood of them using their TK together. I will say though that Savage and Dooku, being more inclined to employ offensive Force abilities mid-combat, very well could do so, but all three at once is unlikely, in my opinion. However, a case could be argued for Savage and Dooku alone, without Maul's intervention, dampening Plagueis' telekinetic influence enough that they could beat him.

I still believe Savage and Dooku's combined TK is sufficient, even if it's barely.

Fair enough. Not sure if your consensus has changed at all, but mine is still this: Maul and Dooku, Plagueis wins a majority. Maul, Dooku, and Savage, your team wins a majority.

I would agree. Your team wins Round 1, my team wins Round 2.

Yes, but if you're talking about pebble-sized (or roughly that size) stones, then they aren't really relevant since anybody's TK, saber or Lightning or something else could deflect them.

Leaving the cruiser behind, they proceeded to a nearby outcropping of bedrock, which was bordered by a broad field covered by small stones. The tops of a few large boulders loomed over the stones.

Maul's yellow eyes darted back and forth. He saw only rocks. Some were pebbles, others large stones, and there were the tops of a few boulders. 

I still believe Savage and Dooku's combined TK is sufficient, even if it's barely.

I would agree. Your team wins Round 1, my team wins Round 2.

@Silver2467: Yes, but the rocks that are ofgargantuan size would have already been eliminated by the TK.

Right. So we have an agreement? Good debate.

@Silver2467: Yes, but the rocks that are of gargantuan size would have already been eliminated by the TK.

Right. So we have an agreement? Good debate.

@Silver2467: Of course, but that's taking the entire planet into account. The fight won't cover that much...... LOL.

@Silver2467 said:

It was.

Agreed.

Incredible debate.

@Silver2467: Sorry if you've already covered this, but how skilled is Darth Plagueis in lightsaber combat? I'm not that familiar with the character.

@GodOfMischief said:

@Silver2467: Sorry if you've already covered this, but how skilled is Darth Plagueis in lightsaber combat? I'm not that familiar with the character.

Willrow Hood could beat him.

Nice debate.

May I just say that I refuse to accept that Oppress will do anything to help in the second round? Just saying that. And as you guys know, I will ignore anything to the contrary *shrug*

@JediXMan said:

Nice debate.

May I just say that I refuse to accept that Oppress will do anything to help in the second round? Just saying that. And as you guys know, I will ignore anything to the contrary *shrug*

LOL.

@Silver2467 said:

@ShootingNova: We're derailing this too far, but the point is, there are hundreds to thousands of sufficiently sizable rocks to choose from across the landscape the characters fight on. There is no shortage in that respect, whether for my side or yours. But at any rate, I honestly forgot why this was even brought up. LOL. Good discussion. For the record, I went back through my posts and posted evidence of Plagueis' feats. The reason I decided against it before is because you were the one mentioning most of Plagueis' feats; so I saw no point in posting quotes of his showings. But I figured it would be a good idea to edit those in for the benefit of other users reading this who might want to learn about Plagueis (I also added a couple for your characters also).

Yeah. LOL.

@Deranged Midget said:

Incredible debate.

Thanks.

@Silver2467 said:

@GodOfMischief: Plagueis' skill level is difficult to determine. He has only been shown in one actual duel against Darth Venamis. Venamis himself is a featless swordsman, but the quality of Plagueis' victory over Venamis is in Venamis' knowledge. Venamis was trained by Plagueis' master, Tenebrous, and was a master of all the same combat arts that Plagueis was. This made Venamis able to counter Plagueis' fighting forms. Despite this, Plagueis managed to beat him. Aside from that, Plagueis and Sidious defeated an army of Kursid warriors using nothing but force pikes. He also recognized the marks of Niman and teras kasi when watching Maul practice, and Plagueis was deemed a swordmaster by Tenebrous (a combat enthusiast, by Plagueis' estimation). So how skilled is he? Hard to say. Plagueis' skill showings are few and far between. What we have is sufficient to say that he is skilled but how much so is arguable. We would need more information before we can conclusively rank him in comparison to some other established characters. Right now, all we can do is draw as close a comparison as we can knowing that we might be wrong about it.

Agreed.

@Silver2467: Ah ok, thanks for taking the time to give a detailed answer :)

As in the book :

• Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count

It may be useless in a fight, but Darth Plagueis is completely capable of manipulating it on himself, as stated in the book (though to what extent, I don't know).

This was a fine debate a very fine one indeed. I miss when both Nova and Silver was on the battle forum more frequently =(

EPIC!

In Sabers, Maul and dooku. But force powers, Plagueis

Depends. Maul and Dooku just might be able to narrowly take the win if Plagueis doesn't mega-abuse the Force. But given his distaste for saber combat and the fact that he doesn't appear to toy around in duels for enjoyment like Sidious, he'll probably rely heavily on his superior power/mastery of/in the Force.

Plagueis 6/10

Dooku solos ez

Silver has to be the most overrated debater of all time.

Ah what the hell.

It's a pretty close match up.

I think Plagueis takes it narrowly. His Force feats in the Canted Circle while critically injured are honestly a lot more impressive than anything Dooku or Maul have done(heck even TPM Sidious for that matter). He should be powerful enough to deal with them both.

Maul might actually solo tbh, Plagueis is trash.

@fairtrade:

Maul might actually solo tbh, Plagueis is trash.

That's laughable.

This is TPM Maul. What has TPM Maul done that's even close to "all but atomizing" armored Maladians with a force wave? That was accomplished while he had lost a great deal of blood, had two of his subsidiary hearts in fibrillation, and had just had a good chunk of his jaw bone and trachea severed. And he was pre-prime as well(his midi-chorian count increased years after the event which would logically give him an even greater connection to the Force).

Not to mention scaling from TPM Sidious who had no problem flaunting his superiority to Maul, yet with Plagueis he resorted to a convoluted plan to have him nuked (referencing Maul: Lockdown), and failing that he waited until he was intoxicated before going for the kill. Even after he was dead he was warry of his master's presence(referencing the prologue) until he was sure he was dead for sure. If Plagueis was trash he wouldn't feared him nor would he have gone through all those convoluted plans and just killed him when he was reclusive on Sojourn.

@kilius: As if I was serious... Nevertheless, I've been too hard on Maul recently, so I'll bite.

The fact that Plagueis sustained those injuries in the first place is an embarrassment. So he can't even atomise non-force sensitives despite the balance of the force being tipped towards the dark side (which it let Plagueis and Sidious do to conceive Anakin, so don't bother making that argument) and fighting for his life + having injuries that would highten his senses and boost his power? Pathetic. Lmao at midi-chlorion counts meaning anything as well.

Plagueis has no scaling off of Palpatine, all we have are Luceno's opinions for any kind of comparison. You could say that Plagueis had more knowledge than his apprentice, sure, but nothing states he's just as powerful. Sidious 'resorted' to plans to have his master taken out through other means because it's easier than a direct confrontation, where anything could happen. It means as much as "Vitiate feared the ancient spirits" or "Dooku feared Sidious" when all feats and accolades put Tenebrae far above Sadow, Kressh etc. and the Count close to Sidious. Even if you contest those points, attempting to assess Plagueis' power based on an emotion is ridiculous.

All you've established is that Plagueis can defeat fodder whilst injured (just like Maul) and that Sidious was scared of him.

Plagueis is still solidly around that Komari Vosa level though.

Silver might be overrated but he and Nova are both infinitely superior to that mediocre, outdated bumbler Nai.

Plagueis wins if he abuses the Force. The dude canonically unable to touch Yoda in the Force and his slight inferior can't win such a contest, but they could win all-out due to sabers. Good fight.

@dark-sith123: How many times do I have to stomp you on the Dooku issue before you leave the site out of shame?

@fairtrade:

A lot, because the only thing you've managed to do in a debate with me is be humiliated, just like your mediocre idol whenever he gets in over his head and tries to debate Nova or Az.

Count Dooku hurls Force-Lightning at Yoda, but Yoda easily deflects the attack.

Attack of the Clones Photo Comic

Blue Force lightning arced out of his fingertips and toward the tiny Jedi. The assault was relentless. yet Yoda stood unfazedAttack of the Clones Movie Storybook

On Geonosis, Yoda's easy parrying and, indeed, handling of the Sith lightning Dooku hurled at him had come as a surprise.Labyrinth of Evil

Dooku can't touch Yoda. Canonical sources are worth more than your fan-fiction.

Now shush before I have to put you back in your place for the billionth time.

@dark-sith123: Hilarious.

Cherry-picked sources are cherry-picked. You know as well as I, that there are a plethora of quotes that I could choose to counter those... and have many times.

The Labyrinth of Evil quote isn't a retcon. It's the narrator speaking on behalf of Dooku's thoughts on the battle.

What about the other two?

Oh, yeah. They don't suit certain agendas so they're best ignored.