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#1 Posted by Arcus1 (23086 posts) - - Show Bio

In this battle of fire and ice, who will prevail?

Fight takes place at the Misty a Palms Oasis, where Ming fought Mako. Time is perpetual twilight. Starting distance is 25 feet

All are in character. Victory by ko or death

Who wins?

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#2 Posted by Arcus1 (23086 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331@joewell@strictlyanime@nighthunder

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@dccomicsrule2011@lunacyde @etheral_dreams

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#3 Posted by uchiha454 (4094 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll take Ming Mako without lighting would have lost to her while Zuko's fire bending is better than Mako's I don't think it'll be enough I'm pretty confident she could water orb him

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#4 Posted by Arcus1 (23086 posts) - - Show Bio

@uchiha454: course Zuko won't jump into the water to escape a lavabender. He's also got techniques like fire whips that could be useful

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#5 Posted by Primebonnick (3812 posts) - - Show Bio

yea i'lll go with ming too since it took a well experienced zuko sokka, korra's dad and maybe more people to take down ming and her whole group (4 people) and lets be real mako got lucky (nothing wrong with that luck is needed in battle too).

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#6 Posted by uchiha454 (4094 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus said:

@uchiha454: course Zuko won't jump into the water to escape a lavabender. He's also got techniques like fire whips that could be useful

True but in correlation to Ming I believe he is a bit slower than Ming with his whips not to mention her mobility that coupled with her speed could be enough to get hits in and knock Zuko in the pool

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#7 Edited by LlehDevil (7230 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming. She's has more than enough water to win.

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#8 Posted by hatemalingsia (15494 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua.

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#9 Posted by Arcus1 (23086 posts) - - Show Bio

@llehdevil: do you think a location with less water would be more fair?

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#10 Posted by alphaeyght2 (92 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming hua.. Better mobility, and she will never runs out of water here.

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#12 Posted by johnfrank120 (6702 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming

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#13 Posted by Rijehu (1052 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually think it will be a close battle but Ming Hua probably takes it due to Zuko being old.

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#14 Posted by Killerwasp (15219 posts) - - Show Bio

Young zuko prolly wins, old one prolly loses.

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#15 Posted by Arcus1 (23086 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Arcus1 (23086 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, anyone got thoughts on this battle?

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/korra-wan-vs-toph-zaheer-1646244/#12

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#17 Posted by Rijehu (1052 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus: It could go either way but Young Zuko probably wins. He has more fire power, is agile enough to keep up with Ming or at least keep out of her way, and he has techniques that can assist him in the battle.

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#18 Edited by Killerwasp (15219 posts) - - Show Bio

@rijehu said:

@arcus: It could go either way but Young Zuko probably wins. He has more fire power, is agile enough to keep up with Ming or at least keep out of her way, and he has techniques that can assist him in the battle.

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#20 Posted by Oparu (477 posts) - - Show Bio

Zuko destroys.

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#21 Edited by ANTHP2000 (6555 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua in a decent fight.

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#22 Posted by vengefulshot (1835 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua in a fairly close fight.

This. Zuko is slower than Mako who was struggling to keep up.

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#23 Posted by Mial42 (1431 posts) - - Show Bio

I favor Ming Hua (mainly because she nearly blitzed Mako), but it's a decent fight.

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#24 Posted by Huskii (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42 said:

I favor Ming Hua (mainly because she nearly blitzed Mako), but it's a decent fight.

Zuko isn't Mako. They fight with two totally different styles so you can't base Mako's performance in his first fight with Ming with Zuko. I don't think their is a single bender capable of blitzing Zuko, he has a powerful and diverse set of flowing moves that incorporate quick sturdy defenses and overwhelming counters.

Ming-Hua loses this battle hard. There isn't a thing she could do, not even her octopus form could put Zuko down.

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#25 Edited by Mial42 (1431 posts) - - Show Bio

@huskii: She doesn't need to blitz him to beat him. His regular blasts won't hold up and anything more will take to long. She can just freeze him or cut him to pieces to beat him.

Nice to see you're back Oparu/Starboii.

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#26 Posted by SoImMe (99 posts) - - Show Bio

Zuko gets blitzed.

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#27 Posted by Huskii (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: His regular blasts won't hold up? Lol. So are you saying Zuko is weaker than Mako? The same Mako who was holding his own with Ming during the night and completely aggravating her under the Sun?

No Caption Provided

If Zuko needed to get off a stronger blast he would, Ming can't delay it and plenty of benders off charged attacks frequently in fights. Ming Hua has no attack that won't get vaporized. But here comes the scan that destroys this argument:

Plenty more showings of his casual power
Plenty more showings of his casual power

Now how does her power compare to that ^

I'm sure Katara thought about then attempted to do all those things. Zuko flash fries her or blows her to bits.

What gave me away?

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#28 Posted by Mial42 (1431 posts) - - Show Bio

@huskii:

Actually, her power does rival that:

FEAR DR. HUACTOPUS!
FEAR DR. HUACTOPUS!

And nice cherry picking:

Mako not matching Ming's power.
Mako not matching Ming's power.
Literally goes straight through his fireblast.
Literally goes straight through his fireblast.

Katara stalemated him in the Catacombs, and has all around better feats.

It was you repeating Oparu's arguments from this CaV on Aang and Zuko's fights in our discussion of Zaheer vs B1 Zuko that convinced me, and your other statements and constant support of firebenders, Tonraq, and Ghazan that sealed it.

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#29 Posted by Huskii (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: No it doesn't.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

A bunch of thin easily evaporated tentacles won't do much to giant fire plumes like above.

Cherry picking? Now I now for a fact that I emphasized how Mako was holding his own against her during night. I also know that you know that Mako performed better during daylight, which Zuko would perform just as well.

Katara couldn't beat Zuko in the catacombs abd he was already beginning to overwhelm her even before Azula showed up. He countered her water arms and he will counter all of Ming Hua's.

No Caption Provided

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#30 Posted by Mial42 (1431 posts) - - Show Bio

@huskii: The first one is not nearly as good as Dr. Huactopus, and the second is a defensive technique.

Mako got stomped in like 30 seconds. Zuko > Mako, but not to the degree that he'll go from getting stomped to taking it mid-dif or easier.

He countered her water arms, she countered his firewhips. It was a stalemate. Ming Hua is a far more proficient waterarms user than Katara, and has far more of them.

LMFAO at that gif though.

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#31 Posted by Tektonic (423 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua pretty decisively.

Zuko is not on her level.

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#32 Posted by Huskii (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: The first gif was and here's a still frame because it harder to see as a gif:

Hawt and dangerous
Hawt and dangerous

Sir, I'm gonna stop you right there. Firebending is an offensive element, any fire move can be used offensively ( same goes for any element... ) so what ever you are attempting to say is wrong. Not only that, the fire vortex Zuko showed was merely an advanced form of his previous fire tornado attacks and he even threatened to use it against the New Ozai Society. Ming Hua is toast if Zuko decides to go for that.

You are right...Ming is better than Katara, but she ain't better than Zuko. He will adapt accordingly to her style, like a dancing dragon he will be fluid!

Zuko can manipulate  a dozen spiraling fire whips at once, combine this with his reflexes and he's untouchable.
Zuko can manipulate a dozen spiraling fire whips at once, combine this with his reflexes and he's untouchable.

Ming isn't the only one packing numbers. Plus it looks awesome, still my favorite display of firebending ( shame we never seen such creativity and use of environment with firebending after ATLA :( ), it's simply amazing just look at his form and how he swiftly transitions to this little gif that further backs me up:

No Caption Provided

Not only does my boy Zuko totally out bend Ming Hua here but he alsop disproves your previous statement about not being able to bend a defensive attack. Yes I know this attack wasn't a defense against anything, but it still proves that Zuko can bend his stationary/defensive attacks at you like say..oh I don't know... A VORTEX AT YOU!

No Caption Provided

Hehe.

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#33 Posted by Mial42 (1431 posts) - - Show Bio

@huskii:

I mean, even if I assume you're right, she can just go through the top if she has too.

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#34 Posted by Huskii (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: Accept you're right*

Ming Hua wouldn't jump into a flaming vortex, even if she had the ups to do so. Say for instance she did stupidly manage to get inside, Zuko would just attack her. A simple fire blast or collape the vortex on her.

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#35 Posted by Mial42 (1431 posts) - - Show Bio

@huskii: He wasn't fast enough against Aang, and his simple fireblasts are easily blocked, assuming he can even use them while maintaining his vortex (and he hasn't shown her can).

Blocks a fireblast despite being mid-leap.
Blocks a fireblast despite being mid-leap.

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#36 Posted by Huskii (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42: Did I miss the part where Ming Hua was suddenly as fast as Aang? For the record, Zuko kept up with him just fine. Is there any reason he can't? He's already shown the abilities to

  • Fire off multiple blasts while maintaining a giant fire wave
  • Bend a giant fire funnel
  • Get angry and flames start shooting everywhere like crazy

Blocks a quick fire blast at night, woah.

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#37 Posted by Tektonic (423 posts) - - Show Bio
@huskii said:

@mial42: The first gif was and here's a still frame because it harder to see as a gif:

Hawt and dangerous
Hawt and dangerous

Is this supposed to be impressive? Some meagre flames that only showcased his rage while he then uses a condensed charged attack to break through a piece of rock.

Sir, I'm gonna stop you right there. Firebending is an offensive element, any fire move can be used offensively ( same goes for any element... ) so what ever you are attempting to say is wrong.

Not directed at me but true.

Not only that, the fire vortex Zuko showed was merely an advanced form of his previous fire tornado attacks and he even threatened to use it against the New Ozai Society. Ming Hua is toast if Zuko decides to go for that.

Why? His vortex is neither fast nor showed much power at all. Just very pretty.

You are right...Ming is better than Katara, but she ain't better than Zuko. He will adapt accordingly to her style, like a dancing dragon he will be fluid!

What? How is he going to easily adapt to a style he has never witnessed in his entire life? Ming Hua doesn't use standard water stances and movements. Or even advanced ones. Remember she is a PSYCHIC waterbender and therefore will always have the advantage in being unpredictable and hard to prepare for.

Zuko can manipulate a dozen spiraling fire whips at once, combine this with his reflexes and he's untouchable.
Zuko can manipulate a dozen spiraling fire whips at once, combine this with his reflexes and he's untouchable.

That's not remotely the same as what Ming Hua did. Zuko is LAUNCHING a bunch of firewhips. We know he can only MAINTAIN 2, 1 for each arm. Ming Hua for example can MAINTAIN 6 water arms, then branch of the ends creating a total of 11 arms. After than they can also LAUNCH multiple attacks and that value would easily supersede what Zuko is doing in that gif. Let alone what she did against Mako shortly before her death.

No Caption Provided

Ming isn't the only one packing numbers. Plus it looks awesome, still my favorite display of firebending ( shame we never seen such creativity and use of environment with firebending after ATLA :( ), it's simply amazing just look at his form and how he swiftly transitions to this little gif that further backs me up:

No Caption Provided

You want to see good form, transitioning, and skill?

How about

In a incredible showcase of her versatility, Ming Hua uses the small amounts of water present on the temple floor to perform three moves in quick succession. First she creates a high level water technique in the waterspout, then quickly shifts it into a water slide while simultaneously shifting one of her water arms into a ice spear to skewer Kya. All near instantly while smiling.
In a incredible showcase of her versatility, Ming Hua uses the small amounts of water present on the temple floor to perform three moves in quick succession. First she creates a high level water technique in the waterspout, then quickly shifts it into a water slide while simultaneously shifting one of her water arms into a ice spear to skewer Kya. All near instantly while smiling.

So your "boy" hasn't outbended anyone.

Zuko can bend his stationary/defensive attacks at you like say..oh I don't know... A VORTEX AT YOU!

Which will just be countered by Ming Hua using say a waterspout(look above) or plowing through with enough water.

No Caption Provided

Hehe.

Both this fire vortex and the fire blast she clashed Azula with in your previous scan are both for naught. Ming Hua is more than capable of handling that kind of fire. Especially with the water resources here(Swimming Pool, Spirit Water Ice Fountain which has basically limitless water).

Ming Hua quite easily stomped Desna and Eska telling us canonically that she is>>>>>>>them
Ming Hua quite easily stomped Desna and Eska telling us canonically that she is>>>>>>>them
Who are able to perform techniques far larger than anything Zuko has ever done or will
Who are able to perform techniques far larger than anything Zuko has ever done or will
And have been canonically stated capable of shooting ENTIRE ICEBERGS at people which completely outstrips anything Zuko is remotely capable of by a huge margin
And have been canonically stated capable of shooting ENTIRE ICEBERGS at people which completely outstrips anything Zuko is remotely capable of by a huge margin

Saying Ming Hua can't deal with Zuko's attacks despite being many tiers above two people with far more power than him is just ludicrous given the water available to her here as well.

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#38 Posted by Huskii (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@tektonic: Thanks for the reply. Was extremely bored.

Is this supposed to be impressive? Some meagre flames that only showcased his rage while he then uses a condensed charged attack to break through a piece of rock.

Yes and those flames weren't just thin lines, they were actually dense and packed enough force to fling some one several feet:

AoE too
AoE too

Ming has never faced an attack on this scale and her best bet is to try and avoid it, which is unlikely since Zuko is good at tagging speedy opponents with his breakdancing:

No Caption Provided

He will break Ming Hua's root. We've already seen just how easily that can be done...

Ming had the power advantage here too smh
Ming had the power advantage here too smh

Why? His vortex is neither fast nor showed much power at all. Just very pretty.

Hard to see just how fast something is on a still framed comic panel but I'd imagine it would be just as fast and more powerful as his other vortex attacks. That is an ultimate level firebending move and completely blows anything Minf has shown out of the water. Yes very pretty too.

What? How is he going to easily adapt to a style he has never witnessed in his entire life? Ming Hua doesn't use standard water stances and movements. Or even advanced ones. Remember she is a PSYCHIC waterbender and therefore will always have the advantage in being unpredictable and hard to prepare for.

Accept he has, it's just an advanced form of water arms and the octopus form that Katara displayed meaning he'll just need to whip out his fire whips. No she won't her "psychic" ability only allows her to gather arms which she then uses to bend and do stances. Never has she attacked any one without moving.

That's not remotely the same as what Ming Hua did. Zuko is LAUNCHING a bunch of firewhips. We know he can only MAINTAIN 2, 1 for each arm. Ming Hua for example can MAINTAIN 6 water arms, then branch of the ends creating a total of 11 arms. After than they can also LAUNCH multiple attacks and that value would easily supersede what Zuko is doing in that gif. Let alone what she did against Mako shortly before her death.

It isn't supposed to be. That's still amazing, he won't have to keep the whips for prolonged times when he can just lash them out to defend against Ming's multiple arms. She used multiple arms against a waterless Kya, and Kya still held her own quite well, meaning Zuko will perform 10x better with his bending and mobility.

So your "boy" hasn't outbended anyone.

Ming created a water spout not an attack, and that spear was basic. Not nearly as impressive as what Zuko did. He did outbend her, that was clearly more fire than what Ming ever manipulated even with a cavern of water. As for transitioning I meant from a firebender.

Which will just be countered by Ming Hua using say a waterspout(look above) or plowing through with enough water

The waterspout that left her vulnerable to this:

No Caption Provided

Meaning it was nothing more than a straight foward yolo charge ( Like what got her killed ). She lacks mobility on that thing apparently. She has no feats suggesting she could get through.

Both this fire vortex and the fire blast she clashed Azula with in your previous scan are both for naught. Ming Hua is more than capable of handling that kind of fire. Especially with the water resources here(Swimming Pool, Spirit Water Ice Fountain which has basically limitless water).

Where? She has never dealt with these types of attacks, Mako's standard attacks were destroying hers so Zuko's large scale ones will do the same to hers, which have no feats of sustaining from the heat.

Saying Ming Hua can't deal with Zuko's attacks despite being many tiers above two people with far more power than him is just ludicrous given the water available to her here as well.

Lol. By your logic Mako>>>>>> Twins because he outlasted them by a large gap of time. Nope. Ming Hua defeated them with speed blitz, because they were slow and stupid and she exploited their ridiculous attack that literally just gave her a field to swing through. Their performance doesn't mean jack here, Zuko individually, like Mako, is a better seasoned fighter than both and that's side. Rewatch the scene and you'll see Desna and Eska just creating STILL pillars for Ming to swing from ahead of time. They didn't launch a thing, just slowly raised them:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Individually Zuko performs better than them both and give him a sibling teammate he and Azula stomps. Sad actually.

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#39 Posted by ANTHP2000 (6555 posts) - - Show Bio

@mial42 said:

@huskii: She doesn't need to blitz him to beat him. His regular blasts won't hold up and anything more will take to long. She can just freeze him or cut him to pieces to beat him.

Nice to see you're back Oparu/Starboii.

LOL This keeps getting better.

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#40 Edited by Tektonic (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@huskii said:

@tektonic: Thanks for the reply. Was extremely bored.

Is this supposed to be impressive? Some meagre flames that only showcased his rage while he then uses a condensed charged attack to break through a piece of rock.

Yes and those flames weren't just thin lines, they were actually dense and packed enough force to fling some one several feet:

AoE too
AoE too

Ming has never faced an attack on this scale and her best bet is to try and avoid it, which is unlikely since Zuko is good at tagging speedy opponents with his breakdancing:

No Caption Provided

He will break Ming Hua's root. We've already seen just how easily that can be done...

Ming had the power advantage here too smh
Ming had the power advantage here too smh

Why? His vortex is neither fast nor showed much power at all. Just very pretty.

Hard to see just how fast something is on a still framed comic panel but I'd imagine it would be just as fast and more powerful as his other vortex attacks. That is an ultimate level firebending move and completely blows anything Minf has shown out of the water. Yes very pretty too.

What? How is he going to easily adapt to a style he has never witnessed in his entire life? Ming Hua doesn't use standard water stances and movements. Or even advanced ones. Remember she is a PSYCHIC waterbender and therefore will always have the advantage in being unpredictable and hard to prepare for.

Accept he has, it's just an advanced form of water arms and the octopus form that Katara displayed meaning he'll just need to whip out his fire whips. No she won't her "psychic" ability only allows her to gather arms which she then uses to bend and do stances. Never has she attacked any one without moving.

That's not remotely the same as what Ming Hua did. Zuko is LAUNCHING a bunch of firewhips. We know he can only MAINTAIN 2, 1 for each arm. Ming Hua for example can MAINTAIN 6 water arms, then branch of the ends creating a total of 11 arms. After than they can also LAUNCH multiple attacks and that value would easily supersede what Zuko is doing in that gif. Let alone what she did against Mako shortly before her death.

It isn't supposed to be. That's still amazing, he won't have to keep the whips for prolonged times when he can just lash them out to defend against Ming's multiple arms. She used multiple arms against a waterless Kya, and Kya still held her own quite well, meaning Zuko will perform 10x better with his bending and mobility.

So your "boy" hasn't outbended anyone.

Ming created a water spout not an attack, and that spear was basic. Not nearly as impressive as what Zuko did. He did outbend her, that was clearly more fire than what Ming ever manipulated even with a cavern of water. As for transitioning I meant from a firebender.

Which will just be countered by Ming Hua using say a waterspout(look above) or plowing through with enough water

The waterspout that left her vulnerable to this:

No Caption Provided

Meaning it was nothing more than a straight foward yolo charge ( Like what got her killed ). She lacks mobility on that thing apparently. She has no feats suggesting she could get through.

Both this fire vortex and the fire blast she clashed Azula with in your previous scan are both for naught. Ming Hua is more than capable of handling that kind of fire. Especially with the water resources here(Swimming Pool, Spirit Water Ice Fountain which has basically limitless water).

Where? She has never dealt with these types of attacks, Mako's standard attacks were destroying hers so Zuko's large scale ones will do the same to hers, which have no feats of sustaining from the heat.

Saying Ming Hua can't deal with Zuko's attacks despite being many tiers above two people with far more power than him is just ludicrous given the water available to her here as well.

Lol. By your logic Mako>>>>>> Twins because he outlasted them by a large gap of time. Nope. Ming Hua defeated them with speed blitz, because they were slow and stupid and she exploited their ridiculous attack that literally just gave her a field to swing through. Their performance doesn't mean jack here, Zuko individually, like Mako, is a better seasoned fighter than both and that's side. Rewatch the scene and you'll see Desna and Eska just creating STILL pillars for Ming to swing from ahead of time. They didn't launch a thing, just slowly raised them:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Individually Zuko performs better than them both and give him a sibling teammate he and Azula stomps. Sad actually.

No problem.

Yes fling trash fodder.

Not sure why you bothered to post a comet enhanced Zuko fighting a crazy person. Ming tends to swing on things.

Than this happened
Than this happened

All it did was block some fodder attacks. It's not like any of Zuko's other "vortex" attacks are impressive so there nothing to scale there.

Accept he hasn't. He only has 2 fire whips vs 12 it numerically makes no sense to assume he can deal with that. Especially when two arms alone is enough to destroy steel.

Okay in that case go search up and show me what water bending stance she used to do the following:

1. Explain what stances and movements she is doing to perform said moves

2. Than explain in the event you chalk it up to something to do with her water arms how she can't simply use multiple water arms, one to perform movements for techniques while others distract him? Basically how would he counter that much versatility?

Create a waterspout, than shift it into a slide
Create a waterspout, than shift it into a slide
What movements is she doing to make all these water arms behave like this?
What movements is she doing to make all these water arms behave like this?

You don't get it. No there is absolutely nothing amazing about what you showed. All he did was launch a few attacks in quick succession. That is ineffective for the following reasons. First of all in addition to having 12 water arms on standby Ming Hua will have them launching attacks. So he can't attacks the water arms directly without getting based what she has launched as well. Second those whips are absolutely pathetic doing nothing to a basic hallway other than set it on fire.

When did Kya hold her own the moment Ming Hua went octopus form? Show me Kya holding her own. From what I recall she literally got slapped around.

She shifted from a waterspout a master level move with no gestures, to a slide while freezing her arm. No mater how you slice it more is going on than what Zuko did. Why bother arguing size when those flames did absolutely nothing and were so easily repelled? No wonder he could control that much it was completely worthless to begin with.

She was using the slide not the spout when she got hit
She was using the slide not the spout when she got hit
And she wasn't hurt at all
And she wasn't hurt at all

She was killed because she has a unique weakness to lightning. Something Zuko doesn't have so no point in bringing that up.

Her water arms can't easily break through steel when hardened. Okay show me when Mako has overpowered powered he without using a volley of fireblasts to slowly take away he amount of water. Show me what blasts Zuko has you think will make a difference? Than I'll explain how they don't.

Okay you don't get it. Ming Hua was a perfect counter to them which is why she stomped them. Whether you think Ming won with speed is irrelevant. Bottom line is if Desna and Eska were anywhere close to her level as waterbenders they wouldn't have gone down as and broke out of her ice entrapment. And then answer this, do you think Desna and Eska are more powerful than Ming Hua? And if you think she moved that fast because of conveniently placed attacks than explain what difference there would be in a location where there are already structures?

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#41 Posted by ANTHP2000 (6555 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua belongs in the 2nd level of the best imo. Up there with Katara, Azula, Toph and Tenzin. Zuko is a couple of levels below despite his mastery.

There's litteraly no reason why she would lose that fight. Everything from power to speed to versatality to mobility goes to her.

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#42 Edited by vengefulshot (1835 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: I think Zuko isn't that far below them. He's quite skilled, has good scale and power, and great physicals. He just doesn't really excel at any of them (Katara skill, Toph scale, Azula physicals, Ming speed etc) so he falls back a little.

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#43 Posted by ANTHP2000 (6555 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: I think Zuko isn't that far below them. He's quite skilled, has good scale and power, and great physicals. He just doesn't really excel at any of them (Katara skill, Toph scale, Azula physicals, Ming speed etc) so he falls back a little.

He is definetely close to them in bending skill (not quite on their level but close) but all of them excel at stuff like mobility or speed or scale or versatality etc.
Generally, I view everyone from Air Aang and Bumi to Zuko and Ghazan as high tiers close to each other, but I have them separated in a few "levels". Like, Bumi and Aang are up there on their own. Ming, Azula, Katara, Toph and Tenzin come after them. Then I have the Beifongs, Kuvira and Unalaq. Slightly below it's P'Li on her own, and after that we have Zuko, Water Korra and Ghazan.

That's just how I see it though.

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#44 Posted by thebuckaronatr (460 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot said:

@anthp2000: I think Zuko isn't that far below them. He's quite skilled, has good scale and power, and great physicals. He just doesn't really excel at any of them (Katara skill, Toph scale, Azula physicals, Ming speed etc) so he falls back a little.

He is definetely close to them in bending skill (not quite on their level but close) but all of them excel at stuff like mobility or speed or scale or versatality etc.

Generally, I view everyone from Air Aang and Bumi to Zuko and Ghazan as high tiers close to each other, but I have them separated in a few "levels". Like, Bumi and Aang are up there on their own. Ming, Azula, Katara, Toph and Tenzin come after them. Then I have the Beifongs, Kuvira and Unalaq. Slightly below it's P'Li on her own, and after that we have Zuko, Water Korra and Ghazan.

That's just how I see it though.

I would mostly agree with that.

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#45 Posted by Huskii (99 posts) - - Show Bio

@tektonic:

What does being a fodder have to do with an attack that is clearly strong enough to fling a grown man several yards? Ming would still getting her scrawny self launched with a tornado version of this:

No Caption Provided

Because the comet doesn't grant new abilities, just enhances already present ones... Ming Hua doesn't swing through out entire battles and he could still target the root or middle of her arms.

He blocked an enormous fire blast by multiple fodder then converted it into the most powerful form of firebending, more powerful than anything Ming has. She could never get past his dragon fire. I can say the same thing about literally all of her attacks excluding her final form.

So what she has multiple arms? She can't even efficiently use them, Mako, knee high in water, outran her and avoided dozens of the arms. Kya survived getting knocked around by them. Like lol, Zuko can fire 12 fireblasts or create a fire barrier to deal with her weak arms anyway. Your false exaggerations are just that, false. Like I just said, Mako while in water could dodge all of her attacks and then had more than enough time for an counter:

If Zuko even needed to he could literally just run to avoid all of her pathetic inaccurate tentacles before he countered hard
If Zuko even needed to he could literally just run to avoid all of her pathetic inaccurate tentacles before he countered hard

And you somehow expect her to overwhelm Zuko when she can barely tag Mako here ^ Atleast Zuko has accuracy and his fire whips are stronger

What do you not understand? Ming Hua isn't "psychic" like you say. Whenever she bends, she has to first somehow CREATE ARMS, after they are equipped she uses them to bend like a normal waterbender, she can't make water attack and follow after people without first forming her arms. Example being:

If she's so psychic then why did she go through arm motions to lift Bolin from the pool?
If she's so psychic then why did she go through arm motions to lift Bolin from the pool?

Ridiculous. You make it seem as if her water arms have a mind of their own. Zuko can and will deal with them accordingly by running, evaporating them, or shielding himself. No way one tentacle will grab him as he vaporizes others, Ming Hua isn't even precise enough to do that as I already showed ahead. She has only shown the ability to flail them around without control attempting to hit the target, Mako, or just attacks with 2 and uses the others to swing of them like against Kya. Zuko simply fires off a bunch of fire blasts to counter and he wins. Zuko has amazing reaction and fire power he'll shoot each arm to destroy or repel them.

See that? It's called precision. Something Ming does not have. Coupled with his reaction. It'll allow Zuko to handle all of her pathetic water attacks.
See that? It's called precision. Something Ming does not have. Coupled with his reaction. It'll allow Zuko to handle all of her pathetic water attacks.

What Ming did wasn't even a water spout she was just twirling on water as she drew it towards her. What you said about Zuko's attack was a big false assumption that won't help her in this fight anyways, Aang as an airbender can easily fan out flames, Ming Hua can't. Show me Ming Hua even remotely defending against a fire blast of any size larger than standard. You can't.

Mako has easily drained her of her water supply and Zuko can too with his explosive attacks in which Ming has no answer to.

She can't even handle his normal fire
She can't even handle his normal fire

Ming Hua has a perfect counter to two mediocre slow benders but not Zuko, good. She's better than them both in everyway possible, and as another waterbender she could easily beat them. Don't know if you realized this, but a master is capable of easily countering an inferior opponent of the same element as opposed to an opponent of another. So yes she beat the twins because they are average fighters with slow reactions and stupid attacks. Ming Hua could never pull off what she did to them with a firebender of Zuko's calibur.

No Caption Provided

PATHETIC. Never catch this happening to anyone that's actually good.

Zuko won't ever be tagged by Ming. Besides his superior bending he is also physically a ninja.

Zuko running through a cavern of mud and ice would still manage to evade her.
Zuko running through a cavern of mud and ice would still manage to evade her.

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#46 Edited by Tektonic (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@huskii said:

@tektonic:

What does being a fodder have to do with an attack that is clearly strong enough to fling a grown man several yards? Ming would still getting her scrawny self launched with a tornado version of this:

No Caption Provided

The simple fact that fodder suck and are easily pushed around. It's not that hard to understand. No opponents worth their shit would be thrown away or put down by flames so weak they can only push you away.

Ming Hua has tanked worse than a bunch of flames that haven't injured anyone.

Example

Show me Zuko's useless spinning whatever showing enough force to shatter large boulders and indent others
Show me Zuko's useless spinning whatever showing enough force to shatter large boulders and indent others

Because the comet doesn't grant new abilities, just enhances already present ones... Ming Hua doesn't swing through out entire battles and he could still target the root or middle of her arms.

Exactly there's your answer. We have no idea how long it would take him or if he even could replicate attacks on that size or scale, so you completely wasted your time.

He blocked an enormous fire blast by multiple fodder then converted it into the most powerful form of firebending, more powerful than anything Ming has. She could never get past his dragon fire. I can say the same thing about literally all of her attacks excluding her final form.

Again there is your answer. It's best feat is blocking three basic attacks from fodder. None of them even showed the same power as Ming compressing a steel door. Nobody cares that it was pretty you have no idea what that entails so don't bother bringing it up.

So what she has multiple arms? She can't even efficiently use them, Mako, knee high in water, outran her and avoided dozens of the arms. Kya survived getting knocked around by them. Like lol, Zuko can fire 12 fireblasts or create a fire barrier to deal with her weak arms anyway. Your false exaggerations are just that, false. Like I just said, Mako while in water could dodge all of her attacks and then had more than enough time for an counter:

If Zuko even needed to he could literally just run to avoid all of her pathetic inaccurate tentacles before he countered hard
If Zuko even needed to he could literally just run to avoid all of her pathetic inaccurate tentacles before he countered hard

And you somehow expect her to overwhelm Zuko when she can barely tag Mako here ^ Atleast Zuko has accuracy and his fire whips are stronger.

Thanks for proving my point. All Mako did was outrun an arrogant Ming Hua and conveniently had the ability needed to defeat her. He never challenged her as he knew he would be easily overpowered. Same thing would happen to Zuko, but the difference is his rapid firing of fireblasts have low potency(see hallway), he will be easily overwhelmed by all the arms attacking, and he doesn't have lightning. So what does Zuko plan on doing while his fire whips are completely outnumbered and outgunned?

What do you not understand? Ming Hua isn't "psychic" like you say. Whenever she bends, she has to first somehow CREATE ARMS, after they are equipped she uses them to bend like a normal waterbender, she can't make water attack and follow after people without first forming her arms. Example being:

If she's so psychic then why did she go through arm motions to lift Bolin from the pool?
If she's so psychic then why did she go through arm motions to lift Bolin from the pool?

What don't you understand? Nice try but I won't let you run away from the gifs I posted. I want you to show me what motions and stances she is doing for the following:

Here

Stances, movements?
Stances, movements?
Stances, movements?
Stances, movements?
Stances, movements?
Stances, movements?
And the final nail in your coffin using the technique you just pointed out. What stances and movements is she using to continuously lift up this sphere of water while simultaneously lifting Bolin's head up?
And the final nail in your coffin using the technique you just pointed out. What stances and movements is she using to continuously lift up this sphere of water while simultaneously lifting Bolin's head up?

Ridiculous. You make it seem as if her water arms have a mind of their own.

No I never said that it's common knowledge that water is not sentient.

Zuko can and will deal with them accordingly by running,

His only hope and a futile one at that.

evaporating them,

His attacks aren't even strong enough.

or shielding himself.

With a pitiful twister.

No way one tentacle will grab him as he vaporizes others, Ming Hua isn't even precise enough to do that as I already showed ahead. She has only shown the ability to flail them around.

No that's your "boy" Zuko.

This is an example of of flailing things around. Look at how lazy the movement of his fire arms are.  They flop all over the place like a slingy. You thinks this will help? It's factually recoiling hella slow.
This is an example of of flailing things around. Look at how lazy the movement of his fire arms are. They flop all over the place like a slingy. You thinks this will help? It's factually recoiling hella slow.

without control attempting to hit the target,

She's hit her targets multiple times though.

Zuko simply fires off a bunch of fire blasts to counter and he wins. Zuko has amazing reaction and fire power he'll shoot each arm to destroy or repel them.

See that? It's called precision. Something Ming does not have. Coupled with his reaction. It'll allow Zuko to handle all of her pathetic water attacks.
See that? It's called precision. Something Ming does not have. Coupled with his reaction. It'll allow Zuko to handle all of her pathetic water attacks.

Your only showing of him rapid firing is again some really weak attacks that only light up lamps. If he wants anything useful he will have to charge up and waste time.

And Ming Hua doesn't have precision eh?

Let's see

At a meter or so distance she is able to narrow her water arms mid flight so that when they reach the chains(which are a centimeter in length at most) they are just as thin. Leaving P'li unharmed.
At a meter or so distance she is able to narrow her water arms mid flight so that when they reach the chains(which are a centimeter in length at most) they are just as thin. Leaving P'li unharmed.
Uses localized freezing to restrain Mako in one arm while holding Bolin captive in a perfect sphere of water but keeping his head above water to prevent drowning.
Uses localized freezing to restrain Mako in one arm while holding Bolin captive in a perfect sphere of water but keeping his head above water to prevent drowning.
Creates a blade using localized freezing that is discrete enough to get the job done with no noise while being rotated by the rest of her water arm akin to a geometrical compass. Note her also catching the disk before it could fall.
Creates a blade using localized freezing that is discrete enough to get the job done with no noise while being rotated by the rest of her water arm akin to a geometrical compass. Note her also catching the disk before it could fall.
Manipulating 20+ Air Nomad robes with human shaped water dummies creating a deceptively human outline.
Manipulating 20+ Air Nomad robes with human shaped water dummies creating a deceptively human outline.

What Ming did wasn't even a water spout she was just twirling on water as she drew it towards her.

What?

It clearly takes the form of a twister of water a.k.a waterspout.

No Caption Provided

What you said about Zuko's attack was a big false assumption that won't help her in this fight anyways, Aang as an airbender can easily fan out flames, Ming Hua can't. Show me Ming Hua even remotely defending against a fire blast of any size larger than standard. You can't.

Assumptions? Me having to show you anything? We have an onscreen example of Zuko tossing around a bunch of firewhips failing to damage anything than we have his attack enlarged and still easily overpowered, while hilariously causing next to know damage to a random hallway. I don't have to prove anything as far as I am concerned they might as well have been a standard fire blast. Aang being an airbender means nothing he has never always fanned flames out let alone with such ease it just proves that attack was shit.

Mako has easily drained her of her water supply and Zuko can too with his explosive attacks in which Ming has no answer to.

She can't even handle his normal fire
She can't even handle his normal fire

Why does she need an answer to something both unusable and of zero substance?

First of all I'll state the obvious. Zuko won't use that attack unless he is far enough not to be caught up in the explosion. NO different from when Mako used explosive blasts at the south pole on a plane.

No Caption Provided

Now let's move on to the fact that his explosions are all flash no substance.

As you can see the platform Zuko hit on the faraway air ship and the platform Azula was on took zero damage
As you can see the platform Zuko hit on the faraway air ship and the platform Azula was on took zero damage
Despite the massive explosion Zuko and Azula were in neither were hurt, when they are easily hurt by far smaller attacks
Despite the massive explosion Zuko and Azula were in neither were hurt, when they are easily hurt by far smaller attacks
This is what Zuko usually uses in combat
This is what Zuko usually uses in combat

Ming Hua has a perfect counter to two mediocre slow benders but not Zuko, good.

Say what?

Except they are fast enough to take down a speeding plane
Except they are fast enough to take down a speeding plane
And faster than electric boat
And faster than electric boat
And have showed more power than Zuko
And have showed more power than Zuko

She's better than them both in everyway possible, and as another waterbender she could easily beat them. Don't know if you realized this, but a master is capable of easily countering an inferior opponent of the same element as opposed to an opponent of another.

So...you do believe she has more power than them correct?

So yes she beat the twins because they are average fighters with slow reactions and stupid attacks. Ming Hua could never pull off what she did to them with a firebender of Zuko's calibur.

Except they aren't slow or weak.

No Caption Provided

PATHETIC. Never catch this happening to anyone that's actually good.

Except they are quite good.

Zuko won't ever be tagged by Ming. Besides his superior bending he is also physically a ninja.

And as for the image of zuko jumping the airships Zuko isn't moving particularly fast at all he literally has to defend himself mid air because he is traveling so damn slowly. All it is was him gather enough momentum to launch himself with enough force to travel that distance without breaks, Same thing Lin did when destroying the air ships and she wouldn't blitz Ming at all.

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#47 Edited by vengefulshot (1835 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000 said:
@vengefulshot said:

@anthp2000: I think Zuko isn't that far below them. He's quite skilled, has good scale and power, and great physicals. He just doesn't really excel at any of them (Katara skill, Toph scale, Azula physicals, Ming speed etc) so he falls back a little.

He is definetely close to them in bending skill (not quite on their level but close) but all of them excel at stuff like mobility or speed or scale or versatality etc.

Generally, I view everyone from Air Aang and Bumi to Zuko and Ghazan as high tiers close to each other, but I have them separated in a few "levels". Like, Bumi and Aang are up there on their own. Ming, Azula, Katara, Toph and Tenzin come after them. Then I have the Beifongs, Kuvira and Unalaq. Slightly below it's P'Li on her own, and after that we have Zuko, Water Korra and Ghazan.

That's just how I see it though.

I personally would have Bumi at the top on his own, then Unalaq. Air Aang next. Then Tenzin, P'li, Katara and Korra with water.

Then Azula, Ming Hua, Kuvira and Toph.

Ghazan, Bolin and Zuko after.

Then the Beifongs, earth Aang and fire or air Korra.

Then there's the mid tiers starting with Mako at the top. Mid tiers would get stomped by anyone on the water Korra level or above, but certain other high tiers would rek them too. (Kuvira would utterly destroy Mako for example).

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#48 Edited by ANTHP2000 (6555 posts) - - Show Bio

@vengefulshot said:
@anthp2000 said:
@vengefulshot said:

@anthp2000: I think Zuko isn't that far below them. He's quite skilled, has good scale and power, and great physicals. He just doesn't really excel at any of them (Katara skill, Toph scale, Azula physicals, Ming speed etc) so he falls back a little.

He is definetely close to them in bending skill (not quite on their level but close) but all of them excel at stuff like mobility or speed or scale or versatality etc.

Generally, I view everyone from Air Aang and Bumi to Zuko and Ghazan as high tiers close to each other, but I have them separated in a few "levels". Like, Bumi and Aang are up there on their own. Ming, Azula, Katara, Toph and Tenzin come after them. Then I have the Beifongs, Kuvira and Unalaq. Slightly below it's P'Li on her own, and after that we have Zuko, Water Korra and Ghazan.

That's just how I see it though.

I personally would have Bumi at the top on his own, then Unalaq. Air Aang next. Then Tenzin, P'li, Katara and Korra with water.

Then Azula, Ming Hua, Kuvira and Toph.

Ghazan, Bolin and Zuko after.

Then the Beifongs, earth Aang and fire or air Korra.

Eh, Unalaq is not even as high as he used to be on my list. He cannot use a waterspout outside of a water source and he doesn't have raw power that can content with the others outside of scale. Zuko could probably take him...

And I consider many of those mid tiers.

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#49 Edited by katrurius17 (443 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000 said:
@vengefulshot said:

@anthp2000: I think Zuko isn't that far below them. He's quite skilled, has good scale and power, and great physicals. He just doesn't really excel at any of them (Katara skill, Toph scale, Azula physicals, Ming speed etc) so he falls back a little.

He is definetely close to them in bending skill (not quite on their level but close) but all of them excel at stuff like mobility or speed or scale or versatality etc.

Generally, I view everyone from Air Aang and Bumi to Zuko and Ghazan as high tiers close to each other, but I have them separated in a few "levels". Like, Bumi and Aang are up there on their own. Ming, Azula, Katara, Toph and Tenzin come after them. Then I have the Beifongs, Kuvira and Unalaq. Slightly below it's P'Li on her own, and after that we have Zuko, Water Korra and Ghazan.

That's just how I see it though.

I second that and Ming wins this fight.

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#50 Posted by vengefulshot (1835 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: I wouldn't and tbh I'm still debating in my head whether the beifongs are high tier or top of mid.