Zuko and Katara vs Azula and Bolin

@vengefulshot:

Sokka is fodder to master benders. Next.

Sokka has in fact even a bit better durability feats than Katara. Next.

Wow disturbed a pond of water so impressive. Toph could bend a hand sized rock into the water and achieve the same effect.

I'm not sure if you're just playing dumb or are rly that ignorant, the amount of water is outright bigger than Azula herself and Toph would obviously need a much bigger object to replicate that:

Besides the fact that Katara couldn't even tank a bigger object that Toph throws just into her face.

It doesn't even conduct in the water how pathetic.

A single bolt that was shot straight into the water and literally smashed it into the air didn't conduct in the water is pathetic(lmao you can't be rly that ignorant, can you?), wow your physics teacher must be so proud of you(i rly hope that was just a pretty bad joke of yours)...

Never claimed they were

So you were just tipping words without any good reason?

, its a single target horribly weak attack.

And still easily strong enough to smash Katara to the ground and at minimum stun Zuko.

It's only attribute is that it is fast. Katara will block it effortlessly and Zuko will redirect it.

So Azula will effortlesly dodge all of Zuko's and Katara's even slower attacks and this ends as eternal stalemate, cause nobody has attacks to straight up blitz?

The second part is laughable Kataras entire arsenal has more scale than instant lightning making her attacks way harder to dodge.

Lmao if Azula can casually dodge shit like this:

can she obviously dodge Katara's attacks as well.

I wasn't referring to his former post just the one I quoted. Don't bring up posts and comments that I never even mentioned. It's a waste of my time.

You were refering to an analysis he never even made, so who knows to what you were actually refering to XD...

Environment heavily favours Bolin.

Yeah but Zuko has still a notable speed advantage.

See above for why I think Bolin has a better shot.

Now you're kinda downplaying Katara, she has far better options against Bolin than Zuko.

Zuko is at a physical disadvantage to Azula but bending wise they are almost even. Physicals are secondary to bending prowess.

Nope, Azula has far more versatility, better mobility with her bending and straight up better feats in the most regards of bending(he has some advantages as well but most of them aren't too helpful against Azula).

Shell spam power moves that neither of team 2 have the power to match (without the comet that is) and she'll substitute water blasts for water blades and ice bullets that will oneshot.

Katara's "power moves" need either a better area(like for her ship or poles feats) or are practically ineffective(like her big wave in the catacombs later on that just washed the distracted Dai Li and Zuko away but did no damage). And ice bullets are obviously pretty damn useless against Azula and not too great against Bolin either(earthshields and hell depending on the situation would even the lave melt them), water blades are better but nothing special for Katara and she used both already in character(even specifically against Azula).

He can dunk lava on them from above.

And how is that much different from just throwing bigger rocks or Azula throwing fire at them from above(if they can't even avoid dunked lave they obviously also can't avoid normal attacks, it's not like dunked lave would somehow be extremely fast)?

Except she did. Rewatch the fight, she dodges Azula out for a solid 60 seconds.

I'm not even sure what you're trying here now but blatant lies are rly not helpful for your case:

Azula appeared behind Katara(right after Katara threw her only actual attack at Azula's former position) at 7:45min of ATLA S03E21, Katara made her ice bridge at 7:47min and Azula's first attack came at 7:50min and melted the first ice bridge as Katara made her second bridge. At 7:52min shot Azula her second attack and at 7:54min started my gif.

So that whole part happened in under 10 seconds while Katara's ice bridges survived 7-8 seconds. And yeah i'm aware that you at first said 5 seconds but Bolin could obviously also survive just 5 seconds against Zuko if he desperately runs(or in Katara's case surfs) for his life and Katara was by no means dancing around Azula, more importantly Azula would be fresh, not insane and there is no helpful cover in the catacombs this time.

Sanity doesn't give Azula more scale or power or mobility.

Sanity gives Azula more presicion, skill and far better use of her abilities(including all mobility options)

Furthermore, she has far more water to work with here

No, the water don't magically appears besides her and she would've obviously no time to draw it, this isn't a pole.

the one and only reason she stopped was because she ran out of water as you can see from the gif you so kindly provided

You mean the same gif were we explicitly see that the whole area at the right side of Katara is covered by Azula's fire, which obviously means your idea of continuing to surf there would be blank suicide:

and finally, she doesn't need a grate of water because she doesn't need to beat Azula, simply survive her long enough for Zuko to fodderise Bolin.

Just with the little problem that Bolin could also try to survive until Azula has fodderised Katara and considering the fact that we are talking just about a few seconds longer Katara could survive than Bolin is that a rly tough bet on Katara's life(and i'm not even 100% sure if they're morals off in the bonus, cause if not would Zuko never ever let that scenario happen).

Azula is not good enough to beat Zuko faster than Katara beats Bolin.

You gave Bolin 4/10 against Katara while morals off, you're not very consistent with your own claims huh?

She is not good enough to catch Katara faster than Zuko kills Bolin.

Based on what exactly and how teleports Zuko himself instantly between Azula and Katara if that actually happens?

Then she gets flanked and double teamed.

You're acting like Katara would be more than a distraction against this now significantly more dangerous Azula than in the actual Agni Kai(and hell it even sounds a bit like Katara would be around comet Zuko lvl XD), which is obviously not the case and just the most delusional Katara fans could even think about that. What if Azula realizes that Katara appears and changes the fight to a position where Katara simply can't flank her(another advantage of not being insane, she wouldn't fight as dumb as she did)?

Bolin is a weak link but in this environment hes much stronger than youre suggesting.

Apparently not, i would give Katara 7,5/10 and you 7/10 against Bolin, i would give Zuko 6,5/10 and you 6/10 against Bolin.

Based off of nothing other than severe downplaying of Katara,

Ha let's see:

Katara has been shown to possess power able to block comet enhanced charged lightning

Her water just vaporized and she was running away.

, the strongest attack in Azulas arsenal.

I'm pretty sure you were the one who established the point that lightning hasn't much scale and Azula's wouldn't even use her telegraphed show lightning in the middle of a fight without insanity, cause it's not her best/most effective attack by any means.

She has been shown to dodge around comet flames with iceboarding.

She survived 7-8 seconds on them against an exhausted + completely insane Azula who just shot two attacks.

Azulas sanity doesn't do anything to her bending

Besides the effective use of her bending.

it's literally the exact same, just now she wont be careless and step over a body of water.

Which was the only reason why Katara didn't get murdered in the end.

Bolin is a non factor because his defence isn't nearly as good as Kataras and neither is his mobility, both of which are absolutely crucial for the non comet enhanced members in round 2.

So is he now much bettercin this area than i'm suggesting or not? Bolin has decent defenses and Zuko isn't know for using explosive blasts or high concussive force that much(there is a very good reason why Aang's earth defenses were so effective against Ozai at first, the only firebender wo threw consistently enough concussive force and explosive blasts around was Azula herself), besides the fact that Bolin still also would survive a few seconds if he trys to run for his life.

@arcus1:

Maybe Katara had landed at attack before that one.

Headcanon is rly the worst possible argument period and we explicitly saw Azula just standing there without any implication that she got hit.

Maybe the animators just wanted to show Katara landing a hit in the transition scene and weren't thinking about people trying to debate it years in the future. Maybe it just doesn't matter

Or maybe Azula was just blatantly jobbing for plot reasons(and to make the scene more dramatic), like she already did on the drill(after knocking out Aang). And are you aware that what you said is true for the most fictional works, which is why we use concepts like jobbing in the first place?

What speed feats does Azula have that put her so far above Katara?

Is that questions serious? Outspeeding Zuko, tagging Aang again and again while consistently keeping up with him and dodging very fast things as most important parts.

Actually, more importantly, what showings indicate that Katara should be slow?

Her lack of good speed feats(that's still how it works here) outside of the catacombs fight and quite a few anti feats(against General Fong, some Dai Li and Ty Lee just out the top of my head for example) as well to be frank.

To be inconsistent, you'd need something to indicate that Katara should be too slow to keep up with Azula that well.

Actually no i wouldn't even need that(but there is), Katara had not a single other feat remotely comparable with blitzing Azula with that telegraphed spash, this is what we call an outlier and inconsistent(and not just on the vine).

When has Katara failed to be fast enough to suggest she could match Azula?

Again: General Fong, some Dai Li and Ty Lee just out of the top of my head(i've actually made a not too small anti feats list for the whole Gaang, Ozai's Angels and CM a long while ago in a different forum and will try to find that).

And who's arguing for Katara blitzing Azula? The Catacombs fight wasn't a blitz, and even then, I don't see anyone saying that Azula and Katara aren't comparable.

What was the catacombs encounter then in your opinion, considering that Katara just gained the upperhand as she outright blitzed Azula(well or as Azula was blatlantly jobbing and just standing around, take your poison)?

As for arguments for Katara edging out Azula, what evidence could be better than a straight up fight between the two characters

Actual consistent feats, logical arguments and things that happened not in B2(B3 Azula has still better feats than B2 Azula and she also showed jet propulsion the first time right after her short encounter with Katara) among other things tbh.

the only even fight between them in the show?

If the fight was even how gives that Katara any edge?

Katara's a master based on Pakku's praise

And Zhao on Iroh's praise iirc, "master" is rly just a pretty damn useless title in ATLA(Zuko has beaten a firebending master and Azula was so far beyond that Zuko that she would be an absolute grandmaster following that logic).

beating Hama

You aren't rly comparing Hama with normal waterbending with Azula, are you? The bloodbending struggle is a great feat for Katara but more than obviously completely irrelevant against Azula(except with full moon but that would be just silly in R2).

beating Zuko

You mean B1 Zuko? This Zuko:

etc.

Hmmm?

Even you seem to be agreeing that Azula and Katara are on the same tier at least,

Sure based on their actual feats, Azula just a bit higher due to a bit better feats and with the current gap being a bit bigger due to the comics(Kemurikage Azula simply improved more than Katara/showed more relevant feats).

so I'm not entirely sure what the problem is?

That you apparently give Katara an edge based on a single higly inconsistent incident in B2 by ignoring their actual consistent feats is my problem.

That would be in this case theoretically even very true, then again(Krillin would still somehow find a way to die XD):

@itachus17

Sokka has in fact even a bit better durability feats than Katara. Next.

And this is relevant how? Instant lightning will never hit Katara.

I'm not sure if you're just playing dumb or are rly that ignorant, the amount of water is outright bigger than Azula herself and Toph would obviously need a much bigger object to replicate that:

At point blank range, Azulas instant lightning was able to cause a splash that appears at best slightly bigger than her (a 15-16 year old girl), mostly because the splash is in the foreground and she is in the background. How on earth is this impressive? Even Tophs smallest attacks have far more impressive potency feats.

Besides the fact that Katara couldn't even tank a bigger object that Toph throws just into her face.

Simply incorrect. Katara has already tanked things like Huus slaps which were quite casually destroying full metal firenation tanks like nothing. Which brings me back to the questionable claim that Sokka has better durability (and Sokka himself wasn't even hurt, just embarrassed). Have you ever considered that Katara has very few durability feats because she almost zero instances of actually being hit due to her staunch defence and impressive mobility moves, despite the numerous fights she has been in?

A single bolt that was shot straight into the water and literally smashed it into the air didn't conduct in the water is pathetic(lmao you can't be rly that ignorant, can you?), wow your physics teacher must be so proud of you(i rly hope that was just a pretty bad joke of yours)...

Yes, it was quite sad honestly. Despite lightning supposedly "countering" water, Azulas couldn't even conduct or spread within the water, and managed to barely move a material that is incredibly easily displaced when not in the direct control of a bender. It was pathetic, much like your attitude and "jokes".

So you were just tipping words without any good reason

Where did I ever type that Kataras attacks were faster than Azulas?

And still easily strong enough to smash Katara to the ground and at minimum stun Zuko.

Will be so effortlessly blocked by even a single pouch of water.

So Azula will effortlesly dodge all of Zuko's and Katara's even slower attacks and this ends as eternal stalemate, cause nobody has attacks to straight up blitz?

Kataras attacks aren't slow. Azulas agility feats aren't good enough to consistently dodge massive aoe water attacks.

Lmao if Azula can casually dodge shit like this:

"LMAO" because obviously a human sized boulder from Aang, whos earthbending is below Kataras waterbending anyway= being able to casually dodge:

Gallery

Because logic.

You were refering to an analysis he never even made, so who knows to what you were actually refering to XD...

Except he did as I quoted it. Learn to read.

Yeah but Zuko has still a notable speed advantage.

One physical attribute that is secondary to bending prowess.

Now you're kinda downplaying Katara, she has far better options against Bolin than Zuko.

No, Bolin is just very powerful in this environment as are most earthbenders. This is not a neutral environment.

Nope, Azula has far more versatility,

No she doesn't.

better mobility with her bending

Yes.

and straight up better feats in the most regards of bending(he has some advantages as well but most of them aren't too helpful against Azula).

Based on?

Katara's "power moves" need either a better area(like for her ship or poles feats) or are practically ineffective(like her big wave in the catacombs later on that just washed the distracted Dai Li and Zuko away but did no damage). And ice bullets are obviously pretty damn useless against Azula and not too great against Bolin either(earthshields and hell depending on the situation would even the lave melt them), water blades are better but nothing special for Katara and she used both already in character(even specifically against Azula).

No they don't. There is plenty of water in the catacombs. Her wave vs Azula in season 2 barely used any of that water.

Except it obviously did as the Dai Li were out of the picture for at least 10 seconds. If this was a later version of Katara she would have frozen them all solid as they were soaking wet.

Basic waterslaps are also pretty useless against most competent benders yet Azula still manged to walk into one. It simply means that if she gets hit she dies.

Kataras ice attacks have pierced and embedded into solid rock before.

Which Azula almost walked into as well. She barely dodged 1, how can she hope to manage against dozens per second.

And how is that much different from just throwing bigger rocks or Azula throwing fire at them from above(if they can't even avoid dunked lave they obviously also can't avoid normal attacks, it's not like dunked lave would somehow be extremely fast)?

Harder to react too, as it comes from unexpected directions. Azula throwing fire on them from above has nowhere near the same effect as they still originate from her position. Furthermore I never said Katara cant deal with it but it makes things harder and is something she has to work around.

I'm not even sure what you're trying here now but blatant lies are rly not helpful for your case:

Azula appeared behind Katara(right after Katara threw her only actual attack at Azula's former position) at 7:45min of ATLA S03E21, Katara made her ice bridge at 7:47min and Azula's first attack came at 7:50min and melted the first ice bridge as Katara made her second bridge. At 7:52min shot Azula her second attack and at 7:54min started my gif.

So that whole part happened in under 10 seconds while Katara's ice bridges survived 7-8 seconds. And yeah i'm aware that you at first said 5 seconds but Bolin could obviously also survive just 5 seconds against Zuko if he desperately runs(or in Katara's case surfs) for his life and Katara was by no means dancing around Azula, more importantly Azula would be fresh, not insane and there is no helpful cover in the catacombs this time.

Azula shot Zuko and starting spamming fire and lightning at Katara 3:21. Despite being amped to 100x times her normal power and scale, she then failed to land any hit on Katara all the way up to 4:46, a whopping 1 minute and 25 seconds, after which she lost. How sad.

As I stated before she only stopped because she ran out of her already meagre supply of water. She has a continuous flow from the waterfall here, and bigger rivers, she has way more to work with.

Are you actually suggesting that Bolin running away will be anywhere near as effective as surfing away on water. And accuse others of lowballing? Hah, how ironic.

There is large stone pillars in the catacombs which will do nicely.

Sanity gives Azula more presicion,

Utterly baseless all her attacks in the series finale were dodged or blocked. She has barely any notable precision feats to begin with. INB4 shooting a distracted Iroh 3 feet away in the chest is considered a good precision feat.

skill

Her most effective skill which is lightning was ineffective vs both Zuko and Katara.

and far better use of her abilities(including all mobility options)

Crazula showed the most advanced use of fire jets we have seen from her. Prove she can do it better.

No, the water don't magically appears besides her and she would've obviously no time to draw it, this isn't a pole.

Nonsense she has plenty of feats of firing off large attacks quite casually.

And she can also use water that is far away from her anyway.

You mean the same gif were we explicitly see that the whole area at the right side of Katara is covered by Azula's fire, which obviously means your idea of continuing to surf there would be blank suicide:

? She ran out of water which is why she stopped. Changing the direction of the surf had nothing to do with it. Here she will not have that issue.

Just with the little problem that Bolin could also try to survive until Azula has fodderised Katara and considering the fact that we are talking just about a few seconds longer Katara could survive than Bolin is that a rly tough bet on Katara's life(and i'm not even 100% sure if they're morals off in the bonus, cause if not would Zuko never ever let that scenario happen).

Except Bolin does not have the correct tools available to survive even one attack from comet enhanced zuko where as Katara has several to deal with Azula including blocking her lightning and surfing around the fire. Did you even read my last post? I explicitly stated that Bolin does not have the defensive capabilities or the mobility skills of Katara. The last part is incoherent.

You gave Bolin 4/10 against Katara while morals off, you're not very consistent with your own claims huh?

Sure, and he still loses. Katara vs Bolin would be resolved faster than Zuko vs Azula. It's perfectly consistent, you just lack the comprehension skill to understand my claims.

Based on what exactly and how teleports Zuko himself instantly between Azula and Katara if that actually happens?

Based on Kataras far superior defence, her far superior mobility, and based off of her very own performance vs Azula under the comet, compared to Bolins performance vs... no one.

Zuko and Azulas attacks were covering the courtyard and some were spanning parts of the entire city. More than enough range to reach anywhere in the catacombs.

You're acting like Katara would be more than a distraction against this now significantly more dangerous Azula than in the actual Agni Kai(and hell it even sounds a bit like Katara would be around comet Zuko lvl XD), which is obviously not the case and just the most delusional Katara fans could even think about that. What if Azula realizes that Katara appears and changes the fight to a position where Katara simply can't flank her(another advantage of not being insane, she wouldn't fight as dumb as she did)?

A distraction is all that is needed to tip the scales against her.

Then Katara can simply surf around to flank her again whilst Zuko wails on her with comet amped fire blasts.

Never said she would, but her sanity isn't enough to let her go from losing to both an amped Zuko and unamped Katara, to actually beating both together.

Apparently not, i would give Katara 7,5/10 and you 7/10 against Bolin, i would give Zuko 6,5/10 and you 6/10 against Bolin.

Normally hed lose 9/10 to Katara and and 7/10 to Zuko. The environment helps him theres earth in every single direction now.

Her water just vaporized and she was running away.

Azulas charged that bolt for 3 or so seconds and it still couldn't break though her shield. Sad.

I'm pretty sure you were the one who established the point that lightning hasn't much scale and Azula's wouldn't even use her telegraphed show lightning in the middle of a fight without insanity, cause it's not her best/most effective attack by any means.

Azulas scale is mediocre anyway but fine, Ill rephrase. Azulas charged lightning is the most potent attack in her entire arsenal, and even under the comets effects, it could do no more than stalemate Kataras shield.

If she can get it off it is. But yes in a straight up fight she will never get it off vs Katara. Frankly I have no idea why Katara didn't just launch a tonne of water at her whilst she stood stationary charging anyway, but that's besides the point I guess.

She survived 7-8 seconds on them against an exhausted + completely insane Azula who just shot two attacks.

Lasted way longer than that. Azulas insanity didn't effect her scale, her precision (which wasn't anything special like Kuvira or mai level to begin with) or her speed and mobility. That second attack was one of the biggest attacks she showed that entire fight including her fight with Zuko.

Besides the effective use of her bending.

Which is tactics and strategy, not bending skill/versatility or prowess.

Which was the only reason why Katara didn't get murdered in the end.

Irrelevant statement is irrelevant, Katara doesn't need to win just stall.

So is he now much bettercin this area than i'm suggesting or not?

Yes, his offence is a lot better because he can now attack from lots of different directions.

Bolin has decent defenses

Sure just not on Kataras level.

and Zuko isn't know for using explosive blasts or high concussive force that much

By the end of the series, yes he was.

(there is a very good reason why Aang's earth defenses were so effective against Ozai at first, the only firebender wo threw consistently enough concussive force and explosive blasts around was Azula herself)

Aangs earth defence was worthless vs Ozai unless you count the earth ball and the use of the natural rock pillars to deal with lightning.

Azula almost never starts out with concussive firebending and almost always uses it towards the end of the fight when her opponents defence are blocking her other attacks.

, besides the fact that Bolin still also would survive a few seconds if he trys to run for his life.

Through a combination of ice boarding and "running for her life" Katara lasted 1 minute and a half vs Azula. Bolin would last around 5 seconds.

@itachus17: Honestly good post , I disagree with some things but I see where you are coming from. Not including the comics, Zuko and Azula are simply even to me by the EOS, with Azula having a slight edge maybe. I personally think Zuko in the comics would give Azula from the comics a very good fight, but come up short, just my opinion though. I think I will just agree to disagree with you on this if that is cool? Good points, I'd like to do a CaV with you about battles between some characters in avatar some time, good debate.

@vengefulshot: Thanks man , could have been a little better though, but I appreciate the mention

azula/bolin in a tough fight, bolin w/mvp.