Zuko and Katara vs Azula and Bolin

@itachus17:

@theoriginalone: Sleep deprivation is the condition of not having enough sleep. Just because you are stressed, fatigued, or tired doesn't mean ur sleep deprived. Are they symptoms of sleep deprivation? Sure. Sleep deprivation is much more severe then recent stress not repeating this again.

Again this is all affecting her mental prowess not physical.

Again this is where the disagreement happens you think recent Stress lowers one's stats to a massive degree whilst I Don't. Its literally a matter of opinion.

@theoriginalone: You're a dumbass lmfao those are just symptoms. Just because she has those symptoms doesn't mean she was sleep deprived. I could have a severe breathing problem does it mean I have lung cancer? Also she was never shown fatigued before the fight. Being moody irritable etc can just mean your stressed. You seem to be trying to push that she's sleep deprived just because she had eye bags and a mental breakdown. It doesn't work like that. Earlier on the same day they fought Azula didn't have eye bags meaning that she wasn't sleep deprived the day before. Severe stress enough to cause eyebags doesn't correlate to sleep deprivation because the stress itself caused it. I don't know how much times I'm going to tell you this through your thick head because you're really not proving anything. Humans only need sleep once a night not during the day, not sleeping during the day no matter how stressed u are doesn't give you sleep deprivation jesus christ.

When was she shown tired before the fight.

No getting eye bags doesn't decrease ur stats. Stress really doesn't affect ur physical prowess unless its constant and over time and even then it doesn't decrease by much. Pretty sure the article read says stress can cause fatigue meaning the effect of stress is different among people no matter how severe. Meanwhile the effects of bloodlust is the same among everybody more adrenaline pumping=pain tolerance, stamina, speed, strength this is undeniable. You can't prove the stress made her fatigue unless u show me her getting tired from it before the fight ill concede if you do.

+1

Azula beats Katara ( would stomp with comics feats ).

Zuko beats Bolin.

Azula beats Zuko.

@theoriginalone: But she literally slept the day before. Show her not being able to sleep. You don't seem to understand the definiton sleep deprivation.(Sleep deprivation is the condition of not having enough sleep. ... A chronic sleep-restricted state can cause fatigue, daytime sleepiness, clumsiness and weight loss or weight gain. It adversely affects the brain and cognitive function.)Show me her failing to sleep ill wait. Like I said 3 times now, severe stress doesn't always make you fatigue or tired. Its different among many people and its usually stress over many days that causes such effects.

Trouble tieing her hair and hallucination = mental u dummy. You admit she was relaxing the whole they then says she's tired? ok?

Wow I can't believe people like you actually get angry from losing an argument. You seem to be repeating the same points over and over again even though I've already debunked it all. You refuse to accept anything I say. The quote you posted says can meaning some people don't actual get tired from stress. Getting eye bags from stress doesn't always=getting tired/fatigued. Getting eye bags from sleep deprivation is another story.

I see you can't actually prove she was sleep deprived or getting tired from stress. She was severely stressed thats it. Well I don't like repeating my arguments to someone who doesn't understand a word definition so I hope you get educated from this final post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5clkiJ_azL8 If you still think she was tired/fatigued then I've lost hope in you.

@itachus17: Are you going to reply to his garbage?

@lilcabbage:

https://www.bustle.com/p/weird-things-are-totally-normal-when-you-have-anxiety-30572

Read this before you reply to me - this destroy your whole argument:

"On top of all that weirdness, anxiety is almost as physically exhausting as it is mentally taxing. On the days when my anxiety is significantly high, it’s not weird at all for me to suffer from chest pains, fatigue, and stomach problems. Even on “good days,” my anxiety usually results in near-constant jaw pain, because I unconsciously clench my jaw when I’m feeling nervous or stressed out. Since I’m way too familiar with the strange side-effects that accompany anxiety, I decided to get a professional’s input on the topic."

"Anyone who struggles with anxiety knows that it affects so much more than your mental state. The mind and body are connected, so dealing with anxiety means dealing with its many physical side effects as well. The physical manifestations of anxiety can be vast, too. Muscle tension, heart palpitations, excessive sweating, trembling, chills, hot flashes, headache, chest pain, nausea, frequent urination or diarrhea, skin irritations, (like rashes and hives) and even exhaustion can accompany anxiety. What's even worse than all of that? According to Sueskind, "these symptoms can provoke even more stress, creating a self-perpetuating cycle." So basically, someone who's mentally ill is going to feel physically ill more often than not."

I underlined and highlighted the main parts for you as I know you are slow.

For some reason, I have constantly seen people downplay Zuko and it really gets to me sometimes. I can respect someone saying that a sane Azula may be better than him at the end of book 3, but for those who are saying that he loses comfortably and even still gets stomped I respectfully disagree with. Zuko, in my opinion, was approaching her at the end of book 2 based off their fights. He was basically stalemating Aang, she was losing to katara, he was stalemating Katara, and she was having an edge over Aang. Now I am not saying that Zuko is even to her at the end of Book 2, but he is getting closer and could give her a fight. Book 3 Zuko post dragon training in my opinion is basically even with her (maybe giving her a very slight edge).

I know people are going to bring up Iroh saying he could not handle Azula (even though he stalemated her twice before that, and if someone says Sokka had a part in that first fight, rewatch it and you will see that Zuko literally waited till he was back behind him until he stroke, and you will see how little Sokka played). Iroh had not seen Zuko fight in a while, so I simply can not take his word as credible in that specific scenario. I believe that Zuko took Katara to have a sure victory, knowing that Azula very well could beat him and did not want to take that chance. Now I am not downplaying Azula, I think she is actually above Katara by a little bit, but I just feel like Zuko is downplayed. Its my thread and I made it because I was curious on who wins with these teams, and I still do not know who I give the edge to, but I am coming to a conclusion.

If anyone would like to debate my claims, I am happy to have a good clash with you, thanks.

Zuko and Katara.

Maybe, it gets pretty annoying with him.

Katara got the upper hand against Azula in the Catacombs. You can attribute it to Azula underestimating a "peasant" like Katara, but it's not PIS just because one of her attacks wasn't animated as quickly as you'd like or "they could've done....etc." It happened, fair and square. It could happen differently in a rematch, but the fight clearly establishes Katara as being at least a match for Azula

Also, Azula's insanity was clearly hurting her in the finale fight with Zuko, that's why Zuko was able to be superior. That being said, his fights with her at Boiling Rock and the Western Air Temple were significantly closer than his fights with her in Book 2, to the point that they were almost even

Both these things have been debated so many times, but I guess they're bound to come up again

As for this fight

R1: I'm thinking Zuko and Katara for a slim majority, Zuko's probably a tad better than Bolin, and Katara has an edge on Azula. Alternatively, I think Katara would have an edge on Bolin as well and should be able to take him while Zuko holds Azula

R2: Zuko and Azula are gonna have to fight each other this time, and I think Azula would eventually win, but it'd be a long fight. Assuming the firebenders don't take Katara/Bolin out at the beginning, one of them could turn the tide of Azula vs Zuko. I think Katara would edge out Bolin, but bloodlusted lavabending could catch her off guard. 50/50, maybe

@cs1013:

If anyone would like to debate my claims, I am happy to have a good clash with you, thanks.

Gladly :).

For some reason, I have constantly seen people downplay Zuko and it really gets to me sometimes.

Hmmm like i already mentioned here, Zuko is actually my favourite character of the whole Avatarverse but sane(let alone Kemurikage) Azula is clearly a better bender/fighter.

I can respect someone saying that a sane Azula may be better than him at the end of book 3, but for those who are saying that he loses comfortably and even still gets stomped I respectfully disagree with.

I would say he loses clearly in the end but puts up a fight, he gets sure as hell not stomped anymore.

Zuko, in my opinion, was approaching her at the end of book 2 based off their fights.

Nope, rly can't agree with that.

He was basically stalemating Aang and she was having an edge over Aang.

All what happened there was highly inconsistent, but Azula literally just smacked Aang away:

she was losing to katara, he was stalemating Katara

Yes but Azula blatantly jobbed against Katara and was performing far worse than usually:

It starts with this madness here(even Sokka would have casually dodged that highly telegraphed and not especially fast attack):

So Zuko could rly just approach(or rather surpass) jobbing Azula with that comparison.

Now I am not saying that Zuko is even to her at the end of Book 2, but he is getting closer and could give her a fight.

Not that close if we compare their actual feats to be frank.

Book 3 Zuko post dragon training in my opinion is basically even with her (maybe giving her a very slight edge).

Not by actual feats, Avatar Extras and character statements including Zuko's own statements.

I know people are going to bring up Iroh saying he could not handle Azula

Iroh is actually the least important part for me, Zuko's own statements their actual feats and the context of their fights are the main reasons.

(even though he stalemated her twice before that

Not rly, the first fight was inconclusive and had a lot of context and the second was already gliding into insanity Azula and would have ended with Zuko's dead without help of the Gaang(Appa).

and if someone says Sokka had a part in that first fight, rewatch it and you will see that Zuko literally waited till he was back behind him until he stroke, and you will see how little Sokka played).

Sokka was clearly helpful there but more importantly was Azula's extremely unfavourable position(which is the only reason why Sokka was even a notable help in the first place), she was quite literally balancing on the edge of the Gondola and could barely use her significant agility advantage and Zuko + Sokka used a very smart tactic to restrict her even more(but were still not able to actually best her).

Iroh had not seen Zuko fight in a while, so I simply can not take his word as credible in that specific scenario.

Zuko himself agreed with Iroh, i rarely take anything but life advises seriously from Iroh (especially after Azula pretty soundly disproved his peace of mind neccesary for lightning theory XD).

I believe that Zuko took Katara to have a sure victory, knowing that Azula very well could beat him and did not want to take that chance.

Hmmm look at Zuko's explanation to Katara, right before the Agni Kai(quotes from IMDB):

Azula: Wait. You want to be Fire Lord? Fine. Let's settle this. Just you and me, brother. The showdown that was always meant to be: Agni Kai.

Prince Zuko: You're on!

Katara: What are you doing? She's playing you. She knows she can't take us both, so she's trying to separate us.

Prince Zuko: I know, but I can take her this time.

Katara: But even you admitted to your uncle that you would need help facing Azula.

Prince Zuko: There's something off about her. I can't explain it, but she's slipping, and this way, no one else has to get hurt.

It's pretty clear that he only thinks he can take her cause she's slipping and that is also consistent with the other statements and the Avatar Extras.

Now I am not downplaying Azula, I think she is actually above Katara by a little bit, but I just feel like Zuko is downplayed.

I think Zuko gets pretty often downplayed but i find it rly hard to make a case for him being nigh even to sane Azula, i mean i could maybe interpret the statements differently if the feats would tell a different story(but Azula's actual feats in terms of versatility, potency, agility, etc... are straight up just too good, Zuko's are also good but rly not comparable for the most parts and the majority of his actual advantages are simply not too useful against Azula).

Its my thread and I made it because I was curious on who wins with these teams, and I still do not know who I give the edge to, but I am coming to a conclusion.

Well i still think this(but like mentioned Zuko would put up a fight against Azula, let alone Katara):

It goes imo:

Azula >= Katara > Zuko > Bolin

R1 + R2: Going with team 1 in a pretty close fight.

Bonus: Team 2 decisively, that is rly just between the Royal siblings.

@itachus17: The blantanly jobbing part is what I can’t agree with . You use parts of the fight where you believe based off Azula previous feats she should have not let happen , but let me ask you this : why was aang not able to catch azula on black sun, even though he has shown to run as fast as a blur and literally create tornadoes off his running ? Why did aang not dodge that straightforward blast in the crystal catacombs ? Why did zuko just stand there when aang sent that air image blast of himself ? There are a lot of instances where characters let something happen even though previous feats show they shouldn’t . There is no logical reason on why azula wouldn’t be on top of her game , and maybe in the context of the fight , katara was simply outfighting her .

Also with the gondola fight . When azula and zuko are fighting each other, neither can gain the edge . Zuko is quite easily stopping her attacks and vice versa . I’ll put it like this , if sokka wasn’t there , it would still be a stalemate.

With the southern raiders fight , azula may have just experienced betrayals, but she is still in her top fighting form . She is not wild , and still basically controlled . It was simply a stalemate once again . And yes Zuko May have died when they blasted each other off the gondola , but the fight itself was even and nothing can refute that .

Then when zuko submits to his uncle , it makes no sense . He just faught her evenly twice mind you , and had no hesitation to fight her. He could have retreated at the southern raiders fight , but he chose to stay behind . But when his uncle says he can’t hanfle her ( not even knowing how he fights now ) zuko submits ? It doesn’t make sense to me . I think he did it out of respect and also because he knew going alone was not a sure victory , and that’s a risk he could not take .

I am only talking about the azula in the series , not comics ( even though zuko in my opinion has gotten better in the comics , and he managed to beat her in of their fights , but I do say she is a little superior )

Azula simply remained stagnant in abilities to me based off feats and zuko got better to point where he could match her evenly . A slight superiority for azula sure , but I can’t say she wins more than a 6/10 majority , and it’s only my opinion

This is basically spot on analysis, even comic Azula didn't see huge growth. Her physicals got better and that's it. Her instant lightning is a non factor vs this teams and most teams that have a shred of agility/defence /redirection. It's striking power is near worthless.

As for this fight, Katara is a clear mvp and can handle Azula, and whilst Bolin vs zuko is very close bending wise, Zukos physicals and his loser morals give him a 6/10 advantage giving him a victory if it's IC as Bolin wont utilise the advantage the environment gives him.

Alternatively, Katara can beat Bolin morals on high dif due to location in a 7/10 and Zuko is a good match for Azula, and should clinch a 4/10 minority from her in extremely good fights.

Morals off Katara is utterly brutal but Bolin has a large environmental advantage and should give her a very good match down there. Maybe 60:40 in Kataras favour. Azula can beat Zuko, the comet doesn't change the difficulty of the fight or the outcome. Alternatively, Katara can dance around Azula with ice bridges and slides for the 5 seconds it takes for Zuko to eliminate Bolin.

Team 1 both rounds, I find them more impressive overall and that should be enough to edge out Bolins environmental advantage. A very good fight nonetheless.

@cs1013:

The blantanly jobbing part is what I can’t agree with .

I don't know how else i should call that.

You use parts of the fight where you believe based off Azula previous feats she should have not let happen

Indeed it was incredibly inconsistent.

but let me ask you this : why was aang not able to catch azula on black sun, even though he has shown to run as fast as a blur

So first of all Aang is a notorious jobber in character(Azula is not). Second Azula has obviously better reactions than that, blur speed(towards fodder) is rly not that impressive, she was blatantly faster than Zuko in their first two encounters who did this:

Reacted casually without aim-dodging to an arrow shot by a superhuman(arrows already reach faster than eye speed towards usual humans if shot by usual humans):

and reacted even to an explosion in B1(where Aang also performed these feats and Iroh reacted to natural lightning, the latter could also not react to Azula as he was slightly distracted btw):

Do i rly need to tell you how fast explosions are, or what Azula did in her first encounter with Zuko:

and here is Irog the "lightning timer":

And the biggest difference is, Azula consistently kept up with Aang since their first encounter and Aang even explicitly told us this in black sun:

I can't beat her down, she's too quick!

That is by no means comparable with Azula suddenly turning into a completely incompetent rookie in the catacombs.

and literally create tornadoes off his running

Aang obviously used airbending to create these, otherwise would we go into Flash/SM/WW territory and could also start with lightning timing interpretations(Zuko reacted to Azula's Agni Kai lightning that easily traveled with multi-Mach speed out of the capital) again.

Why did aang not dodge that straightforward blast in the crystal catacombs ?

Cause he wasn't even trying to dodge that and was deliberately traveling towards her by using earthbending.

Why did zuko just stand there when aang sent that air image blast of himself ?

Zuko was in complete contrary to Azula clearly not just uselessly standing there:

He was at that point attacking(which Azula never did in her encounter with Katara after her initial attack) and obviously tried to block it, he even just partly failed(he blocked it enough to instantly continue) and reacted to the next attack:

There are a lot of instances where characters let something happen even though previous feats show they shouldn’t .

Not rly, there were usually either context or it were notorious jobbers(which Azula clearly is not)

There is no logical reason on why azula wouldn’t be on top of her game

Exactly, which is called PIS(plot induced stupidity).

and maybe in the context of the fight , katara was simply outfighting her .

Just if we accept that B2 Katara is the fastest bender period(which would be necessary to outright blitz Azula with a highly telegraphed splash like that), which i don't cause it would be just hilariously inconsistent(and they should've just sent her to deal with Ozai then...).

Also with the gondola fight . When azula and zuko are fighting each other, neither can gain the edge .

Yeah makes sense in the context.

Zuko is quite easily stopping her attacks and vice versa .

Azula's advantages were not only more potency.

I’ll put it like this , if sokka wasn’t there , it would still be a stalemate.

I doubt it but due to the context still relatively close.

With the southern raiders fight , azula may have just experienced betrayals, but she is still in her top fighting form.

Hell no period.

She is not wild, and still basically controlled.

She was already notably less controlled than usually and didn't use her advantages very effectively.

It was simply a stalemate once again .

Not rly.

And yes Zuko May have died when they blasted each other off the gondola , but the fight itself was even and nothing can refute that .

Except the fact that the fight would have ended with dead Zuko and alive Azula, the fire fists were an important part of that fight and not just some isolated event.

Then when zuko submits to his uncle , it makes no sense .

It makes a lot of sense and is consistent with their actual feats and the important context of their fights.

He just faught her evenly twice mind you , and had no hesitation to fight her.

Nope and he had never any hesitation(even as he was ridiculously outmatched), cause that was literally his(mother's) line:

Never give up without a fight.

He could have retreated at the southern raiders fight , but he chose to stay behind . But when his uncle says he can’t hanfle her ( not even knowing how he fights now ) zuko submits ?

Zuko finally learned his lesson(obviously the whole point of his journey and Azula's mirrored experience), which Iroh already teased during his talk with Toph in the chase:

Never give up without a fight, but let people help you.

It doesn’t make sense to me . I think he did it out of respect and also because he knew going alone was not a sure victory , and that’s a risk he could not take .

Rewatch the series and you'll probably understand it, ATLA luckily didn't just fully took the cheap Shonen route(Hero gets an upgrade and is suddenly stronger than the overwhelming, prodigous villain). I also wanted superiority as i was younger, but nowadays i appreciate that they didn't just go the easy route in that case(in complete contrary to deus ex turtle energybending in the other part of the finale, which is still a pretty cool looking scene though).

I am only talking about the azula in the series , not comics ( even though zuko in my opinion has gotten better in the comics , and he managed to beat her in of their fights , but I do say she is a little superior )

Kemurikage Azula is clearly superior again(and was obviously holding back the whole time, well like she even pretty much told us in the end) and Zuko had just beaten insane Crazula in the search, but he indeed clearly improved(and finally learned fire jets). I would say it's like this:

Kemurikage Azula > Eos sane Azula >= Firelord Zuko(N+S) > Eos Zuko > insane Crazula

Azula simply remained stagnant in abilities to me based off feats

That is already incorrect if we just compare B2 and B3 and becomes hilariously incorrect if we include the comics.

and zuko got better to point where he could match her evenly.

Can't agree with evenly.

A slight superiority for azula sure , but I can’t say she wins more than a 6/10 majority , and it’s only my opinion

I probably say at least 7/10.

Gotta love obvious downplaying(even just a freaking zap disarmed and brought Sokka to the ground:

and her instant lightning is notably stronger:

also are Zuko's and Katara's attacks by no means faster so Azula with her "shred" of agility can apparently effortlesly avoid them all following the same logic) he/she didn't even make an analysis about the comics.

As for this fight, Katara is a clear mvp and can handle Azula

You're aware that his spot on analysis also involved this in a former post:

Now I am not downplaying Azula, I think she is actually above Katara by a little bit, but I just feel like Zuko is downplayed.

...

and whilst Bolin vs zuko is very close bending wise, Zukos physicals and his loser morals give him a 6/10 advantage giving him a victory if it's IC as Bolin wont utilise the advantage the environment gives him.

I would probably even give Zuko a bigger edge.

Alternatively, Katara can beat Bolin morals on high dif due to location in a 7/10 and Zuko is a good match for Azula, and should clinch a 4/10 minority from her in extremely good fights.

I'd give Katara 7,5/10(water is a not too bad counter to lava) and Zuko 3/10 at best(the actual feats difference is simply too big).

Morals off Katara is utterly brutal but Bolin has a large environmental advantage and should give her a very good match down there. Maybe 60:40 in Kataras favour.

Uhm i don't know what's so brutal about morals off Katara(all benders are brutal from a can destroy you body standpoint but Katara is actually better by using less brutal and more effective methods instead) but i also don't see why is Bolin suddenly so close?

Azula can beat Zuko, the comet doesn't change the difficulty of the fight or the outcome.

Indeed.

Alternatively, Katara can dance around Azula with ice bridges and slides for the 5 seconds it takes for Zuko to eliminate Bolin.

Whut, dance around Azula? Katara couldn't even dance around exhausted Crazula(and this time would there be no convinient gatter with water below and a chain):

What the freakin hell makes you think she would have suddenly a chance to do that against a significantly better version of Azula?

Team 1 both rounds

Even if we ignore that Katara isn't in her wildest dreams dancing around a now even fresh + sane Comet Azula, what exactly happens in the not alternatively scenario plz?

I find them more impressive overall and that should be enough to edge out Bolins environmental advantage. A very good fight nonetheless.

They are a stronger team due to Bolin being a weak link, but Katara and Bolin have barely any influence on a legit. Comet fight to be frank.

@arcus1:

Katara got the upper hand against Azula in the Catacombs. You can attribute it to Azula underestimating a "peasant" like Katara, but it's not PIS just because one of her attacks wasn't animated as quickly as you'd like or "they could've done....etc."

So plz explain this nonsense logically to me then:

it starts with this madness here(even Sokka would have casually dodged that highly telegraphed and not especially fast attack):

Why was Azula just standing around waiting to get hit by that laughably telegraphed attack?

and then this:

Even that was pretty questionable for a number of reasons, first it was right after that absurd splash(to give Katara enough time to even draw enough water in the first place), second look at how Azula was not attacking and waited pretty much until the last moment(without any good reason) while Katara was almost dancing:

and last but not least Azula just shooting an small ineffective blast at the arm(without any good reason and then she even replicated it with the second arm), Azula did this(instantly vaporizing a much bigger amount of water should be much harder than just to vaporize a small water arm) just minutes beforehand:

And no, Katara's water arms were clearly not somehow especially fireproof:

It happened, fair and square.

Was Jet vs Aang fair and square as well and is the definition of fair and square now to outright ignore jobbing/inconsistencies?

It could happen differently in a rematch, but the fight clearly establishes Katara as being at least a match for Azula

Is Jet an established match for Aang and are we ignoring all consistent feats now?

Also, Azula's insanity was clearly hurting her in the finale fight with Zuko, that's why Zuko was able to be superior. That being said, his fights with her at Boiling Rock and the Western Air Temple were significantly closer than his fights with her in Book 2, to the point that they were almost even

Were they almost even, i don't think so(way closer for sure though) and Azula has still way better feats in several regards(speed/agility, versatility, potency, etc...).

Both these things have been debated so many times, but I guess they're bound to come up again

Highly inconsistent fights and highly debatable fights are bound to be debated for all eternity, especially if people want to use them as argument.

As for this fight

R1: I'm thinking Zuko and Katara for a slim majority

I actually agree.

, Zuko's probably a tad better than Bolin,

More than a tad to be frank, Zuko has simply a pretty notable speed/agility advantage.

and Katara has an edge on Azula.

See and such statements are exactly the reason why that absurd catacombs instance is so highly debated, Katara has no consistent(why the hell are we so often ignore that for the Avatarverse?) edge at all and is consistently notable slower and less agile than Azula outside of that short catacombs encounter(the finale fight on the other hand for example was consistent with Katara's improvement during the three books and contained tons of important context). If i'm misssing something crucial plz logically explain Katara's edge to me without using the catacombs nonsense, cause the standard rule of the vine is to use consistent feats and not to isolate a single inconsistent instance and conviniently ignore the gigantic amount of actual feats speaking against that?

Alternatively, I think Katara would have an edge on Bolin as well and should be able to take him while Zuko holds Azula

See i could easily make a case for Katara's edge over Bolin in complete contrary to over Azula, cause there is an actual consistent edge.

R2: Zuko and Azula are gonna have to fight each other this time, and I think Azula would eventually win, but it'd be a long fight. Assuming the firebenders don't take Katara/Bolin out at the beginning, one of them could turn the tide of Azula vs Zuko. I think Katara would edge out Bolin, but bloodlusted lavabending could catch her off guard. 50/50, maybe

That's fair, although i personally think Katara and Bolin would die during Azula's and Zuko's fight(the catacombs are a rly unfortunate area to be trapped with two comet firebenders and without the Agni Kai scenario are Katara and Bolin pretty easy prey during each possible opening).

Quite a bit Katara wank here, could go either way with a strong edge to team 2 in the second round.

@itachus17:

Gotta love obvious downplaying(even just a freaking zap disarmed and brought Sokka to the ground:

Sokka is fodder to master benders. Next.

and her instant lightning is notably stronger:

Wow disturbed a pond of water so impressive. Toph could bend a hand sized rock into the water and achieve the same effect. It doesn't even conduct in the water how pathetic.

also are Zuko's and Katara's attacks by no means faster so Azula with her "shred" of agility can apparently effortlesly avoid them all following the same logic) he/she didn't even make an analysis about the comics.

Never claimed they were, its a single target horribly weak attack. It's only attribute is that it is fast. Katara will block it effortlessly and Zuko will redirect it.

The second part is laughable Kataras entire arsenal has more scale than instant lightning making her attacks way harder to dodge.

You're aware that his spot on analysis also involved this in a former post:

I wasn't referring to his former post just the one I quoted. Don't bring up posts and comments that I never even mentioned. It's a waste of my time.

I would probably even give Zuko a bigger edge.

Environment heavily favours Bolin.

I'd give Katara 7,5/10(water is a not too bad counter to lava)

See above for why I think Bolin has a better shot.

and Zuko 3/10 at best(the actual feats difference is simply too big).

Zuko is at a physical disadvantage to Azula but bending wise they are almost even. Physicals are secondary to bending prowess.

Uhm i don't know what's so brutal about morals off Katara(all benders are brutal from a can destroy you body standpoint but Katara is actually better by using less brutal and more effective methods instead)

Shell spam power moves that neither of team 2 have the power to match (without the comet that is) and she'll substitute water blasts for water blades and ice bullets that will oneshot.

but i also don't see why is Bolin suddenly so close?

He can dunk lava on them from above.

Whut, dance around Azula? Katara couldn't even dance around exhausted Crazula(and this time would there be no convinient gatter with water below and a chain):

Except she did. Rewatch the fight, she dodges Azula out for a solid 60 seconds. Sanity doesn't give Azula more scale or power or mobility. Furthermore, she has far more water to work with here, the one and only reason she stopped was because she ran out of water as you can see from the gif you so kindly provided, and finally, she doesn't need a grate of water because she doesn't need to beat Azula, simply survive her long enough for Zuko to fodderise Bolin.

Even if we ignore that Katara isn't in her wildest dreams dancing around a now even fresh + sane Comet Azula, what exactly happens in the not alternatively scenario plz?

Azula is not good enough to beat Zuko faster than Katara beats Bolin. She is not good enough to catch Katara faster than Zuko kills Bolin. Then she gets flanked and double teamed.

They are a stronger team due to Bolin being a weak link, but Katara and Bolin have barely any influence on a legit. Comet fight to be frank.

Bolin is a weak link but in this environment hes much stronger than youre suggesting. Based off of nothing other than severe downplaying of Katara, Katara has been shown to possess power able to block comet enhanced charged lightning, the strongest attack in Azulas arsenal. She has been shown to dodge around comet flames with iceboarding. Azulas sanity doesn't do anything to her bending, it's literally the exact same, just now she wont be careless and step over a body of water. Bolin is a non factor because his defence isn't nearly as good as Kataras and neither is his mobility, both of which are absolutely crucial for the non comet enhanced members in round 2.

I second that.

@itachus17:

The first attack was part of a transition scene, they weren't looking to make it a super cool bending move. Sorry they didn't make it as fast as you would have liked, but it's not like the show creators were expecting the fight to be dissected by internet nerds years in the future.

Azula wasn't just "standing around," she was getting back up from the attack Katara just landed on her

As for her blocking the water arms:

• Maybe she underestimated what it would take to block the attack
• Maybe the water arms were coming too fast for her to use a move like earlier
• For the second one, she couldn't do a powerful move like when she vaporized the wave with one arm captured

And in regards to Zuko slicing through the arms: Katara was focused on Azula, not on Zuko attacking from the side. A moment later we see her water arms and Zuko's fire whips blocking each other

In regards to Jet vs Aang, if you account for the context of the fight (Aang looking for a fight with Jet, on top of his usual pacifism) then yeah, it's legit. If you tried to argue that Jet could take down a more experienced Aang who was actually looking to fight him, that would be problematic. There's no such context to Katara vs Azula: it was a straight up fight where Katara got the upper hand

And Aang has a more consistent speed/agility edge on Azula, does that mean Azula shouldn't have been able to get the upper hand on him in their book 2 fights? Katara's not as agile as Azula, sure, but speed wise I don't see why she should be a difference to the point that Katara shouldn't be able to keep up just fine (if that's what you're suggesting?). Waterbending in general isn't as fast-paced as firebending, doesn't mean waterbenders can't match firebenders.

What are all these showings that act against the idea of Katara at least being able to match Azula? Considering their different styles and backgrounds, Katara's not gonna be able to do everything Azula can do, nor could Azula do everything Katara can do, but I don't see any reason to simply dismiss a clear cut fight between Azula and Katara

Azula seems to be the most wanked of the ATLA characters on CV.

No Iroh is by far the most wanked last airbender character as you have also proven in the other thread. After that come likely Toph and Ozai.

@morbusgrav: I don't think you know what wank means if you you think Iroh is the most wanked lmao.

Azula is nowhere near the pedestal you guys place her on.

I think Azula is a bit overrated and Zuko is especially underrated.

I've always been under the impression that Zuko EOS surpassed Azula. Zuko should be able to defeat Azula on an even playing field. But Katara likely won't due to Azula's cunningness. Zuko on the otherhand knows how his sister fights and has picked up some tricks and techniques while searching for and eventually training Aang.

Iroh has terrible feats and questionable hype, Azula has fantastic feats through the board.

=

Iroh would smack Azula.

I know what wank is and that is the epidome of wank, Iroh is nowhere near the pedestal you place him on.

@morbusgrav: I heavily disagree. Azula gets a lot more hype than any firebender before Legend of Korra. Iroh was modest and wanted the next generation to lead. Not his. He was likely much stronger than he let on and both his feats and reputation prove it. He's no Avatar. But he was definitely more skilled than Ozai.

Did you even watch the show?

The only reason why Zuko surpassed Azula was her insanity, that's not even debatable. The comics outright screamed it as a non-serious Azula played around with Zuko after regaining her sanity.

@morbusgrav: Lol yes I watched the show. Nothing you've said changes anything.

Azula's madness is overrated. She may not have been all there. But it's not like she had a hand or two tied behind her back.

It's heavily debatable and has been debated many times in the past. Zuko was inferior to Azula at first but as time went on that gap started to very obviously close.

I disagree, I think Team 2 can take this with Bolin's lavabending and quick earthbending to control mobility, I think Azula can comfortably carry the duo to victory assuming comic feats are in.

Round 2 especially goes to Team 2 because Bolin will be abusing his lavabending even more.

What?

Iroh's feats are terrible and the majority of Azula's hype are in fact her feats, even season 2 Zuko was more skilled than Ozai by feats.

Oh and Bonus Round Azula solos, her attacks will be more accurate therefore taking Katara out of the fight immediately with amped instant lightning, then it comes between Azula and Zuko who are on two different levels when Azula is sane.

@morbusgrav: You've pretty much confirmed what I've said. Is Ozai a bad firebender now just because Iroh and Zuko are more skilled than him?

Iroh having "terrible" feats is also laughable. If it wasn't for characters like Iroh. People could argue that Avatar characters can't time real lighting.

How did you miss Zuko saying he couldn't beat Azula alone before he realized that she was insane?

How is Azula's madness overrated if even Zuko himself mentioned it and the first thing Azula did after regaining her sanity was to show Zuko who the stronger one is?

@morbusgrav: Azula has an abundance of feats... I wonder why? Bcs a premature Gaang couldn't hold a candle to fire lord tier characters lol. She was their adversary bcs they could actually fight her.

Has the best fire bending feat in the show yet is not comparable to his niece who was getting one upped left and right by a not even full fledge team Gaang and got stalemated by Zuko and Katara. Okay...

Pretty much agree with this

@deathhero61:

How do you rank Katara in comparison to Azula and Bolin in comparison to Zuko? Also, it's worth mentioning that Kataras waterbending is insanely versatile; more than enough to match and exceed Bolin's earthbending + lavabending combo IMO.

On top of it, she's been tested against higher level opposition, showing speed that matches Zuko/EoS Azula, and raw power that outdoes his. While I think it's evident by the comics that Azula can make short work of Zuko rn, I still think Katara is even with her, and overall, Zuko is a level ahead of Bolin due to his extreme physicality and raw power that matches Azula's.

@jdogg:

Azula has an abundance of feats... I wonder why? Bcs a premature Gaang couldn't hold a candle to fire lord tier characters lol. She was their adversary bcs they could actually fight her.

What, are you drunk?

If Iroh with his laughable feats is in the fire lord tier you just made up, are eos Zuko and Azula easy peasy Firelord++ tier.

Has the best fire bending feat in the show yet is not comparable to his niece

Are you still talking about Iroh's only really impressive but nigh useless feat, for which he needed Sozin's Comet?

who was getting one upped left and right by a not even full fledge team Gaang

Who would curbstomp Iroh together and struggled a lot with Azula.

and got stalemated by Zuko and Katara. Okay...

What, are you making things up again?

@arcus1:

The first attack was part of a transition scene, they weren't looking to make it a super cool bending move. Sorry they didn't make it as fast as you would have liked, but it's not like the show creators were expecting the fight to be dissected by internet nerds years in the future.

So you are pretty much claiming Katara could outright blitz Azula with a highly telegraped move but the animation was just not good enough to show it? Wow even Ming Hua is apparently a joke against Katara's insane speed, i wonder why she never showed remotely that much speed again in any other situation...

Azula wasn't just "standing around," she was getting back up from the attack Katara just landed on her

I was talking about the splash, which was the first attack Katara landed on her. Azula was explicitly just standing around here:

As for her blocking the water arms:

• Maybe she underestimated what it would take to block the attack

Which would mean she wouldn't make the same mistake again, right?

Maybe the water arms were coming too fast for her to use a move like earlier

How was Katara suddenly so much faster in that part of the catacombs encounter than she was ever before or after again(and why did the animation never showed that)?

For the second one, she couldn't do a powerful move like when she vaporized the wave with one arm captured

And why didn't she just finally attack Katara(something she for whatever reason didn't do the whole fight after the initial attack, which is pretty inconsistent with all her other fights as well) instead?

And in regards to Zuko slicing through the arms: Katara was focused on Azula, not on Zuko attacking from the side

And that magically made her water arms less fireproof???

A moment later we see her water arms and Zuko's fire whips blocking each other

Which would be obviously still well below completely blocking Azula's attacks, especially after the latter instantly vaporized a much bigger amount of water just minutes beforehand.

In regards to Jet vs Aang, if you account for the context of the fight (Aang looking for a fight with Jet, on top of his usual pacifism) then yeah, it's legit. If you tried to argue that Jet could take down a more experienced Aang who was actually looking to fight him, that would be problematic.

So why could Katara take a more experienced Azula, with better feats and who isn't jobbing/or don't underestimating Katara and her water arms then?

There's no such context to Katara vs Azula: it was a straight up fight where Katara got the upper hand

Except that Azula fought like an idiot, massive inconsistencies especially regarding speed throughout the whole encounter and the fact that B3 Azula has also better feats than B2 Azula.

And Aang has a more consistent speed/agility edge on Azula

Plz what? No he obviously hasn't such a consistent speed edge, hell he even outright admited in B3 that a bendingless Azula is too quick(literal quote from Aang himself):

I can't beat her down, she's too quick!

Aang can at best run faster with the help of his airbending, but the travel don't equals combat speed debate is long over on the vine and good enough reactions is all Azula needs(and consistently has). And Azula's agility advantage over Katara is at minimum as big as Aang's over her.

does that mean Azula shouldn't have been able to get the upper hand on him in their book 2 fights?

If Azula consistently matched Aang's speed in several encounters, outspeeded Zuko like Aang did and showed in general pretty much always high speed and agility how the hell has Aang a consistent speed edge let alone more consistent than Azula's over Katara(who had outside of the catacombs encounter with Azula not a single comparable speed feat)?

What is that for an insane double standard here?

Katara's not as agile as Azula, sure, but speed wise I don't see why she should be a difference to the point that Katara shouldn't be able to keep up just fine (if that's what you're suggesting?). Waterbending in general isn't as fast-paced as firebending, doesn't mean waterbenders can't match firebenders.

Cause she has no consistent speed feats on that lvl, this has nothting to do with fire-and waterbenders(Ming is extremely fast for example but also consistently faster than Katara) in general.

What are all these showings that act against the idea of Katara at least being able to match Azula?

I never said Azula can't match Azula to a degree, this here was my initial post:

It goes imo:

Azula >= Katara > Zuko > Bolin

I see sane Eos Azula and Katara as pretty close due to Katara's showings in general. But there are quite few showings against an edge for Katara and a whole lot against the absurd idea Katara could outright blitz Azula like in the apparently badly animated catacombs encounter.

Considering their different styles and backgrounds, Katara's not gonna be able to do everything Azula can do, nor could Azula do everything Katara can do, but I don't see any reason to simply dismiss a clear cut fight between Azula and Katara

I wouldn't dismiss a clear cut fight but i sure as hell dismiss a fight where a consistently slower + less agile fighter outright blitzes a consistently faster + more agile fighter(that's some Flash style jobbing right there), especially if the latter in general underperformed to a huge degree.

But are you telling me there isn't a single argument for an edge to Katara outside of the catacombs encounter in B2 and you aren't realizing the obvious problem then?

@mee09:

People could argue that Avatar characters can't time real lighting.

Bruh...

Everyone from the Gaang and Azula are equals, I simply think in the right circumstances, Azula could take out almost any of the gang immediately in 1v1s. I think Instant Lightning cucks Katara and Toph for example unless they either A)Have knowledge of it or B)counter before she releases it. Bolin is pretty underrated, but he is still below The Gaang, his lavabending is what carries him up there asides from that he wouldn't stand a chance in hell otherwise. I think Azula is above Katara because of her comic feats, especially with how easily she clowned Zuko. Katara is above Bolin but I think as crazy as it might sound Bolin is in her ballpark, mostly because of pro-bending firing rates and lavabending.(otherwise Katara has him beat in most categories including durability and most likely defense considering her bouts with Toph) so Bolin can stall her out while Azula beats Zuko.

As for Katara vs Bolin, Katara is scary, no doubt about it, but with no knowledge, Lavabending would be really hard to deal with morals off. Mobility would be severely nerfed in the face of lavabenders, and even with her versatility, I don't think she's getting past Bolin's walls easily. The fact that Bolin could probably help out with defense AND slow down Katara and Zuko makes it easier for Team 2 to win.

Bolin vs Zuko is the easiest matchup for bolin because Zuko is a more grounded fighter. Environmental attacks are his friend and lavabending especially helps with that. Zuko is his equal if not superior in fire rate so that makes things dangerous, but like I said with Katara, Bolin can stall.

@deathhero61: Interesting, I'll get back on this.

@morbusgrav: Are you?

Fire lord tier is basically EoS villain tier. EoS villain are the EoS villains bcs they can be only be beaten by the EoS hero. That's where Iroh and Ozai sit at bcs no teenager besides AS Aang could've beaten them.

You keep calling it nigh featless when it's the strongest fire bending attack lol. Guess what smart one? If he is that strong under Sozin then that mean his base is also very powerful. Sozin Comet gives an equal boost to all firebenders so him having the best fire bending feat even under Sozin Comet will still place him as one the best firebender without it as no other firebender has shown that strong of an attack even under Sozin's Comet.

Except they never really fought her together besides the time they were dead tired. And noobish Gaang even altogether couldn't beat Iroh.

Catacombs, final fights,and on top of the air craft. All those fights they were dead even with her. Her bending prowess itself was only above them when they were noobs.

Krillin solos....

Oh god the Iroh fanboys are arrived, EoS villain tier and the whole Gaang alltogether couldn't beat him(lmao) my ass. This here is rly all that's needed to say about the overhyped uncle(love him as character but he is pretty damn unimpressive in terms of combat and that feat here is way better than his two feats of blindsiding Azula, which are literally his best combat feats XD):

@itachus17:

Maybe Katara had landed at attack before that one. Maybe the animators just wanted to show Katara landing a hit in the transition scene and weren't thinking about people trying to debate it years in the future. Maybe it just doesn't matter

What speed feats does Azula have that put her so far above Katara? Actually, more importantly, what showings indicate that Katara should be slow? To be inconsistent, you'd need something to indicate that Katara should be too slow to keep up with Azula that well. When has Katara failed to be fast enough to suggest she could match Azula?

And who's arguing for Katara blitzing Azula? The Catacombs fight wasn't a blitz, and even then, I don't see anyone saying that Azula and Katara aren't comparable.

As for arguments for Katara edging out Azula, what evidence could be better than a straight up fight between the two characters-the only even fight between them in the show? Katara's a master based on Pakku's praise, beating Hama, beating Zuko, etc. Even you seem to be agreeing that Azula and Katara are on the same tier at least, so I'm not entirely sure what the problem is?