@kingguinness: it makes sense for the progression of the story. Oda hasn’t seemed to give Sanji any decent showings at all after the time skip. Sanji is a master cook, it’s not the end of the world if a crew member were stronger then him.
No it doesn't. What sense does it make for Sanji, who's been the third strongest member of the Straw Hat crew for the entire series so far to get suddenly overshadowed by someone like Jinbe? Who's been relevant for like what, 3 arc's?
The only reason people are downplaying Sanji is because he hasn't had any recent feats, but that doesn't mean he's no longer the 3rd strongest member of the crew. He just hasn't got his shine yet.
@kingguinness: because the Stawhats need to grow and get stronger. Jinbei joining the crew was to give the Stawhats more fire power.. you really believe Sanji is stronger then Jinbei, who was a former war lord? I figured Jinbei being stronger then Sanji was clearly obvious, which it is.
No it doesn't. What sense does it make for Sanji, who's been the third strongest member of the Straw Hat crew for the entire series so far to get suddenly overshadowed by someone like Jinbe? Who's been relevant for like what, 3 arc's?
The only reason people are downplaying Sanji is because he hasn't had any recent feats, but that doesn't mean he's no longer the 3rd strongest member of the crew. He just hasn't got his shine yet.
2016 was the year of Sanji and Oda took multiple shits on him. 2017 wasn't much better and he threw us a bone with the Katakuri jelly bean dodge, this year though things were looking up with the Oven blitzing however next chapter it looks like Sanji has a clear path to the Sunny and we won't get any more chances to see him 'shine.' That will likely be it too since the Reverie is next followed by Wano aka Zoro's wank arc.
However I'm willing to wait until WCI ends completely since you never know.
And that somehow means Sanji's no longer the third strongest crew member? It's unfair to judge Sanji simply because of the fact that we haven't even seen all he can do yet Post-Timeskip. Luffy, Zoro and Sanji have been the 3 strongest crew members for past 898 chapters and it makes absolutely no sense for someone this late in the game to come in and upset that balance. I have no doubt Jinbe's going to join the crew but there's no way he's taking Sanji's place as the third strongest once he does.
WCI has been excellent for Sanji's character and just because he's not running around blowing up mountains doesn't mean Oda's been shitting on him. Not every arc has to be centred around improving a characters combat ability and Sanji has the remainder of One Piece to show his stuff. Doesn't have to be this arc, but at some point we will see Sanji show off some epic shit. I personally believe by EOS he's going to beat Kizaru so he definitely has to improve for that to be the case.
No it doesn't. What sense does it make for Sanji, who's been the third strongest member of the Straw Hat crew for the entire series so far to get suddenly overshadowed by someone like Jinbe? Who's been relevant for like what, 3 arc's?
The only reason people are downplaying Sanji is because he hasn't had any recent feats, but that doesn't mean he's no longer the 3rd strongest member of the crew. He just hasn't got his shine yet.
People downplay him because Vergo almost broke the bone in his leg in punk hazard. Doflamingo also fodderized him about as easily as he did Smoker.
@kingguinness: uhh yes it does.. You seem to think that if Sanji wasn’t the 3rd strongest then he would lose his importance to the crew which isn’t true at all. Unlike Luffy and Zoro, Sanji has a talent besides just fighting.. Jinbei on the other hand was a Warlord, Captain, etc. He also has showings against powerful opponents that easily puts him above Sanji.
WCI has been excellent for Sanji's character and just because he's not running around blowing up mountains doesn't mean Oda's been shitting on him. Not every arc has to be centred around improving a characters combat ability and Sanji has the remainder of One Piece to show his stuff. Doesn't have to be this arc, but at some point we will see Sanji show off some epic shit. I personally believe by EOS he's going to beat Kizaru so he definitely has to improve for that to be the case.
The fandom have called 2016 the 'Year of Sanji taking Ls' for a reason and hardly any of it had to do with combat situations because his feats in that regard just aren't there.
However you do have a point and we shall see...just not any time soon so Sanji stays in the kitchen.
Also:
we haven't even seen all he can do yet Post-Timeskip.
How do you know this? He would have needed to go all out to stop Doflamingo from turning Chopper, Nami and co into pin cushions.
All Vergo did was fracture his shin, whereas Sanji blitzed him and landed two solid hits to the chin. Cracking a shin isn't indicative of the outcome of a fight (In this case) especially considering the fact that Pre-Timeskip Sanji could fight through broken ribs, severe concussions, island shaking attacks, etc.. Sanji's endurance is way too high for him to be counted out of a fight simply because of a fracture bone.
He doesn't lose any importance but it disrupts the power dynamic that's been running the crew for 898 chapters. What's the point in adding a character that's stronger than Sanji this late into the game? How would you feel if someone suddenly joined the crew and took over Zoro's spot as the second strongest member? It just doesn't sit well with me IMO.
Then they're just flat out wrong. What's been bad for Sanji's character throughout WCI? We got his full backstory, his interaction with his siblings and his father, his interaction with Luffy, etc.. People heard the statement "Year Of Sanji" and immediately got hyped because they thought Sanji was going to be doing some crazy combat related shit when that wasn't the case. But in any case I'm kind of derailing the thread and it's best if we just stay on topic.
Then they're just flat out wrong. What's been bad for Sanji's character throughout WCI? We got his full backstory, his interaction with his siblings and his father, his interaction with Luffy, etc.. People heard the statement "Year Of Sanji" and immediately got hyped because they thought Sanji was going to be doing some crazy combat related shit when that wasn't the case. But in any case I'm kind of derailing the thread and it's best if we just stay on topic.
They're not saying it's been bad for the character, they're saying we've been feeling sorry for him with the backstory and turns Oda has put there so though we've got more depth to him, at the end of the day it's Shonen and people will want dem feats + there's no justification for him staying in the M3 besides he 'was always in the M3'
On topic we both agree so I've got nothing more to say.
All Vergo did was fracture his shin, whereas Sanji blitzed him and landed two solid hits to the chin. Cracking a shin isn't indicative of the outcome of a fight (In this case) especially considering the fact that Pre-Timeskip Sanji could fight through broken ribs, severe concussions, island shaking attacks, etc.. Sanji's endurance is way too high for him to be counted out of a fight simply because of a fracture bone.
I never said Sanji would lose to Vergo. But at the same time, it didn't exactly look like he was going to win very convincingly either. Vergo didn't even use armament haki for Christ's sake. He clearly didn't even go all out. it looked like a pretty causal kick.
Its a legit knock against Sanji considering that: A.) He only fights using his legs and B.) His leg was cracked by a pretty weak character relatively speaking.
I guess but he was a good matchup for ace with water based techniques going against fire.Some of the other things I've seen him do like blocking akainu and Big mom are pretty impressive so maybe he does win.
@enemybird: I hope that Yonko Commander you’re talking about isn’t Ace.
That's fire fist Ace to you. and yes, Ace is a Yonko commander is he not? If that doesn't impress you. Jinbei no sold a jet stamp from G2 Luffy post timeskip ( i doubt Zoro could do that.) He blocked an attack from Sakazuki point blank barehanded. ( also doubt zoro could do that.) He rocked Big "skinny" mom with his ultimate attack. Zoro's claim to fame seems to be beating pica. Well...I am pretty sure Jinbei nearlyone shot Wadatsumi who grew even larger than he appears near the Sunny.
jinbei should be considered the favorite but zoro most likely has the 'gear 4' trump card we haven't seen yet and will crash him once he does but for now i say jinbei
@enemybird: No, my question wasn’t rhetorical, nice job assuming. I asked you to defend and back up that statement and you ignored it and posted irrelevant Jinbei feats that aren’t better than Zoro’s.
@enemybird: No, my question wasn’t rhetorical, nice job assuming. I asked you to defend and back up that statement and you ignored it and posted irrelevant Jinbei feats that aren’t better than Zoro’s.
Zoro wins.
*Looks at your previous posts* Ummm where exactly did you ask me to defend and or back up my statement?
I don't understand how you think Zoro wins. You haven't even taken a stab at explaining that. By continuing to say "Zoro wins" isn't an argument. Fighting Ace for five days is a feat of endurance that Zoro simply doesn't have. You combine that endurance with his defensive feats that I named and well... Jinbei Wins.
Literally everybody who said Zoro wins failed to give a single reason why.
Okay, I'll break that trend. Zoro bas better DC than Jinbe, and is mountain busting at the very least as what was shown with Pica. He is also at least MHS as he was able to blitz Kuma, the same person who was able to contend with the MHS Gear Second Luffy. Zoro's durability is island level when it comes to blunt force, evident by how he tanked having Luffy's pain being transferred to him, and Luffy had tanked island busting attacks up until that point.
@enemybird: Probably because most of them are expecting Zoro to have some tricks and techniques he hasn't shown so far which is quite likely since he didn't have an opponent tough enough. From what we've seen so far, I agree with you that Jinbei got this.
Literally everybody who said Zoro wins failed to give a single reason why.
Okay, I'll break that trend. Zoro bas better DC than Jinbe, and is mountain busting at the very least as what was shown with Pica. He is also at least MHS as he was able to blitz Kuma, the same person who was able to contend with the MHS Gear Second Luffy. Zoro's durability is island level when it comes to blunt force, evident by how he tanked having Luffy's pain being transferred to him, and Luffy had tanked island busting attacks up until that point.
I would argue that Jinbei is also mountain level due to his fight with Wadasumi. This attack travel through his entire body and out the other side.
I hate to use the downplay card but Zoro cannot blitz Kuma while Kuma is actually paying attention to him. When he landed his attack Kuma thought Zoro was down.
As far as durability. Fighting with a yonko commander for five days is a better feat than taking on a rubber man's pain and fatigue in a fight where he was immune to most of his opponents attacks. Zoro is durable dont get me wrong but Jinbei has an edge. Zoro hasn't fought anyone on Ace's level yet.
Jinbei has blocked attacks from people much more powerful than Zoro. Gear 2 Luffy post timeskip for an example. Jinbei no sold that. Its arguable that Zoro can even hit that hard and Jinbei ate it for lunch.
Literally everybody who said Zoro wins failed to give a single reason why.
Okay, I'll break that trend. Zoro bas better DC than Jinbe, and is mountain busting at the very least as what was shown with Pica. He is also at least MHS as he was able to blitz Kuma, the same person who was able to contend with the MHS Gear Second Luffy. Zoro's durability is island level when it comes to blunt force, evident by how he tanked having Luffy's pain being transferred to him, and Luffy had tanked island busting attacks up until that point.
I would argue that Jinbei is also mountain level due to his fight with Wadasumi. This attack travel through his entire body and out the other side.
Watsumi's body isn't as dense as a mountain. Also, all Jinbe did was deflate him. It wasn't like he completely destroyed Watsumi's body like Zoro did with Pica.
I hate to use the downplay card but Zoro cannot blitz Kuma while Kuma is actually paying attention to him. When he landed his attack Kuma thought Zoro was down.
Touche. However the fact that Zoro was able to blitz Kuma at all puts him in the MHS range of combat speed as someone of Usopp or Franky's speed tier wouldn't be capable of doing this. And this was pre time skip Zoro. Post Timeskip Zoro undoubtedly got faster from this point on via training with Mihawk, so off of scaling, I'd put Jinbe and Zoro at the same speed.
As far as durability. Fighting with a yonko commander for five days is a better feat than taking on a rubber man's pain and fatigue in a fight where he was immune to most of his opponents attacks. Zoro is durable dont get me wrong but Jinbei has an edge. Zoro hasn't fought anyone on Ace's level yet.
Ace wan't a yonko commander at that point and was inexperienced with his devil fruit. And Luffy was clearly taking pain from those island level attacks. In addition, Luffy isn't completely immune to blunt attacks as he was hurt y Franky's strong right, which isn't anywhere close to island level.
Jinbei has blocked attacks from people much more powerful than Zoro. Gear 2 Luffy post timeskip for an example. Jinbei no sold that. Its arguable that Zoro can even hit that hard and Jinbei ate it for lunch.
Zoro is mountain level. Gear Second Luffy isn't. Simple as that.
Did you really expect Jinbei to completely destroy Wadasumi's body? This is one piece after all. Its rare something like that would happen. Pica was definitely larger and thus technically a more impressive feat but I was simply pointing out that Jinbei is also mountain level considering the scale of the attack.
Zoro isn't blitzing anyone here. If Jinbei can react to G2 Luffy Zoro isnt surprising him.
You're right about Ace not being a Yonko commander at that point. But he surely wasnt inexperienced. He had already gotten an offer to become a warlord which he turned down. If im not mistaken his bounty was already at 550,000,000. Not saying that has anything to do with strength but he wasn't inexperienced. He also made it into the new world and lasted a while before working under a Yonko. I could also say the same thing about Jinbei not being as strong as he currently is now.
Isnt sakazuki mountain level? Is every attack Zoro / Jinbei initiate going to be mountain level? No.
@enemybird: No, my question wasn’t rhetorical, nice job assuming. I asked you to defend and back up that statement and you ignored it and posted irrelevant Jinbei feats that aren’t better than Zoro’s.
Zoro wins.
*Looks at your previous posts* Ummm where exactly did you ask me to defend and or back up my statement?
I don't understand how you think Zoro wins. You haven't even taken a stab at explaining that. By continuing to say "Zoro wins" isn't an argument. Fighting Ace for five days is a feat of endurance that Zoro simply doesn't have. You combine that endurance with his defensive feats that I named and well... Jinbei Wins.
Looks like you have trouble reading then. To make it easier, I'll ask you again, how is fighting Ace for five days better than anything Zoro has done?
Sure, Jinbei could out last him in a battle of endurance, but there's more to a fight than endurance. So I fail to see how fighting someone who's feats pale in comparison to Zoro is better than anything Zoro has done.
Did you really expect Jinbei to completely destroy Wadasumi's body? This is one piece after all.
That still doesn't change the fact that Jinbe wasn't able to destroy Wadasumi's body like Zoro did Pica's
I doubt something like that would happen. Pica was definitely larger and thus technically a more impressive feat but I was simply pointing out that Jinbei is also mountain level considering the scale of the attack.
Jinbe is close to mountain level, but not exactly at mountain level considering that Jinbe's attack had the advantage over Wadatsumi because Fishman Karate attacks one's internal organs and Wadatsumi had inflated himself, so all Jinbe did was delfate him by attacking his internal organs, not so much because of the DC.
Zoro isn't blitzing anyone here. If Jinbei can react to g2 Luffy Zoro isnt surprising him.
Touche. However Jinbe has a very slow combat speed so it evens out.
You're right about Ace not being a Yonko commander at that point. But he surely wasnt inexperienced. He had already gotten an offer to become a warlord which he turned down. If im not mistaken his bounty was already at 550,000,000. Not saying that has anything to do with strength but he wasn't inexperienced.
I am saying he was inexperienced with his devil fruit. He had only just gotten it recently at the time of the fight with Jinbe.
Isnt sakazuki mountain level?
Through scaling he is, but the attack he used on Jinbe wasn't mountain level.
Did you really expect Jinbei to completely destroy Wadasumi's body? This is one piece after all.
That still doesn't change the fact that Jinbe wasn't able to destroy Wadasumi's body like Zoro did Pica's
I doubt something like that would happen. Pica was definitely larger and thus technically a more impressive feat but I was simply pointing out that Jinbei is also mountain level considering the scale of the attack.
Jinbe is close to mountain level, but not exactly at mountain level considering that Jinbe's attack had the advantage over Wadatsumi because Fishman Karate attacks one's internal organs and Wadatsumi had inflated himself, so all Jinbe did was delfate him by attacking his internal organs, not so much because of the DC.
Zoro isn't blitzing anyone here. If Jinbei can react to g2 Luffy Zoro isnt surprising him.
Touche. However Jinbe has a very slow combat speed so it evens out.
You're right about Ace not being a Yonko commander at that point. But he surely wasnt inexperienced. He had already gotten an offer to become a warlord which he turned down. If im not mistaken his bounty was already at 550,000,000. Not saying that has anything to do with strength but he wasn't inexperienced.
I am saying he was inexperienced with his devil fruit. He had only just gotten it recently at the time of the fight with Jinbe.
Isnt sakazuki mountain level?
Through scaling he is, but the attack he used on Jinbe wasn't mountain level.
What happen if Jinbei used that attack on Pica's waist instead of Wadasumi's? Granted, you have to use speculation considering Jinbei punched flesh and not rock. characters weaker than Jinbei like Don Chinjao ( who struggled with g2 luffy) were able to destroy large parts of Pica. You could argue that the area they ( Zoro and Jinbei) attacked were very similar in diameter. Pica is larger overall no question but the scale of the attack is very similar. Its not an apples to apples comparison all things considered. Its a fist vs a sword. You shouldn't expect it to cause Wadasumi to explode on impact. example...Kuma used a usrusu shock an attack that destroyed a LOTof ROCK on thriller bark. It was a near island level attack that hit oars jr directly...No explosion but a near KO... Like I said people's bodies dont explode.
Jinbei also managed to stagger Big Mom with that punch. What do you think would happen if it lands on a much weaker character like Zoro. It'll probably drop his ass.
Jinbei is fast enough to react to Zoro so a large number of his attacks are going to get blocked by Haki and no sold.
He didn't look that inexperienced to me. We didn't see the extend of him using the devil fruit anyway so we cant really say how good he was or wasn't with it. I am saying its impressive to fight someone on Ace's level(New world pirate captain & future yonko commander for five days straight without stopping.) Jinbei is likely even stronger now than he was back then. Has is Zoro has even reached the level Ace was on when he fought Jinbei back then? Its hard to say he has.
Did you really expect Jinbei to completely destroy Wadasumi's body? This is one piece after all.
That still doesn't change the fact that Jinbe wasn't able to destroy Wadasumi's body like Zoro did Pica's
I doubt something like that would happen. Pica was definitely larger and thus technically a more impressive feat but I was simply pointing out that Jinbei is also mountain level considering the scale of the attack.
Jinbe is close to mountain level, but not exactly at mountain level considering that Jinbe's attack had the advantage over Wadatsumi because Fishman Karate attacks one's internal organs and Wadatsumi had inflated himself, so all Jinbe did was delfate him by attacking his internal organs, not so much because of the DC.
Zoro isn't blitzing anyone here. If Jinbei can react to g2 Luffy Zoro isnt surprising him.
Touche. However Jinbe has a very slow combat speed so it evens out.
You're right about Ace not being a Yonko commander at that point. But he surely wasnt inexperienced. He had already gotten an offer to become a warlord which he turned down. If im not mistaken his bounty was already at 550,000,000. Not saying that has anything to do with strength but he wasn't inexperienced.
I am saying he was inexperienced with his devil fruit. He had only just gotten it recently at the time of the fight with Jinbe.
Isnt sakazuki mountain level?
Through scaling he is, but the attack he used on Jinbe wasn't mountain level.
What happen if Jinbei used that attack on Pica's waist instead of Wadasumi's? Granted, you have to use speculation considering Jinbei punched flesh and not rock.
You answered your own question. They are two completely different scenarios.
characters weaker than Jinbei like Don Chinjao ( who struggled with g2 luffy)
He only struggled with Gear Second Luffy because of the speed advantage Luffy had. I would argue that Chinajo was much more DC than Jinbe.
You could argue that the area they ( Zoro and Jinbei) attacked were very similar in diameter.
Not at all. Pica was significantly taller, dwarfing the island of Dressrosa in size.
Pica is larger overall no question but the scale of the attack is very similar.
Not really.
Its a fist vs a sword. You shouldn't expect it to cause Wadasumi to explode on impact.
Touche. However, Fishman Karate was directly catered towards deflating people's bodies, so Jinbe had the advantage there.
Jinbei also managed to stagger Big Mom with that punch. What do you think would happen if it lands on a much weaker character like Zoro. It'll probably drop his ass.
That was a weakened Big Mom and all it did was knock her back a few feet.
Jinbei is fast enough to react to Zoro so a large number of his attacks are going to get blocked by Haki and no sold.
His Haki isn't as strong as Zoro's. It just isn't. Zoro's haki is mountain level. Jinbe is barely blocking attacks from a weakened Big Mom.
He didn't look that inexperienced to me. We didn't see the extend of him using the devil fruit anyway so we cant really say how good he was or wasn't with it. I am saying its impressive to fight someone on Ace's level(New world pirate captain & future yonko commander for five days straight without stopping.)
At the point Jinbe fought Ace, he wasn't yonko commander level.
Chinjao never struggled with G2 Luffy, in the manga, Luffy was in base form the majority of the fight and he finished the Don off with a CoA G3 attack.
You two should establish if you're using anime only or manga feats, if you're using both as is the norm: make sure there's no contradictions in depictions for fights you're pulling feats from. If there is just use the manga version.
Wadasumi is enormous. As with a lot of characters, there are some inconsistencies in the way Oda draws them but it is certainly reasonable that he is as wide as pica's waist while puffed up. Jinbei's attack travelling though someone that large makes him mountain level or at the least very close to it. Example When Law cut through the mountain on punk hazard, he didn't completely destroy it. His attack traveled far enough though it to be considered mountain level. Its the same logic with jinbei.
The ursus shock is a perfect example of what happens when you use the same attack on flesh vs rock. Rock was destroyed while flesh remains intact. Rock is destroyed more easily, I think that's plain to see. example Donchinjao who is clearly weaker than Jinbei ( struggling with base Luffy) destroyed Pica's arm with some help from a light king punch. I am confident that if Jinbei used the same attack on pica's waist he could potentially destroy it. Again considering that A.) rock is easier to destroy and B.) Wadasumi's puffed diameter is similar in size to pica's waist.
A weaken big mom is still many...many times stronger than Zoro could ever hope to be at this point. If she was anywhere near as weak as Zoro, the strawhats would not need to run from her. Jinbei blocked an attack from her. He wont have problems with Zoro trust me.
I am seriously wondering if you even read my comment about the Ace vs jinbei fight.
Look, you barely responded to anything I said. You cherry picked your responses and ignored major points in my last post. If you think Zoro can get through Jinbei's defense when a G2 luffy couldn't you're implying that Zoro is stronger than G2 Luffy which I seriously doubt. If anything, Zoro is close or equal to G2/G3 Luffy in power and speed at best. Jinbei has shown to not have any problems dealing with an attack from G2 Luffy. He also blocked an attack from Sakazuki and Big Mom and you think he is going to have a problem with Zoro of all people. Thats funny.
I think Zoro will surpass Jinbei at some point very soon. Right now, he simply doesn't have the feats for the win.
Jinbei has the defensive feats to beat Zoro: These are against some of the most powerful beings in the show. Not a moving mountain of stone that was broken by the fodder that are the coliseum fighters.
No selling g2 Luffy's stamp
Blocking a magma imbued punch from Sakazuki barehanded.
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