Zoro vs EMS Madara

@requiemcross said:

@almightyamortal said:

@shirso said:

Zoro doesn't need his latest feat to fodderize this Madara. Inb4 "b-but Madara's PS sliced some mountain tops !!!!"

I've seen the "Mountain tops"

And considering that they are barely 4 times the height of Kurama, who is not very large to begin with, I don't see why its seen as so impressive considering what we've seen form Zoro and Law

While I am not yet saying Zoro could beat Madara, MAdara needs better than the Mountain top 'feat', for a conclusive win.

One of the most impressive feat of EMS Uchiha Madara is surviving the detonation of at least 11 Bijuu dama enhanced by his Susanoo blade and Hashirama's Sage Art Wood Release True Several Thousand Hands. Source: Naruto chapter 626.

You missed the point. Durability was never brought up by me. Disregarding the TBB attached to his attacks in the scan above (and similar enhancements), Madara's greatest sword attacks were when he, using a Susanoo covered Kurama destroyed 4-5 mountain tops (generous considering they were only 3-4 times larger than Kurama) and the other would be his full susanoo, when he swung his sword and again took of the tops of mountains, (two IIRC).

BM and Kaido launched a combo attack that levelled a good portion of the mountain range (not just the tip on the top of 'mountains'). Zoro managed alter the attacks trajectory, deflecting it to save himself and his allies, he then was nimble enough to later attack BM's Homie at the end of the same chapter and according to spoilers it would take the "Raimei Hakke", which KOed G4 Luffy, to finally take down Zoro.

That tells me that Madara's sword things aren't much of a threat, in comparison. He would have to use his wide array of ninjutsu to win.

I love Zoro but he gets his sh*t kicked in.

Zoro

The One Piece wank has been ridiculous ever since we hit Wano. Zoro dies.

Madara is well above a Yonko. Big Mom and Kaido are looking worst and worst loool. So where using a no limit fallacy on Kaido's durability? Lol stop the most impressive thing he's tanked was a G4 Kong Barrage. EMS Madara attack potency and his destructive capabilities shit on Luffy there is no comparison. Haki does not give them a bypass on genjutsu stop the nonsense.

@almightyamortal said:

@requiemcross said:

@almightyamortal said:

@shirso said:

Zoro doesn't need his latest feat to fodderize this Madara. Inb4 "b-but Madara's PS sliced some mountain tops !!!!"

I've seen the "Mountain tops"

And considering that they are barely 4 times the height of Kurama, who is not very large to begin with, I don't see why its seen as so impressive considering what we've seen form Zoro and Law

While I am not yet saying Zoro could beat Madara, MAdara needs better than the Mountain top 'feat', for a conclusive win.

One of the most impressive feat of EMS Uchiha Madara is surviving the detonation of at least 11 Bijuu dama enhanced by his Susanoo blade and Hashirama's Sage Art Wood Release True Several Thousand Hands. Source: Naruto chapter 626.

You missed the point. Durability was never brought up by me. Disregarding the TBB attached to his attacks in the scan above (and similar enhancements), Madara's greatest sword attacks were when he, using a Susanoo covered Kurama destroyed 4-5 mountain tops (generous considering they were only 3-4 times larger than Kurama) and the other would be his full susanoo, when he swung his sword and again took of the tops of mountains, (two IIRC).

BM and Kaido launched a combo attack that levelled a good portion of the mountain range (not just the tip on the top of 'mountains'). Zoro managed alter the attacks trajectory, deflecting it to save himself and his allies, he then was nimble enough to later attack BM's Homie at the end of the same chapter and according to spoilers it would take the "Raimei Hakke", which KOed G4 Luffy, to finally take down Zoro.

That tells me that Madara's sword things aren't much of a threat, in comparison. He would have to use his wide array of ninjutsu to win.

1- You do realize that's just the shockwave of his attack right? The shockwave of him swinging his sword can level mountains miles away. The actual attack potency of the sword it's self would vaporize zoro. Big Mom and Kaido level Mountain ranges? Bro the mountains surrounding Onigashima are under the Skull not at the top of the skull.

2- One bijuu Susanoo blade ends Zoro

Madara swings his susanno blade and Zoro dies.

Madara Genjutsu GG

Zoro can deal some damage but he can't take that same damage back.

Madara Genjustu or hits first.

Does Madara use genjutsu in combat ? I never saw him do that

@light123:

Gallery

Haki does infact give them a bypass on genjutsu. Otherwise you are implying genjutsu would work on anyone who doesn't know how to operate chakra which would include all powerful telepaths across universes such as Xavier.

We all know.. Xavier would shit stomp on Madara's genjutsu. This proves that in-verse methods of counter mind-attacks are another way of counter genjutsu. Therefore if haki nulls the effects of external forces affecting their bodies (like Law's ability not work on on them) then it would do the same to mental attacks.

As for Durability (since you brought it up). You also have to consider their strongest attack as well as strongest thing they tanked. Kaido tanked a G4 Kong Barrage, yes and took no damage from it, which is more impressive than anything Madara tanked in his run.

Furthermore...!

That is the size of Kaido and Big Mom's combined attack. It is as big as an island. The size alone would obliterate any island, putting this attack in the country++ range just because Oda didn't illustrate it landing somewhere.

Madara ain't survive a direct hit from that. Wank all you want, he isn't surviving it.

Yes, strong haki counters law's ability from working on them. He outright confirmed it.

Law's ability also includes the power to swap people's minds and bodies. He did it to the strawhat crew in Punk Hazard. So if that isn't a powerful mind hax, I don't know what is. lol

@supremekilla010 said:

@almightyamortal said:

@requiemcross said:

@almightyamortal said:

@shirso said:

Zoro doesn't need his latest feat to fodderize this Madara. Inb4 "b-but Madara's PS sliced some mountain tops !!!!"

I've seen the "Mountain tops"

And considering that they are barely 4 times the height of Kurama, who is not very large to begin with, I don't see why its seen as so impressive considering what we've seen form Zoro and Law

While I am not yet saying Zoro could beat Madara, MAdara needs better than the Mountain top 'feat', for a conclusive win.

One of the most impressive feat of EMS Uchiha Madara is surviving the detonation of at least 11 Bijuu dama enhanced by his Susanoo blade and Hashirama's Sage Art Wood Release True Several Thousand Hands. Source: Naruto chapter 626.

You missed the point. Durability was never brought up by me. Disregarding the TBB attached to his attacks in the scan above (and similar enhancements), Madara's greatest sword attacks were when he, using a Susanoo covered Kurama destroyed 4-5 mountain tops (generous considering they were only 3-4 times larger than Kurama) and the other would be his full susanoo, when he swung his sword and again took of the tops of mountains, (two IIRC).

BM and Kaido launched a combo attack that levelled a good portion of the mountain range (not just the tip on the top of 'mountains'). Zoro managed alter the attacks trajectory, deflecting it to save himself and his allies, he then was nimble enough to later attack BM's Homie at the end of the same chapter and according to spoilers it would take the "Raimei Hakke", which KOed G4 Luffy, to finally take down Zoro.

That tells me that Madara's sword things aren't much of a threat, in comparison. He would have to use his wide array of ninjutsu to win.

1- You do realize that's just the shockwave of his attack right? The shockwave of him swinging his sword can level mountains miles away. The actual attack potency of the sword it's self would vaporize zoro. Big Mom and Kaido level Mountain ranges? Bro the mountains surrounding Onigashima are under the Skull not at the top of the skull.

2- One bijuu Susanoo blade ends Zoro

• What are you referencing right now? the scan I linked showed Susanoo covered kurama surrounded by 'mountains' that can no way be defines as "miles away". scans or chapter number please.
  • Prove your point about Zoro.
  • Scans for Onigashima layout? -> Cause the only way I see the scan making sense is if Zoro managed to change the trajectory of the attack, upwards, to save himself ands allies, if the shockwave of the combo attack travelled down, or even just stayed level would mean some of the protags should be in considerably worse shape than they are, mainly Law, Kidd and Killer who have fewer reliable durability feats the the main crew.
• Actually read my post - it included this little snippet right here - disregarding the TBB attached to his attacks in the scan above (and similar enhancements....) -
  • Why are you bringing up Bijuu amped susanoo blade, as I haven't seen given in OP as one of Madara's options in this fight i.e., what is relevance of any of Madara's TBB attacks right now? The statement was simple. Without the aid of a tbb to reinforce the power behind the his sword strikes Madara's sword is not impressive in comparison to Yonko.
    • So is the what purpose of bringing it up. Its as if you overheard me saying Cap. america would be an interesting fight for batman, batman's going need something extra in terms of gadgets to take him down, and you barge in demanding to see if I can explain how Cap deals with the hellbat, or something similar, -1) it was not in the original conditions of the hypothetical battle and [helllbat being too far from no prep bats] 2) You weren't the one I was having this discussion with.
      • I did however ask kajin to further explain something he said to you, but that has no real bearing on this subject right now.

Zoro isn't strong enough to solo someone like Madara.

Madara is way too versatile for Zoro to overcome. The Clones, Substitutions, Genjutsu, etc.

Unless Zoro could outright blitz Madara faster than he could both move and react. There is no way Madara will lose to him.

Agreed.

Zoro is a beast now, quite possibly the best of the Straw Hats after that feat, and enough to give Madara a fight, but he's still not winning. The attack he tanked from Big Mum/Kaido was above an attack from PS but it took his all just to stop them dying and it almost took him out the fight (let's see what happens next chapter). He should be able to parry multiple hits from PS but I still don't see him winning.

Madara's greater range of abilities and ease of use of PS (he can use it extensively) still give him the win.

Law had flat-out stated that his powers doesn't work on Big Mom or Kaido, or else he would've teleported them away. Their haki is too strong.

So given Law's ability is some insane hax powers and also includes the body/mind swapping he did to the strawhat crew it means that ability wouldn't work on the Yonko, therefore any sort of mental attack like genjutsu could be countered with Haki.

Not to mention any powers that might directly alter their bodies would also not work.

Ehhhhhhhhhh..... CoA disrupts the efficacy of df powers on physcial bodies, e.g., CoA disrupts the logia's ability to disperse and reform, allowing people to actually hit them, or in the case of Luffy, hits his body and bypasses his blunt force immunity given by df's rubber body. To say CoA in any way protects the mind is another thing.

Law's df just gives a fantastical attribute to a heart that linkins it to a person's personality ensuring that switching it also switches personality. Logically, we do know that the heart is not the organ responsible for personalities... this is just Oda being Oda. It is a unique effect of Law's df on hearts, which can be vlocked by CoA. Actual sensroy/mental manipulation cannot be blocked by armor around the body.

Genjutsu won't affect their bodies... that infamous Jiraiya scan shows that the genjutsu affects five senses through chakra (not getting into that right now, or the fact that despite Madara's numerous showing, his rare usage of genjutsu, suggests hits not in character to do so, and suggesting otherwise would be like assuming Goku starting fight with a spirit bomb ). AFAIK in canon there are three ways to escape genjutsu:

1. Noticing details/flaws in the illusion -> this is what allows sharingan users to deal with genjutsu and is what diedara trained his eye to do.
2. Disrupting chakra flow (again implying chakra's importance in the genjutsu process, but again lets not go there)
3. Pain (remember Shikamaru breaking his finger), it sends sensory information to brain somehow allowing shikamaru to ecape genjutsu.

Only the first one is relevant here (this being a 1v1 battle rules out 3) which allows two possibilities

• Proficient CoO users, especially ones like fujitora, aren't limited to using five senses and do most of their work relying on CoO. Even Usopp showed that his perception of the world changed when he awoke CoO, No longer linked to normal 5 senses. Low ranked genjutsu users, being limited to five senses would have difficulty restraining Fujitora, who can increase gravity by just sheathing his sword. If the genjutsu does not actually prohibit movement I can see characters like Zoro simply swinging his sword at the 'aura' of his opponent.
• Advanced CoO users like Luffy and Katakuri can likely 'dodge' genjutsu. Kata, near always in the perfect state of mind (Luffy is not quite there but was shown proficient enough to use it to keep up with BM and Kaido), will likely foresee that getting closer, and whatever the trigger might be (listening to a sound, looking at something) would somehow restrict movement and logically avoid.
  • Katakuri's introduction showed that predicted the entirety of what I would assume to be near 30 second conversation and the actions that followed.
  • Even Luffy predicted that Apoo was going to use sound attacks, when Apoo was out of sight.
    • And for some reason it is unlikely that they cannot foresee that looking into someone's eyes will have consequences....

TLDR: CoA unlikely to defend Genjutsu. advanced CoO however has two possible workarounds as seen by Fujitora, Usopp, Katakuri, and Luffy.

@kajin_style said:

@supremekilla010 said:

@kajin_style said:

@supremekilla010 said:

@shirso said:

Not sure why Zoro doesn't blitz and one shot

Cause he isn't fast enough Lmao. Yall keep mentioning he stomped the combined attack of two Yonkos so what Madara is stronger than both Big Mom and Kaido.

lol Madara is not stronger than two Yonkos. Especially now that it is confirmed that strong Haki can nullify other people's powers from affecting their bodies.

Aka Genjutsu won't work on either of them thanks to their insane haki.

Madara is well above a Yonko. Big Mom and Kaido are looking worst and worst loool. So where using a no limit fallacy on Kaido's durability? Lol stop the most impressive thing he's tanked was a G4 Kong Barrage. EMS Madara attack potency and his destructive capabilities shit on Luffy there is no comparison. Haki does not give them a bypass on genjutsu stop the nonsense.

Haki does infact give them a bypass on genjutsu. Otherwise you are implying genjutsu would work on anyone who doesn't know how to operate chakra which would include all powerful telepaths across universes such as Xavier.

We all know.. Xavier would shit stomp on Madara's genjutsu. This proves that in-verse methods of counter mind-attacks are another way of counter genjutsu. Therefore if haki nulls the effects of external forces affecting their bodies (like Law's ability not work on on them) then it would do the same to mental attacks.

As for Durability (since you brought it up). You also have to consider their strongest attack as well as strongest thing they tanked. Kaido tanked a G4 Kong Barrage, yes and took no damage from it, which is more impressive than anything Madara tanked in his run.

Furthermore...!

That is the size of Kaido and Big Mom's combined attack. It is as big as an island. The size alone would obliterate any island, putting this attack in the country++ range just because Oda didn't illustrate it landing somewhere.

Madara ain't survive a direct hit from that. Wank all you want, he isn't surviving it.

1- Pure speculation genjutsu does not work the same way Law abilities so that's not a reason as to why i would nullify genjutsu. No it wouldn't because professor x is just simply to powerful he briefly held the phoenix force back with his physic powers alone and the resistance feats he has against other physics means genjutsu isn't working on him Zoro is not professor x so he doesn't get that same pass.

2- G4 Kong barrage aint nothing compared to Madara tanking 13 of full Kurama tailed beast explosions going off at once while not being damaged at all. He doesn't need to tank their combined attack when he can match it with his own offense and blow right through that and kill them.

3- Also what does Kaido and Big Mom combined attack have to do with Zoro? Zoro doesn't have an attack that is as strong or stronger than their combined attack so he isn't busting perfect Susanoo no way no how. Genjutsu one shots. Tailed beast Susanoo blade one shots. Zoro gets stomped

@almightyamortal: Please clean that reply up i don't even know what im trying to read.

@supremekilla010 said:

@kajin_style said:

@supremekilla010 said:

@kajin_style said:

@supremekilla010 said:

@shirso said:

Not sure why Zoro doesn't blitz and one shot

Cause he isn't fast enough Lmao. Yall keep mentioning he stomped the combined attack of two Yonkos so what Madara is stronger than both Big Mom and Kaido.

lol Madara is not stronger than two Yonkos. Especially now that it is confirmed that strong Haki can nullify other people's powers from affecting their bodies.

Aka Genjutsu won't work on either of them thanks to their insane haki.

Madara is well above a Yonko. Big Mom and Kaido are looking worst and worst loool. So where using a no limit fallacy on Kaido's durability? Lol stop the most impressive thing he's tanked was a G4 Kong Barrage. EMS Madara attack potency and his destructive capabilities shit on Luffy there is no comparison. Haki does not give them a bypass on genjutsu stop the nonsense.

Haki does infact give them a bypass on genjutsu. Otherwise you are implying genjutsu would work on anyone who doesn't know how to operate chakra which would include all powerful telepaths across universes such as Xavier.

We all know.. Xavier would shit stomp on Madara's genjutsu. This proves that in-verse methods of counter mind-attacks are another way of counter genjutsu. Therefore if haki nulls the effects of external forces affecting their bodies (like Law's ability not work on on them) then it would do the same to mental attacks.

As for Durability (since you brought it up). You also have to consider their strongest attack as well as strongest thing they tanked. Kaido tanked a G4 Kong Barrage, yes and took no damage from it, which is more impressive than anything Madara tanked in his run.

Furthermore...!

That is the size of Kaido and Big Mom's combined attack. It is as big as an island. The size alone would obliterate any island, putting this attack in the country++ range just because Oda didn't illustrate it landing somewhere.

Madara ain't survive a direct hit from that. Wank all you want, he isn't surviving it.

1- Pure speculation genjutsu does not work the same way Law abilities so that's not a reason as to why i would nullify genjutsu. No it wouldn't because professor x is just simply to powerful he briefly held the phoenix force back with his physic powers alone and the resistance feats he has against other physics means genjutsu isn't working on him Zoro is not professor x so he doesn't get that same pass.

2- G4 Kong barrage aint nothing compared to Madara tanking 13 of full Kurama tailed beast explosions going off at once while not being damaged at all. He doesn't need to tank their combined attack when he can match it with his own offense and blow right through that and kill them.

3- Also what does Kaido and Big Mom combined attack have to do with Zoro? Zoro doesn't have an attack that is as strong or stronger than their combined attack so he isn't busting perfect Susanoo no way no how. Genjutsu one shots. Tailed beast Susanoo blade one shots. Zoro gets stomped

Take me out of this quote chain

@kajin_style: that is not similar to genjutsu at all. Kidd had 0 difficuility repelling big mom, if laws statement meant that they could not be affected by any kind of hax due to their haki being strong this wouldn't of happened. At best the statement is in reference to them having resistance to laws spatial manip not hax not working on people with strong haki.

professor x is a omega level telepath, genjutsu works on the mind and affects the brain. xavier could dispel masterminds illusions, mastermind being able to trick a entire city with his illusions before. Xavier could easily dispel a genjutsu. bringing up someone who has illusion dispelling feats in a conversation with a verse that lacks these feats is a false equivalence

??? Uhhh..... no.

lol, the second point was in essence asking you to actually read the previous point (in previous post), seeing as how you replied whilst bringing up unnecessary details and having strayed form the point of discussion. SO this is me asking you to do so again.

You made two points. So did I. If you are having difficulty despite me breaking down the the two points further, into smaller bullet points..... I don't know what I can do for you. If you can't read something, its on you.

Take a closer look. Kidd grabbed on to Big Mom with his armored suit and repelled that to lift her off the ground. He's lifting the metal holding Big Mom, he's not not repelling her. It also wouldn't make sense since he has magnetism powers.

@ob1toe said:

Professor X is the prime example that there are other counter methods to Genjutsu besides what the manga says. Forcing the limiting rules of narutoverse on to others without considering their own in-verse counter methods would be unreasonable and biased.

So I wouldn't call this false equivalence; Xavier is just an example. For the proof we look at Law's ability to mind swap people. He did it to the Strawhats. If he could've done it to Doffy, Big Mom or Kaido then he wouldn't need Luffy's help for anything and just win all the time. So Haki does prevent some form of mental/physical alteration by powers.

The only real false equivalence here is me saying equalizing Mind Transfer and Illusions. To me they are in the realm of mind powers as they affect the same thing.

@kajin_style: xavier can literally dispel illusions he has feats doing so but big mom and kaido have never done so and law doesnt cast illusions. to break a genjutsu you need actual illusion breaking feats its not bias to expect this. mind swaping is not a illusion. haki prevents spatial manip all law said was he couldnt move big mom and kaido not that he couldnt swap their personailites or anything like that

@supremekilla010 said:

@kajin_style said:

Haki does infact give them a bypass on genjutsu. Otherwise you are implying genjutsu would work on anyone who doesn't know how to operate chakra which would include all powerful telepaths across universes such as Xavier.

We all know.. Xavier would shit stomp on Madara's genjutsu. This proves that in-verse methods of counter mind-attacks are another way of counter genjutsu. Therefore if haki nulls the effects of external forces affecting their bodies (like Law's ability not work on on them) then it would do the same to mental attacks.

As for Durability (since you brought it up). You also have to consider their strongest attack as well as strongest thing they tanked. Kaido tanked a G4 Kong Barrage, yes and took no damage from it, which is more impressive than anything Madara tanked in his run.

Furthermore...!

That is the size of Kaido and Big Mom's combined attack. It is as big as an island. The size alone would obliterate any island, putting this attack in the country++ range just because Oda didn't illustrate it landing somewhere.

Madara ain't survive a direct hit from that. Wank all you want, he isn't surviving it.

1- Pure speculation genjutsu does not work the same way Law abilities so that's not a reason as to why i would nullify genjutsu. No it wouldn't because professor x is just simply to powerful he briefly held the phoenix force back with his physic powers alone and the resistance feats he has against other physics means genjutsu isn't working on him Zoro is not professor x so he doesn't get that same pass.

2- G4 Kong barrage aint nothing compared to Madara tanking 13 of full Kurama tailed beast explosions going off at once while not being damaged at all. He doesn't need to tank their combined attack when he can match it with his own offense and blow right through that and kill them.

3- Also what does Kaido and Big Mom combined attack have to do with Zoro? Zoro doesn't have an attack that is as strong or stronger than their combined attack so he isn't busting perfect Susanoo no way no how. Genjutsu one shots. Tailed beast Susanoo blade one shots. Zoro gets stomped

1- Indeed, Genjustu works slightly different but it is still an illusion power, a mental attack of sorts. I would equate Law's Mind Transfer to Genjutsu's illusion ability. I am also glad we agree about Xavier and I am not saying that Genjutsu won't work on Zoro. That's quite likely. I am saying it won't work on Big Mom or Kaido.

2 - Madara did not tank 13 tail beast bombs. Kurama with Susanoo. There's a big difference there. Also the blade tailbeast bombs didn't explode on him. Hashirama's Sage Release Wood form smashed through all the bladed Bijuu damas that Madara fired. You even see it in the comic strip you posted. They fly into the fists, slicing some off but the rest land on Kurama/Madara and strip of the Susanoo. That dust cloud/explosion is all from Hashirama's 1000 fist attack.

3- If Zoro can tank and attack of that caliber, even for a few seconds. Then he can dish out an attack that is a few notches down from that. It is proof we haven't seen Zoro's best attacks yet, despite that impressive Pica feat. He will out do himself. The hype alone of his next feat will puts him in striking range of taking out Madara.

4- A factor not considered in this discussion is speed, but this is rather difficult to quantify with Zoro, but we can certainly say that Madara is slower than him given Zoro must be on par with at least Base Luffy who dodged light speed attacks. It took Six Path Madara to even come close to Light speed reflexes and that is just scaling him off of Naruto. So he's light speed at best while Zoro must be comfortable LS or higher.

You raise a good point. It is spatial manipulation, even the mind swapping.

This however doesn't resolve the conundrum. Haki is the manifestation of willpower, used as a weapon/superpower. The more willpower a person has the stronger their Haki. In typical lore with mind powers/illusion powers, the character's willpower was always a factor in the effectiveness of the mind/illusion effect.

However, Genjutsu is different as it nix that weakness and boxes itself to its own in-verse methods of undoing it. One could argue Haki is a form of chakra, like a surge of energy a person needs to disrupt chakra but that too would be stretching.

One Piece also does itself no favors here as there have not been any instances of someone doing a mental attack of any kind, unless you'll count Conqueror's Haki knocking people out as a form of psychic attack. Then you could quantify Luffy knocking out 50,000 people as a high level psychic attack in Marvel and that illustrate a better picture as to why Genjutsu wouldn't work on Kaido or Big Mom, but it IS stretching the meaning of things.

So yeah.. I don't see a solution to this, but at the same time to say Haki has no influence in them countering Genjutsu or illusions powers affecting their mind; would be a disservice to One Piece.

Fix your pathetic grammar and then you'll get a proper reply.

@kajin_style:

1- It works different from Law ability. Plus DF with haxed abilities can be overpowered by Haki. This doesn't apply to genjutsu.

2- Madara did tank that explosion because it covered both of them and no that didn't come from Hashirama because the big explosion didn't occur until the Tailed beast bombs went off.

3- Zoro didn't tank that he deflected it clearly since it was clearly shown to be thrusted in the air. Just seen chapter 1010 Zoro doesn't have anywhere near that attack power bro. He's never going to be able to cut through a perfect Susanoo without get caught in the shockwaves.

4- Kuma lazers weren't light speed if that was the case then pre time skip Zoro would be light speed. Since he dodged kuma's attacks that clearly isn't the case. Zoro has no real good speed feats just good reaction feats . Juubi Jin Madara is far above light speed.

The anime illustrates my point better. That explosion wasn't the Bijuu Damas:

3 - Perfect Susanoo wouldn't survive a combine attack from the Yonko either. So I don't know where your getting at. Zoro was able to chop Pica in half and send the upper half flying in the air. That outdoes any EMS Madara feat minus a Bijuu bomb.

4 - Kuma's lasers are light speed and he DID narrowly escaped a laser beam. Yes and him being within light speed pre-time skip follows the story's progression. They were lightning timing before Enel and proved it during their fights with him. CP9 proved themselves to be lightning timers++ and Zoro took out their second best. So by the time they the time skip it makes sense for them to be FTL.

And if I were to look at the manga pages he dodges it after the beam was fired:

And that is a weaken, exhausted Zoro after fighting Oars.

So it looks like Zoro one slices madara

Lock this thread now

Madara 1 shots him come on now

All madara need is only PS

Madara solos the verse.

Madara oneshots with PS.

Zoro oneshots