Roronoa Zoro
VS
Renji Abarai
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Round 1: Pre-Skip
Round 2: Current Zoro, Renji before Royal Guard Training
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Rules: Shikai and Bankai Allowed, Zoro can see Renji
Location: Marineford
Zoro can even defeat the current Renji without many problems.
Zoro can even defeat the current Renji without many problems.
That's because current Renji has no good feats sadly
Zaga Teppō (?)
@beyondbeyond: Are you trying to say that Aizen isn't powerful?
@jeepeh: Nope! Just saying he isn't a physical brute Like zoro, zaraki & Renji! He's more analytical and tactful. Meaning when Renji mentioned he trained to fight Aizen it was pretty moot. Only thing that can be compared is reiatsu level. Which makes sense seeing as Aizen being 2x captain level iirc should've blocked komomura's swing in your scan. In bleach logic as long as I have more spiritual pressure I win (soul crush) look at what happened to Soi Fon when she attacked Aizen. Also, about soul crush as I stated before above the logic is broken anyways.....Hisagi killing Tosen. But, do you honestly think Renji....would foil or beat Aizen in a 1v1? Current Renji vs any Aizen? The most comical part is Renji never seen Aizen go bankai! Soo Renji's point again?
He doesn't rely only on his power stats if that's what you mean, but considering Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi, and Base Aizen > Bankai Ichigo, Aizen >>>> Kenpachi. :P
And yeah, I highly doubt Renji was actually as powerful as Aizen. He said he trained to fight someone of that level, but he didn't say he succeeded.
That thing with Soi Fon and Aizen can be chalked up to it being an illusion, it never happened because they weren't even fighting Aizen, unless Momo can do it, which I don't think anyone believes. >.> I believe that Reiatsu matters when clashing and cutting eachother, but Hax abilities are Hax Abilities, otherwise Yamamoto should be resistant to Kyoka suigetsu.
Renji vs Aizen? Heck no. xD Current Renji? I'd say current Renji > Pre-Hogyoku Aizen, if only for this statement.
Shinji says that he doesn't feel anyone that can stand up to the Sternritter, even though Rukia and Renji both just obliterated two of them. So Shinji couldn't sense them, which would make all RG trainees transcendents. Which makes Modern Ichigo, Renji, Byakuya, and Rukia = Chrysalis Aizen > Modern Kenpachi's Meteor feat.
What do you mean about Aizen's Bankai? We don't know what his Bankai does. e.e
Tosen vs Hisagi? Idk, Tousen's only feat was beating up Komamura, who was probably one of the weaker captains, and Shuhei was shown to be quite powerful with his Shikai, you could also just claim Plot-Kai. Or that Tousen had his Reiatsu level lowered to a point that Hisagi could mess with him because he thought he won.
@jeepeh: Aizen to soi fon: "A battle between shinigami is a battle between spiritual pressure." "With my amount of spiritual pressure I can easily negate your "two strike death poke with my spiritual pressure." Then Aizen says not much later: "My kyokasuigetsu's ability to create illusions and trick all "five senses" (meaning touch and sight as well). This is after he switched himself with Momo. Before the switch he cut dwn the other shinigami komamura, rose, & love first. Soi fon was negated after she struck, then sensui tags aizen from the shadows At this time they "felt" they had hit him but "NO". Aizen negated soi fon first then countered shunsui with illusion.
Shinji asked Aizen how long Kyoka Suigetsu had been active, he responded with "As long as you've thought it wasn't" flashing back to when Toshiro first attacked him,
It wasn't until shiro shanked Aizen & Ichigo yelled what are you doing, then the capts realized it was momo was in another illusion. So Aizen tricked the capts twice & negated the death poke. Unless you think Aizen used momo to cut down Rose, love, komomura and negate the death poke? Which I don't think so either....
Momo cutting them down? Doubtful. But it's very possible that Aizen cut them in Momo's place, then went to the ground. While they were seeing Momo as Aizen Aizen could've cut them down from a different angle, much like he did to Halibel.
Aizen feared yamma....thats why he needed wonderwise, Aizen states yammas spirit press. was to overwhelming for him to handle! If Aizen can counter soi fon why can't yamma counter aizen?
That's my point. Yamamoto was fooled by the illusions too.
And if yamma can't counter Kyoka, then why the need for wonderwise?
Aizen said "In a fair fight you would beat me" or something to that effect, I'm rushing so I'm not getting the scans. But Yama-Ji's shikai is very AoE intensive. Even if Aizen wasn't where he was in the illusion it's very possible to still hit him, much like how Bambietta defeated Shinji by blowing up the entire area. Also, Aizen wasn't using Kyoka Suigetsu and Yama had him trapped. Thus Wonderweiss was needed.
So it sounds to me hax abilities are moot if it's a battle of 2 shinigami, were the stronger shini is superior to the other.
Then why were Yamamoto and Unohona under the hypnosis? And why wasn't Shinji's illusion negated by Aizen? The only conceivable excuse would be that Shinji was more powerful than a one-armed Soi Fon in Reiatsu output, which is rather debatable.
SS arc: ichigo> zaraki spirit pressure yea....zaraki> ichigo physical strength yea
Eh, not when Hueco Mundo Arc masked Ichigo lifted 26,000,000 tons in his Vizard Training. xD
Shinji says no one can fight decently, Make sense seeing as they're out numbered and by a superior enemy too.
That's not what he said, Kenpachi's outnumbered yet they have faith in him. Shinji just straight up can't feel the Reiatsu from them.
Renji, rukia, byakuya are moot....Kenny slaughtered 3 sternritters and is considered a war potential B4 training. These "transcendence" Renji, Rukia, and byakuya.
aren't even considered war potentials unlike...."AIZEN" who was able to shift Juha's sense of time just off a visit. Now tell me you still don't believe Renji>Aizen. When Juha doesn't even consider Renji a threat or valuable asset.
The SWP list was made before their upgrades, he is unaware of how strong they are. Lieutenants are one-shotting sternritter, that's not normal. So your point is moot there. It's also possible that Aizen is still in his post-FGT form, we really don't know. Also I heard the legitimate translation just says that Aizen distracted him with his talking. Not actually warping his perception. Also, Kenpachi slaughtered 3 weaker Sternritter, not the likes of Mask, who defeated two Vizard captains in base.
Aizen hasn't shown bankai, meaning his fully power is still hidden. How can Renji claim Aizen level when he never seen Aizen's true potential?
We're talking power level, not hax ability. Aizen's shikai is complete hypnosis, nothing about power levels rising.
I say Zaraki new shikai> current Renji...
This is likely true, considering Zaraki is a transcendent too
But he lowered his power level to the point that it was feel-able before destroying the meteor.
...Aizen> current Renji.
Which Aizen? Base Aizen? Shikai Aizen? Bankai Aizen? Chrysalis Aizen? Mullet Aizen? Butterflaizen? Monster Aizen? Post-FGT Aizen?
If you think current Renji is still stronger than base Aizen or equal to then you believe. Renji is 2x the spiritual pressure any base capt. and Renji can pose a threat to Juha or would be acknowledged for war potential status. Which I have to disagree sir!
Renji being 2x the spiritual pressure of any base captain is already basically confirmed. Think about it, :P Mask de Masculine defeated Bankai Rose, and Bankai Kensei, all in base. Renji showed up in Shikai and made a fool of him. He eventually went Volstandiig, which if comparable to Bankai should be 5-10x stronger than base, and worried Renji, so Renji went Bankai and obliterated him.
@mrunsmiley: Erm. Am I being tagged in the post for a specific reason? I'm guessing you want me to help? xD Although I must correct a few things in your post.
1. Hierro has differing levels, you're right that it's not a thing of "mastering" it, but there are different levels, and Nnoitra has the strongest, according to himself.
2. I don't believe vaporizing Mask had anything to do with it. Mask said that James would come back despite being disintegrated, the only thing that kept him dead was that Mask and James were both dead at the same time, if they're both dead before the other can revive them then there's no way to come back.
@jeepeh: -"A battle between shinigami is a battle between spiritual pressure." "With my amount of spiritual pressure I can easily negate your silly ability with merely my spiritual pressure." ....Not hax abilities! Said by Aizen himself, is my point!
Said by Aizen's illusion. What do you mean "Not hax abilities" ? Soi Fon's ability is a hax ability, but I'm saying that had it been the real Aizen, he wouldn't have been able to do that. Which is actually further proven just recently when Askin was able to use his powers on Royal Guard members.
-No, Aizen responds to his question with another question....How long do you think I wasn't using my kyokasuigetsu? Meaning he's been using it from the get go and there was no flash back to shiro. It just showed him falling down with momo in his arms.
*checks manga*
See the little flashback panel there?
-You're saying while they were being distracted, Aizen came from momo's place and cut them from behind? Then when did he shift Momo? And why did ichigo notice the switch before the other captains? Plus, the captains would've already been out before Momo was ever needed to shift in his place if he was that slick.
Who's to say how long Aizen was down there? He could've had it look like Hinamori was down there when in actuality there was no-one, then gone down later. Why did Ichigo notice it? Ichigo has never seen Kyoka Suigetsu's release, he isn't affected by the hypnosis, so he saw them attacking Hinamori. What do you mean by that last sentence?
-"Aizen wasn't using Kyoka Suigetsu and Yama had him trapped. Thus Wonderweiss was needed."....Exactly my point, Aizen knew what was up! That's why he prepped wonderwise for yamma. In a "fair" fight that includes Aizen's ability vs yamma. The battle could've ended like shinji and bambi like you said or yama could've one shot with kyoka being useless. But as I asked before when not use kyoka on yamma instead of wonderwise? Yamma also couldn't go bankai either.
... I think we're getting confused with what we're discussing. I'm saying that Yama's power > Aizen's power. But Aizen's ability isn't negated by Reiatsu. Why not use Kyoka instead of Wonderweiss? Idk, why not use Kyoka on Ichigo instead of throwing Fraggors at him? I'll tell you why, because Plotkai. Or, like I said before, Using Kyoka Suigetsu could've possibly ended badly because Yama has such intensive area of effect. He could've ended up hitting him anyway. Completely negating Yama's power is far more foolproof, also, Yamamoto expected to be under Kyoka's control had it been active, if such an integral thing as Reiatsu canceling existed, then Yamamoto would know about it.
-When did Aizen put them under again? It was stated that Unohona slightly seen through Aizen's illusion corpse. Aizen used prep time over all thus tricking them all on a double cross. Wasn't shinji captain way before soi fon? Plus, wasn't he backed with hollow powers atm too?
Aizen hypnotized them all back in SS before the defection :P Isane mentioned that he gathered the Lieutenants to demonstrate it. Are you using Aizen's prep skills to try to debunk his power? Shinji was captain a long time ago, at the same time as Yoruichi. Age doesn't really = power, otherwise Ichigo'd be the weakest Shinigami ever. Shinji wasn't using his Hollow powers, did you see a mask? :P
-Yea, vizards have a boost in power from hollowfication, plus, did kenny attempt to lift the same 26,000,000 ton object as ichigo? I think a hollowfied kenny would to be to much! Yet, still a beastly concept! :p
Vizards CAN have a boost, in order to get that boost they need to put their masks on. Kenny's only strength feats are throwing the rock at Yammy and stuff. Where did hollowfied kenpachi come into this?
-It's only speculation by saying he can't sense the others. Nothing implies shinji can't because they transcend, both our points could be valid however, if shinji can't sense "transcendence" like you claim then how could kenny be considered a "transcendent" too?
Everything implies it actually, Shinji said "Based on the REIATSU, No ONE is here to fight decently" even though Byakuya slaughtered 3-5 Sternritter at once, Rukia one shotted F, Renji one shotted S. Do you know what transcendence is? Aizen was a transcendent in FKT after entering the Chrysalis stage, Isshin said that he couldn't feel his spiritual pressure, that's because his SP was so high that it was unfeelable by someone of their level, but Ichigo could sense it because Ichigo was way more powerful than Isshin, Yoruichi, and Urahara. Although Ichigo himself wasn't a transcendent, he was closer than everyone else. This is the exact same thing happening with Shinji, Shinji can't sense obviously captain+++++++ level fighters. And did you read the scans? The 11th Division members couldn't sense Kenpachi until he lowered his power.
-Regardless, Juha still doesn't see them as a threat. From what you stated, they would've went under his nose in terms of power and threat thus foiling Juha's perception of the flow of battle. Plus, doesn't haschwalth know the scales of the battle? Meaning wouldn't he had detected the "transcendence" powers as they arrived if they were that much a threat? Juha knew he himself was on a timely schedule too. However, I'll agree and say he lost track of time while talking to Aizen.
Whether or not Juha noticed them as a threat however many years ago he wrote the book is Irrelevant. Back then they weren't this powerful, but the RG trained them, now they are. And that's pretty much exactly what happened. RG trained Lieutenants to become captain++++++++ level. Hawshwalth is the balance, he can balance people's power level, shown by him cutting Ichigo's Bankai in half, evening Ichigo and Juha's power so Juha could stomp him, and cutting through Cang Du's Iron. Hashwalth can't "sense" power better than anyone else, lol.
-know, I'm not talking hax abilities broski....When bankai is released so is a heighten level of spiritual energy.
5-10x. On average. But so what? O_oWe still haven't seen it to know how powerful he is, what it does, or anything else. How do we even know that he has a bankai? Master of illusions here, ya know?
- What scan or chapter states kenny as transcendent again? He lowered his power?He just used shikai he has yet to show bankai if you're afraid this is his max potential buddy!
.... I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm trying to say, And it was during the Kenny vs Gremmy chapters, should be the latter 570's. Yes, he lowered his power. The 11th division members wondered why they could feel him now, but not before. The only explanation is that he lowered his Reiatsu level, just like AIZEN stated.
When Kenpachi first got there he was like "I came to see what was goin on, imagine my disappointment to find this little kid". At which point he likely lowered his Reiatsu level. And Kenpachi being at his max is the exact opposite of what I'm saying. What kenpachi did to the meteor was done with his lowered Reiatsu, if he cranks his Reiatsu to max he will become a transcendent again and be far more powerful, then he still has his eyepatch on.
-Clearly any Aizen, Renji isn't even really that impressive when trying to hold his candle to Aizen's im sorry, Aizen completely overshadows him in all aspects.
Not Modern Renji. Which is my entire point. Modern Renji > Pre Hogyoku Aizen as we've seen him.
-Nope! Mask would've been a non factor by rose and kensei if it wasn't for the james hax.
Except there was a James, And James cheered, and Mask's power spiked, and he obliterated them both. Then Renji showed up and made a fool of him (in his spiked power state) with just Shikai, then he got even more powerful and started overpowering Renji, he went volstandiig, Renji went Bankai, Renji killed him like a fool.
Renji's raga teppou hax is the only thing that gave him the win, as he had the ability to incinerate him.
The thing that let Renji win was
1. He was more powerful than mask by an enormous margin
2. He killed Mask before James was able to come back to heal him, if they're both dead at once then they can't revive eachother.The incineration was just a "RUB IT IN HIS FACE" moment.
After, juha called james back.
What? You mean after the Renji fight? He said "Is James dead?" If james was dead then Mask wasn't returning, so he could absorb the power.
Renji got dropped kicked and one shot by mask first go round.
*COUGH* Pre-Upgrade *COUGH*
Kenny slaughter 3 sternritters again....
*COUGH* Pre-Upgrade *COUGH*
Take james hax away mask ain't much, place mask in a 1v1 with kenny mask would've been slaughtered.
James is Mask's power, when James cheers, he's more powerful. The fact that Rose and kensei could defeat him in absolute base is completely irrelevant. What matters is that they were UNABLE to defeat him once he powered up, but Renji WAS.
Point is renji's overall performance in the war is lacking completely when compared to kenny.
That's because Kenny is Kenny. Kenny defeated 3 fodder Sternritter that didn't kill anyone. Renji killed Mask and is fighting Bazz-B. Kenpachi got lucky with Gremmy, you can't argue that part either, Kenpachi got LUCKY with Gremmy. However, why does it matter whether or not Kenpachi is doing better than Renji? Both are transcendents, Which the point I'm trying to show, Kenpachi and Byakuya should always be closer to Top-Tier. The fact that Renji was oneshotted by mask BEFORE THE UPGRADE is so IRRELEVANT that it shouldn't even be considered at this point.
Hence, is why kenny is war potential and shinji specified on kenny completely.
The reason Kenny is war potentional is because he was super powerful BEFORE the second invasion and everyone trained. But now Renji has ascended above pre-shikai Kenny. But Kenny has ascended passed any other Shinigami pre-training. So Kenpachi's still more powerful because they both upgraded at the same time. It doesn't change the fact that Renji, Rukia, and Byakuya are all strong enough to be considered SPW. They said that Byakuya wasn't a special war potential, but he OFF-SCREENED 5 STERNRITTER. 5. at once. And he was arguably as strong or stronger than Kenpachi from the beginning.
Must I say how much a threat kenny (by himself) poses to all of soul society if he decides to turn on a revolt?
Rukia could take him down. :D Byakuya, Ichigo. Kenpachi's not alone in his massive power. I consider Renji to be the weakest of the transcendents at this point. Rukia is higher because Absolute 0 is hax as fudge. Anyone that gets hit by Absolute 0 is DEAD. I don't care who they are.
Renji hasn't and more than likely will never receive this type of hype due to him not being a "kenpachi" like zaraki.
Wut? "Kenpachi" is a title that you get for being a bloodthirsty war-monger. xD Ichigo > Kenpachi, but Ichigo doesn't have the Kenpachi title, it changes nothing.
Rose and kensei also haven't shown hollow powers either,
That's their fault, they're still Captain level without them.
i'll say Renji is above captain level by a bit.....
... He oneshotted.... someone who defeated two mid-tier captains...in Bankai.......in base...... Mask was Captain level in base. Then he upgraded like 2 or 3 times, then he went Volstandiig. Then Renji killed him. ~_~ "A bit above captain level" is downplaying intensly. You don't oneshot Sternritter by being "Just above Captain level". The only people to one-shot sternritter before the second invasion are, Ichigo, Yamamoto, and Kenpachi. All 3 of which are FAR above average captain level.
which is impressive for someone who isn't a captain to begin with.
Ichigo's not a captain, yet I can guarantee you that Ichigo > Any captain alive right now.
@beyondbeyond: I'm leaving the debate here, go ahead and reply if you want, I'm not replying. I've explained things to you 3 times now and I don't want to go back and forth with the same things.
@jeepeh: - What chapter was that? cuz, I was watching the anime version lol....Also Askin is a quincy he should be able to harm a shinigami.
Never trust the Anime. Never. Askin being a quincy has NOTHING to do with it, it's still Reiatsu vs Reiatsu in a way, and he's captain class like all the sternritter, Ouetsu slaughtered 4 of them at once with a sealed sword, but Askin's ability still works on him.
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/559/5 Quincy can steal reshi, plus shinigami bodies are made of reishi and quincy are opposite to shinigami so it makes sense.
Again, NOTHING TO DO with this scene.
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/565/13 Quincy make reishi they take their own.
And your point is? And no they can't, Juha can give pieces of his soul out, but he can't just make Reishi from nothing, and Quincies gather Reishi from the outside world and combine it with their own.
-ichigo was staring the whole time, so wouldn't he had seen when rose, kommura, love got cut? Or that soi fon and shunsui missed?
Yes, but what? Just because Ichigo sees it means nothing for the rest of them, Ichigo didn't move in. Aizen controls their senses, Ichigo could've walked up in their face screaming "STOP IT YOU (insert five minute long censored noise here)!!!" But they wouldn't have known anything, they didn't hear Ichigo screaming at them until Aizen let them.
And whats the point of wonderweiss if Yamma isn't immune to kyoka?
I have explained this multiple times. Yamma > Aizen in power level, as you saw, Aizen stabbed Yamma in the gut and he wasn't fazed even a little. Also, Yamma had hold of him/his sword, which, according to Gin, releases you from the hypnosis.
Yamma couldn't go bankai and was held back due to the others being around him iirc.
*facedesk* What's your point? And not really, Yamma made it very clear that he was ready to kill all of the captains and Vice-Captains to bring Aizen down, he was actually about to do it.
- So, Aizen has to use his release shikai in front of your sight to effect you right?
Yes
When was it shown he used shikai on yamma?
In order to become a captain you must present your "Bankai" to a few other captains, also, if you have a Bankai you can release your sword without calling the name or anything, he could've just been like "Yo CC watchya think of mah sword?" Bam! Instant hypnosis. It happened off camera before the beginning of the series.
Yes, I said Aizen used prep, then later I thought he faked his death using shikai thus tricking everyone? Ichigo is the exception due to him being a rare mix breed. Good point on the mask too btw!
Yes but what does that have anything to do with this? Aizen using Prep doesn't make him weak like I think you're implying. Ichigo isn't under Kyoka Suigetsu, not because he's a hybrid, because he's never seen Aizen's Shikai release.
- my point was, has kenny been shown to attempt to lift said object or struggle with less heavier objects than vizard ichigo?
No, but Kenpachi only has one real strength feat.
I was talking SS arc ichigo before vizard training, you brought up vizard part btw. Kenny would've been a beast had kubo made him into a vizard is all im sayin. :p
That kinda has no part in this discussion though. ._.
-http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/566/6 Here Nana clearly tracked down Renji from the fight with mask.
Your point being? They never said HOW he found him, he likely just followed the trail of destruction
-http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/566/8 Rukia can't sense other shinigami
1. She specifically implies that she can't feel them because they're all DEAD.
2. She also specifically mentions that she found Isane's Reiatsu. xD
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/566/9 Rukia can't even sense Quincy.
It was explained in the Manga that the quincies spread Reiatsu all over the Seireitei to mess with the sensing.
So, what proves they're transcendent?
Ikkaku walking up to Rukia and saying "Hey Kuchiki, I can't feel your Reiatsu at all, what's goin on?" Would mean that Rukia is a transcendent.
-http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/554/16 Juha say's he predicted the shinigami wouldn't do nothing after their bankai were stolen. Meaning he thinks outside of the box. Granted this doesn't prove or debunk the "transcendence" but, it shows Juha knows whats going on during battle.
Saying "I stole their gun, so they're gonna get another gun" isn't showing at all that he can predict future upgrades. xD
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/559/3 Haschwalth claims the battles are going even. meaning he knows watsup too.
Saying "Soul Reaper down, Quincy down, Soul Reaper down, Quincy down" again, isn't special, or prediction. Even Kyoraku agrees with him.
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/559/4 Confirmation that Haschwalth knows the flow of battle as it's his job to keep the scales of battle in their favor. Meaning the quincy are updated with info of whats going on in the war.
...... Are we reading the same Manga? Hashwalth said "I came to tip the balance in our favor". Meaning that he came to kill Kyoraku, killing Kyoraku would leave the Shinigami leaderless. Thus giving the Quincies the advantage. Hashwalth can't sit in the Silbern and say "Juha, in 5 days that guy's gonna get an upgrade, better add him to the SWP." That just doesn't happen.
So, Nothing suggests they're transcendent level like rare cases Ichigo and Aizen.
Everything does actually, everything that you just posted proved nothing at all, you showed that Nanana, Haswalth, and Kyoraku have eyes to see what's going on, and that Rukia knows that everyone is pretty much dead. You've shown nothing to disprove me.
If true Nana shouldn't have tracked Renji and rukia should be able to sense all weaker shinigami and quincy. The only two characters who were ever considered transcendent ichigo because his potential by birth and Aizen due to the hyogoku.
Nana found Renji in the middle of the night, they don't say how he found them. Again, it's not hard to use your eyes and say "All of these buildings are destroyed, oh crap Mask is dead. I wonder what's in this building, OH HEY RENJI". Rukia couldn't sense Shinigami and Quincy because the Soul Reapers are dead, and even in the scan you posted she says that the Reiatsu is so rare that she was able to sense Isane's. So yeah. Also, Rukia not sensing them would mean that all of THEM are transcendents, are you sure you know what a transcendent is? Again, the Quincy messed up their Reiatsu sensing earlier on IIRC. Although later on it seems to be working fine.
Not saying it's impossible for there to be other transcendence, just that it's speculation until proven in the manga is all.
But it has been proven, that's my entire point. What happened when Ichigo showed up to fight Aizen? Tatski said "I don't feel anything from Ichigo". What happened when Shinji was looking for people? "I can't sense any of the people that trained in the RG."
Had the "transcendence" been that much of threat, you'd think juha wouldn't have left his Quincys to die.
But Juha WANTS the Quincy to die, when the quincy die their power goes back to him. Juha himself explained this, anyone that he comes in contact with, all of the quincy, everyone that dies in this war, their soul will go back to him, making him more powerful.
- Take the hax abilities out. When one unleashes Bankai, they unleash a bigger amount of spiritual pressure than they had while in shikai form. Meaning, their total energy is suppressed until bankai is released. Considering the fact that Aizen was a captain leaves me no reason to believe he didn't have bankai.
Even though there's no proof of such?
Only, kenpachi is a captain without bankai.
When that statement was made, no-one knew Aizen had a hypnosis Zan. It's very simple for Aizen to release Kyoka Suigetsu and say "OH HEY GUYS LOOK, IT'S A BANKAI THAT'S A DRAGON!"
So it's moot to speculate him having no bankai.
Uh, apparently not.
Renji trained to fight someone on Aizen level, not some who has Aizen level illusions or hax.
I already agreed that pre-timeskip Renji would lose. What's your point.
Plus 5-10x? speculation again? or you got scans?
- More speculation, I reread the gremmy fight and the chapters around it and didn't find anything stating Kenny being "transcended" or lowered his power, so if you don't mind pointing me to that point.
I ALREADY HAVE. Go re-read it again. I even posted scans of it, how have you not seen it? The 11th division people literally say "Wait, why didn't we sense his power before?"
However, I'll add my point to part of your point to make more sense of what you're saying. Kenny hasn't fully powered up true, why? Because he has yet to use "bankai."
Kenpachi has no Bankai as of yet, he just now learned his Shikai. It'll take 10 years (or was it 100?) of training to achieve his Bankai, unless he uses Urahara's invention, which isn't possible right now.
He only released shikai, which nothing I read suggest he held back other then the fact he didn't go all out using bankai or use the patch (if that works still).
*sigh* The fact that the 11th division members weren't able to sense him until he started fighting Gremmy and got disappointed,
Now, If kenny goes bankai, he'd be cranking out all his power, so I can imagine him being at transcendent levels then agreed. Until then imma wait till what the manga says instead of speculating.
The manga has said it, that's the entire point.
- Pre hogyoku aizen tricked the shinigami and one shot multiple captains in one setting. When has Renji ever shown to one shot multiple captains in one setting?
When he one-shotted someone who was beating up two Bankai captains. Btw Aizen oneshotted a bunch of Shikai captains.
regardless of kyoka's hax.
- Yea, Renji off paneled james? Kensei was stronger before james pumped up mask.
THAT DOESN'T MATTER.
Kensei just lacked a proper finisher or hax like the incineration from teppou or rose bankai. Kensei didn't know of masks superstar power till after the fact. Point being S for superstar was a power given to mask by juha through his blood. Mask is useless had he not drank from juha's blood.
The same can be said of EVERY sternritter, stop making excuses please.
So, mask at base would've got stomped by either captain.
Not any, Kensei had to use Bankai.
The hax was the only problem, which Renji capitalized on unlike kensei.
The problem was, Post-Upgrade Mask > Kensei. Post-Upgrade Renji > Post-Upgrade x3 Mask.
Post Upgrade Bankai Renji > Post upgrade x2 Volstandiig Mask > Post Upgrade Shikai Renji > Post-Upgrade x2 Mask > Kensei > Base Mask.
Rose was just stupid he was going to beat mask but mask popped his own ear drums.
Rose had a hax Bankai, not a powerful one.
Had Rose been smart and not released the info on his bankai he would've taken it by hax ability.
"HAX ABILITY" exactly. How can you call bull when Mask uses "Hax" but it's perfectly fine when rose does it?
Though yes Renji is far more stronger than Rose and kensei, they just got tricked by mask and his hax is all.
... You contradicted yourself. Renji is far stronger than Rose and Kensei. That's the point, you said Renji was barely above captain level. Now you're saying he's far stronger. I'm starting to think you're trolling.
- *COUGH* kenny> Renji *COUGH*..... *COUGH* All day! *COUGH*
*COUGH* speculation *COUGH* not Canon *COUGH* Anyway, didn't I just agree that Kenny > Renji?
Post Upgrade Kenny > Post Upgrade Renji > Pre-Upgrade Kenpachi > Pre Upgrade Renji.
okay?
- Mask has james only through obtaining the letter "S" through drinking juha's blood.
James is Mask's power.
Juha pretty much gave mask james, had he never drank from juha's blood mask wouldn't have had the james hax.
Let me make this clear,
HOW MASK BECAME POWERFUL IS IRRELEVANT. THE THING THAT'S RELEVANT IS THAT RENJI DEFEATED HIM AT HIS MOST POWERFUL, WHEREAS ROSE AND KENSEI WERE DEFEATED BY A WEAKER FORM. THE FACT THAT MASK SURVIVED BECAUSE HE HAD HEALING ABILITIES IS IRRELEVANT, THE POINT IS THAT AFTER HE HEALED HE WAS MORE POWERFUL AND KENSEI COULDN'T HANDLE THE POWER, RENJI COULD.
*Ahem* Sorry, lost my cool for a second.
Yes, by beating the stronger form of mask Renji was proven stronger than the two individually.
That's literally the only thing I'm saying and you're arguing against.
The reason I bring up base mask is because mask didn't have what it takes to beat rose and kensei without hax. There was a loop hole that gave mask the advantage. kensei and rose made mistakes, while Renji didn't he capitalized the loophole.
You're doing it again, you admit that I'm right then you try to excuse why it isn't right. Renji > Volstandiig Mask > Rose + Kensei. The fact that Mask survived to fight renji because of healing doesn't change the fact that Renji's power level was higher than all 3 of them.
Had rose and kensei been beaten by base mask with no hax, then Renji would be 2x captain level or higher. Fighting a hax opposed to fighting someone with no hax gives two different feats. You get my point?
Do you get mine?
- The point is kenny> Renji period, no comparison in power. That's why feats were compared to prove that point. Gremmy's battle turned how it did because zaraki couldn't be imagined taken down. Kenny being a possible transcendent makes sense due to his hype and feats so far...comparing renji to kenny to prove Renji may qualify is pointless.
Renji was trained by the ROYAL GUARD. That's more hype than Kenpachi has ever gotten.
Current kenny shikai> current renji bankai, and kenny potentially has a bankai for a future upgrade. The gremmy fight was no luck, it was pure Plot-kai from kubo to show kenny off.
The luck part was that Gremmy killed himself. Had Gremmy not killed himself, Kenpachi'd be dead.
- when did byakuya off screen 5 sternritter?
Here
He was also fighting Meninas and Liltotto. So that's 5 captain level fighters at once.
To "you" he's war potential, when did Juha state byakuya as war potential?
*facedesk* I never said Byakuya was a war potential. I said that Byakuya wasn't powerful enough to be considered one while the list was being made, but he's more powerful than ever now.
And rukia can get turned into crushed ice or a slurpee by Kenny's shikai.
Do you know how absolute 0 works?
- ichigo is yet again a rare case seeing as he's a mixed breed not to be compared to normal shinigami cuz ichigo has the potential to reach power beyond them. So how can you equate Ichigo>kenny when Kenny>Renji is the topic of debate?
You were saying that being a Kenpachi implies that he's the most powerful thing ever, which is obviously not the case.
- mistranslation, mask wasn't at normal base when he beat kensei and rose. James amped him up.
.... What does translations have to do with pictures. xD Yes, that's the point, did I say something otherwise? When I said base I meant non-volstandiig. He was an amped base, but still base. Renji defeated him in 2x amped + Volstandiig.
I already said renji was higher than captain level just not speculating he's at transcendent level. Had mask beat both kensei and rose without james healing mask would've been 2x captain level before vollstandig. But, he didn't.
Wha? You actually said "Renji is barely above captain level". Mask beat them both after being amped, so that amped form could be considered 2x captain level, then he amped again. Then he went volstandiig. Then Renji curbstomped him.
- Nope! ichigo is special, better than captain and he gets swallowed by kenny's shikai till further feats or Rukia one shot with absolute 0 bankai remember? lol :p
Please quote which areas of my post you're talking about, it's hard to follow which part you're replying too.
Did you just imply that Kenpachi's shikai > Ichigo? O_o
Again, absolute 0 kills anything it touches.
-Thanks for clarifying my 2 points with Mr unsmiley too Btw sir! much appreciates it!
Now I'll clarify your post above, Shinigami are made of Reishi, not Reiatsu.
Reishi = Spiritual atoms
Reiryoku = The pool of energy that they can pull from
Reiatsu = Spiritual energy, the pressure of their Reiryoku being emitted from their body at all times.
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