Zoom vs Silver Surfer and Superman Prime

@CitizenBane: OP says to the death, not KO.

SS could do the same thing in the Astral plane.

SS without morals is a Solar system buster...just way out of Zoom's league.

@Jeronimo said:

@CitizenBane: OP says to the death, not KO.

SS could do the same thing in the Astral plane.

SS without morals is a Solar system buster...just way out of Zoom's league.

Surfer has been killed without his body being destroyed. He cannot enter the astral plane faster than Zoom can hit him. And he's not a solar system buster either. That's three for three. Congratulations.

@Jeronimo said:

@CitizenBane: OP says to the death, not KO.

SS could do the same thing in the Astral plane.

SS without morals is a Solar system buster...just way out of Zoom's league.

1. SS has been beat to death By Thanos I already posted the scan

2. Not before Zoom Bashes his face in Call me when some one with picosecond reaction cannot see SS

3. No he is not......

Oh, sure. Since this is a hypothetical battle, I can also assume that Surfer enters while blustering about being endowed by the Power Cosmic, like he inevitably does, and then gets overrun by Zolomon since he couldn't possibly imagine anyone would even contemplate going up against it. You still haven't answered or refuted my point, presumably because you can't, Surfer does not possess (by default, at least) a level of cosmic awareness necessary to pull off anything along the lines of what you described. To increase them to the levels where he could do so would require at least a certain amount of time, something he isn't going to find in a fight against a bloodlusted Zoom, for obvious reasons. Which leaves only one avenue: he does it before entering the match. Where I come from, we call that prep. Your hypothetical scenario refers to morals being off, sure, and that is the only way it conforms to the OP. There is no prep. Your hypothetical scenario is contingent on Surfer having prep time, no matter how inconsequential that period of time may be. Since there is no prep time here, your scenario is faulty from the start and then all the way through. It cannot happen. For those reasons. Thus there is no way it can even be considered viable, and thus it is irrelevant to this discussion. Why should I answer questions related to an impossible scenario? Your insistence that I answer questions related to an irrelevant scenario tells me that you have nothing else to say, and that you cannot think of a scenario where Surfer wins that doesn't fall under the constraints of the OP. I find it more than a little hilarious that you think I'm claiming "Zoom can do anything" and being fanboyish about it, when your entire argument winds down to "Surfer uses the Power Cosmic to make himself faster than Zoom", "Zoom gets dematerialized before he can react", "Zoom gets his power source removed" and similar arguments along the theme of "Surfer uses the Power Cosmic and wins". That's all your argument is. Surfer wins because he has the Power Cosmic. And since he has the Power Cosmic, he can do anything, right?. I also find it strange that you want to know how fast Zoom is at a normal rate in a match where he's not at a normal rate, and where you're already judging Surfer's performance beyond his normal level. How fast can he manipulate himself to be? Faster than a highly amped Flash (who reacts in pico and atto seconds, a range beyond Surfer's ability to react, judging from his showings) trying his best to stop him could possibly move.

@CitizenBane: Surfer has his cosmic awareness on wether its Aunt May or SA Superman, so he will know Zoom's powers before he encounters him, which wit this he would've already went intangible and increased his power level, or whatever he needs to do before he fights zoom.

@Dark Cloud™ said:

@CitizenBane said:

Oh, sure. Since this is a hypothetical battle, I can also assume that Surfer enters while blustering about being endowed by the Power Cosmic, like he inevitably does, and then gets overrun by Zolomon since he couldn't possibly imagine anyone would even contemplate going up against it. You still haven't answered or refuted my point, presumably because you can't, Surfer does not possess (by default, at least) a level of cosmic awareness necessary to pull off anything along the lines of what you described. To increase them to the levels where he could do so would require at least a certain amount of time, something he isn't going to find in a fight against a bloodlusted Zoom, for obvious reasons. Which leaves only one avenue: he does it before entering the match. Where I come from, we call that prep. Your hypothetical scenario refers to morals being off, sure, and that is the only way it conforms to the OP. There is no prep. Your hypothetical scenario is contingent on Surfer having prep time, no matter how inconsequential that period of time may be. Since there is no prep time here, your scenario is faulty from the start and then all the way through. It cannot happen. For those reasons. Thus there is no way it can even be considered viable, and thus it is irrelevant to this discussion. Why should I answer questions related to an impossible scenario? Your insistence that I answer questions related to an irrelevant scenario tells me that you have nothing else to say, and that you cannot think of a scenario where Surfer wins that doesn't fall under the constraints of the OP. I find it more than a little hilarious that you think I'm claiming "Zoom can do anything" and being fanboyish about it, when your entire argument winds down to "Surfer uses the Power Cosmic to make himself faster than Zoom", "Zoom gets dematerialized before he can react", "Zoom gets his power source removed" and similar arguments along the theme of "Surfer uses the Power Cosmic and wins". That's all your argument is. Surfer wins because he has the Power Cosmic. And since he has the Power Cosmic, he can do anything, right?. I also find it strange that you want to know how fast Zoom is at a normal rate in a match where he's not at a normal rate, and where you're already judging Surfer's performance beyond his normal level. How fast can he manipulate himself to be? Faster than a highly amped Flash (who reacts in pico and atto seconds, a range beyond Surfer's ability to react, judging from his showings) trying his best to stop him could possibly move.

1. Surfer has pride with the Power Cosmic, but I do find it humorous and over the top when he does that.
2. I've answered your question. I told you what he could do in little words.

Cosmic Senses: The Silver Surfer has certain cosmic-energy enhanced perceptions which enable him through concentration to become aware of the patterns of energy anywhere in the world These abilities allow him far-ranging vision (in space he can see people clearly over a light year away), the ability to see sub-atomic particles, superhuman hearing, the ability to detect fields, traces, and concentrations of energy and discern their nature. -- Using another form of energy to warp Zoom's ability to time manipulate or to cut him off from the source. These are facts within his ability of Cosmic Awareness. He would be able to discern what energy is needed, how much energy is needed, and learn how Zoom's powers work overall. 3. Morals off doesn't mean bloodlusted. 4. You stated Zoom doesn't need to react to anything. That implies Zoom has prep time as Zoom would already know what speed he would need to take Surfer down. My hypothetical situations is not the only faulty scenario here. I'll respond to the rest when I get back. Toodles for now.

I do not see how you think you have answered my question when you're claiming that the level of cosmic awareness that he enters a fight with is his default level. He taps into it. That is how he uses it. That is how all Heralds use it. This is hardly disputable considering every on-panel instance of Surfer using his cosmic awareness is preceded by him consciously deciding to apply it to various effects, which in itself shows it's not a default level that will be of any help here. I also don't see why a paragraph from a wiki is a suitable replacement for an argument. And again, you're winding down to "Surfer wins because the Power Cosmic can do anything". Morals off means Zoom's usual issues about wanting to make his opponent better no longer apply, and he has always killed anyone who's not of immediate concern to his plan of the hour. I stated Zoom does not have to react to anything because there was nothing in your scenario that was viable. Thus there was nothing to react to. It cuts both ways if you're assuming Surfer will conveniently know exactly what to do to beat Surfer. So yeah, there is only one faulty scenario here.

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane: Surfer has his cosmic awareness on wether its Aunt May or SA Superman, so he will know Zoom's powers before he encounters him, which wit this he would've already went intangible and increased his power level, or whatever he needs to do before he fights zoom.

Don't be ridiculous. His cosmic awareness cannot always be on considering Thanos literally sneaked up on him and beat him to death, Doom stole his powers with a machine, and Thing KO'd him with one punch. The level of awareness he's tapping into varies.

@CitizenBane said:

@Dark Cloud™ said:

@CitizenBane said:

Oh, sure. Since this is a hypothetical battle, I can also assume that Surfer enters while blustering about being endowed by the Power Cosmic, like he inevitably does, and then gets overrun by Zolomon since he couldn't possibly imagine anyone would even contemplate going up against it. You still haven't answered or refuted my point, presumably because you can't, Surfer does not possess (by default, at least) a level of cosmic awareness necessary to pull off anything along the lines of what you described. To increase them to the levels where he could do so would require at least a certain amount of time, something he isn't going to find in a fight against a bloodlusted Zoom, for obvious reasons. Which leaves only one avenue: he does it before entering the match. Where I come from, we call that prep. Your hypothetical scenario refers to morals being off, sure, and that is the only way it conforms to the OP. There is no prep. Your hypothetical scenario is contingent on Surfer having prep time, no matter how inconsequential that period of time may be. Since there is no prep time here, your scenario is faulty from the start and then all the way through. It cannot happen. For those reasons. Thus there is no way it can even be considered viable, and thus it is irrelevant to this discussion. Why should I answer questions related to an impossible scenario? Your insistence that I answer questions related to an irrelevant scenario tells me that you have nothing else to say, and that you cannot think of a scenario where Surfer wins that doesn't fall under the constraints of the OP. I find it more than a little hilarious that you think I'm claiming "Zoom can do anything" and being fanboyish about it, when your entire argument winds down to "Surfer uses the Power Cosmic to make himself faster than Zoom", "Zoom gets dematerialized before he can react", "Zoom gets his power source removed" and similar arguments along the theme of "Surfer uses the Power Cosmic and wins". That's all your argument is. Surfer wins because he has the Power Cosmic. And since he has the Power Cosmic, he can do anything, right?. I also find it strange that you want to know how fast Zoom is at a normal rate in a match where he's not at a normal rate, and where you're already judging Surfer's performance beyond his normal level. How fast can he manipulate himself to be? Faster than a highly amped Flash (who reacts in pico and atto seconds, a range beyond Surfer's ability to react, judging from his showings) trying his best to stop him could possibly move.

1. Surfer has pride with the Power Cosmic, but I do find it humorous and over the top when he does that.
2. I've answered your question. I told you what he could do in little words.

Cosmic Senses: The Silver Surfer has certain cosmic-energy enhanced perceptions which enable him through concentration to become aware of the patterns of energy anywhere in the world These abilities allow him far-ranging vision (in space he can see people clearly over a light year away), the ability to see sub-atomic particles, superhuman hearing, the ability to detect fields, traces, and concentrations of energy and discern their nature. -- Using another form of energy to warp Zoom's ability to time manipulate or to cut him off from the source. These are facts within his ability of Cosmic Awareness. He would be able to discern what energy is needed, how much energy is needed, and learn how Zoom's powers work overall. 3. Morals off doesn't mean bloodlusted. 4. You stated Zoom doesn't need to react to anything. That implies Zoom has prep time as Zoom would already know what speed he would need to take Surfer down. My hypothetical situations is not the only faulty scenario here. I'll respond to the rest when I get back. Toodles for now.

I do not see how you think you have answered my question when you're claiming that the level of cosmic awareness that he enters a fight with is his default level. He taps into it. That is how he uses it. That is how all Heralds use it. This is hardly disputable considering every on-panel instance of Surfer using his cosmic awareness is preceded by him consciously deciding to apply it to various effects, which in itself shows it's not a default level that will be of any help here. I also don't see why a paragraph from a wiki is a suitable replacement for an argument. And again, you're winding down to "Surfer wins because the Power Cosmic can do anything". Morals off means Zoom's usual issues about wanting to make his opponent better no longer apply, and he has always killed anyone who's not of immediate concern to his plan of the hour. I stated Zoom does not have to react to anything because there was nothing in your scenario that was viable. Thus there was nothing to react to. It cuts both ways if you're assuming Surfer will conveniently know exactly what to do to beat Surfer. So yeah, there is only one faulty scenario here.

Zoom really rarely has morals, as for any villain.

SS would have recovered from being KO'd - Thanos had to use energy amped punches and an energy blast to "kill" off SS. Zoom does not have that capacity. Thanos is literally a god and was the avatar of Death.

BTW, SS could easily put black holes in stars and vaporize planets with blasts. That qualifies as a Solar system buster. What is Zoom gonna do to absorb a planet busting blast? Try to run faster than anyone else can?

@Jeronimo said:

SS would have recovered - Thanos had to use an energy blast to "kill" off SS. Zoom does not have that capacity. Thanos is literally a god and was the avatar of Death.

BTW, SS could easily put black holes in stars and vaporize planets with blasts. That qualifies as a Solar system buster. What is Zoom gonna do to absorb a planet busting blast? Try to run faster than anyone else can?

Thanos did not use any energy to kill Surfer. He used his bare hands. And he was not the avatar of Death wne he did so. Destroying planets does not qualify as a solar system buster. Are you serious? Zoom does not need to absorb anything considering Surfer cannot attack before he does.

@CitizenBane said:

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane: Surfer has his cosmic awareness on wether its Aunt May or SA Superman, so he will know Zoom's powers before he encounters him, which wit this he would've already went intangible and increased his power level, or whatever he needs to do before he fights zoom.

Don't be ridiculous. His cosmic awareness cannot always be on considering Thanos literally sneaked up on him and beat him to death, Doom stole his powers with a machine, and Thing KO'd him with one punch. The level of awareness he's tapping into varies.

THAT IS ALL PIS(except for the Thanos one). Unless Doom had prep, he would've got destroyed, and Thing can't even take down Hulk, who surfer would murder.

@Jeronimo said:

SS would have recovered - Thanos had to use an energy blast to "kill" off SS. Zoom does not have that capacity. Thanos is literally a god and was the avatar of Death.

BTW, SS could easily put black holes in stars and vaporize planets with blasts. That qualifies as a Solar system buster. What is Zoom gonna do to absorb a planet busting blast? Try to run faster than anyone else can?

Where did Thanos blast him? he was bringing him back form the did not blasting him.....

@CitizenBane: I don't see how you can use physical force to kill a herald.

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane: Surfer has his cosmic awareness on wether its Aunt May or SA Superman, so he will know Zoom's powers before he encounters him, which wit this he would've already went intangible and increased his power level, or whatever he needs to do before he fights zoom.

Don't be ridiculous. His cosmic awareness cannot always be on considering Thanos literally sneaked up on him and beat him to death, Doom stole his powers with a machine, and Thing KO'd him with one punch. The level of awareness he's tapping into varies.

THAT IS ALL PIS(except for the Thanos one). Unless Doom had prep, he would've got destroyed, and Thing can't even take down Hulk, who surfer would murder.

Doom did have prep, and Surfer just flew straight into his trap despite this deal breaking cosmic awareness that he supposedly always has on. Thing KO'ing Surfer is PIS as far as his durability goes, it does not excuse the fact that he did not see it coming despite aforementioned cosmic awareness.

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane: I don't see how you can use physical force to kill a herald.

......and why not? Because they're heralds, and thus somehow immune to physical force?

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane: I don't see how you can use physical force to kill a herald.

Why would you make a thread if you already know who wins?

@CitizenBane said:

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane: I don't see how you can use physical force to kill a herald.

......and why not? Because they're heralds, and thus somehow immune to physical force?

Yup... you can't kill heralds using physical force... but you could beat them to a bloody pulp.

@CitizenBane: If you actually look at the panels of SS and Thanos you'll see that Thanos' fists are surrounded by energy indicating energy amped blows. Again, Zoom is far from this capacity. And you tell me, what's the last panel showing??? Energy!

@Jeronimo said:

@CitizenBane: If you actually look at the panels of SS and Thanos you'll see that Thanos' fists are surrounded by energy indicating energy amped blows. Again, Zoom is far from this capacity. And you tell me, what's the last panel showing??? Energy!

.....seriously? That's what you're going with? Thanos' hands shining? Zeus had lightning coming out of his hands while he was beating the crap out of Hulk. Does not change the fact that he used nothing other than physical force to crush him. Have you even read the story?

@Jeronimo said:

@CitizenBane: If you actually look at the panels of SS and Thanos you'll see that Thanos' fists are surrounded by energy indicating energy amped blows. Again, Zoom is far from this capacity. And you tell me, what's the last panel showing??? Energy!

That didn't symbolize Thanos giving out energy blasts. And even if energy was coming out of his hands then he still used physical force to smack Surfer.

@CitizenBane: Are you gonna sit there and tell me the panels are lying? Multiple panels show the same thing.

I say they bust the planet and Zoom dies. I don't think Zoom can speed blitz them with enough time.

@Jeronimo said:

@CitizenBane: Are you gonna sit there and tell me the panels are lying? Multiple panels show the same thing.

The panels are not lying, you're simply reading into something that isn't there. Because you want it to be there. By your logic, Zeus used lightning to crush Hulk. He did not. Clearly. But his hands were emitting energy! Surely that means he was amping himself! Give me a break.

@ReVamp said:

I say they bust the planet and Zoom dies. I don't think Zoom can speed blitz them with enough time.

I don't see why he can't, considering neither one of them has ever displayed reaction time in his range.

Here it is again, in case you weren't paying attention:

@Jeronimo said:

@CitizenBane: OP says to the death, not KO.

SS could do the same thing in the Astral plane.

SS without morals is a Solar system buster...just way out of Zoom's league.

It took energy amped blows to KO SS. Had Thanos stopped, SS would have naturally recovered. Again, the last panel shows Thanos using energy to finish off Norrin. Zoom does not have this ability.

@Jeronimo said:

Here it is again, in case you weren't paying attention:

@Jeronimo said:

@CitizenBane: OP says to the death, not KO.

SS could do the same thing in the Astral plane.

SS without morals is a Solar system buster...just way out of Zoom's league.

It took energy amped blows to KO SS. Had Thanos stopped, SS would have naturally recovered. Again, the last panel shows Thanos using energy to finish off Norrin. Zoom does not have this ability.

And this is proof that you haven't read the story. Thanos did not use energy to finish off Norrin in the last panel. He was already dead. In the last panel, he teleports into Death's realm. If you haven't read the story in which the feat occurs, why are you attempting to debate the feat?

@Jeronimo: The last panel showed that THANOS WAS TELEPORTING WITH SILVER SURFER and not finishing him off. So what if energy is coming out from Thanos' hands? I could post a lot of pics showing that Hulk has energy based powers according to your statement because he has gamma radiation coming out from his hands. Again, Thanos didn't use energy against Surfer... his hands just glowed with energy nothing more nothing less and even if he did, he still used physical force to beat him.

His hands emitted energy for the first two panels. Then he doesn't anymore.

@CitizenBane said:

@ReVamp said:

I say they bust the planet and Zoom dies. I don't think Zoom can speed blitz them with enough time.

I don't see why he can't, considering neither one of them has ever displayed reaction time in his range.

What's the hardest Zoom's hit someone?

What's the fastest he's ran in a fight?

@ReVamp said:

His hands emitted energy for the first two panels. Then he doesn't anymore.

@CitizenBane said:

@ReVamp said:

I say they bust the planet and Zoom dies. I don't think Zoom can speed blitz them with enough time.

I don't see why he can't, considering neither one of them has ever displayed reaction time in his range.

What's the hardest Zoom's hit someone?

What's the fastest he's ran in a fight?

Kicked Wonder Woman from Keystone to Paris to Egypt to China to Themyscira.

Covered every inch of the globe in under a second.

Both were with regular morals and Zoom not wanting to kill his opponent.

@CitizenBane said:

@ReVamp said:

His hands emitted energy for the first two panels. Then he doesn't anymore.

@CitizenBane said:

@ReVamp said:

I say they bust the planet and Zoom dies. I don't think Zoom can speed blitz them with enough time.

I don't see why he can't, considering neither one of them has ever displayed reaction time in his range.

What's the hardest Zoom's hit someone?

What's the fastest he's ran in a fight?

Kicked Wonder Woman from Keystone to Paris to Egypt to China to Themyscira.

Covered every inch of the globe in under a second.

Both were with regular morals and Zoom not wanting to kill his opponent.

The first one doesn't impress me, but the second one is... Yeah, he wins.

It's been a while, thanks for the clarification. But the point still stands: You can clearly see Thanos' hands glowing with energy indicating the blows were amped by energy. The last panel of Thanos' fist on the first page clearly shows it glowing with power from energy. Once again, Zoom cannot copy this feat with his powerset.

@Jeronimo said:

It's been a while, thanks for the clarification. But the point still stands: You can clearly see Thanos' hands glowing with energy indicating the blows were amped by energy. The last panel of Thanos' fist on the first page clearly shows it glowing with power from energy. Once again, Zoom cannot copy this feat with his powerset.

I like how you just continually ignore the fact that several character's fists glow with power even when they're just using brute force. Thor, Zeus, Hulk, Darkseid, and plenty of others all have instances like that. It proves nothing.

You're ignoring what the artwork clearly shows. Does it not reflect the intent of the writer and artist? And Thanos is well known to use energy based attacks against SS to boot. Why would he do it if he didn't have to?

@CitizenBane: You repeatedly ignore the fact people use in superman vs hulk thread, how is he gonna harm him if he is in the air. Same goes here.

@Jeronimo said:

You're ignoring what the artwork clearly shows. Does it not reflect the intent of the writer and artist? And Thanos is well known to use energy based attacks against SS to boot. Why would he do it if he didn't have to?

No more than Hulk smashing things supposedly reflects the artist' intent that he was employing gamma radiation simply because his hands glow on occasion when it is clear to even the dullest observer that it is meant to be brute force. That is indisputable, as is the fact that Zeus used brute force to destroy Hulk despite the supposed artist's intent (according to you) that he was using lightning. No one disputes that Zeus used anything other than brute force. If you're hanging your argument on artwork it's not much of an argument to begin with. Why would Thanos use energy attacks at close range, in an environment whose destruction he would certainly prefer to avoid (it was his lab)? Brute force suits the purpose better.

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane: You repeatedly ignore the fact people use in superman vs hulk thread, how is he gonna harm him if he is in the air. Same goes here.

Why do you keep bringing up points that were addressed pages ago? I refuse to reply to this. You have raised this point at least twice already and it was addressed both times. Go back and take a look.

@CitizenBane said:

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane: You repeatedly ignore the fact people use in superman vs hulk thread, how is he gonna harm him if he is in the air. Same goes here.

Why do you keep bringing up points that were addressed pages ago? I refuse to reply to this. You have raised this point at least twice already and it was addressed both times. Go back and take a look.

But you keep ignoring the fact it's true, that Zoom can't possibly injure him this way. But no, you keep discussing it.

@CitizenBane: The difference is that Thanos uses enegry attacks on SS all the time. It is completely in character and predictable. There is artistic wiggle room and then there are known fighting patterns through many comics and by many different artists with Thanos and other specific individuals, particularly SS. The fights are all similar in nature and invlove energy of some sort.

Why on Earth do people ever place Prime above sky fathers or even close to Surfer? Superman prime isnt Kal Kent nor is he Prime 1million. And before any of you get confused any further, Prime in "Superman Prime 1 million is in regards to the fact that its the original superman" (got this from DC 1 million comic when Kal kent told Kal-El that he is the original blah blah dynasty blah blah"

And to the guy who said Thanos etc are much stronger than supes because they can lift 1 million w.e, Supermans strength is unquantifiable, in All star he effortlessly lifted over 200 quantillion tons when he was in a dying state. Dont put them in the same strength category as supes.

In this fight Prime is an absolute non factor. Zolomon punches them to infinity.

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Petey_is_Spidey said:

@CitizenBane: You repeatedly ignore the fact people use in superman vs hulk thread, how is he gonna harm him if he is in the air. Same goes here.

Why do you keep bringing up points that were addressed pages ago? I refuse to reply to this. You have raised this point at least twice already and it was addressed both times. Go back and take a look.

But you keep ignoring the fact it's true, that Zoom can't possibly injure him this way. But no, you keep discussing it.

And you keep ignoring what has already been said. Surfer moving out of range is self-BFR. I do not know how many times you have to be told this before it sinks in. It's tiresome. You obviously made this thread because you wanted Surfer to win, despite the fact that you haven't read much Surfer and even less Zoom.

@Jeronimo said:

@CitizenBane: The difference is that Thanos uses enegry attacks on SS all the time. It is completely in character and predictable. There is artistic wiggle room and then there are known fighting patterns through many comics and by many different artists with Thanos and other specific individuals, particularly SS. The fights are all similar in nature and invlove energy of some sort.

And none of those fights took place at a range that close, and none in an environment whose destruction Thanos would seek to avoid. Zeus uses energy attacks in 99% of his fights. He still opted to use his fists against Hulk. Because it was a close combat match. Go figure. Like I said, if your argument actually comes down to how artwork should be interpreted.....

According to Wiki:

Time power

As the Time Trapper, Superboy-Prime's future self has complete control over time itself. He is able to freeze it, alter it, and even separate parts of it, thereby creating his own pocket dimensions.

I don't know what Zoom has over that

...plus there's surfer

Finally, does "morals off" mean "arrogance/stupidity off"?

@CitizenBane

Lol You should really give up dude, some people are simply too far gone. I mean this thread is full of people who believe that either one can easily solo Zoom. And Prime of all people.. Bajezuz

@m0ntyb0y said:

According to Wiki:

Time power

As the Time Trapper, Superboy-Prime's future self has complete control over time itself. He is able to freeze it, alter it, and even separate parts of it, thereby creating his own pocket dimensions.

I don't know what Zoom has over that

...plus there's surfer

.......Prime and the Time Trapper are not the same being as far as the battle forums are concerned. This is like saying any adult version of Iron Lad should win because at least one version is Kang the Conqueror.

......And seriously, a wiki?

@m0ntyb0y said:

According to Wiki:

Time power

As the Time Trapper, Superboy-Prime's future self has complete control over time itself. He is able to freeze it, alter it, and even separate parts of it, thereby creating his own pocket dimensions.

I don't know what Zoom has over that

...plus there's surfer

In which occasion has Superboy prime ever stopped time? Something thats atleast cannon. Not disputing it, just simply wondering if i missed it.

I do not see how you think you have answered my question when you're claiming that the level of cosmic awareness that he enters a fight with is his default level. He taps into it. That is how he uses it. That is how all Heralds use it. This is hardly disputable considering every on-panel instance of Surfer using his cosmic awareness is preceded by him consciously deciding to apply it to various effects, which in itself shows it's not a default level that will be of any help here. I also don't see why a paragraph from a wiki is a suitable replacement for an argument. And again, you're winding down to "Surfer wins because the Power Cosmic can do anything". Morals off means Zoom's usual issues about wanting to make his opponent better no longer apply, and he has always killed anyone who's not of immediate concern to his plan of the hour. I stated Zoom does not have to react to anything because there was nothing in your scenario that was viable. Thus there was nothing to react to. It cuts both ways if you're assuming Surfer will conveniently know exactly what to do to beat Surfer. So yeah, there is only one faulty scenario here.

Kicked Wonder Woman from Keystone to Paris to Egypt to China to Themyscira.

 
Covered every inch of the globe in under a second.

Both were with regular morals and Zoom not wanting to kill his opponent.

@Dark Cloud™ said:

@CitizenBane said:

I do not see how you think you have answered my question when you're claiming that the level of cosmic awareness that he enters a fight with is his default level. He taps into it. That is how he uses it. That is how all Heralds use it. This is hardly disputable considering every on-panel instance of Surfer using his cosmic awareness is preceded by him consciously deciding to apply it to various effects, which in itself shows it's not a default level that will be of any help here. I also don't see why a paragraph from a wiki is a suitable replacement for an argument. And again, you're winding down to "Surfer wins because the Power Cosmic can do anything". Morals off means Zoom's usual issues about wanting to make his opponent better no longer apply, and he has always killed anyone who's not of immediate concern to his plan of the hour. I stated Zoom does not have to react to anything because there was nothing in your scenario that was viable. Thus there was nothing to react to. It cuts both ways if you're assuming Surfer will conveniently know exactly what to do to beat Surfer. So yeah, there is only one faulty scenario here.

I have answered your question by stating what he could do with the Power Cosmic, as what he can do with the Power Cosmic is within the confines of the... Power Cosmic. I'm getting repetitive here. That's answering your question, as I've also provided a small layout of the Cosmic Awareness. And, the Cosmic Awareness doesn't have levels. By default, it is what it is as it enables certain abilities. There is no such thing as levels with a Cosmic Awareness. And, I never said anything about Surfer entering battle with Cosmic Awareness activated by default. I stated that for my hypothetical battle, what if Surfer came into battle with it already activated. Then you went on to say that if he did, it would imply he had prep time. I know how Cosmic Awareness works. Where I grabbed that doesn't matter. What it incorporates is what I'm trying to get across from you. Cosmic Awareness is a single ability that enacts several sub-abilities. Sub-abilities are things such as scanning an opponent and finding out a weak point, detecting certain waves of energy from beings and objects, etc. However, as I mentioned before, I asked you questions that related to my wanting to understand where you sit on Zoom's defense. I've asked you about four times now, and you've done your best to ignore them and to change the subject, showing me that a) you can't answer them and b) you don't know. If that's not clear enough for anyone to get, then I am truly surprised by the lack of knowledge. Twisting my own words and using them against me is another form of ignorance. Zoom with morals off or killing someone has nothing to do with being bloodlusted. You stated that Zoom doesn't have to react to anything, with no detailed explanation as to why. It took several posts later for you to say why you said that. Unfortunately, I now feel that you've half-assed your defense for Zoom to protect whatever respect Zoom had a character, just so he would win in this battle. The speed to which Surfer conveniently knows exactly what to do is based on the writer of the comic, but that's debatable even though the speed of Surfer's Cosmic Awareness has always been rapid. And I repeat, stating that Zoom enters battle at a speed greater than Surfer is stating that Zoom has prep time. Whichever way you want to go about that, you're going to find yourself hitting an impassible wall.

It may or may not be within the confines of the Power Cosmic but it is still subject to the constraints of the match, an issue that you continually try to dodge despite the fact that your assumption just flies in the face of everything that has ever been said about cosmic awareness and how it is utilized. Cosmic awareness does have levels. I cannot for the life of me understand how that can be disputed. It is ridiculous to think otherwise, and if that is really the cornerstone of your rebuttal there's not much of a rebuttal to speak of. Ask Genis-Vell. He has cosmic awareness too. Just like any Herald. He splits it up into levels. One level makes him Photon/Captain Mar-Vell, another level drives him completely insane and turns him into his Mad God version. I could offer more examples of cosmic awareness having levels (by basically dredging up every instance of Surfer and his fellow heralds needing to consciously tap into their cosmic awareness, which in itself shows it has increasing levels), but there's not much to debate about it. It's a worthless point. Surfer's cosmic awareness is activated by default, sure, but it is in no way already active to the stage where he can perform what you're describing. He did something similar to discover Gladiator's radiation weakness, was that automatic? You assume that Surfer's cosmic awareness is perpetually on at a level that it's not, and it's hardly the most invisible or ubiquitous of plot devices.

I still remain in the dark as to why you expect a response to something that does not deserve a response. You have created a scenario that is not possible under the current set of rules. I have pointed out that in a discussion subject to the current set of rules, your scenario is irrelevant. Thus there is no point in whether or not I can/should/feel like responding to it. And then, in order to justify an irrelevant scenario, you completely ignore countless instances of how cosmic awareness has been shown to work throughout decades. I mean, come on. Cry all you like about how my refusal to form a rebuttal to a pointless scenario exposes some grave lack of knowledge. Still doesn't change the fact that your scenario either disagrees with the OP or with the on-panel instances of cosmic awareness, and evidently it is beyond your capabilities to create a viable scenario where Surfer wins that doesn't violate any of these conditions and/or pretend that something works differently from how it actually does. Now that is something I'd actually respond to. I don't expect to see it anytime soon, though.

I'm going to repeat this one last time, because I cannot for the life of me understand what is so hard to grasp: I stated Zoom didn't need to react to anything in response to a scenario you proposed that evidently wasn't going to happen. That is all. Why is this being brought up when it's the most insignificant point on display? Beats me. I've felt from the start you're just half-assing Surfer's defense by dividing it into two sub-areas, one where Surfer wins "because Power Cosmic", since that is essentially the only point you have; and another where Surfer can beat Zoom because of complete and total ignorance as to how something works. I'm not sure how much you've read about Zoom. I doubt it's much. If you need some clarification as to how fast he moves by default, he should ordinarily already be moving much faster than Flash. Wally's default speed (the one he usually operates with) sees everyone else simply slowed down considerably compared to how he moves (an example of this would be when he searched a crowd to find a bullet fired by Plunder). Zoom's default speed sees everyone completely frozen, period, and that was when he didn't even know he had powers. He always enters a significant fight at a speed beyond Flash's. It's in character for him. All his fights in Blitz against Wally and Jay, he entered it faster than them. His fight against Flash and Wonder Woman, he was faster than them. His fights in Rogue War, he entered faster than Wally, Jay and Bart. Even his single issue appearance in JSA, the one people who haven't read like to claim is proof that he's not as unbeatable as everyone seems to think, he entered that fight faster than Jay and Jesse. He habitually enters fights with the intention of moving beyond his opponent's capabilities to keep up. It's not really a stretch of the imagination to say he'd do so here. It's more than a stretch for Surfer's cosmic awareness to operate at the levels you're describing by default.

When did Surfer cover every inch of the globe in under a second? And I doubt he did so while in a combat situation, holding back and fighting a highly amped opponent with superspeed of his own.

good god i can't believe i've missed 8 pages of this... anyways, lets see here,

@m0ntyb0y said:

According to Wiki:

Time power

As the Time Trapper, Superboy-Prime's future self has complete control over time itself. He is able to freeze it, alter it, and even separate parts of it, thereby creating his own pocket dimensions.

I don't know what Zoom has over that

...plus there's surfer

Finally, does "morals off" mean "arrogance/stupidity off"?

So? even if that was a usable feat, it wouldn't help any. he's completely removed form the time stream.

@Dark Cloud™: you seem to not be grasping the battle scenario rules, or Zoom as a character and Power level in comparison to Surfer's.

Surfer can do damage at range. Logically, it's not BFR if Surfer is still attacking his target despite the target not being able to reciprocate. Surfer's vision and cosmic power are such that he can strike an enemy on earth from outside of earth's atmosphere if he so chooses.

And Surfer has covered every inch of the earth in seconds. I know I have the scan somewhere if someone's really interested.

If Surfer uses all his abilities, he should win this. Even if Zoom gets off the first volley (which he would), Surfer is fast enough, durable enough and powerful enough to get clear before being put down.

Tough fight to call. The question is, does Zoom put Surfer away within a fraction of a second? If not, this battle is not as clear cut as some may think.

I'll try an analogy. Cloud casts Haste on himself during battle to make himself as fast as an auto-hasted Squall.

Squall already has haste and Cloud just wasted time assuming that Cloud is still alive to cast haste on himself.

I feel sorry for CitizenBane because he's owning the pro-Surfer side with actual examples from the comics but no one seems to understand.

Zoom is so fast Superman by comparison is a statue. Amped up Wally passed a bunch of his fellow superheroes when he was fighting Zoom and they literally covered every square inch of Earth in less than a second.

If (and it's a big if) Surfer takes to the skies, Zoom snaps his fingers or screams. Have you guys even read "Blitz?!"

As far as Superboy-Prime, he's terrified of Bart Allen. Bart could've made him roadkill if he was a killer.

Zoom wins. Oh, and LOL at the ignorance of the Thanos/Surfer scan. Thanos killed Surfer in seven hits.