Zonakin Runs a Vader Gauntlet

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Poll Zonakin Runs a Vader Gauntlet (22 votes)

ROTS Suited Vader 0%
LOTS Vader 9%
OWK Vader 5%
Rebels Vader 9%
ANH Vader 0%
ESB Vader 23%
ROTJ Vader 5%
Clears 45%
Results 5%

Hopefully, it’s common knowledge by now that I think the Zonakin that no-diffed Dooku is the absolute strongest iteration of Anakin/Vader we see outside of Mortis Anakin, but I’m curious as to what everyone else thinks. So, here is a gauntlet.

Fight takes place on the Invisible Hand. Full rest and healing after each round. starts ten feet apart.

I usually don’t vote on my own thread, but I’m making an exception this time because Zonakin clears. This is the Chosen One at work, and he slaps every other iteration of himself.

Anyway, where does he stop?

 • 
Avatar image for nassergrant19
nassergrant19

29964

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

Stops at ESB-ROTJ

Avatar image for buildhare
buildhare

11590

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Clears, any version of Anakin tapping into oneness/his potential whatever, beats Vader with negative difficulty.

Avatar image for maulsmacker
MaulSmacker

7545

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

ESB and ROTJ win for sure.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40343

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#5  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

common knowledge by now that I think the Zonakin that no-diffed Dooku is the absolute strongest iteration of Anakin/Vader we see outside of Mortis Anakin,

You keep pushing this idea that the Zonakin who beat Dooku is somehow > KFV and its completely baseless. There’s literally zero evidenceanywhere to support it. There is zero indication from Lucas, Gillard, the canon junior novel or any other canon source that Zonakin is > KFV. It’s just Anakin with the dark side. There’s zero distinction made. In fact, KFV is likely a bit better because he’s fully immersed into the dark side and stated to have gained new power. Even the senior novel doesn’t support your idea (Hidalgo very recently said it’s not canon though, so it’s irrelevant).

Again, zero evidence that Zonakin is > KFV. KFV vs Dooku goes the exact same way as Zonakin did him in.

Probably stops at ROTJ.

Avatar image for greysentinel365
Greysentinel365

12585

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#6  Edited By Greysentinel365
Avatar image for mr-yes
mr-yes

5020

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Clears.

Avatar image for primejedi
PrimeJedi

670

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I think he stops at ESB Vader. Star Wars has a heavy emphasis on skill and focus over raw power, to the point that raw power usually only wins when the difference is massive, like in Zonakin vs Dooku.

I could still maybe give the edge to Anakin over ANH Vader, but it's made clear that by the time Vader realizes who Luke is and is chasing him down, he had shaken off a decades long depression, and had been motivated for the first time in a long time. Couple that with two decades of gaining knowledge and experience in the deepest depths of the galaxy, his prior experience of fighting sith and now fighting scores of different jedi throughout the galaxy, I think Vader takes it in dueling skill, force ability, stamina, endurance, and can use dun moch to throw anakin off (his knowledge of anakin's life makes this much more effective than Dooku's utilization).

I am a massive Anakin fan but can not put him past ESB Vader, who was the benchmark for power until you get to Sidious.

Avatar image for dippy
Dippy

68

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Probably clears.

Avatar image for dark_globe
dark_globe

1289

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#10  Edited By dark_globe

he clears
zonakin and KFV are the best versions of anakin/vader we have ever seen
these are the only two versions of him that
come even remotely close to tapping into his chosen one potential in raw power
(outside of mortis and WBW of course) .

the fact prime vader lost to rage amped RoTJ luke who by all logic
should be below zonakin does not help his case either .

Avatar image for thecloudatlas
TheCloudAtlas

244

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11  Edited By TheCloudAtlas

Hopefully, it’s common knowledge by now that I think the Zonakin that no-diffed Dooku is the absolute strongest iteration of Anakin/Vader we see outside of Mortis Anakin, but I’m curious as to what everyone else thinks. So, here is a gauntlet.

This is nothing but unsupported headcanon.

Anakin is simply using the dark side. He is not in some super special one time state:

Beyond that, it would be merely a matter of spinning Skywalker up into enough of a frenzy to break through his Jedi restraint and reveal the infinite vista of Sith power.”

Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

"I was there when you executed Count Dooku. And I know where you got the power to defeat him."

– Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

Rage poured through him. This was the man who had belittled him, who had kidnapped Palpatine and nearly killed Obi-Wan, who had cut off Anakin’s hand and tried to have Padmé put to death. Anakin used his anger the way he normally used the Force, letting it guide his lightsaber. Faster and faster he moved, and then his lightsaber came down and severed Count Dooku’s hands.

RotS junior novelisation

The novelisation goes out of his way to tell us that Anakin is growing past tapping into he dark side.

He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his “Master” already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis’s discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden … transformation. A fatal transformation." – Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

Not to mention the other billion sources noting that Anakin grows stronger and is at his peak on mustafar. Part of that is the RotS VG which has heavy gillard involvement and was greenlit by Lucas to be as "authentic as the movie":

No Caption Provided

Justin Lambros: The sequences at the end of the game once Anakin has fully realized his dark side power -- that's when the player's going to have the widest array of movements and the most dynamic combo attacks and Force powers. Those will really be some of the most spectacular lightsaber combat we've ever seen in a game, and that's what I'm really excited to see. Even expanding upon what we see in the film as we see him turn dark and sinister, we're going to take that and we're going to really run with it. And really make you understand why Darth Vader is this icon, this villain, this man who has helped control the galaxy.

Interviewer: “That’s an awesome way to spin it and I completely see what you are saying because you know technically he should have been better than Obi but because he was a little whacked out on some heroin he couldn’t focus his full potential, right?”

Gillard: “OHHH his full potential is bubbling out of him."

No Caption Provided

We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless; if they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end. First, I want you to go to the Jedi Temple. We will catch them off balance. Do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme.

- RotS Movie

My powers are growing

- ROTS Video Game

No Caption Provided

He could sense it happening, though not in detail — but he could feelthe dark side growing stronger with every Jedi death.His only regret was that he couldn’t be there in person to watch each one of them die.

-Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelisation.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Complete Locations wrote: As Anakin's soul surrendersfully to the dark side, violent Mustafar seems to mirror his turmoil.Lefrani eclipses Mustafar's sun, just as Anakin's massacre of the Separatist Council eclipses the light of the Force within him.

Then the idea that Anakin taps into the force like he never has before:

Anakin and Obi Wan fight fiercely though the control room on Mustafar. They each tap into the Force as they never have before.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith - Play and Sound Interactive Novel

An epic duel made impossible by time. The fully grown Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker crosses lightsabers with Anakin Skywalker before his brutal defeat on Mustafar. Both Skywalkers are at the peak of their powers.

--Star Wars Head-To-Head

The narrative of the movie is also that if Anakin can kill Dooku, he is ready to become Sheevs apprentice. It makes 0 sense that he would be weaker afterwards:

No Caption Provided

”The end of the war is near General.”

“But the loss of Count Dooku…” “

His death was a necessary loss. Soon I will have a new apprentice, one far younger, and more powerful.”

- RotS

No Caption Provided

"Anakin had the power and was reay to use it."

"Zonakin" clears, but loses to KF and MFV

Avatar image for supreme101
Supreme101

7937

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

Anakin

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

common knowledge by now that I think the Zonakin that no-diffed Dooku is the absolute strongest iteration of Anakin/Vader we see outside of Mortis Anakin,

Even the senior novel doesn’t support your idea (Hidalgo very recently said it’s not canon though, so it’s irrelevant).

Without the senior novel, my position on Zonakin isn’t valid, but without the senior novel, Anakin doesn’t no-diff Dooku. He just beats him, and the movie makes it seem like Dooku wasn’t trying to kill Anakin.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40343

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#14 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

The senior novel doesn’t even have Zonakin as > KFV. The author literally does not hold this position. Lucas himself states that Anakin killing Dooku is a test, which he has to genuinely pass. This is backed up by Stover’s other legends novel RoDV. The author thinks Mustafar Vader > Yoda and is on record for saying that.

So zero evidence that Zonakin is some kind of oneness that is > KFV. Its basically just the same as KFV, but most likely slightly below according to every source (including the senior novel author).

Avatar image for thecloudatlas
TheCloudAtlas

244

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15  Edited By TheCloudAtlas

@lightordark: Your position is not valid either way.

and btw, Stover suggests that Kenobi is the only person who can even stand up to Anakin as of RotS in general. The idea that Zonakin is massivly>>>KFV is dumb. KFV and MFV have the same mindset and are more powerful.

"You also see him grow into, by RotS, the only person who could have stood up against Anakin. In my opinion and I don't think there would be many people who would argue with me, at least not people whose opinion I respect... Obi-Wan is the only person who could have beaten Anakin. That was it. And you see him by the end.. you can see where the alec Guinness version of the character is coming from." https://www.starwarsreport.com/2021/04/07/revenge-of-the-sith-novel-w-matthew-stover-twl-420/ 01:09:49

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By LightorDark

@frozen: @thecloudatlas: Alright, I am going to lay out my case for my line of reasoning. My only request is that you view my analysis objectively because I doubt my case will sway you. It comes from the passage below.

No Caption Provided

"a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy."

What this passage does is makes it absolutely clear that Anakin's Jedi restraint is gone. He has given into the dark side and is now using it. Fury is his weapon, and his fury is so powerful that his lightsaber is compared to a toy, meaning it is fitting for a child compared to what Anakin has become. The effect that this has and the level of power that Anakin has obtained is made abundantly clear.

"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless...all the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life--are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the axe."

Anakin has become so powerful in this moment that Dooku's experience, the experience of a man who worried Sidious, fought Yoda and lived to tell the tale, trained for decades to become a Jedi master, had a decade of Sith knowledge and training, and overpowered Obi Wan while fighting Anakin, is irrelevant. The word irrelevant is what suggests Anakin received more than a mere boost in power. The two had just fought evenly, and Dooku had just fought Anakin and Obi Wan.

But combat experience doesn't equal skill, but that is put to bed by the next sentence. Dooku was a "master of swordplay," which is backed by his many duels. It's not just a statement. However, Anakin's state has made Dooku's mastery with a lightsaber useless. Again, the word choice suggests that Anakin did not receive a small bump in power, especially since they were fighting equally moments earlier.

That isn't all, though. Anakin's power has had an indirect effect on Dooku, which is shown in the last sentence. Everything Dooku has done in his life, everything he has worked toward and mastered is now weighing him down. Now Dooku understands what's happened to Anakin. It's stated earlier that he could sense Anakin's furnace heart. This suggests heavily that Dooku understands how powerful Anakin is in this moment. That the possibility of him winning, escaping with his life are essentially zero, and his accomplishments are weighing him down, which is supported in the following paragraph when Stover states, "It is this knowledge that shows him his death, and makes him handle it." Dooku understands what's going to happen and understands Anakin's level of power in this moment.

"Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."

The placement of this sentence suggests a heavy emphasis. Stover places it as a new paragraph, instead of continuing the last one because it's meant to stand alone. Anakin is so powerful in this moment that Dooku's decades of learning about the Light side and Dark side of the Force are laughable. Again, this suggests heavily that Anakin is tapping into his Chosen One power. This thought is furthered in the next quote.

"Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper to him that Dooku has beaten him before...how Dooku could strike down even Obi Wan himself seemingly without effort. Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith...But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all of his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame."

Anakin believes that Dooku was powerful enough to strike down Obi Wan effortlessly, and he understands that Dooku has beaten him before. Anakin's conflict brings him back down for a moment. His doubt tries to seal his power, but Anakin realizes something in this moment. Anakin realizes the fight is not just about him and Dooku. He is fighting for people he loves, not just himself. Obi Wan has a moment like this in OWK while fighting Vader. It is what allows him to get out of the hole and tap into his full potential. This is what happens with Anakin.

Anakin holds nothing back and let's go. He isn't tapping into a slight rage amp. He is tapping into his full potential, his Chosen One potential--the potential that allows him to negate every single second of training that Dooku has ever gone through. Anakin is so powerful in this moment that he may as well be fighting an infant. So, this isn't a small rage bump. It is not just him tapping into the Dark side. It is Anakin tapping into his full potential. The duel then become personal, something that only occurs one other time in ROTJ.

"When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back. When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalkers gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside."

Firstly, if you don't see a glowing, floating version of Anakin in this passage, than I'd argue you've never read it closely. Anakin is drawing on personal experience to battle Dooku, proving that he has let go completely. I'd argue, yet again, that he has tapped into his Oneness. Dooku is stated to have used "all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe," and Anakin is unphased. He tosses the table fragment Dooku threw at him aside.

This supports the idea that Dooku is like an infant to Anakin now. Nothing Dooku can do will come close to threatening Anakin. As it is stated earlier, Dooku's experience, mastery, and knowledge are useless, irrelevant, and laughable. Again, this is not a mere rage bump. Anakin has tapped into his potential, eclipsing Dooku, who is incredibly powerful in his own right. And the final part, the one I say validates my entire point of view comes from eight words.

"Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell."

Anakin is indefinitely conflicted. He is conflicted as a Jedi, and he is conflicted as a Sith, but in this moment, Anakin is unconflicted. This only occurs one other time, and Anakin is killing a different Sith Lord. In the Disney Junior novel, Vader is said to remember people he loved, too, Shmi and Padme, and he became Anakin, who lifted Sidious over his head and killed him. Anakin decided then that he wouldn't allow Sidious to kill Luke, and in this moment, "in that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win.

I hold steady that if the senior novel was made canon that Anakin in this moment is the strongest he's ever been, excluding Mortis. Is it directly stated, no. Does the wording used in the novel support that Anakin is tapping his Chosen One potential, absolutely. There is no doubt. Once his mind is clear, he kills Dooku effortlessly.

Lucas line edited this novel, and he may not have outwardly stated that Anakin was at his most powerful here, but he supported it because the words were printed. As for KFV being the most powerful version, I disagree because there is not enough textual evidence to support such a theory. Order 66 is not documented thoroughly, and Anakin had a battalion of clones with him. There is also a statement from Sidious that says Anakin was not completely committed to the Dark side yet, and him executing the siege on the Jedi temple would secure it.

If you think Mustafar Anakin was the strongest, then I will point you to the fact that Obi Wan beat him and matched him in the Force. The novels even state that they are even, and Obi Wan is holding back because of his love for Anakin. Obi Wan is the one who has to let go.

I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I finally wanted to put my case out there. If you want to hold onto statements, that's fine, but a statement without support is flimsy. This passage provides clear support to the idea that Anakin received far more than a little help from the Dark side because he eclipsed Dooku.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40343

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#17 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

Yeah none of this is actually backed up by what Stover and George say, or what the novel says. Will reply to this soon.

Avatar image for eisenfauste
Eisenfauste

19587

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

bit rude innit

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40343

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#19 frozen  Moderator

bit rude innit

There’s nothing rude about stating what the canonical sources say. The novel itself along with GL, Stover etc are very firm in that KFV is not any lesser than Zonakin. There is no “oneness” Anakin against Dooku.

Avatar image for thecloudatlas
TheCloudAtlas

244

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@lightordark:

If you think Mustafar Anakin was the strongest, then I will point you to the fact that Obi Wan beat him and matched him in the Force. The novels even state that they are even, and Obi Wan is holding back because of his love for Anakin. Obi Wan is the one who has to let go.

Kenobi is the ultimate jedi in that narrative and has the force itself guiding him, which is why he is able to do what he does.

"You can't read RotS without realising that is it largely a valorisation of that character. He is literally describedby the authoras the ultimate jedi in that narrative." MS

"Obi Wan opens himself up and becomes a Window into the force." MS

"Its a... you would call it a spiritual conviction that real power comes as the result of self knowledge. It is that... when you really understand yourself you really know exactly who you are and exactly what your capabilities are... there is very little that you can not accomplish. Um and there is a... it comes from doing martial arts for 20 somewhat years um but there is a sense, of what I was trying to get to with Obi-Wan is an almost uh Zen extinction of the ego sort of thing where he is completely out of his own way there is no second thoughts or doubts or uh hesitation and that is where his power comes from... you know being completely open to the force... the force can do anything except you know... save Anakin But... but again with in saving Anakin... Obi Wans own emotions... his loyalty and devotion to this man he trained and who is the best friend he has ever had um... gets in the way. It‘s a Star Wars thing." MS

He is also potrayed and intended to be > Windu as a swordsman who is >~ Yoda in the same book.

Interviewer: If Palpatine is able to take out 3 Jedi Masters in less than 5 seconds... why is Mace different?? What makes Mace so special?

STOVER: Well Mace is popularly considered to be the greatest lightsaber artist of his generation, although he thinks - as I mention in the book- that Obi-Wan might be better and he is.

INTERVIEWER: I like that.STOVER: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: I definitely enjoyed that discussion and delving into why Obi-Wan is the only choice really to fight Grievous.

STOVER: Right.

Any "BUT OBI WAN MATCHED HIM!!!" angle does not work with Stover. At all. Esp because we know that Kenobi is the ONLY person who can stand up to Anakin in that narrative.

"You also see him grow into, by RotS, the only person who could have stood up against Anakin. In my opinion and I don't think there would be many people who would argue with me, at least not people whose opinion I respect... Obi-Wan is the only person who could have beaten Anakin. That was it. And you see him by the end.. you can see where the alec Guinness version of the character is coming from."https://www.starwarsreport.com/2021/04/07/revenge-of-the-sith-novel-w-matthew-stover-twl-420/01:09:49

It is a case of Kenobi being good, not Anakin being nerfed.

Dooku also cheats to take out Kenobi and shits himself when he fights the duo. Anakin's fear is taking over in that moment, it is not reflective of what happened. Plus kenobi only experiances the full power of the light post Dooku death.

Avatar image for eisenfauste
Eisenfauste

19587

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

No Caption Provided

"cunning prowess"

Tricking someone in a duel is standard for Dooku.

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@thecloudatlas:

Author intent is fine, but text is king. I broke down the text and laid out my case. Saying that Obi Wan was the only person who could beat Anakin is fine, but it’s not substantiated by the text.

Kenobi wasn’t strong enough to fight Sidious, meaning he wasn’t as strong as Yoda.

My post is text analysis of Anakin power based on the wording used. The text shows him completely and unequivocally eclipsing Dooku, a Sith who battled Yoda, worried Sidious, and stomped Kenobi.

Avatar image for thecloudatlas
TheCloudAtlas

244

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@eisenfauste:Dooku stright up cheats. He won't have 2 super battle droids available to land a knock out kick in any forum match.

flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze, and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat. “Guards!” he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. “Open fire!” Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets. Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi’s chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he’d broken his neck. Wouldn’t that be lovely?"

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

Yeah none of this is actually backed up by what Stover and George say, or what the novel says. Will reply to this soon.

If you’re going to argue my points, fine, but don’t do it with author intent. What Stover or George says or wants to be true doesn’t matter.

The text clearly shows Anakin eclipsing Dooku. If you want to argue that he accomplished this with a slight dark side boost, then prove it with the text.

If you don’t think it’s backed up by the novel, then I encourage you to read my post again. I used the novel, showing words and phrases used to prove my points.

Avatar image for thecloudatlas
TheCloudAtlas

244

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#25  Edited By TheCloudAtlas

@lightordark:

Author intent is fine, but text is king. I broke down the text and laid out my case. Saying that Obi Wan was the only person who could beat Anakin is fine, but it’s not substantiated by the text.

The intent is reflected in the text.

No Caption Provided

"Two is enough. Two is enough because the adults are wrong, and their younglings are right. Though this is the end of the age of heroes, it has saved its best for last."

– Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

"Their war is their life. And their life is a weapon. Say what you will about the wisdom of ancient Master Yoda, or the deadly skill of grim Mace Windu, the courage of Ki-Adi-Mundi, or the subtle wiles of Shaak Ti; the greatness of all these Jedi is unquestioned, but it pales next to the legend that has grown around Kenobi and Skywalker. They stand alone. Together, they are unstoppable. Unbeatable. They are the ultimate go-to guys of the Jedi Order. When the Good Guys absolutely, positively have to win, the call goes out. Obi-Wan and Anakin always answer. Whether Obi-Wan’s legendary cleverness might beat Anakin’s raw power, straight up, no rules, is the subject of schoolyard fistfights, crèche-pool wriggle-matches, and pod-chamber stinkwars across the Republic. These struggles always end, somehow, with the combatants on both sides admitting that it doesn’t matter. Anakin and Obi-Wan would never fight each other. They couldn’t. They’re a team. They’re the team. And both of them are sure they always will be."

– Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

"“That is so like you, Master Kenobi,” the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. “I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?” “I’m very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—” “Not a master. The master,” Mace had said. “Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you.”"

– Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

You are coping hard. It is all in the novel.

"Anakin is the chosen one, the most powerful jedi ever. But what about Obi-Wan Kenobi, I mean how does he stack up against him in your book?

MS: Obi-Wan is my favourite character. Obi-Wan has always been my favourite character and one of the really satisfying things about this book, for me was he opportunity to bring Obi-Wan up... well actually it's not me doing it I should say, but I had the opportunity to write about it, it's Mr Lucas who is doing it, it's his story, but it's his story where Obi-Wan steps up and takes his rightful place as, really one of the pivotal heroes in the Star Wars saga. He is the ultimate jedi." MS

"My post is text analysis of Anakin power based on the wording used. The text shows him completely and unequivocally eclipsing Dooku, a Sith who battled Yoda, worried Sidious, and stomped Kenobi."

Dooku cheats to take Kenobi out and kenobi experiances the full power of the light POST Dooku fight.

Kenobi wasn’t strong enough to fight Sidious, meaning he wasn’t as strong as Yoda.

Yodas word is not evidance that Kenobi can't duel Sidious in that(STOVER SPECIFIC) narrative. And we know Kenobi is, or is supposed to be, a better duellist anyway, as much as you like to deny that idea. Yoda also goes through an arc, unlike Kenobi he is not open to the force but relies on his own immense power. Kenobi is guided by the force itself and that is reflected in the text too. Even though he is unaware that he is that great.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40343

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#26 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

If you want me to use the words in the text, that’s fine. Because the text itself does not support you. Which I will explain.

Avatar image for eisenfauste
Eisenfauste

19587

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@thecloudatlas: That quote does not take away from cheating being part of his style lol. A synonym of cunning is deceit which is trickery.

Also why are you citing an example that literally DID NOT happen on screen. Dooku never kicked Kenobi down the stairs after he chops up droids. He chokes Obi-Wan and kicks Anakin . . .

Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into ablindingly fast wheel-kickthat brought his heel against the point of Kenobi’s chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower

Avatar image for thecloudatlas
TheCloudAtlas

244

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@eisenfauste:

That quote does not take away from cheating being part of his style lol. A synonym of cunning is deceit which is trickery.

We are talking about the idea that Dooku can stomp Kenobi in direct combat in that narrative. He won't have 2 super battledroids to distract and land that kick in any forum match.

Also why are you citing an example that literally DID NOT happen on screen. Dooku never kicked Kenobi down the stairs after he chops up droids. He chokes Obi-Wan and kicks Anakin . . .

Because we are talking about the novel LMFAO. The OP even admits that his position changes depending on the medium. I am discussing said medium.

Avatar image for thecloudatlas
TheCloudAtlas

244

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

Yeah none of this is actually backed up by what Stover and George say, or what the novel says. Will reply to this soon.

The text clearly shows Anakin eclipsing Dooku. If you want to argue that he accomplished this with a slight dark side boost, then prove it with the text.

Do you even read my posts?? Small dark side boost??? Come on man.

"Beyond that, it would be merely a matter of spinning Skywalker up into enough of a frenzy to break through his Jedi restraint and reveal the infinite vista of Sith power.”

- Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

"I was there when you executed Count Dooku. And I know where you got the power to defeat him(DARK SIDE HINT HINT)."

– Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

"“You will duel them,” Sidious had said. “Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage."

– LoE

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40343

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#30 frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

Right I’m going to make this as concise as possible, because no offence to you, but a lot of your paragraphs are just head canon interpretations.There’s very little evidence. You just cite a passage and say “Anakin made Dooku’s experience useless. Therefore he must be receiving some oneness moment” and proceed to cite zero evidence from lore. I’m not interested in engaging with that, but rather what the actual evidence says.

There is no “oneness” Anakin nor is the Anakin who beat Dooku “full potential Anakin”.

So let’s get into it:

What this passage does is makes it absolutely clear that Anakin's Jedi restraint is gone. He has given into the dark side and is now using it. Fury is his weapon, and his fury is so powerful that his lightsaber is compared to a toy, meaning it is fitting for a child compared to what Anakin has become. The effect that this has and the level of power that Anakin has obtained is made abundantly clear.

Right, so off the bat, the operative word which you are using to judge Zonakin as some sort of special Anakin is “fury”. Let’s keep this in mind. “Fury” is the operative word you’re hyper fixating on. The exact same word is used to describe Anakin’s power on Mustafar. In fact, it is said that Obi Wan is feeling the “full heat” of Anakin’s fury:

“Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.“

Compared to:

"a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy."

So per the same novel, Obi Wan is feeling “the full heat of his fury”. The very same descriptor you use to argue that Anakin is at his peak against Dooku. With this in mind, your argument does not stand. Moving on:

Anakin has become so powerful in this moment that Dooku's experience, the experience of a man who worried Sidious, fought Yoda and lived to tell the tale, trained for decades to become a Jedi master, had a decade of Sith knowledge and training, and overpowered Obi Wan while fighting Anakin, is irrelevant. The word irrelevant is what suggests Anakin received more than a mere boost in power. The two had just fought evenly, and Dooku had just fought Anakin and Obi Wan.

No. Anakin being far above Dooku is very much emphasised in how the novel itself completely elevates Anakin as being beyond Yoda.

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation.

The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.”

Nobody is close to him:

An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace”

Sidious will muse that Jedi Anakin’s power is beyond his own:

Still, though, Dooku had some reservations. This had all come about too quickly; had Sidious thought through all the implications of this operation? “But I must ask, my Master: is Skywalker truly the man we want?”

He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself.”

Mace regards Jedi Anakin as arguably the most powerful:

Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger”

The novel is very clearly elevating Anakin, no matter whether he’s a Jedi or with the dark side. Anakin making Dooku’s skill and experience is made irrelevant due to how powerful and insanely talented Anakin is. With the dark side, his powers are elevated beyond his Jedi state (which is > Yoda):

Darth Vader stood on the command bridge of the Mustafar control center, hand of durasteel clasping hand of flesh behind him, and gazed up through the transparisteel view wall at the galaxy he would one day rule.

He paid no attention to the litter of corpses around his feet.

He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his “Master” already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis’s discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden … transformation.” - page 555

Anakin making Dooku’s skill useless does not speak to some sort of special oneness. It’s just a testament to his vastly superior power and talent. Quite simple.

Anakin holds nothing back and let's go. He isn't tapping into a slight rage amp. He is tapping into his full potential, his Chosen One potential--the potential that allows him to negate every single second of training that Dooku has ever gone through. Anakin is so powerful in this moment that he may as well be fighting an infant. So, this isn't a small rage bump. It is not just him tapping into the Dark side. It is Anakin tapping into his full potential. The duel then become personal, something that only occurs one other time in ROTJ.

Yeah, now this is just silly. Lol. Anakin’s full potential, per the Mortis arc, is to be able to ragdoll The Ones of Mortis. He’s nowhere near his potential. If he were truly tapping into his potential in this moment, he would quite literally hand wave Dooku with minimum effort:

https://youtu.be/S67Bd1ZoA0Q?si=GUJX6eT394Nr0fW-

Loading Video...

The fact that you think Anakin has to tap into his full potential to beat Dooku is beyond me. We’ve canonically seen Anakin at his full potential, and it’s Mortis god tier. Literally thousands of times more powerful than Dooku, and that is not hyperbolic.

This supports the idea that Dooku is like an infant to Anakin now. Nothing Dooku can do will come close to threatening Anakin. As it is stated earlier, Dooku's experience, mastery, and knowledge are useless, irrelevant, and laughable. Again, this is not a mere rage bump. “

This is exactly what Anakin with the dark side can do. He can flatten fighters like Dooku

Firstly, if you don't see a glowing, floating version of Anakin in this passage, than I'd argue you've never read it closely. Anakin is drawing on personal experience to battle Dooku, proving that he has let go completely. I'd argue, yet again, that he has tapped into his Oneness

Anakin is indefinitely conflicted. He is conflicted as a Jedi, and he is conflicted as a Sith, but in this moment, Anakin is unconflicted.

Nope. The novel is very clear in equating the mental states of Zonakin, KFV and MFV:

Zonakin:

The Dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

Revenge of the Sith Novel

KFV:

He instead turned his gaze inward: he unlocked the furnace gate within his heart and stepped forth to regard with new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life. I am Darth Vader, he said within himself. The dragon tried again to whisper of failure, and weakness, and inevitable death, but with one hand the Sith Lord caught it, crushed away its voice; it tried to rise then, to coil and rear and strike, but the Sith Lord laid his other hand upon it and broke its power with a single effortless twist. I am Darth Vader, he repeated as he ground the dragon's corpse to dust beneath his mental heel, as he watched the dragon's dust and ashes scatter before the blast from his furnace heart,and you—You are nothing at all. He had become, finally, what they all called him.

MFV:

Padme? Are you here? Are you all right? "I'm very sorry, Lord Vader. I'm afraid she died. It seems in your anger, you killed her." This burns hotter than the lava had. "No... no, it is not possible!" You loved her. You will always love her. You could never will her death. Never. But you remember...You remember all of it. You remember the dragon that you brought Vader forth from your heart to slay. You remember the cold venom in Vader's blood. You remember the furnace of Vader's fury,and the black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth And there is one blazing moment in which you finally under-stand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.

Zonakin, KFV and MFV’s mental state is equated as being the exact same. No distinction is made. To further emphasise the point:

Again:

Zonakin:

Kill him,” Palpatine says. “Kill him now.” In Skywalker’s eyes he sees only flames."– Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

KFV:

"The head of the Techno Union turned at his approach, cringing, arms lifted to shield his faceplate from the flames in the dragon’s eyes.“Please, I’ll give you anything. Anything you want!”" – Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

MFV:

"He was looking past her shoulder. Feral joy burned from his eyes, and his face was no longer human. “You …” From behind her, calmly precise, with that clipped Coruscanti accent: “Padmé. Move away from him.” “Obi-Wan?” She whirled, and he was on the landing ramp, still and sad. “No!” “You,” growled a voice that should have been her love’s. “You brought him here …” She turned back, and now he was looking at her. His eyes were full of flame."– Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

Since you’re appealing to the way the passages describe Anakin, he’s very much equated as the same as KFV to Zonakin. Moving on:

This only occurs one other time, and Anakin is killing a different Sith Lord. In the Disney Junior novel, Vader is said to remember people he loved, too, Shmi and Padme, and he became Anakin, who lifted Sidious over his head and killed him. Anakin decided then that he wouldn't allow Sidious to kill Luke, and in this moment, "in that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win.

Completely different situation. You’re equating a Vader that’s motivated by love and off guard Sidious to one that’s using the dark side to kill Dooku. The situation isn’t even comparable in the slightest. Both for love vs dark side and the off guard. Moreover, the passage emphasises that Vader uses his “once venerated strength”, which is vague.

Lucas line edited this novel, and he may not have outwardly stated that Anakin was at his most powerful here, but he supported it because the words were printed.

The text of the novel, which state the following:

  • Jedi Anakin = most powerful Jedi
  • Zonakin and MFV both having “fury” (your fixation, not mine). With MFV “bringing the full heat of his fury” onto Obi Wan
  • The mental states of Zonakin, KFV and MFV being equated as the same on three separate occasions
  • Anakin’s powers directly stated to have grown with the dark sidE

Etc

As for KFV being the most powerful version, I disagree because there is not enough textual evidence to support such a theory.

It’s verbatim stated that his powers have grown and his mental state is affirmed as the same. It’s not “a theory”. It’s explicitly stated in the novel that KFV > Zonakin. Framing it as a theory is disiningenous. Moving on:

Order 66 is not documented thoroughly, and Anakin had a battalion of clones with him.

Completely irrelevant and meaningless. Anakin in the temple curbstomps Cin Drailig, who has a multitude of accolades placing him as one of the best duelists in the order. And him having clones….. so? Not relevant in the slightest

you think Mustafar Anakin was the strongest, then I will point you to the fact that Obi Wan beat him and matched him in the Force. The novels even state that they are even, and Obi Wan is holding back because of his love for Anakin. Obi Wan is the one who has to let go

The same novel which has Mustafar Anakin force blasting Obi Wan all over the place:

A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half “stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.”

Obi Wan has familiarity with his style and is constantly on the back foot.

Anyway, I’ve thoroughly explained why your arguments are from incredulity. Nowhere in the text is Zonakin > Knightfall Vader, simply because you don’t want to admit that Knightfall Vader can slam Dooku.

Avatar image for thecloudatlas
TheCloudAtlas

244

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#31  Edited By TheCloudAtlas

@frozen: Good post. However Kenobi only gets blasted and dominated pre letting go:

A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half “stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.”

"Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back,"

"Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan’s wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. “I am so sick of your lectures!” Dark power bore down with his grip. Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks. Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad."

- RotS

Post letting go Kenobi actually kind of gains the upper hand and deflects vaders pushes and matches his strength:

"With Anakin’s grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything. His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin’s thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin’s following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweepso that he could use the power of Anakin’s next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders."

"He turned Anakin’s blade aside with a two-handed block and landed a solid kick that knocked the two apart. Before Anakin could recover his balance, Obi-Wan took a running leap that became a graceful dive headlong off the crane deck."

"they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth."

- RotS

Avatar image for ieatnettles
Ieatnettles

4484

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Clears

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen said:

@lightordark:

There is no “oneness” Anakin nor is the Anakin who beat Dooku “full potential Anakin”.

I mean every CV version of Anakin is made up. I didn’t say he was full potential. It’s the strongest version outside of Mortis.

So let’s get into it:

What this passage does is makes it absolutely clear that Anakin's Jedi restraint is gone. He has given into the dark side and is now using it. Fury is his weapon, and his fury is so powerful that his lightsaber is compared to a toy, meaning it is fitting for a child compared to what Anakin has become. The effect that this has and the level of power that Anakin has obtained is made abundantly clear.

Right, so off the bat, the operative word which you are using to judge Zonakin as some sort of special Anakin is “fury”. Let’s keep this in mind. “Fury” is the operative word you’re hyper fixating on. The exact same word is used to describe Anakin’s power on Mustafar. In fact, it is said that Obi Wan is feeling the “full heat” of Anakin’s fury:

“Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.“

He threw shards of metal with the full heat of his fury. It’s clearly stated in your scan.

Compared to:

"a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy."

So per the same novel, Obi Wan is feeling “the full heat of his fury”. The very same descriptor you use to argue that Anakin is at his peak against Dooku. With this in mind, your argument does not stand.

You are incorrect. The difference is what his fury does. The your scan, he throws shards of metal. During the Dooku fight, his fury turned one of the powerful weapons in SW into a child’s plaything.

Moving on:

Anakin has become so powerful in this moment that Dooku's experience, the experience of a man who worried Sidious, fought Yoda and lived to tell the tale, trained for decades to become a Jedi master, had a decade of Sith knowledge and training, and overpowered Obi Wan while fighting Anakin, is irrelevant. The word irrelevant is what suggests Anakin received more than a mere boost in power. The two had just fought evenly, and Dooku had just fought Anakin and Obi Wan.

No. Anakin being far above Dooku is very much emphasised in how the novel itself completely elevates Anakin as being beyond Yoda.

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation.

The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.”

Nobody is close to him:

An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace”

Sidious will muse that Jedi Anakin’s power is beyond his own:

Still, though, Dooku had some reservations. This had all come about too quickly; had Sidious thought through all the implications of this operation? “But I must ask, my Master: is Skywalker truly the man we want?”

He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself.”

Mace regards Jedi Anakin as arguably the most powerful:

Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger”

The novel is very clearly elevating Anakin, no matter whether he’s a Jedi or with the dark side. Anakin making Dooku’s skill and experience is made irrelevant due to how powerful and insanely talented Anakin is. With the dark side, his powers are elevated beyond his Jedi state (which is > Yoda):

Darth Vader stood on the command bridge of the Mustafar control center, hand of durasteel clasping hand of flesh behind him, and gazed up through the transparisteel view wall at the galaxy he would one day rule.

He paid no attention to the litter of corpses around his feet.

He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his “Master” already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis’s discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden … transformation.” - page 555

The crux of all your quotes is that Anakin isn’t unstoppable or unable to be matched. Dooku matches him alongside Kenobi, and Obi Wan beats him on Mustafar. Kenobi beats him in OWK. Kenobi beats him in a PT flashback in OWK.

The statements that he is the fastest and strongest are countered by what that occurs. Obi Wan and Dooku match his speed. He does overpower Dooku, though

The blanket statements aren't substantiated. He doesn’t beat Dooku as a Jedi. He must use the Dark Side. The novel makes that clear. He doesn't beat Obi Wan, who was earlier beaten by Dooku. So all of the statements fall flat.

Anakin making Dooku’s skill useless does not speak to some sort of special oneness. It’s just a testament to his vastly superior power and talent. Quite simple.

I strongly disagree, but ai cover why this isn’t the case in my other post.

Anakin holds nothing back and let's go. He isn't tapping into a slight rage amp. He is tapping into his full potential, his Chosen One potential--the potential that allows him to negate every single second of training that Dooku has ever gone through. Anakin is so powerful in this moment that he may as well be fighting an infant. So, this isn't a small rage bump. It is not just him tapping into the Dark side. It is Anakin tapping into his full potential. The duel then become personal, something that only occurs one other time in ROTJ.

Yeah, now this is just silly. Lol. Anakin’s full potential, per the Mortis arc, is to be able to ragdoll The Ones of Mortis. He’s nowhere near his potential. If he were truly tapping into his potential in this moment, he would quite literally hand wave Dooku with minimum effort:

He does hand wave Dooku with minimum effort. I addressed this in my post. Nothing Dooku does can or will make any difference. I addressed this, too. He decides, and it happens. That is the epitome of a stomp.

https://youtu.be/S67Bd1ZoA0Q?si=GUJX6eT394Nr0fW-

Loading Video...

The fact that you think Anakin has to tap into his full potential to beat Dooku is beyond me. We’ve canonically seen Anakin at his full potential, and it’s Mortis god tier. Literally thousands of times more powerful than Dooku, and that is not hyperbolic.

I don’t think Anakin has to tap into his full potential to beat Dooku. I think he taps into his full potential and eclipses Dooku. In this moment, he is thousands of times more powerful than Dooku, which is why he ragdolls him.

This supports the idea that Dooku is like an infant to Anakin now. Nothing Dooku can do will come close to threatening Anakin. As it is stated earlier, Dooku's experience, mastery, and knowledge are useless, irrelevant, and laughable. Again, this is not a mere rage bump. “

This is exactly what Anakin with the dark side can do. He can flatten fighters like Dooku.

Nope. He didn’t flatten Obi Wan, who may not be below, but is definitely not above Dooku.

Firstly, if you don't see a glowing, floating version of Anakin in this passage, than I'd argue you've never read it closely. Anakin is drawing on personal experience to battle Dooku, proving that he has let go completely. I'd argue, yet again, that he has tapped into his Oneness

Anakin is indefinitely conflicted. He is conflicted as a Jedi, and he is conflicted as a Sith, but in this moment, Anakin is unconflicted.

Nope. The novel is very clear in equating the mental states of Zonakin, KFV and MFV:

Zonakin:

The Dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

Revenge of the Sith Novel

KFV:

He instead turned his gaze inward: he unlocked the furnace gate within his heart and stepped forth to regard with new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life. I am Darth Vader, he said within himself. The dragon tried again to whisper of failure, and weakness, and inevitable death, but with one hand the Sith Lord caught it, crushed away its voice; it tried to rise then, to coil and rear and strike, but the Sith Lord laid his other hand upon it and broke its power with a single effortless twist. I am Darth Vader, he repeated as he ground the dragon's corpse to dust beneath his mental heel, as he watched the dragon's dust and ashes scatter before the blast from his furnace heart,and you—You are nothing at all. He had become, finally, what they all called him.

MFV:

Padme? Are you here? Are you all right? "I'm very sorry, Lord Vader. I'm afraid she died. It seems in your anger, you killed her." This burns hotter than the lava had. "No... no, it is not possible!" You loved her. You will always love her. You could never will her death. Never. But you remember...You remember all of it. You remember the dragon that you brought Vader forth from your heart to slay. You remember the cold venom in Vader's blood. You remember the furnace of Vader's fury,and the black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth And there is one blazing moment in which you finally under-stand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.

Zonakin, KFV and MFV’s mental state is equated as being the exact same. No distinction is made. To further emphasise the point:

Again:

Zonakin:

Kill him,” Palpatine says. “Kill him now.” In Skywalker’s eyes he sees only flames."– Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

KFV:

"The head of the Techno Union turned at his approach, cringing, arms lifted to shield his faceplate from the flames in the dragon’s eyes.“Please, I’ll give you anything. Anything you want!”" – Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

MFV:

"He was looking past her shoulder. Feral joy burned from his eyes, and his face was no longer human. “You …” From behind her, calmly precise, with that clipped Coruscanti accent: “Padmé. Move away from him.” “Obi-Wan?” She whirled, and he was on the landing ramp, still and sad. “No!” “You,” growled a voice that should have been her love’s. “You brought him here …” She turned back, and now he was looking at her. His eyes were full of flame."– Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

Since you’re appealing to the way the passages describe Anakin, he’s very much equated as the same as KFV to Zonakin.

Anakin’s clarity is the difference. I point that out in my post, too. when he is fighting Dooku, he mind is clear as a crystal bell. It’s vastly different.

Moving on:

Lucas line edited this novel, and he may not have outwardly stated that Anakin was at his most powerful here, but he supported it because the words were printed.

The text of the novel, which state the following:

  • Jedi Anakin = most powerful Jedi

Obi Wan beats him. He has to use the dark side to beat Dooku.

  • Zonakin and MFV both having “fury” (your fixation, not mine). With MFV “bringing the full heat of his fury” onto Obi Wan

Full fury on metal shards, and we don’t even know how they didn’t hit Obi Wan.

  • The mental states of Zonakin, KFV and MFV being equated as the same on three separate occasions

Nope, the clarity is the difference. If he can simply decide to beat Dooku, then he should be able to decide to beat Obi Wan, who is less than or equal to Dooku.

He can’t, so the clarity quote becomes vastly more important.

  • Anakin’s powers directly stated to have grown with the dark sidE

Etc

As for KFV being the most powerful version, I disagree because there is not enough textual evidence to support such a theory.

It’s verbatim stated that his powers have grown and his mental state is affirmed as the same. It’s not “a theory”. It’s explicitly stated in the novel that KFV > Zonakin. Framing it as a theory is disiningenous.

Show me the words Knightfall Vader and Zonakin in the novel, please.


Moving on:

you think Mustafar Anakin was the strongest, then I will point you to the fact that Obi Wan beat him and matched him in the Force. The novels even state that they are even, and Obi Wan is holding back because of his love for Anakin. Obi Wan is the one who has to let go

The same novel which has Mustafar Anakin force blasting Obi Wan all over the place:

A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half “stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.”

Obi Wan has familiarity with his style and is constantly on the back foot.

Obi Wan was holding back in the beginning of the fight, and even passed on an opportunity to kill Anakin.

Anyway, I’ve thoroughly explained why your arguments are from incredulity.

Not even close. Appealing to statements that are contradicted by actions is not a good rebuttal.

You need to be able to explain how Anakin beat Dooku handily, became more powerful, and then lost to Kenobi, who Dooku literally ragdolled with the Force.

You can’t, but my theory does, and it’s greatly supported by the passage I analyzed and posted.

Nowhere in the text is Zonakin > Knightfall Vader, simply because you don’t want to admit that Knightfall Vader can slam Dooku.

I didn’t say that KFV couldn’t slam Dooku. It’s strange that you think he can when he cannot even beat Obi Wan.

Also, where are the words Knightfall Vader and Zonakin in the text again?

Avatar image for sonofdarkness
SonOfDarkness

3352

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34  Edited By SonOfDarkness

Not sure exactly where he stops but I’m sure he doesn’t clear.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40343

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#35 frozen  Moderator
Avatar image for exileduhu
ExiledUhu

92

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Based poll results.

I gave my vote to ROTJ, but he can potentially clear for a minority. Definitely not stopping pre-ESB.

Some of the analyses on this thread have been rather creative, to say the least. I might address some of them if this thread is still alive in a couple of days.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40343

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#37  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

He threw shards of metal with the full heat of his fury. It’s clearly stated in your scan

You are incorrect. The difference is what his fury does. The your scan, he throws shards of metal. During the Dooku fight, his fury turned one of the powerful weapons in SW into a child’s plaything

This is a complete non point. Who cares if he’s throwing shards of metal? What matters is that he used an attack on Obi Wan which is described as “the full heat of his fury”. Emphasis on “full heat”. Whatever fury he’s bringing onto Obi Wan is the fullest extent of it. The fact that Obi Wan fared better against Anakin’s “full fury” whereas Dooku was wrecked is a point in Obi Wan’s favour. The relevant point here is that the fury is to the fullest extent vs Obi Wan. So the passage you cited discredits your own case. Moving on:

The crux of all your quotes is that Anakin isn’t unstoppable or unable to be matched. Dooku matches him alongside Kenobi, and Obi Wan beats him on Mustafar. Kenobi beats him in OWK. Kenobi beats him in a PT flashback in OWK.

You’re the one who asked me to primarily cite the novel and not outside sources, so that’s what I did. Now you’re bringing up outside fights from different materials. The OWK spar is an AOTC flashback, not relevant to ROTS iteration. Moreover it’s a spar, in which Anakin is very clearly physically better. Obi Wan outsmarts him, as usual. If you go by the Stover novel (which you are), Anakin is supreme. No point in trying to use outside materials. Anakin’s physically superior to Obi Wan on Mustafar and is described as “all over” Dooku in their fight per this novel.

The statements that he is the fastest and strongest are countered by what that occurs.

Nah, you asked for what the novel says, and this is how it regards Anakin.

Obi Wan and Dooku match his speed.

Addressed.

He does overpower Dooku, though

The blanket statements aren't substantiated.

Addressed this.

He doesn’t beat Dooku as a Jedi. He must use the Dark Side

Because the novel emphasises his Jedi restraint. This doesn’t mean he is less powerful than Dooku.

The novel makes that clear.

Same novel that has passages which you’re now regarding as “unsubstantiated”.

He doesn't beat Obi Wan, who was earlier beaten by Dooku

Obi Wan undergoes growth throughout ROTS. He canonically lost his fear:

Which we know buffs FUs, as seen in the case of Cere:
Which we know buffs FUs, as seen in the case of Cere:
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

And Kanan vs GI:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

If you have evidence that Kenobi didn’t grow, I’d like to see it. Kenobi is also off guarded on the IH per the junior novel which you previously cited:

So all of the statements fall flat.

So you’re essentially disregarding the parts of the novel which don’t align with your interpretation - which is that Zonakin is some sort of oneness moment. In spite of the fact that the novel holds all versions of Anakin in extremely high regard:

He does hand wave Dooku with minimum effort. I addressed this in my post. Nothing Dooku does can or will make any difference. I addressed this, too. He decides, and it happens. That is the epitome of a stomp

Nah, he doesn’t. Beating him quickly in sabers with extremely high focus isn’t “hand waving” him. He is still out-duelling him with intense focus. This is not the same as just raising your hand and finger flicking, which is what Mortis Anakin would do to Dooku.

I don’t think Anakin has to tap into his full potential to beat Dooku. I think he taps into his full potential and eclipses Dooku. In this moment, he is thousands of times more powerful than Dooku, which is why he ragdolls him

??????????

So you think that Zonakin is thousands of times more powerful than Dooku?!

This is NOT his full potential. A FP Anakin can ragdoll The Ones of Mortis. You seem to think that gaps don’t exist between The Ones and FUs such as Dooku.

Anakin becoming thousands of times more powerful in some oneness moment to beat Dooku is just straight up head canon. And I say this respectfully, there’s no other word for it. Not substantiated by any intent whatsoever.

Nope. He didn’t flatten Obi Wan

Feat for Obi Wan. The creators of ROTS are fully aware that Anakin is Obi’s superior, especially on Mustafar. Yet Obi still won.

who may not be below, but is definitely not above Dooku.

You haven’t substantiated why this is the case. Why is he not above Dooku? He can probably beat him.

For starters, I’ve already explained further up why Kenobi grew over the course of ROTS.

Secondly, the junior novel says he was off guarded by Dooku.

Third, styles make fights. Anakin and Obi know all of each other’s moves. The novel likens this knowledge as being more intimate than lovers.

And lastly, even if we argue that Mustafar Vader is hindered (which he isn’t), this has zero relevance to Knightfall Vader.

Anakin’s clarity is the difference. I point that out in my post, too. when he is fighting Dooku, he mind is clear as a crystal bell. It’s vastly different.

You haven’t substantiated as to why this makes an appreciable difference. The text certainly doesn’t indicate that it does. He brings his full power to bear and the mindsets are all likened as the same. Moreover, I’m not sure why you think the other versions aren’t focused or have clarity. When the passages I just posted emphasise that they very much do have that

Obi Wan beats him. He has to use the dark side to beat Dooku.

Addressed.

Full fury on metal shards, and we don’t even know how they didn’t hit Obi Wan

Again, addressed this too. “Metal shards” is completely irrelevant. You’re focusing on the completely irrelevant portion of the quote. We are discussing the “full heat of his fury”.

Nope, the clarity is the difference. If he can simply decide to beat Dooku,

He can decide to beat Dooku because he’s just better in every way. Plainly stated by Sidious. His restraint holds him back. He’s not actually less powerful.

then he should be able to decide to beat Obi Wan, who is less than or equal to Dooku.

Not the case at all. You are ignoring the fact that it’s a highly stylistic fight and that Obi Wan grows.

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.”

Show me the words Knightfall Vader and Zonakin in the novel, please.

I showed you the passage in which his powers are stated to have grown, which you just flat out ignored.

Not even close. Appealing to statements that are contradicted by actions is not a good rebuttal.

Again, they are statements from the novel that you cited.

You need to be able to explain how Anakin beat Dooku handily

He beat him by letting go of restraint and simply being better.

became more powerful,

Dark side.

and then lost to Kenobi,

Stylistic matchup in which he’s clearly more powerful.

who Dooku literally ragdolled with the Force.

Off guarded + Obi grows.

Moreover, why is Knightfall Vader not clear in mindset? He’s literally likened to a “droid executing its programming” and stated to be “disturbingly calm”. So if “mindset” is what you value, here’s KFV being clear:

Skywalker Family at War:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

You can’t, but my theory does, and it’s greatly supported by the passage I analyzed and posted.

You did not “greatly support” it whatsoever. You’re literally arguing that Anakin tapped into his full potential and became thousands of times more powerful than Dooku. This is the definition of a head canon theory. Do you realise that A) there’s a monumental gap between The Ones of Mortis vs Dooku and B) Anakin did NOT hand wave Dooku?

It’s strange that you think he can when he cannot even beat Obi Wan.

I think he can slam Dooku because that’s what happened in the film. He’s also stated far above by many sources.

Avatar image for lightordark
LightorDark

4734

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@frozen: So, I’ll reply to your response later, but it’s worth nothing that if Jedi Anakin is supposedly greater than Yoda, and Anakin is more powerful with the dark side, then Obi Wan ”growing” by letting go of his fear means and matching Anakin means he would be more powerful than Yoda.

This is obviously false since Yoda went to fight Sidious, and sent Obi Wan to fight Anakin because he wasn’t powerful enough to fight Sidious.

Obi Wan may have grown over the course of ROTS, but he couldnt have surpassed Yoda, or he would have gone to fight Sidious.

I’m not disregarding parts of the book that don’t agree with my interpretation. The statements conflict with the narrative. Yoda and Sidious are stronger than Obi Wan. Obi Wan matches Anakin in a force push, so any statement that Anakin is more powerful than Yoda is contradicted.

Obi Wan cannot be too weak to fight Sidious and be capable of matching Force power with someone who is more powerful than Yoda, who is strong enough to match Sidious.

Obi Wan cannot be weaker than Dooku, yet able to match Force power with someone who eclipsed Dooku. Maybe Obi Wan wasn’t fast enough to block Dooku’s force attack, but he may not have been able to block it if he had been faster. We will never know.

Anakin didn’t simply beat Dooku. He negated force knowledge, saber skills, and decades of combat experience. Kenobi didn’t grow that much by letting go of his fear.

Avatar image for frozen
frozen

40343

Forum Posts

258

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 14

#39  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@lightordark:

So, I’ll reply to your response later, but it’s worth nothing that if Jedi Anakin is supposedly greater than Yoda, and Anakin is more powerful with the dark side, then Obi Wan ”growing” by letting go of his fear means and matching Anakin means he would be more powerful than Yoda.

Not really. This idea that the creators of ROTS weren’t aware of Anakin being more powerful Obi Wan is unfounded.

Nick Gillard, ROTS DVD commentary) wrote:

Anakin becomes a level 9. George knows the levels, myself and George talked about levels and how it was. But it's more, it's not like a black belt, it's more like a Richter scale. So the difference between eight, Obi's an eight, so the difference between an eight and a nine is enormous.

Homing Beacon Article 2005 - TheForce.net wrote:

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels.

Gillard wrote:

In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines“

This tiering system, which is imbued into the lightsaber fights and designed by Lucas/Gillard, firmly places Anakin in the realm of Yoda and Sidious. The Lucas approved marketing and BTS for the film also blatantly affirm Anakin as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived:

Dreamwatch #113 - Interview with Nick Gillard wrote:

Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived.

Echoed by story-group

Pablo Hidalgo, Just The Facts - Episode III, TheForce.net wrote: “Darth Vader will prove to be the most deadly character in the film.”

Lucas himself is at the very least saying Anakin was on par with the emperor, as post injuries he is “no longer” as strong as the emperor. Meaning that prior to injuries, he was at the bare minimum just as strong if not beyond.

But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.”

Obi Wan is also stated below Anakin. This is not an “oversight” either. You seem to think that Mr Lucas and Gillard are unaware of their own intent. This is not the case. They’re explicitly aware of the fact that Anakin is more powerful than Obi Wan yet lost anyway.

George has stated that Anakin was more powerful than Obi Wan ar the time of release

George Lucas: Making of Revenge of the Sith: Documentary wrote: “The difference is that Obi-Wan is more experienced but Anakin is more powerful"

Those who have worked with Lucasfilm and GL echo the same sentiment:

No Caption Provided

Gillard acknowledged Anakin as better: “Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him," he notes. "But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes.

Gillard: “Obi knows that Anakin is better than him, but because he taught him, he knows emotionally how he’s going to behave.”

He's more skilled than Obi-Wan. Anakin always attacks. He's better and he knows it”

They’re aware that Anakin lost to a less powerful opponent. There is no internal inconsistency there. The same creators which have Anakin as being in the realm of Yoda/Sidious (likely beyond based on their wording) are well aware that Anakin lost to an inferior opponent. This is all conveyed in the quotes.

The gap between Kenobi (Mustafar) and titans just isn’t as big as you think.

This is obviously false since Yoda went to fight Sidious, and sent Obi Wan to fight Anakin because he wasn’t powerful enough to fight Sidious.

Yoda assumes that Sidious had single handedly beaten Mace and the entire B team. He also sends Obi after Anakin because he’s the logical choice. He knows how Anakin fights, which is not the case for Sidious. This is like saying Obi being sent after GG means he’s > Yoda.

Obi Wan may have grown over the course of ROTS, but he couldnt have surpassed Yoda, or he would have gone to fight Sidious.

He doesn’t need to surpass Yoda to contend with MFV.

I’m not disregarding parts of the book that don’t agree with my interpretation.

You are doing exactly that.

The statements conflict with the narrative.

The only thing that conflicts with the narrative is that Anakin tapped into his full potential to become thousands of times more powerful than Dooku to beat him. This is not reflected by…. ang source. The director, choreographer, author, book, etc. I can’t believe you’re even arguing this to be honest.

Yoda and Sidious are stronger than Obi Wan. Obi Wan matches Anakin in a force push, so any statement that Anakin is more powerful than Yoda is contradicted.

Not really. Even the sources which say Anakin wasn’t conflicted also make note that Anakin was more powerful on Mustafar:

This idea that it’s “contradicted“ is just straight up wrong. There’s massive consistency between the director, choreographer, author and all other aspects of the film’s production on Anakin being more powerful than Obi Wan. Being able to briefly match him in a force push (which he was losing if you look closely) doesn’t mean they’re equally as strong.

Obi Wan cannot be too weak to fight Sidious and be capable of matching Force power with someone who is more powerful than Yoda, who is strong enough to match Sidious.

Addressed.

Obi Wan cannot be weaker than Dooku,

He is not weaker than Dooku. He is in fact more powerful than him on Mustafar. You haven’t engaged with the growth argument.

yet able to match Force power with someone who eclipsedDooku.

More proof that he’s > Dooku.

Maybe Obi Wan wasn’t fast enough to block Dooku’s force attack, but he may not have been able to block it if he had been faster. We will never know.

He‘s stated off guarded.

Anakin didn’t simply beat Dooku. He negated force knowledge, saber skills, and decades of combat experience.

Yes, this is what was intended by the film’s director, who also line edited the novel. George does not consider Anakin as needing a oneness moment to beat Dooku. He just thinks of him as better because he is. It’s really that simple. Low diffing Dooku doesn’t require oneness.

Kenobi didn’t grow that much by letting go of his fear.

Are you going to substantiate that or? Cere jumped up to being able to give Vader a tough fight through letting go of fear. She was nowhere near this before. We can quantify Obi Wan’s growth through all the statements which say Anakin wasn’t hindered. Just saying he didn’t grow and not substantiating isn’t cutting it.

Conclusion

This idea that Anakin tapped into his “full potential“ and became thousands of times more powerful than Dooku is absurd. Literally zero evidence of this from the text of the senior novel or its adjacent canon (author statements, film‘s production, etc). He‘s probably twice as powerful as Dooku with the dark side, if that. The fact that you think it’s a oneness moment comparable to Mortis and thousands of times is beyond me.

He also didn’t hand wave Dooku either…

Avatar image for rajjarsalt
rajjarsalt

28197

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

"Zonakin"

What is this, some clever play on Anakin being in the zone?

Avatar image for a_fine_edition
A_FINE_EDITION

3720

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#41  Edited By A_FINE_EDITION

"Zonakin"

What is this, some clever play on Anakin being in the zone?

Uhm... yes. Yes it is.

Avatar image for noobsnowman
noobsnowman

6017

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Clears.