Zaheer vs P'Li vs Ming-Hua vs Ghazan

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#1 Posted by DJudgment (526 posts) - - Show Bio

This hasn't been done i don't believe.

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Location - Wulong Forest

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Red Lotus have disbanded and are out to kill each other.

So all characters are Bloodlusted.

All EOS.

Starting distance: 15 feet.

Last man/women standing

Who wins ?

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#3 Posted by mialthefencer (367 posts) - - Show Bio

This has been done before in a different environment. Ghazan is going down to P'li or Zaheer very quickly here. A forest is an ideal environment for Ming Hua, but I see her getting blown away by P'li since I don't see any trees in the picture. Void Zaheer is fully capable of evading P'li's blasts and KOing P'li. I'd back Zaheer.

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#4 Posted by EmmaFrostXmen (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

Zaheer or P’li if she can tag him

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#5 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua hands down. I don't really think anyone here is a major threat to her if she's serious. She's much faster, far too agile, better offence than anyone here besides P'Li and can just flash freeze anyone the moment she touches them.

P'Li would blow either Zaheer or Ghazan to bits, though depending on wether or not he can fly here, he can last a while. Ghazan would take Zaheer down eventually, there's a very significant difference in power between them.

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#6 Posted by geekryan (5444 posts) - - Show Bio

P’Li blasts Ghazan right off the bat. He is the least agile/mobile of the four.

P’Li then gets taken out by either Zaheer or Ming Hua as she is the most dangerous.

Between Zaheer and Ming Hua, I’d back Ming Hua. However, if he has his flight and their fight takes place on the left portion of the map (without any trees), Zaheer takes this due to his increased mobility and Ming Hua’s lessened mobility.

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#7 Posted by mialthefencer (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan said:

P’Li blasts Ghazan right off the bat. He is the least agile/mobile of the four.

P’Li then gets taken out by either Zaheer or Ming Hua as she is the most dangerous.

Between Zaheer and Ming Hua, I’d back Ming Hua. However, if he has his flight and their fight takes place on the left portion of the map (without any trees), Zaheer takes this due to his increased mobility and Ming Hua’s lessened mobility.

I'm changing my answer to this. I think that at 15 feet, this scenario is more likely than the one I came up with.

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#8 Posted by Alsimmons77 (1949 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua or P'Li, Zaheer and Ghazan are the weak links.

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#9 Posted by mialthefencer (367 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua or P'Li, Zaheer and Ghazan are the weak links.

How is Void Zaheer a weak link?

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#10 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

I just adore how dependant on locations bending fights are.

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#11 Posted by Alsimmons77 (1949 posts) - - Show Bio

@alsimmons77 said:

Ming Hua or P'Li, Zaheer and Ghazan are the weak links.

How is Void Zaheer a weak link?

By being the by far worst bender of the 4, just his flight ability is even making him a relevant part of this fight.

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#12 Posted by mialthefencer (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@mialthefencer said:
@alsimmons77 said:

Ming Hua or P'Li, Zaheer and Ghazan are the weak links.

How is Void Zaheer a weak link?

By being the by far worst bender of the 4, just his flight ability is even making him a relevant part of this fight.

Zaheer has shown that his speed and combat skill are enough to make him a top tier threat against Kya, Tonraq, and numerous fodder. He's not as powerful as his team mates, but he doesn't need to be - he hits hard enough to put them down pretty easily, and his flight makes him essentially untouchable to anyone here except maybe P'li.

AS Korra no-diffed Ghazan and Ming Hua in moments, but had an extended fight with Void Zaheer. He's definitely not below his team mates.

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#13 Posted by DJudgment (526 posts) - - Show Bio

I just adore how dependant on locations bending fights are.

I tried to find the best place for all benders to be on level playing field, i couldn't really find anywhere else. Maybe crystal catacombs ?

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#14 Posted by ANTHP2000 (29640 posts) - - Show Bio

@djudgment: This is a pretty neutral location actually. The Crystal Catacombs is also a great setting, but with the Red Lotus, this one seems better.

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#15 Posted by DJudgment (526 posts) - - Show Bio

@djudgment: This is a pretty neutral location actually. The Crystal Catacombs is also a great setting, but with the Red Lotus, this one seems better.

Ahh that's good to hear, Thank you.

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#16 Posted by Wrathofthebrad (1236 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua hands down. I don't really think anyone here is a major threat to her if she's serious. She's much faster, far too agile, better offence than anyone here besides P'Li and can just flash freeze anyone the moment she touches them.

P'Li would blow either Zaheer or Ghazan to bits, though depending on wether or not he can fly here, he can last a while. Ghazan would take Zaheer down eventually, there's a very significant difference in power between them.

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#17 Posted by RaimundoPedrosa (1092 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua hands down. I don't really think anyone here is a major threat to her if she's serious. She's much faster, far too agile, better offence than anyone here besides P'Li and can just flash freeze anyone the moment she touches them.

P'Li would blow either Zaheer or Ghazan to bits, though depending on wether or not he can fly here, he can last a while. Ghazan would take Zaheer down eventually, there's a very significant difference in power between them.

Agreed. Plus, she she make new water arms by pulling/draining the water entirely out of P'Li's body, then proceed to do the same to Zaheer next as he's about to fly (since P'Li just died and he's let go his earthly tether).

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#18 Posted by MainJP (7089 posts) - - Show Bio
@geekryan said:

P’Li blasts Ghazan right off the bat. He is the least agile/mobile of the four.

P’Li then gets taken out by either Zaheer or Ming Hua as she is the most dangerous.

Between Zaheer and Ming Hua, I’d back Ming Hua. However, if he has his flight and their fight takes place on the left portion of the map (without any trees), Zaheer takes this due to his increased mobility and Ming Hua’s lessened mobility.

I agree with this.

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#19 Posted by marvelfan1992 (3160 posts) - - Show Bio

@mainjp said:
@geekryan said:

P’Li blasts Ghazan right off the bat. He is the least agile/mobile of the four.

P’Li then gets taken out by either Zaheer or Ming Hua as she is the most dangerous.

Between Zaheer and Ming Hua, I’d back Ming Hua. However, if he has his flight and their fight takes place on the left portion of the map (without any trees), Zaheer takes this due to his increased mobility and Ming Hua’s lessened mobility.

I agree with this.

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#20 Posted by geekryan (5444 posts) - - Show Bio

@raimundopedrosa: Umm what? No one in the Avatarverse, including Ming Hua, has ever pulled/drained the water directly out of someone’s body. Closest we have is bloodbending, which Ming Hua has never done.

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#21 Posted by Tektonic (1391 posts) - - Show Bio
@geekryan said:

P’Li blasts Ghazan right off the bat. He is the least agile/mobile of the four.

P’Li then gets taken out by either Zaheer or Ming Hua as she is the most dangerous.

Between Zaheer and Ming Hua, I’d back Ming Hua. However, if he has his flight and their fight takes place on the left portion of the map (without any trees), Zaheer takes this due to his increased mobility and Ming Hua’s lessened mobility.

I'm changing my answer to this. I think that at 15 feet, this scenario is more likely than the one I came up with.

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#22 Posted by chloros (242 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice match. I think overall I see Ming Hua being victorious the most. Ghazan is the slowest and will likely go down first. Even if Ghazan lava ups the field she can still swing around just fine. Ming Hua and Zaheer are fast and agile enough to dodge P'li's attacks and close the distance needed to take her down. I think she goes down next mainly because Zaheer will just be flying around and dodging most of the time. He is a tactical fighter and even blood lusted will probably try to get them to take each other out first. There is a great water source and plenty of trees for Ming to have cover and be evasive. If it came down to Zaheer and Ming she can overpower him. 🌺

I was just thinking, I know they are blood lusted but do you guys think they might try and couple off? Zaheer and P'li vs Ming Hua and Ghazan?

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#23 Posted by RaimundoPedrosa (1092 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan said:

@raimundopedrosa: Umm what? No one in the Avatarverse, including Ming Hua, has ever pulled/drained the water directly out of someone’s body. Closest we have is bloodbending, which Ming Hua has never done.

Hmm, true, but she was originally drafted to be a bloodbender, so maybe she could've done it, right?

Also, I'm still trying to figure out everyone's newest abilities, because after reading Smoke and Shadow Part 3, I have a very strong hunch that Azula may be omnipresent!

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#24 Posted by Amendment50 (15844 posts) - - Show Bio

Zaheer

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#25 Posted by Crimson-Feather (183 posts) - - Show Bio

Ming Hua, she is the fastest fighter and most deadly among the Red Lotus. Although P'Li has the most fire power.

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#26 Edited by Alsimmons77 (1949 posts) - - Show Bio

@mialthefencer:

Zaheer has shown that his speed and combat skill are enough to make him a top tier threat against Kya, Tonraq, and numerous fodder.

He isn't fighting Kya, Tonraq or any fodder in this fight.

He's not as powerful as his team mates, but he doesn't need to be - he hits hard enough to put them down pretty easily, and his flight makes him essentially untouchable to anyone here except maybe P'li.

Lmao, untouchable?

Zaheer himself hasn't remotely the attack range to stay out of their attack range, and they could just grab, shot and more him out of the air, just Ghazan the other weak link would have trouble with that.

AS Korra no-diffed Ghazan and Ming Hua in moments, but had an extended fight with Void Zaheer.

Are you kidding me?

Void Zaheer had not a single legitimate fight with Korra, all he did was flying away from a poisoned basically against her own body fighting Korra, who wasn't even able to make rational decisions and followed him with fire jets for god's sake, while she also left herself wide open.

He's definitely not below his team mates.

He is definitely below all of them as a bender, his vertical agility is still the only reason why he is even a relevant part of this fight.

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#27 Posted by mialthefencer (367 posts) - - Show Bio

He isn't fighting Kya, Tonraq or any fodder in this fight.

Not sure what that's supposed to mean. Those fights show he's a high tier threat even without flight (he beat Kya faster than Ming Hua, even though Kya had several advantages against him that she didn't have against Ming Hua).

Lmao, untouchable?

If he can dodge this:

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Neither Ghazan nor Ming Hua are ever touching him.

Zaheer himself hasn't remotely the attack range to stay out of their attack range,

He obviously can't stay out of P'li's range, but he can and will close the gap on her. As for the other two:

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He's blasting Korra from 100s of feet away here. I'd also like to note that he damaged the ground from that distance (extremely impressive since airbending attacks dissipate over time, showing very good raw power). Furthermore, even though Korra can clearly react to his attacks, he still forces her into his third attack with clever positioning, which is incredibly impressive considering how quickly AS Korra moves on fire jets. Neither Ghazan nor Ming Hua move remotely as fast as AS Korra on level ground, so he can definitely tag them from way outside their range.

and they could just grab, shot and more him out of the air,

When has Ming Hua or Ghazan ever hit anyone even remotely as fast or evasive as Void Zaheer?

just Ghazan the other weak link would have trouble with that.

Ming Hua is literally a melee character - she doesn't remotely have the range to engage Zaheer. P'li does, but he's going to close the gap against her, not gain distance.

Are you kidding me?

No.

Void Zaheer had not a single legitimate fight with Korra, all he did was flying away from a poisoned basically against her own body fighting Korra, who wasn't even able to make rational decisions and followed him with fire jets for god's sake, while she also left herself wide open.

Zaheer did a lot more than fly away. He landed three solid hits on Korra before she collapsed, and what he dodged is way, way above what most benders can do, including Ghazan and Ming Hua. Ghazan and Ming Hua both got fodderized by AS Korra, whereas Zaheer tagged her (repeatedly), evaded her for several minutes, and even blitzed her at one point. He wouldn't have won without the poison, but nobody is taking a bloodlusted AS in a straight fight, and his performance was far, far better then his comrades.

He is definitely below all of them as a bender,

Are you sure? I'd argue achieving true, unaided flight is extremely impressive, easily on the level of his comrades, as is his breath bending technique. It's hard to compare those with lavabending, combustionbending, or Ming's style directly, but saying that it's definitely below all of them is subjective and difficult to prove.

his vertical agility is still the only reason why he is even a relevant part of this fight.

Without flight he would lose, but he'd still be relevant. He's not far below Ming without flight, and I'd argue for him beating Ghazan even flightless. Regardless, he has flight here.

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#28 Posted by Alsimmons77 (1949 posts) - - Show Bio

@mialthefencer:

Not sure what that's supposed to mean. Those fights show he's a high tier threat even without flight (he beat Kya faster than Ming Hua, even though Kya had several advantages against him that she didn't have against Ming Hua).

No it doesn't, neither of the listed are high tiers, and Ming Hua had a very different fight with Kya.

If he can dodge this:

Neither Ghazan nor Ming Hua are ever touching him.

Lmao, they would just don't follow him, or throwing attacks from that far away. And Zaheer got even tagged by Korra herself, after he dodged the boulders.

Zaheer couldn't attack them in an effective way from that distance anyways.

He obviously can't stay out of P'li's range, but he can and will close the gap on her. As for the other two:

What are you even doing here?

That was inside their range, and all Zaheer did was pushing the anyways dying Korra to the ground, neither Ming Hua nor Ghazan would be mid-air or dying.

He's blasting Korra from 100s of feet away here. I'd also like to note that he damaged the ground from that distance (extremely impressive since airbending attacks dissipate over time, showing very good raw power).

From where did you even get 100s of feet away?

Korra was much closer just a second before that scene, and even her quite small fire jets were damaging the ground around as much, so no nothing was extremely impressive.

Furthermore, even though Korra can clearly react to his attacks, he still forces her into his third attack with clever positioning, which is incredibly impressive considering how quickly AS Korra moves on fire jets. Neither Ghazan nor Ming Hua move remotely as fast as AS Korra on level ground, so he can definitely tag them from way outside their range.

That was poisoned Korra moving in an almost straight line, with a worse flying ability.

Is any shit impressive if Zaheer does it? I bet if Azula uses clever positoning would that be just a standard feat, am i wrong?

When has Ming Hua or Ghazan ever hit anyone even remotely as fast or evasive as Void Zaheer?

When has Zaheer legitimately fought and evaded someone just nearly as fast and skilled as Ming Hua, who wasn't following him with a worse flying ability and dying from poison?

Ming Hua is literally a melee character - she doesn't remotely have the range to engage Zaheer. P'li does, but he's going to close the gap against her, not gain distance.

Just what is wrong with you?

Ming Hua isn't a melee character at all, period.

No.

Yes you do, yes you do.........

Zaheer did a lot more than fly away. He landed three solid hits on Korra before she collapsed, and what he dodged is way, way above what most benders can do, including Ghazan and Ming Hua.

No, landing hits on Korra in that situation are barely impressive feats, and avoiding attacks like that is not bad but also not nearly as impressive as it would have been in a legitimate fight.

Ghazan and Ming Hua both got fodderized by AS Korra, whereas Zaheer tagged her (repeatedly), evaded her for several minutes, and even blitzed her at one point. He wouldn't have won without the poison, but nobody is taking a bloodlusted AS in a straight fight, and his performance was far, far better then his comrades.

His comrades got catched off-guard, and had no extremely convinient ability to flee, that's all that we need to know about that.

The only reason why he did so well, were Korra's extremely bad condition, and that she followed him with a worse flying ability. Which gave Zaheer extreme advantages, that don't translate to completely different kinds of fights.

Are you sure? I'd argue achieving true, unaided flight is extremely impressive, easily on the level of his comrades, as is his breath bending technique. It's hard to compare those with lavabending, combustionbending, or Ming's style directly, but saying that it's definitely below all of them is subjective and difficult to prove.

I was barely ever more sure about anything related to battle threads, his Void asspull had nothing i repeat nothing to do with his airbending skills, i even give them that it was a cool scene but even if i'm very generous would that be at best an ability he gained through his personality and beliefs.

He is definitely below them as a bender, that is not very difficult to prove.

Without flight he would lose, but he'd still be relevant. He's not far below Ming without flight, and I'd argue for him beating Ghazan even flightless. Regardless, he has flight here.

No he wouldn't be, he would at best have a decent fight with Ghazan before Ming Hua or P'Li decide to just take him out.

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#29 Posted by Zuriel-el (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

Zaheer

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#30 Posted by mialthefencer (367 posts) - - Show Bio

No it doesn't, neither of the listed are high tiers, and Ming Hua had a very different fight with Kya.

Ming Hua's very different fight with Kya was longer and more drawn out. If Zaheer weren't on her level, Kya would've done much better against him.

Lmao, they would just don't follow him,

Then they can't pressure him or tag him (referring to Ghazan and Ming Hua).

or throwing attacks from that far away.

How do they hit him if they don't use attacks from a distance?

And Zaheer got even tagged by Korra herself, after he dodged the boulders.

None of these fighters are near bloodlusted AS Korra. Zaheer getting tagged by her doesn't diminish the ridiculous level of speed and evasion he showed in that fight.

That was inside their range,

No it wasn't. Can you show me Ghazan or Ming Hua attacking at that range?

and all Zaheer did was pushing the anyways dying Korra to the ground,

He smacked her mid-air with an air blade. We saw those air blades ripping up the ground, and Zaheer has two shotted Korra with air blades before. Korra's durability >> Ming Hua or Ghazan's durability.

neither Ming Hua nor Ghazan would be mid-air or dying.

The fact that they won't be mid air means that they'll be moving much slower then Korra, and thus be easier targets. The fact that Korra was dying didn't change the extreme level of speed she showed in that fight, and she was clearly capable of reacting to his airblades. He was able to force her to get hit by the third shot there, and there's no real reason why he couldn't do the same to Ghazan or Ming Hua.

From where did you even get 100s of feet away?

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Look how tiny Korra is there. When Zaheer was blasting, he was far above that valley.

Korra was much closer just a second before that scene,

The thing about Void Zaheer and Berserker Korra is that they could move extremely quickly, so what was there a second ago doesn't really matter.

and even her quite small fire jets were damaging the ground around as much, so no nothing was extremely impressive.

Are you trying to lowball Zaheer by saying his attacks are on the level of AS firebending? Because that's not a particularly strong argument.

That was poisoned Korra moving in an almost straight line, with a worse flying ability.

Korra was clearly maneuvering around the blasts, and I think you're underestimating how maneuverable AS Korra was in that fight:

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See her spinning around that pillar? The fact that her flying ability was worse doesn't really change much. She's still faster and more maneuverable then 99% of the verse, including everyone here under these conditions.

Is any shit impressive if Zaheer does it?

If you can look at the final fight in S3 and not think that was impressive, I'm not really sure what to say.

I bet if Azula uses clever positoning would that be just a standard feat, am i wrong?

What does Azula have to do with this? If Azula did something like this, yes that would be incredibly impressive.

When has Zaheer legitimately fought and evaded someone just nearly as fast and skilled as Ming Hua, who wasn't following him with a worse flying ability and dying from poison?

I mean, you're unjustly excluding his fight with AS Korra. AS Korra >>>> Ming Hua, that was established as soon as she went AS:

If you'll notice, Zaheer actually evades the attack, unlike Ming Hua.
If you'll notice, Zaheer actually evades the attack, unlike Ming Hua.

Zaheer would've lost without the poison, sure, but no one here has remotely the level of offense, maneuverability, or durability that AS Korra displayed in that fight, and he was still consistently evading and tagging her for most of the fight.

Just what is wrong with you?

Ming Hua isn't a melee character at all, period.

Ming Hua's entire fighting style is based around closing the gap and taking her opponent down in melee. Literally all of her significant solo fights is her doing this. She did it against the White Lotus, she did it against Eska & Desna, she did it against Mako at the Oasis, she did it against Kya at the NAT, she did it against Mako again at the NAT, and she did it against Mako again in the cave. Ming Hua is 100% a melee character, and I'm not sure how you could've watched S3 and not reached that conclusion. Or can you show me some actually significant ranged offense?

No, landing hits on Korra in that situation are barely impressive feats,

Why not? Korra was moving incredibly quickly at a long distance.

and avoiding attacks like that is not bad but also notnearly as impressive as it would have been in a legitimate fight.

Ming Hua couldn't evade far, far lesser attacks from Korra. Dodging a pillar slam, incredibly fast earthbending projectiles, getting crushed from above by a boulder the size of a house etc... is by far the best dodging feat in the verse outside of maybe Comet Ozai.

His comrades got catched off-guard, and had no extremely convinient ability to flee, that's all that we need to know about that.

Zaheer was the one attacked first. If anyone was caught off guard, it ought to have been him.

The only reason why he did so well, were Korra's extremely bad condition, and that she followed him with a worse flying ability. Which gave Zaheer extreme advantages, that don't translate to completely different kinds of fights.

The speed, precision, and range Zaheer showed in that fight translate extremely well to most bending fights, including this one.

I was barely ever more sure about anything related to battle threads, his Void asspull had nothing i repeat nothing to do with his airbending skills,

Tenzin disagrees with you: "He's unlocked powers of airbending that haven't existed for thousands of years" - Tenzin, book 3, episode 13.

i even give them that it was a cool scene but even if i'm very generous would that be at best an ability he gained through his personality and beliefs.

Sure, he gained it through his personality and beliefs. That doesn't change the fact that true weightless unaided flight shows incredible skill - only two airbenders have ever achieved it.

He is definitely below them as a bender, that is not very difficult to prove.

By what metric is he below them? DC? Versatility? What exactly? Because by the metric of maneuverability, he's far above them.

No he wouldn't be, he would at best have a decent fight with Ghazan before Ming Hua or P'Li decide to just take him out.

Even without flight Ming would struggle to take him down (not that she wouldn't win, but it wouldn't be easy like you're suggesting). Ming struggled to beat Kya, and Zaheer proved that he is >> Kya in their fight. Zaheer also has feats against water arms specifically from his fight with Tonraq (and I know that Ming > Tonraq, but it's a relevant showing). I'd argue that he's as agile as Ming is if not more so on level ground as well.

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#31 Posted by vengefulshot (2205 posts) - - Show Bio

Ordinarily P'li but 15 feet is close enough for Ming Hua or Zaheer (with flight) to snag the win.