Yuuzhan Vong run the gauntlet

This is the entire Yuuzhan Vong during the Yuuzhan Vong war led by the Warmaster Tsavongh and Nom Anor only, with Vergere as a sort of "advisor". Information on the Yuuzhan Vong fleet at that time can be found here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong_fleet

They fight simultaneously in the air and on the ground, with the air half running a gauntlet at the same time as the ground forces, so the fleets may not just laser the ground forces from orbit. The fleet and armies gets no rest in-between fights and do not get to replenish their losses, though they do get an additional leader and a capital ship and escort of 4 Coral Skippers accompanying each new leader.

1. The Rebel Alliance circa the Original Trilogy minus the big 3 (Luke, Han, and Leia). This included Admiral Ackbar, General Crix Madine, Wedge Antilles, X-Wings, Y-Wings, A-Wings, B-Wings, and other Rebel Alliance vessels. While Han Solo is absent, Lando Calrissian is present, and he and Nien Numb are piloting the Falcon as they did in Return of the Jedi.

2. The Entire CIS, including Count Dooku, General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, Durge, Savage Opress, and Darth Sidious. Their military strength included Banking Clan frigates, Vulture Droids, Droid Tri-Fighters, AAT Tanks, Crab Droids, countless Battle Droids, Super Battle Droids, and Destroyer Droids, and General Grievous' Magnaguards.

3. The Empire as it was led by Grand Admiral Thrawn, Joruus C'baoth, and Luuke Skywalker

4. The GATOR (Grand Army of the Old Republic), including the entire Clone Army and Jedi Order all of their assorted ships and vehicles, which included AT-TEs, AT-RTs, Republic Gunships, the forerunner to Imperial Star Destroyers, Jedi Starfighters, and those tanks used in the "Zillo Beast" episode of the Clone Wars.

5. The Empire at its peak, including Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader, Grand Admiral Thrawn, and General Veers, as well as the Death Star, the Executor, and all ships and fleets that the Empire had during Palpatine's reign, which include Star Destroyers, Super Star Destroyers, countless TIE-type vehicles of various kinds, AT-ATs, and AT-STs.

6. The Empire led by the reborn Clone Emperor and DS Luke Skywalker, World Devastators and all. They will also be allowed to call in Grand Admiral Thrawn and The Chimaera after a set period of time (say...a few standard Galactic days?)

7. The CIS, GATOR, Post-Palpatine Empire led by Thrawn, New Republic at its peak, Mandalorians led by Boba Fett, and after a Galactic Week the resurgent Sith Empire led by Darth Revan and including the Star Forge.

How far do the Yuuzhan Vong get?

EDIT: The Vong Fleet's "new leader" and escort is given to them at the start of each new round they reach. Please refer to my link for a list on the Yuuzhan Vong Fleet's various leaders.

Cool.

@jeanroygrant: Thank you. But how far do you think the Vong get?

Definitely stops at 5, perhaps before.

@ShootingNova: Yeah, I'd say they make it past the first two rounds handily. Round 3 gives them a run for their money since its Thrawn, and he's a military genius. I'd actually say they stop at 4 most likely, since they'd be weakened by that point and its millions of clone troopers plus a Jedi Order just as powerful as the NJO-era one, even if they don't have Luke or Kyp Durron on their side.

@shroudofsorrow said:

@jeanroygrant: Thank you. But how far do you think the Vong get?

Np, and idk

@shroudofsorrow: They could very well stop at 3 or 4, but it's not 100% certain they will. As for round 5, yes, they certainly get eliminated.

They get stomped in six.

Honestly, why is Revan last? He's overrated like hell.

@ShootingNova: No he's not. Well, OK, yes he is, but he is a powerful character in his own right who deserves the respect he gets and more to the point he's an effective military leader. A military genius in fact. Plus, he's not solely last. He leads the reinforcements in the final round.

@shroudofsorrow: I know. He is not as powerful as people make him out to be.

I've read the Revan novel. I expected Darth Bane-level feats, and I got average Jedi Master lightsaber feats, and a few good Force feats.

@ShootingNova: He held his ground against the Sith Emperor as I recall, and that was when he might have still been drugged somewhat. He lost mostly due to Scourge's betrayal. And he is stated as being equally proficient in both sides of the Force, something Jedi Masters are not. But anyway, Revan's power levels aren't what I'm going for here so much as his military genius, which is considered quality. That and, again, he's leading the cavalry in the last round, not the last round entirely.

@shroudofsorrow said:

He held his ground against the Sith Emperor as I recall,

Held his own against an overrated being who lacks impressive combat feats. The Nathema feat is:

1. Inapplicable in a fight, due to requiring over 200 Sith Lords, and then a ritual taking days/weeks must then be enacted.

2. Was not of Vitiate's power. Vitiate had to manipulate (he could not subdue them of his own power) 200 Sith Lords and then use a days/weeks-long ritual to accomplish it.

and that was when he might have still been drugged somewhat.

No, he was not drugged. The novel clearly stated that Scourge had stopped using physical methods of torture, instead using mental ones (on Revan):

The abrupt ending to their conversation and the impeding prolonged absence were intended as punishment; his interrogator had long ago replaced physical torture with the supposed mental anguish of isolation.

-- Taken from The Old Republic: Revan

He lost mostly due to Scourge's betrayal.

What? He already been overpowered before and was saved by T3, and that was still not enough, and he had to be saved again by Meetra Surik:

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

--- Taken from The Old Republic: Revan

The fact that the Emperor failed to react to both of these quickly (he barely did for T3, and was surprised by Meetra's attack [which could have killed him at the expense of Revan's life]) is further proof of his shoddy awareness. Unimpressive combat feats, again.

And he is stated as being equally proficient in both sides of the Force, something Jedi Masters are not.

His proficiency in either side of the Force? Revan lacks the true skill of a Jedi Master or a Sith Lord, he is an attempt to blend between them, but is a failure nonetheless. This point shouldn't be brought up considering Revan's supposed "mastery of both sides" (no, he did not master either side of the Force, he simply walked it) is nothing special. His supposed Light Side mastery is not special. His supposed Dark Side mastery was not any better.

Revan'spower levels aren't what I'm going for here so much as his military genius, which is considered quality. That and, again, he's leading the cavalry in the last round, not the last round entirely.

Yes, I know that. That's one of the only good things about Revan that isn't actually 100% overrated. But there are better commanders. In any sense, the Vong stop at 5, so they won't get to the last round in the first place. I think 5 and 7 should be swapped around.

@ShootingNova: Though they no longer used physical tortures against Revan they did use drugs to suppress his ability to use the Force, I believe that is what he is talking about.

Probably stops at 5. Don't see those before that winning.

@ShootingNova: All fair points, though I say again, Revan's forces are the reinforcements in the seventh round. The seventh round consists of several other forces besides.

@JediXMan: Keep in mind, they get no rest or replenishing between fights, and Thrawn is a military genius. I'd say after non-stop warfare against three separate factions in quick succession, they're not beating the Clone Army backed up by a Jedi Order around equal in power level to the NJO-era one after the kind of losses they would have suffered by that point.

@shroudofsorrow: I addressed that already.

@guttridgeb: He was definitely using the Force (and very well, to normal standards) against the Emperor. It had been a few days and Revan had been meditating that time, and so on. In fact, he received a Force Vision of Meetra right after his conversation with Scourge, if I recall correctly.

@JediXMan said:

Probably stops at 5. Don't see those before that winning.

Exactly.

@ShootingNova said:

@shroudofsorrow: I addressed that already.

If you already addressed it, why did you suggest I switch 5 and 7 around when I've already made clear that Revan's forces don't make up all of Round 7?

@guttridgeb: He was definitely using the Force (and very well, to normal standards) against the Emperor. It had been a few days and Revan had been meditating that time, and so on. In fact, he received a Force Vision of Meetra right after his conversation with Scourge, if I recall correctly.

I'm confused. First you described Revan as if he were a bottom-feeder, now you're saying he used the Force well. I maintain that he's equally proficient in the Light and Dark Side, but you claim he's a failure at blending the two. But you also said he was using the Force well against the Emperor. Where do you put him on the SW food chain?

@shroudofsorrow: I said I addressed it being not only Revan in the last round. To me, it seems like 5 is much more powerful than 7. So it should be swapped around.

I never said anything about him using the Force well as in very, very proficiently. I meant well as in to normal standards (which I already said in that post). So I meant he could use his Force power to normal standards (standards for him, of course).

If I consider every being in SW, Revan wouldn't even make top 20. Possibly not even 30.

@ShootingNova said:

@shroudofsorrow: I said I addressed it being not only Revan in the last round. To me, it seems like 5 is much more powerful than 7. So it should be swapped around.

I never said anything about him using the Force well as in very, very proficiently. I meant well as in to normal standards (which I already said in that post). So I meant he could use his Force power to normal standards (standards for him, of course).

If I consider every being in SW, Revan wouldn't even make top 20. Possibly not even 30.

You think the Empire by itself is better then the CIS, New Republic, Old Republic, Mandalorians, and Imperial Remnant all working together? I mean, I think the Empire is powerful, but more powerful than five factions working together? Two of which have entire Jedi Orders backing them up?

I'd put Revan in the Top 30 at least, but that's just me. Who would you put as the Top 20?

@shroudofsorrow: Yes, because DE Palpatine can solo fleets with Wormholes, and can use the Death Star also. If you're adding all the Jedi Orders in, then that's different because then they win.

I've made a lot of these lists, and they vary over time.

1, 2, 3, 4: The Bedlam Spirits (there are four)

5, 6, 7, 8: The Ones of Mortis, and Abeloth

9. Luke Skywalker

10. Palpatine

11-20 are debatable, but I think you should be able to imagine Revan not even coming close to that. Top 30 is a possibility, but he could very well fail in that as well.

@ShootingNova: DE Sidious is in Round 6, not 5.

Personally, I'd think spots 11-16 would be filled by (in no particular order): Yoda, Mace Windu, Starkiller/Galen Marek, Kyp Durron, Darth Bane, and Exar Kun.

@shroudofsorrow: Okay.

And for your list, Galen Marek is severely overrated. Not only that, but Darth Bane as well. Sure, he's quite powerful regarding the Force, but his saber feats are lacking. He has only beaten a mere apprentice (Sirak) and someone who can't even wield a lightsaber properly (Hetton) in lightsaber combat. IIRC, he probably beat Farfalla as well, but Farfalla has no impressive feats at all.

Where is Darth Plagueis? Caedus?

Yoda and Exar Kun are possibilities. Personally, i don't see Bane, Mace or Starkiller in the 11-16. Plagueis and Caedus would be, as Nova said. I'd argue Jaina Solo is as well. After all, she beat Caedus, and if Caedus is on the list shouldn't she be? Also, what about Nomi Sunrider? I don't know much, but she sounds impressive

@JamesKM716 said:

Yoda and Exar Kun are possibilities. Personally, i don't see Bane, Mace or Starkiller in the 11-16. Plagueis and Caedus would be, as Nova said. I'd argue Jaina Solo is as well. After all, she beat Caedus, and if Caedus is on the list shouldn't she be? Also, what about Nomi Sunrider? I don't know much, but she sounds impressive

Yoda and Kun are definitely in the 11-16 range.

Caedus let Jaina win. At least that's what I was told when I tried to make the same argument. And now I quote:

"She only beat him though PIS (Plot-Induced-Stupidity), sneak attacks and previously injuring him. And he did let her kill him."

Perhaps that is wrong, but last time I tried to make a case for Jaina, that was the kind of response I got.

Bane is a powerful Dark Force user in his own right, and the same is true of Starkiller. What's wrong with him? He got the better of Emperor Palpatine did he not? That and he is a total beast with the Force.

I don't think Nomi Sunrider has really had enough showings for me to judge her one way or the other.

@ShootingNova said:

@shroudofsorrow: Okay.

And for your list, Galen Marek is severely overrated. Not only that, but Darth Bane as well. Sure, he's quite powerful regarding the Force, but his saber feats are lacking. He has only beaten a mere apprentice (Sirak) and someone who can't even wield a lightsaber properly (Hetton) in lightsaber combat. IIRC, he probably beat Farfalla as well, but Farfalla has no impressive feats at all.

Where is Darth Plagueis? Caedus?

I say again, what's wrong with Starkiller? He has plenty of impressive showings.

Caedus struggled against Mara Jade and only beat her via trickery. I suppose I would put him and Plagueis (who I know next to nothing about) as 17 and 18.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jacen Solo temporarily become "the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record" during the Yuuzhan Vong crisis? Or was that just gross exaggeration? I'm just curious to know.

Oh, and I figured I point out how off-topic this thread has become...

@shroudofsorrow said:

@JamesKM716 said:

Yoda and Exar Kun are possibilities. Personally, i don't see Bane, Mace or Starkiller in the 11-16. Plagueis and Caedus would be, as Nova said. I'd argue Jaina Solo is as well. After all, she beat Caedus, and if Caedus is on the list shouldn't she be? Also, what about Nomi Sunrider? I don't know much, but she sounds impressive

Yoda and Kun are definitely in the 11-16 range.

Caedus let Jaina win. At least that's what I was told when I tried to make the same argument. And now I quote:

"She only beat him though PIS (Plot-Induced-Stupidity), sneak attacks and previously injuring him. And he did let her kill him."

Perhaps that is wrong, but last time I tried to make a case for Jaina, that was the kind of response I got.

Bane is a powerful Dark Force user in his own right, and the same is true of Starkiller. What's wrong with him? He got the better of Emperor Palpatine did he not? That and he is a total beast with the Force.

I don't think Nomi Sunrider has really had enough showings for me to judge her one way or the other.

@ShootingNova said:

@shroudofsorrow: Okay.

And for your list, Galen Marek is severely overrated. Not only that, but Darth Bane as well. Sure, he's quite powerful regarding the Force, but his saber feats are lacking. He has only beaten a mere apprentice (Sirak) and someone who can't even wield a lightsaber properly (Hetton) in lightsaber combat. IIRC, he probably beat Farfalla as well, but Farfalla has no impressive feats at all.

Where is Darth Plagueis? Caedus?

I say again, what's wrong with Starkiller? He has plenty of impressive showings.

Caedus struggled against Mara Jade and only beat her via trickery. I suppose I would put him and Plagueis (who I know next to nothing about) as 17 and 18.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jacen Solo temporarily become "the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record" during the Yuuzhan Vong crisis? Or was that just gross exaggeration? I'm just curious to know.

Oh, and I figured I point out how off-topic this thread has become...

Cool. Ah, i've heard that. I gave up on Legacy of the Force after Betrayal. But i thought that she beat him and then he coulda defended himself, but chose not to. Idk something like that.

Bane is a legendary force user, but not necesarilly powerful. Who has he actually beaten by himself of his own abilities? its a very short list.... Starkiller, i don't really know. You'll have to take that up with Nova and JXM.

And i don't really know about Nomi much either to be honest.

I think Caedus increased in strength after he killed Mara. Plus he fought Luke 1v1 and didn't get annihilated.

Jacen Solo gained oneness with the Force during the final battle, which only a few people have done in Star Wars history. But Luke is one of those people, having done it multiple times.

I thought about pointing that out too, but i liked where the discussion was going, lol

@shroudofsorrow said:

Yoda and Kun are definitely in the 11-16 range.

Yes, I know.

Caedus let Jaina win. At least that's what I was told when I tried to make the same argument.

Not really. If you're referring to their final showdown, he had already been stabbed prior to them actually duelling.

And now I quote:

"She only beat him though PIS (Plot-Induced-Stupidity), sneak attacks and previously injuring him. And he did let her kill him."

Perhaps that is wrong, but last time I tried to make a case for Jaina, that was the kind of response I got.

LOL.

Bane is a powerful Dark Force user in his own right

Yes, but he is overrated.

, and the same is true of Starkiller. What's wrong with him? He got the better of Emperor Palpatine did he not? That and he is a total beast with the Force.

No, he isn't. What? No, Palpatine could have killed him before he could even react. Palpatine totally pulled off that battle for the sake of turning him to the Dark Side. It was obvious (especially if you read the novelization) considering Marek even admitted Palpatine's ploy.

I say again, what's wrong with Starkiller? He has plenty of impressive showings.

No, he doesn't. At all.

Caedus struggled against Mara Jade and only beat her via trickery. I suppose I would put him and Plagueis (who I know next to nothing about) as 17 and 18.

Yes, and? I suggest reading the Plagueis novel or something, because Plagueis is very powerful. Certainly not 17/18. Above 15. Caedus was able to fair very well against Luke (yes, I know he possessed an advantage at that time, and Luke tends to hold back).

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jacen Solo temporarily become "the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record" during the Yuuzhan Vong crisis? Or was that just gross exaggeration? I'm just curious to know.

Temporarily, because he achieved Oneness. Which is very rare and done involuntarily. However, he was not the most powerful manifestation of the Force, simply the most powerful Jedi on record. The most powerful Force beings are the Bedlam Spirits, which are omnipotent.

Oh, and I figured I point out how off-topic this thread has become...

Indeed.

@ShootingNova said:

Not really. If you're referring to their final showdown, he had already been stabbed prior to them actually duelling.

Ah. Well, again, I was just going with what I was told last time I attempted to argue in favor of LotF Jaina. Where would you put her on an SW scale?

@ShootingNova said:

Yes, but he is overrated.

Hmm...could he still make the Top 20?

@ShootingNova said:

No, he isn't. What? No, Palpatine could have killed him before he could even react. Palpatine totally pulled off that battle for the sake of turning him to the Dark Side. It was obvious (especially if you read the novelization) considering Marek even admitted Palpatine's ploy.

No, he doesn't. At all.

Wasn't the whole point of the TFU franchise to show someone going all out with the Force? You know, to the point of effortlessly killing Rancors, crushing AT-STs, and unleashing massive Force pushes and Lightning storms?

I ain't gonna bring up the Star Destroyer just because that's a whole other debate that I'd rather not get into. But even barring the Star Destroyer I feel Starkiller's Force feats are impressive.

@ShootingNova said:

Yes, and? I suggest reading the Plagueis novel or something, because Plagueis is very powerful. Certainly not 17/18. Above 15. Caedus was able to fair very well against Luke (yes, I know he possessed an advantage at that time, and Luke tends to hold back).

I sort of knew Caedus got better after his fight with Mara. I just felt obliged to point it out to stress that he's not immortal.

Feats for Plagueis please?

@ShootingNova said:

Temporarily, because he achieved Oneness. Which is very rare and done involuntarily. However, he was not the most powerful manifestation of the Force, simply the most powerful Jedi on record. The most powerful Force beings are the Bedlam Spirits, which are omnipotent.

Ah. Cool story. But one question: if Luke has achieved the same oneness before, why was Jacen's moment of doing so billed as the single most powerful manifestation of the Force from a Jedi ever?

Finally, one last thing: Vaapad and Shatterpoint count as Force abilities don't they? If so, then those alone should get Mace in the Top 20, if not necessarily high up.

@shroudofsorrow said:

Ah. Well, again, I was just going with what I was told last time I attempted to argue in favor of LotF Jaina. Where would you put her on an SW scale?

Depends. My scales always change.

Hmm...could he still make the Top 20?

Possibly.

Wasn't the whole point of the TFU franchise to show someone going all out with the Force? You know, to the point of effortlessly killing Rancors, crushing AT-STs, and unleashing massive Force pushes and Lightning storms?

TFU was garbage. And no, he was never effortlessly doing any of that.

I ain't gonna bring up the Star Destroyer just because that's a whole other debate that I'd rather not get into. But even barring the Star Destroyer I feel Starkiller's Force feats are impressive.

The SD isn't even eligible since it's not even impressive. All he did was guide it towards the Junk Cannon (it was already falling) so he did not pull it down.

I sort of knew Caedus got better after his fight with Mara. I just felt obliged to point it out to stress that he's not immortal.

I never said he was immortal.

Feats for Plagueis please?

Minimizing his presence in the Force, battling in a forest so quickly that as he dashed, his lightsaber would have appeared to onlookers as a thunderbolt, has kicked through people's torsos while they were wearing armour, sent people flying across rooms with physical force, crushed people's skulls, cast Force Lightning to reduce bones to ash, practically atomized half a dozen people simultaneously, supported collapsing mine ceiling, and subsequently stacking said ceiling after throwing it down, shook the floor enough to knock down multiple people, and so on. Not necessarily that's all, but something akin to this (or exactly this) and Plagueis is certainly top three in ranking for Sith Lords, I believe. Incredibly impressive granted virtually all of these feats came from one novel.

Ah. Cool story. But one question: if Luke has achieved the same oneness before, why was Jacen's moment of doing so billed as the single most powerful manifestation of the Force from a Jedi ever?

Because it did turn Jacen into the most powerful Jedi ever. So they simply stated facts.

Finally, one last thing: Vaapad and Shatterpoint count as Force abilities don't they? If so, then those alone should get Mace in the Top 20, if not necessarily high up.

Vaapad is a variation of the seventh lightsaber form, not a Force power. Shatterpoint, however, is a Force ability. I say Mace could probably make it into top 20.

@JamesKM716 said:

Yoda and Exar Kun are possibilities. Personally, i don't see Bane, Mace or Starkiller in the 11-16. Plagueis and Caedus would be, as Nova said. I'd argue Jaina Solo is as well. After all, she beat Caedus, and if Caedus is on the list shouldn't she be? Also, what about Nomi Sunrider? I don't know much, but she sounds impressive

Nomi Sunrider lacks impressive feats. All she knows that is impressive is Sever Force, and Vima Sunrider knew that too, and in turn, taught that to Meetra Surik (although she warned her against its usage). Others (including Vrook Lamar, Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar) also know this ability.

Jaina didn't beat Caedus, really.

@ShootingNova said:

TFU was garbage. And no, he was never effortlessly doing any of that.

Not a TFU fan eh? What was wrong with it? I enjoyed the first game and the novelization myself personally. TFU II was definitely a disappointment though.

@ShootingNova said:

Minimizing his presence in the Force, battling in a forest so quickly that as he dashed, his lightsaber would have appeared to onlookers as a thunderbolt, has kicked through people's torsos while they were wearing armour, sent people flying across rooms with physical force, crushed people's skulls, cast Force Lightning to reduce bones to ash, practically atomized half a dozen people simultaneously, supported collapsing mine ceiling, and subsequently stacking said ceiling after throwing it down, shook the floor enough to knock down multiple people, and so on. Not necessarily that's all, but something akin to this (or exactly this) and Plagueis is certainly top three in ranking for Sith Lords, I believe. Incredibly impressive granted virtually all of these feats came from one novel.

OK then. I'm convinced now.

@ShootingNova said:

Because it did turn Jacen into the most powerful Jedi ever. So they simply stated facts.

Oh. But you also said that Luke has achieved the same "oneness" before. I'm confused.

@shroudofsorrow said:

Not a TFU fan eh? What was wrong with it? I enjoyed the first game and the novelization myself personally. TFU II was definitely a disappointment though.

TFU wrecked things. Especially at the end. The Rebels actually saw the Death Star.

OK then. I'm convinced now.

You should be.

Oh. But you also said that Luke has achieved the same "oneness" before. I'm confused.

Just because you achieve Oneness does not make you as powerful as any other being who achieves Oneness. There are levels. In fact, anybody who dies and becomes "One with the Force" has practically achieved Oneness.

Anyways, good day to you sir. I'm off to bed now. Waaayyyyy too tired.