This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for sungsam
#1 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

Yog Sothoth vs Monitor the Overvoid

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

RULES:

  • Descriptions and Implied Feats from CLASSIC Lovecraft ONLY for Yog Sothoth.
  • Comic Publication Descriptions and Implied Feats on official Comic Books and Guides ONLY for Monitor Mind. Composite DC Cosmology is permitted.

Debate as to who of these Cosmic Extra-Cosmological Containers can contain the other. Who contains more infinities, etc.

Avatar image for sungsam
#2 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

Sungsam marked this as the best answer

I have concluded the position of my thread. I deem that the Overvoid would be the winner.

LOVECRAFT MULTIVERSE EXISTS INSIDE OF DC Overvoid Omniverse

UNDENIABLE EXPLICIT Evidence for this: LOVECRAFT by Keith Giffen (Written Prominent DC Writer who writes for N52) published by Vertigo.

by Hans Rodionoff,Keith GiffenEnrique Breccia (Illustrator)John Carpenter (Introduction)

No Caption Provided

Synopsis: The Necronomicon. Cthulu, The Unnamable. The cursed town of Arkham. These icons of horror sprang from the imagination of H. P. Lovecraft. But consider this: what if the imaginary terrors that Lovecraft wrote about were not imaginary at all?

Lovecraft's BOOKS are written by an HP Lovecraft DC self inside of DC's Meta-Omniverse. Meaning that every Lovecraft Book including the so called "Infinite Dimensional" gates of the Silver Key exists inside one of the books of Lucien's Library in the Dreaming.

The OVERVOID is the final container of everything DC published, as such, it contains also all the stories of Lovecraft within it. INCLUDING Yog Sothoth and Azathoth EXISTS as inferior entities (just as powerful as their OG counterparts) below the Overvoid and possibly even below Dream in power.

Since everything DC Lovecraft imagines are just stories in the Dreaming and to the Overvoid.

This means that DC will win and destroy Lovecraft in every High Tier Cosmic debate ever.

@einefaust Einefaust, you and I don't agree on a lot of things, but we both defend DC. Might want to use this to your advantage.

MODS, you may close my thread for the OP has already decided a winner in months.

Avatar image for nwgzsjuwhm96y2
#3 Posted by NWgzsjUwhM96Y2 (3826 posts) - - Show Bio

Going by respect threads and the like both contain equal infinity (in terms of energy/mass), the smallest one. The second level of infinity would be a universe for every real number while the first is a universe for every integer. Neither multiverse is specified to be the second infinity or higher. In terms of volume both contain an infinite dimensional multiverse and both are above that multiverse.

In power they are equal.

In size they are equal.

They are both above physical existence.

They are pretty much the same.

Avatar image for helloman
#4 Posted by Helloman (29886 posts) - - Show Bio

The Overmonitor wins.

Online
Avatar image for zeromuseg
#5 Posted by ZeromusEG (165 posts) - - Show Bio

Overmonitor was writen out of canon two reboot ago.

Avatar image for yamiyodare
#6 Posted by Yamiyodare (1264 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate or The Overmonitor wins.

Online
Avatar image for daxnovu
#7 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Monitor Mind.

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

Avatar image for soratoumiga
#8 Posted by Soratoumiga (2574 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate or Yog-Sothoth. Pretty interesting match.

Online
Avatar image for tourneymaster
#9 Posted by TourneyMaster (1555 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate or Yog-Sothoth. Pretty interesting match.

Avatar image for sungsam
#10 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

Avatar image for sebastian_rommel
#11 Posted by Sebastian_Rommel (195 posts) - - Show Bio

Sothoth wins as he is completely outer versal and omnipotent.

Avatar image for sungsam
#12 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@sebastian_rommel said:

Sothoth wins as he is completely outer versal and omnipotent.

Yog is below Azathoth, and is just its dream. So it doesn't even transcend the framework reality that comprises another being's dream which is a location in on itself, so this cannot be true. Secondly, again, it's below Azathoth (again) and cannot be Omnipotent.

You can argue that Azathoth is Absolutely Outerversal and Absolutely Omnipotent (I still have some reserves on the issue of Azzy's Omnipotence but that's another subject), I can't see the same for Yog. If it's below something and restricted to a dreamed existence, it cannot be Absolute Infinite and cannot be Absolute Omnipotent or Absolute Outerversal.

My personal perception of Outerversal is being outside of EVERYTHING, like a True Omnilock.

That said, while I appreciate your investment to answer, I have to point out needed neutral corrections to both sides.

Avatar image for jamespacker
#13 Posted by jamespacker (542 posts) - - Show Bio

Overmonitor

Avatar image for sebastian_rommel
#15 Posted by Sebastian_Rommel (195 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Well, if it is in the dream of omnipotent then it should also be omnipotent, as omnipotent is omniscient and omnipresent.

Avatar image for gaoron
#16 Posted by Gaoron (8848 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for sungsam
#17 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Well, if it is in the dream of omnipotent then it should also be omnipotent, as omnipotent is omniscient and omnipresent.

I think Nigh-Omnipotent Yog Sothoth is the description you're looking for. If you are Omnipotent over the rest of your verse save for the TRUE OMNIPOTENT, that is just Nigh-Omnipotence. Then Yog Sothoth is just Nigh-Omnipotent.

Avatar image for helloman
#18 Posted by Helloman (29886 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate, they are both omniversal. It's also a mismatch because of what would happen in the battle.

Online
Avatar image for sebastian_rommel
#19 Posted by Sebastian_Rommel (195 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for sungsam
#20 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

Sebastian, I have a question for you.

Do you agree that True Omnipotence can exist in fiction? Like do you agree like TOAA (before he was retconned) and Azathoth and the such are Omnipotent?

Avatar image for sebastian_rommel
#21 Posted by Sebastian_Rommel (195 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Yes and no. They can and probably can’t. If they are just characters then they are by no means omnipotents. But if they based of some real gods who are omnipotents then they are omnipotents but they have to be written omnipotent. That is it.

Avatar image for caocao
#22 Edited by CaoCao (1438 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

Since everything DC Lovecraft imagines are just stories in the Dreaming and to the Overvoid.

Is this even canon to the original Lovecraft, or how works "Other verses in other stories" without the permission of the original writer and his friends? I am just curious, because i can make my stories and includes DC, Marvel, Lovecraft, etc. on the lowest stages of the stairway. Know they are below Infinite, because another verse makes his infinite above their infinite o.O

Avatar image for sungsam
#23 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@caocao said:
@sungsam said:

Since everything DC Lovecraft imagines are just stories in the Dreaming and to the Overvoid.

Is this even canon to the original Lovecraft, or how works "Other verses in other stories" without the permission of the original writer and his friends?

That's like asking if DC has the permission to use Zeus or Odin from the original Greek Mythology or if Greek Mythology sees this as canon. Neither matters. If anything, DC made more powerful versions of the characters and nobody batted an eye.

Cthulu Mythos is a public fiction, and anyone can use it. Copy and Import it into their verse with no differences, other than being part of a greater Cosmology.

But what DC did is different. If you read the Lovecraft DC Comic, it is that DC literally took HP Lovecraft himself into DC as a character, based pretty much twists on his real life (like Assassin's Creed levels of historical twist) backgrounding his real life fictional works.

Nobody cares if Assassins Creed has stories about George Washington in it, emulating his real life patterns of his life, same how Lovecraft divorcing and writing his works shouldn't be a big deal if it also happened in DC and it all being implied just a Nightmare.

Every classic OG Lovecraft story exists exactly as they are, perfect copies inside DC Multiverse as Nightmare Stories within the Dream Library Lovecraft is in fact, imported now as a DC Human. I cannot see why the DC Azzy and Yog Sothoth would be weaker than the original Yog Sothoth if both characters take from the same source material, albeit one in an OG independent form and one in an imported form.

Demonbane is a totally different issue because we know they totally portray the Outer Gods as different. What DC did is different because they imported literally Craft into it. So we know it's accurate.

Perhaps Lovecraft should have written his works in a time when copyright was a real thing already. Or copyrighted his own existence so that comic books will not write twisting stories about his real life.

That's the beauty of it, your argument only applies to copyrighted fictions.

Anywho, I only wanted to "shut the door" on this thread.

Avatar image for caocao
#24 Posted by CaoCao (1438 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@caocao said:
@sungsam said:

Since everything DC Lovecraft imagines are just stories in the Dreaming and to the Overvoid.

Is this even canon to the original Lovecraft, or how works "Other verses in other stories" without the permission of the original writer and his friends?

That's like asking if DC has the permission to use Zeus or Odin from the original Greek Mythology or if Greek Mythology sees this as canon. Neither matters. If anything, DC made more powerful versions of the characters and nobody batted an eye.

Cthulu Mythos is a public fiction, and anyone can use it. Copy and Import it into their verse with no differences, other than being part of a greater Cosmology.

But what DC did is different. If you read the Lovecraft DC Comic, it is that DC literally took HP Lovecraft himself into DC as a character, based pretty much twists on his real life (like Assassin's Creed levels of historical twist) backgrounding his real life fictional works.

Nobody cares if Assassins Creed has stories about George Washington in it, emulating his real life patterns of his life, same how Lovecraft divorcing and writing his works shouldn't be a big deal if it also happened in DC and it all being implied just a Nightmare.

Every classic OG Lovecraft story exists exactly as they are, perfect copies inside DC Multiverse as Nightmare Stories within the Dream Library Lovecraft is in fact, imported now as a DC Human. I cannot see why the DC Azzy and Yog Sothoth would be weaker than the original Yog Sothoth if both characters take from the same source material, albeit one in an OG independent form and one in an imported form.

Demonbane is a totally different issue because we know they totally portray the Outer Gods as different. What DC did is different because they imported literally Craft into it. So we know it's accurate.

Perhaps Lovecraft should have written his works in a time when copyright was a real thing already. Or copyrighted his own existence so that comic books will not write twisting stories about his real life.

That's the beauty of it, your argument only applies to copyrighted fictions.

Anywho, I only wanted to "shut the door" on this thread.

Ok, so i can make my own more powerfull story xD

Avatar image for sungsam
#25 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@caocao said:
@sungsam said:

Since everything DC Lovecraft imagines are just stories in the Dreaming and to the Overvoid.

I am just curious, because i can make my stories and includes DC, Marvel, Lovecraft, etc. on the lowest stages of the stairway. Know they are below Infinite, because another verse makes his infinite above their infinite o.O

You could, but then you'd be sued for some of that. Because DC and Marvel are copyrights, and Lovecraft Mythos isn't.

Lovecraft cannot sue DC Comic writers. He probably wouldn't even care given his lack of the concept of copyright during his life. You could also import Lovecraft, but I don't see how that's relevant in fight of Lovecraft vs DC though, in a forum strictly restricted to well known fictions in battle debates.

The Overvoid is just more than capable of soloing Cthulu Mythos because he already contains exact replicas of the verse inside of itself.

Avatar image for caocao
#26 Posted by CaoCao (1438 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:
@caocao said:
@sungsam said:

Since everything DC Lovecraft imagines are just stories in the Dreaming and to the Overvoid.

I am just curious, because i can make my stories and includes DC, Marvel, Lovecraft, etc. on the lowest stages of the stairway. Know they are below Infinite, because another verse makes his infinite above their infinite o.O

You could, but then you'd be sued for some of that. Because DC and Marvel are copyrights, and Lovecraft Mythos isn't.

Lovecraft cannot sue DC Comic writers. You could also import Lovecraft, I don't see how that's relevant in fight of Lovecraft vs DC though, in a forum strictly restricted to well known fictions in battle debates.

I agreed, but i didn´t see why people even using Lovecraft. That isn´t even a usefull verse if it comes to battle debates, because it works totally differend. DC probably makes Lovecraft more powerfull/usefull for such debates.

Avatar image for sungsam
#27 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@caocao:

Ok, so i can make my own more powerfull story xD

That is actually the reason why I am on this forum. The reason why I defend DC? has nothing to do with me fanboying for DC, (there are tons of threads of me tearing DC apart on this forum) but because DC's Cosmology is so complexingly self contradicting, interpreting it in new ideas gives me new personal ideas. While trying to find new aspects of it I can look upon it from.

My "activist" attitude, is just a side effect.

I agreed, but i didn´t see why people even using Lovecraft. That isn´t even a usefull verse if it comes to battle debates, because it works totally differend. DC probably makes Lovecraft more powerfull/usefull for such debates.

Lovecraft's Multiverse wasn't even using Quantum Cosmology yet while DC does and did, if anything, and you are 100% right dude. DC made Lovecraft probably more powerful by importing it, into DC's far more complex Multiverse.

Because at least those so called Lovecraftian "Infinite Dimensions" will actually have real Timeline Megaverses this time.

Avatar image for caocao
#28 Edited by CaoCao (1438 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

I agreed, but i didn´t see why people even using Lovecraft. That isn´t even a usefull verse if it comes to battle debates, because it works totally differend. DC probably makes Lovecraft more powerfull/usefull for such debates.

Lovecraft's Multiverse wasn't even using Quantum Cosmology yet while DC does and did, if anything, and you are 100% right dude. DC made Lovecraft probably more powerful by importing it, into DC's far more complex Multiverse.

Because at least those so called Lovecraftian "Infinite Dimensions" will actually have real Timeline Megaverses this time.

But how it works? We have Lovecraft inside DC. Does that mean every lore of lovecraft is allowed, or just "DC-Lovecraft"? I remember they are Lovecraft inside Dr. Who and The Dark Tower as well. They are also many different books about the Lovecraftverse, but many of them aren´t even from Lovecraft himself. Does that mean the Lovecraftverse is an Omniverse as well, since they exist in different stories? I don´t realy understand the cosmology behind. What can we use in battles and what we can use not, if we have a verse which exist in different other verses with different rules?

Also it shouldn´t sound that i am insulting you that you are a DC fanboy. That wasn´t my ulterior motive, haha.

Avatar image for yasindermann
#29 Edited by Yasindermann (1163 posts) - - Show Bio

When we go after cosmology, the overmonitor contains AT LEAST a infinite-dimensional multiverse. @sungsam Like you and I said, Yog-Sothoth contains infinite multiverses, which would make him baseline 6-dimensional. It was said that Yog-Sothoth transcends finite dimensions and finite dimensional beings, which is nothing compared to infinite-dimensional.

Wouldn't the overmonitor stomp then?

Avatar image for kushido
#30 Posted by Kushido (37 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for sungsam
#31 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@caocao said:
@sungsam said:

I agreed, but i didn´t see why people even using Lovecraft. That isn´t even a usefull verse if it comes to battle debates, because it works totally differend. DC probably makes Lovecraft more powerfull/usefull for such debates.

Lovecraft's Multiverse wasn't even using Quantum Cosmology yet while DC does and did, if anything, and you are 100% right dude. DC made Lovecraft probably more powerful by importing it, into DC's far more complex Multiverse.

Because at least those so called Lovecraftian "Infinite Dimensions" will actually have real Timeline Megaverses this time.

But how it works? We have Lovecraft inside DC. Does that mean every lore of lovecraft is allowed, or just "DC-Lovecraft". I remember they are Lovecraft inside Dr. Who and The Dark Tower as well. They are also many different books about the Lovecraftverse, but many of them aren´t even from Lovecraft himself. Does that mean the Lovecraftverse is an Omniverse as well, since they exist in different stories? I don´t realy understand the cosmology behind. What can we use in battles and what we can use not, if we have a verse which exist in different other verses with different rules?

Also it shouldn´t sound that i am insulting you that you are a DC fanboy. That wasn´t my ulterior motive, haha.

No no no no, dude, no, I wasn't offended. I just like to explain myself, I knew you had no ulterior motives (I was saying that because some people might go to my thread here and say I had a winner in mind".

Well, it's same thing how Zeus can exist Marvel, DC and GOW. Public fictions are like gravity, and gravity is a concept used in all fictions. Is Greek Mythology an Omniverse because it can be copied in other fictions? Well, yes, but in a different way. Consider Greek Mythology as a guest archetypal fiction, just as Lovecraft is.

But that is why Lovecraft will never stand its ground against DT, DC and Umineko. It being a public POPULAR fiction means that other verses can LEGALLY copy its entire verse and incorporate it into a larger newer cosmology. It will always lose.

This is something that VSBattles was aware of, they just have garbage eating stipulations not to accept it. But on the Vine, they should be accepted. God of War can have Zeus, but DC can't have Yog Sothoth? It makes no sense to me.

Gan and CK should be Tier 0 since they also contain Copyverses of Lovecraft in the Dark Tower, since Stephen King has written mythos and they exist in the Dark Tower. They just don't want to accept it because the Lovecrafters have instilled a cult of pressure among Battle Boards.

@yasindermann said:

When we go after cosmology, the overmonitor contains AT LEAST a infinite-dimensional multiverse. @sungsam Like you and I said, Yog-Sothoth contains infinite multiverses, which would make him baseline 6-dimensional. It was said that Yog-Sothoth transcends finite dimensions and finite dimensional beings, which is nothing compared to infinite-dimensional.

Wouldn't the overmonitor stomp then?

The Overvoid contains everything in DC, metafictionally, ensuring that a Composite DC Cosmology is always possible. That is why the prospect of "Is Composite DC okay or not?" a tricky prospect, because both answers of yes and no are correct.

Even using the interpretation that Outer Gods are above Infinite-D (which I already refuted many times and is not true) it does nothing, because unfortunately for Lovecraft, they have no Quantum Multiverse infinitely instantly multiplying itself in its lowest levels scaling to the true Infinite Dimensions like the Sphere of the Gods and beyond Infinite Dimensions structures like Limbo, Monitor Sphere and the Source Wall.

Their "Infinite Dimensional Multiverse" can literally be surpassed in size by a single self-generating Universe in the DC Metaverse and any Quantum Multiverse fiction like Umineko and Marvel can do the same.

No matter how you interpret Yoggy though, the Overvoid already contains a carbon copy as powerful as the original within one of the books in the Lucien Library.

I already decided a winner and would like this thread to be locked in fact.

Avatar image for sungsam
#32 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for weebbicboi
#33 Posted by weebbicboi (1168 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate imo

Avatar image for gaoron
#34 Edited by Gaoron (8848 posts) - - Show Bio

Stealmate or Yog

Avatar image for sungsam
#35 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if Lovecraft was Infinite Dimensional (which I already debunked), it would mean nothing for the fight.

Because DC has an infinitely instantly expanding Multiverse below the Infinite Dimensions of DC. So DC's Infinite Dimensions infinitely multiplies itself. And the Overvoid completely engulfs and contains everything in DC (including its Infinitely Expanding Infinite-D Multiverse) by endlessness.

And at least every Universe in DC is actually infinite in size, instantly multiples into new infinite generations of Multiverses (Lovecraft doesn't do this).

And DC has a copy of the entire Lovecraft Lore as per I just explained.

DC Infinite-D that is Compositely Canon to the Overvoid > Infinity beyond Infinity > Fanfiction Interpretation Lovecraft Infinite-D.

Overvoid has superior feats.