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#1 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio
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Rules:

  • No VS Battles logic.
  • Scale to cosmology.
  • You can low-ball, mid-ball, and high-ball, as long as none of it is wank or downplay.

People whose input I'd appreciate (though anyone is welcome to chime in). @sungsam@etriel@yasindermann

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#2 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

another quote proves that lovecrafts verse is really not that impressive. look.

The space-time globule which we recognize as the totality of all cosmic entity is only an atom in the genuine infinity which is theirs.

a universe is just an atom to the infinite totality of the outer gods. meaning that crafts cosmology using this text is just baseline multiversal in size using this lowball interpretation. since it scales infinitely above a single space-time universe.

lowballing all of them, reinhard and gil spite because they have real feats. sorry everyone if im really not too active on this board whenever im called.

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#3 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Thanks for the input. Don't worry, I'm heavily against infinite-D Lovecraft wank. Me and Sung both have debunked it together multiple times against wankers.

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#4 Edited by Yasindermann (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Don't know much about Gilgamesh. From that what I've heard, Yog is just a baseline 6-dimensional being, who contains infinite multiverses. But Reinhard should beat that easily, because a hadou god with one taikyokou can manipulate the whole creation (That was 6-dimensional and had infinite multiverses at his peak in shinza bansho). With that, we can say that Reinhard with 90 taikyokou goes far beyond the baseline, which would scale him far stronger than Yog-Sothoth, who is just a infinite baseline 6-dimensional being by cosmology feats.

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#5 Posted by Yasindermann (1251 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann: Gilgamesh is 8-D with his most reasonable and likely interpretation (aka the mid-ball). Here's his RT.

And thanks for the input.

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#7 Posted by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7 Since I know you like DI.

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#8 Edited by Yasindermann (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Readed a little bit, but I'm lazy to read all of this, so here is my conclusion: Reinhard would ONLY win, if we highball both cosmologys to 10-D. Reinhard would win this, because he scales to 90+ infinite megaversal than, while Gilgamesh only scales to the baseline. When we use midball interpretation, than Gilgamesh lolstomps, because he would scale to multi-megaversal (8-D), while Reinhard, at the composite Shinza Bansho cosmology, is just infinite above infinite baseline multiversal and he has 90 taikyokou (6-dimensional).

So here: Reinhard (highballed)>>>>>>>>>>Gilgamesh (Highballed)>>>>>>>Gilgamesh (Mid-Balled)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Reinhard (Mid-Balled)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yog-Sothoth.

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#9 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

reinhard would scale 90 times of orders of immeasurable (not infinity, di debaters highball this to infinity) power per taikyoku value. only 1 is needed to be baseline multiversal. his body is literally its own multiverse. or at least carrying one. theyre like a combination of a reality warper and cosmic embodiment from marvel. instead with organized reality warping sets or "hax".

the only issue is that ambigious "24 dimension" barrier which is interpreted to be either 24 dimensions or higher dimensions. unless i know how those dimensions work, those dimensions are worthless. i dont like arguing from "multi interpretation' because debates become pointless and un-interactive that way.

remember that extra-dimensional space isnt even necessarily larger than a normal universe. (this is a mathematical fact. 5-dimensional space can roll up into tiny planck lengths) we give exceptions to marvel, umineko and co. because we know it works that way.

because even our bodies are 4-dimensional, because we exist in more than infinitesimal time. but we are not "universe level".

the taikyoku basically powers their scope, but none of them have megaversal feats. the best one could argue for them is the use of hyping their attack scope instead which is the place in-replacement for dimensional tiering application.

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#10 Posted by ovy7 (3298 posts) - - Show Bio

^ What etriel said. I would also add that Reinhard can summon his Legion, which numbers in the millions, and because of his Atziluth ability, each and everyone in his Legion gets boosted to his lvl. He can also use the abilities of the Longinus Order, with things like never missing, being always faster, power absorption, etc., all boosted to his lvl of course.

I'm not sure if any of those abilities are helpful tho, but I'm going with Reinhard just because he's one of my favorite villains (the dude's charisma and voice are God-tier).

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#11 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate obviously.

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#12 Edited by Yasindermann (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: No, dudes voice is outversal, because he speaks in a existence plane, that is beyond all time, dimensions & space.

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#13 Posted by Yasindermann (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: I have highballed the cosmology, because in the OT was stated I could do this, if I want. But under normal conditions, there are not megaversal, I agree.

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#14 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann said:

@ovy7: No, dudes voice is outversal, because he speaks in a existence plane, that is beyond all time, dimensions & space.

jiren is outerversal because he shook outerversal nothingness. so he 1-A.

fuck it. all characters in fiction are outerversal because they dont exist. so they exist outside of space and time.

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#15 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasindermann: @etriel@ovy7 Hm, well if Rein is 10-D, he wins handily, as I personally don't use 10-D to 11-D String Theory Gil high ball, as I find it to be headcanon wank.

If they are both 8-D though, I don't see Rein winning, as Gilgamesh has more abilities than all of DI, Umineko, and Lovecraft combined. Gilgamesh has one shotted an 8-D being with much more raw power than himself with one of his abilities (albeit his strongest one).

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I'm not declaring a winner overall, because if Rein is above 8-D without wank, he should win. If he is merely above baseline 8-D (but is still 8-D), then I don't see him or his army contending with Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon (which has possibly millions of haxed Noble Phantasms he can fire at will and is described as war itself) or Enuma Elish.

Also any arguments for Yog? Is there a non-wanked high ball that puts him above 6-D?

I'm glad this is turning out to be a productive thread though thanks to you guys giving actual informative input.

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#16 Posted by Yasindermann (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: No, there is just a weak text for Yog. Nothing more.

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#17 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: the only issue is that ambigious "24 dimension" barrier which is interpreted to be either 24 dimensions or higher dimensions. unless i know how those dimensions work, those dimensions are worthless. i dont like arguing from "multi interpretation' because debates become pointless and un-interactive that way.

Hm... Could you share the context behind the barrier? See, Gilgamesh to me is 8-D because he is above the Moon Cell, which had a barrier that isn't said to be eight dimensional, but cuts through eight dimensions. The reason I count these as higher dimensional is because the Moon Cell only talks about higher dimensions all the time, so they logically should be eight higher dimensions. Gilgamesh with feats though and statements is already been confirmed to be higher-dimensional and has a feat of destroying around maybe two infinite sized realms and scales to the being in control if it all. Since Fate/Extra CCC really only talks about higher dimensions and the fact that the main antagonist became even more higher-dimensional after bypasing that barrier and fusing with the Moon Cell core, is more than enough to confirm 8-D for me.

But what of the DI barrier? Can anyone send the scan if it isn't too much trouble? I'd like to see the context for myself.

i dont like arguing from "multi interpretation' because debates become pointless and un-interactive that way.

I had to put this, otherwise I'd know the winner by default if we all used the mid/standard-balled (Gilgamesh), which is against site rules. I wanted people to use different interpretations and try to validate them, thus making the outcomes different possibly.

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#18 Edited by Wanderez (2262 posts) - - Show Bio

Lets switch things up, lets make this a bit more fun. Who do you guys think would win according to vs battles tiering and standarts (not Gil ofc, hE's 5-A, hE'd GeT sToMpEd)?

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#19 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@wanderez: VS Battles use of dimensional tiering and their outerverse concept is objectively bad. Bringing up their lack of logic would ruin this thread.

VS Battles logic ironically puts Gilgamesh at High Outerverse Level, as he can one shot omni-lock beings above space-time. They hate Nasuverse though and have no experts, so they ignore this on purpose.

I'm pretty sure they have Rein over Yog though. Ask Ovy7.

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#20 Posted by Wanderez (2262 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak:

You're a wise creature. I shoulve not brought it up. They have Yog over Rein btw.

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#21 Posted by Yasindermann (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak@wanderez: They tiering is just bad....like we all explained. I'm mainly upset, because of the reason that characters are wanked because of VS battle wiki (Example: Elder god Demonbane, Hadou gods, Kratos (multiversal Kratos xD)) and because of the reason that some dudes downplay characters, because of of VS battle wiki. For example Odin, who is more than just multi galaxy.

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#22 Posted by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#23 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

Hm... Could you share the context behind the barrier? See, Gilgamesh to me is 8-D because he is above the Moon Cell, which had a barrier that isn't said to be eight dimensional, but cuts through eight dimensions. The reason I count these as higher dimensional is because the Moon Cell only talks about higher dimensions all the time, so they logically should be eight higher dimensions. Gilgamesh with feats though and statements is already been confirmed to be higher-dimensional and has a feat of destroying around maybe two infinite sized realms and scales to the being in control if it all. Since Fate/Extra CCC really only talks about higher dimensions and the fact that the main antagonist became even more higher-dimensional after bypasing that barrier and fusing with the Moon Cell core, is more than enough to confirm 8-D for me.

But what of the DI barrier? Can anyone send the scan if it isn't too much trouble? I'd like to see the context for myself.

higher dimensional spaces can literally roll up into tiny planck lengths zgt. a small 3-D cube the size of our hand will never reach the mass of an infinitely sized 2-dimensional plane. energy passes through dimensions regardless of dimensionality. higher dimensionality doesnt really infer greater energy to destroy at all.

this is a lie that vsbattles fed us for years. higher dimensional space isnt even necessarily bigger than a universe. there are many extra or higher-dimensional characters in fiction that are smaller than a universe and can be killed with 3-D weapons.

your body can be cut in half, electrons and blood pumping stopped by an infintesimally thin razor sharp 2-D razor saw. your 3-D body is divided by a razor 2-D plane dividing the flow of your internal organs and body in half.

so its not even true that dimensions > everything in fiction. that is the point that sung was trying to get at. cutting through higher dimensional space requires context as to how those dimensions work. and its durability. in question.

thats the reason why those masadanerds bringing up that 24 dimension barrier feat was pointless. it is most likely not higher dimensions on its own, and even if it was, it would still mean nothing.

with verses like warhammer and marvel? i can understand because their dimensions are non-physical abstract levels with serious qualitative superiority (not just quantitative). hence i know we cannot apply our logic to it. like how dc's 5th dimension is abstract imagination.

I had to put this, otherwise I'd know the winner by default if we all used the mid/standard-balled (Gilgamesh), which is against site rules. I wanted people to use different interpretations and try to validate them, thus making the outcomes different possibly.

maybe you can also consider paritying their dimensions just to see who wins what if. if thats the case

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#24 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: I already know this. Thing is, is that if higher dimensions are specifically implied to be infinitely superior to lower in a verse, then I think a barrier cutting through them should be the same unless implied otherwise (of course I don't know the context of DI though). I'm not arguing for or against the barrier.

I know dimensions work differently, as I've openly debunked VS Battles cross-verse dimensional tiering many times.

I'm saying if DI confirms that higher dimensions are infinitely above lower, then the barrier could count if it is cutting through higher dimensions and not extra/pocket dimensions. Again though, Idk the context in DI, so I have no comment and was merely questioning it.

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#25 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@etriel: I already know this. Thing is, is that if higher dimensions are specifically implied to be infinitely superior to lower in a verse, then I think a barrier cutting through them should be the same unless implied otherwise (of course I don't know the context of DI though). I'm not arguing for or against the barrier.

if the verse never states or implies that infinitely greater energy is needed to crack higher dimensional space (this is in fact, very mathematically illogical), there is no reason for us to think that higher dimensional feats are good feats for that verse in context.

higher dimensional space can be infinitely larger, that doesnt mean it needs more energy for parts of it to get destroyed than the previous geometric level below it. its just bigger.

even if that higher dimensional space is infinitely larger, that doesnt infer that it is infinitely more durable in energy durability than the lower dimension. be careful when you apply "infinitely superior". your body is made of the same physics as any higher dimensional space at default.

all that does, is increase your attack range, that doesnt mean anything about potency. the verses we talk about like marvel, umineko, dark tower and etc. are exempt from this trial, because we know each dimension is quality superior to the one level below it.

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#26 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: if the verse never states or implies that infinitely greater energy is needed to crack higher dimensional space (this is in fact, very mathematically illogical), there is no reason for us to think that higher dimensional feats are good feats for that verse in context.

higher dimensional space can be infinitely larger, that doesnt mean it needs more energy for parts of it to get destroyed.

That is why I'm asking about how DI treats dimensions, so I can judge for myself.

even if that higher dimensional space is infinitely larger, that doesnt infer that it is infinitely more durable in energy durability than the lower dimension.

all that does, is increase your attack range, that doesnt mean anything about potency.

See... I half agree and halfway disagree with you here... I think range has to do with power TO A DEGREE, as you should logically require an infinite amount of more power to make your attack reach an infinite range without dissipating/dispersing. Of course there are exceptions and contradictions depending on the case and context. In terms of dimensions though, I mostly agree with you.

Btw, what's your thoughts on this quote for Nasuverse about higher dimensions? This isn't the only one, but I'm curious on your thoughts about this specific one in terms of dimensional tiering (not really related to Gil much though).

"Its function as a Noble Phantasm is an "absolute defense" that completely shields its user in the domain of the fairies, Avalon, the unreachable utopia that King Arthur dreamt of and was said to have gone to after her death. It is the greatest protection in the world that goes beyond defending or reflecting, completely isolating its user in a world completely separate from the regular world. The scabbard dissipates into countless tiny particles in the air and engulfs the user to become a "portable fortress" that shuts out all interference. It is the Bounded Field of the tranquil domain of fairies that keeps out all filth from the outside world, and allows nothing to harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon. The individual is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional communication as far as the sixth dimension. It is on the level of true magic, an actual true magic in itself, that transcends all magecraft, and not even the Five Magics can overcome the barrier."

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#27 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak:

we actually agree. you are just misunderstanding me a little. i dont know about nasuverse. so may i ask we get to that question another time?

i was specifically criticizing dies irae.

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#28 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel said:

@zgtfreak:

we actually agree. you are just misunderstanding me a little. i dont know about nasuverse. so may i ask we get to that question another time?

i was specifically criticizing dies irae.

Your crusade against Dies Irae is going over kill mate. I mean.... I understand why you are contrarian against it, but seriously.

-

Yog Sothoth is so inquantifiable because the waves talking about dimensions were shifting their definitions of dimensions and metaphors, and re-explaining the same thing in different manners.

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#29 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: I re-read your logic and yeah, we do. Sorry, I misunderstood the first time a tiny bit since I'm half asleep.

i dont know about nasuverse. so may i ask we get to that question another time?

Sure, no prob.

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#30 Posted by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak said:

@sungsam: Any thoughts on the outcome?

I'll give you an interesting answer from a strange interpretation that I wanted to bounce off to you.

What if we equalized the dimension level potency of both Reinhard and Gilgamesh? Since we know they're the ones with real feats. Pretend hypothetically, that they are both 10-D or 8-D or whatnot. So long as it is equal. That out of the way.

How fare would their haxes be against each other? Too haxxed, might even be even.

I'm still trying to formulate my answer, but I'm bouncing off the premise and standards from where my answer will likely be modulated from. Since DI is to vague on its own Multiverse levels. It's a fair hypothesis ain't it?

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#32 Posted by Supermanthor (21716 posts) - - Show Bio

the pics are awesome

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#33 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Oh boy Sung... Merely bringing up Gilgamesh's abilities is more of a pain than making an ENTIRE RT on his power level and cosmology... He has almost (with very few exceptions) every Noble Phantasm in the entire Nasuverse, along with his own abilities. (Noble Phantams being a Heroic Spirit's number one/strongest ability/weapon, ect.) It's so bad to the point that any time a new Heroic Spirit and their hax weapon (Noble Phantasm) is introduced to the Nasuverse, Gilgamesh automatically has the original version of their weapon via word of god stating he has all of them (minus like one or two exceptions). In fact, he owns everything ever made by humans period. Hell, Gilgamesh has recently been confirmed to have a time machine now by default (despite not needing one) simply due to humans recently building one. I'd literally have to list almost every Fate-side ability of the Nasuverse to even simply start on his abilities. Hell, Gilgamesh doesn't even know how to use some of the weapons properly since he has so many that he fires them like projectiles, but he can immediately learn how to use them via SNI, which gives him full knowledge on everything (including weapons), including the events of timelines before they even happen, showing him the correct decision to make. Hell, Gilgamesh even has abilities from Nasuverse series predating all of Fate, such as Tsukihime and whatnot.

I will list some abilities in a later comment, but half asleep right now.

I don't know Rein's full arsenal (meaning my opinion is not final), but having a legion of millions with some basic conceptual attacks (all I know of for Rein) will be nothing to Gilgamesh. He'd snipe his entire army while sipping his wine.

Hell, I think Gilgamesh can end the fight instantly via using SNI to learn how to use Cu's Gae Bolg Noble Phantasm (since he owns and has used the weapon before), which would kill Rein instantly.

Gáe Bolg: Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death (刺し穿つ死棘の槍ゲイ・ボルク, Sashi Ugatsu Shitoge no YariGei Boruku?, also translated as Spear of Impaling Barbed Death) is an attack focused on a single target, created by Lancer to suit his own style, that strikes a fatal blow that always pierces the opponent's heart and ruins their body from within with its thousand iron thorns. It literally freezes the mana in the air, and it can easily be perceived as a sure-kill technique by all those around simply from being charged with magical energy. Once Gáe Bolg's name has been called, the cursed spear reverses the nature of causality, the meaning of "cause and effect" in the order of things, to make it so the cause of the "lance being thrust" comes from the effect of the "opponent's heart being pierced" by it. It determines the opponent's fate simply through its use, an always fatal move that pierces the heart with one thrust. It is also possible for him to activate it without actively striking the heart.[6] It is an attack on destiny itself, and while not a surprising fact due to its wielder's demi-god heritage, it is a top-notch power even with its seeming limitations in power due to being a step away from the Authority of the Gods.[7]

Gilgamesh has the superior original version of this. This alone is enough to kill Rein I believe. If not, then he has plenty more where that came from.

@ovy7 Can you enlighten us on all of Rein's arsenal (if you don't mind)?

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#34 Posted by Yasindermann (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: That's what I would say, because it would be a little bit unfair then.

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#35 Posted by Yasindermann (1251 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam said:

What if we equalized the dimension level potency of both Reinhard and Gilgamesh? Since we know they're the ones with real feats. Pretend hypothetically, that they are both 10-D or 8-D or whatnot. So long as it is equal. That out of the way.

thats like asking "what if reinhard and gilgamesh are both omnipotent. who would win?" you are equalizing their level. i dont see the point in that.

unless what you are really doing is the same as threads that say "speed equalized" but instead of speed equalized, its dimensions equalized? cosmology equalized? attack potency equalized? interesting.

i can see it now. special type of threads that disregard cosmology tiering and focus on character power set capability against one another. i like where this is going. we'll call it dimension equalized threads or "D.E." threads.

oh well. if we dimensionally equalize yog to reinhard or gilgamesh, then yog loses since he has (as you stated before) no reality warping feats against beings on his level or similar to him. so this is just a matter of gil vs rein then.

in your hypothetical scenario, the hax and warping of both rein and gil work on the same level and the same potency then. so its a matter of whose hax effect is more meta than the other per power set

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#37 Posted by ovy7 (3298 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: Well, here I go:

  • Yetzirah - Longinuslanze Testament: Reinhard's Holly Relic, Longinuslanze is the Spear of Destiny that was said to have been used on Jesus at his crucifixion. The spear has the properties of Albedo, Rubedo, and Nigredo, meaning that it can never miss, it's always faster than the target (and it can also ignore the concept of distance), and it can destroy the target on a conceptual lvl. IIRC, in Interview with Kazikulu Bey, Reinhard (which wasn't yet an Hadou God, so just normal Reinhard) uses the Spear and one-shotted Methuselah, who was compose of every single night of Earth since its conception through all the universes created by Mercurius till that point (quintillions IIRC), each night being equal to half of Earth in power. The spear can also only be used by Reinhard, as it destroys the soul of whoever touches it. Also, who gets killed by the Spear, gets added to Reinhard's Legion
  • Briah - Gladsheimr - Gullinkambi Fünfte Weltall: Reinhard’s Briah, his desire being "I love everything". As love is equivalent to that of destruction to Reinhard, his desire manifests itself as a massive, hellish castle the size of a city with an interior entirely made out of souls. Its full activation is also capable of soul-ripping other people into his castle, as he once took the lives of 800,000 into his castle with one use during the fall of Berlin. Anyone that is killed within the castle or is slain via Longinuslanze Testament becomes a part of Reinhard’s Legion of Einherjar, giving him all of their memories and powers. It also makes his Legion immortal as long as they are bound to him. It has a passive effect of distorting distance and coordination, making it impossible to get close unless one is invited to the castle itself by Reinhard. Additionally, the castle itself is detached from the multiverse, allowing Reinhard to have it manifest wherever he wishes and allowing him to instantly teleport anywhere in the multiverse by using it as a launching pad. He can also summon the Einherjar he's obtained to do battle alongside him.
  • Longinus Dreizehn Orden: Through his Briah, Reinhard can even reincarnate the members of the LDO after their initial deaths where he can send them out in the castle to fight alongside or for him. He can also use their abilities:
    • Tubal Cain: An immortal monster who has the ability to decompose anything, whether they be physical or intangible, as well as decomposing the soul itself. Has an inferior replica of Reinhard's lance, which allows it to use the abilities of those it has slain. When Reinhard reached Atziluth, Tubal Cain is able to split apart into three more of himself (each and everyone representing all of the three Sakurais' who took up the mantle as said being) and able to pierce the skin of the Snake.
    • Kaziklu Bey: A vampire who can drain the energy out of everything in his surroundings, regardless of whether or not they are organic, inorganic, tangible, or intangible. Through empowerment via Reinhard's Law at Atziluth, the range and power of Wilhelm's Briah increased to a point he can drain Mercurius' energy and even absorb the stars in all existence, boosting Reinhard's power and the size of his legion stock to higher numbers.
    • Valkyrie: Her Briah allows herself to become pure lightning, thus overwhelming her opponents with sheer speed and immunity to physical strikes. Through empowerment of Reinhard's Law after the latter obtained Godhood, Beatrice was able to pierce her sword through Mercurius' neck as well as pierce through a Great Attractor formed from the latters attack.
    • Leonhard August: Has a Briah that allows her to become a being of pure flame, emitting enough to instantly vaporize metal while also becoming virtually impossible to strike with physical attacks. When summoned with the rest of her fellow Legion members after Reinhard reached Atziluth, Kei is no different to the others as she is able to assault Mercurius alongside Beatrice and Tubal Cain.
    • Machina: Einherjar Nigredo. A powerful being that can erase the existence of whatever he hits with his fists, be it things such as living beings, objects, or even concepts (ex. Methuselah), as long as it has a history. With Reinhard's Law, Machina's power is strengthened tremendously as he instantly destroyed all of Mercurius' attacks to nothing soon after he was summoned by Reinhard.
    • Malleus: Has the ability to manipulate shadows and can summon torture tools out from her own shadow. Anyone that steps on it will be paralyzed, even unable to breathe if she so desires. With Reinhard's Law, her shadows can bind even Mercurius in place, allowing the others of Reinhards' legion to attack him.
    • Samiel: Einherjar Rubedo. Her ability makes it so that her flames never miss (her false Briah makes it an ever-expanding fireball until it has taken out all the targets), has virtually infinite range and its temperature exceeds 10,000°C, its heat surpassing the center of a nuclear explosion. Using the true form of her ability, she can transport the target and herself to the inside of the barrel of her Holy Relic, making it essentially impossible to escape as it is a pocket dimension unto itself. Her flames are also able to ignore one's resistance to heat as it directly burns the soul. After being empowered by Reinhard when the latter reached Atziluth, Eleonore's flames are potent enough to hold back Mercurius' weakest attack of Sequere Naturem (the same attack he used in his appearance in Satanel's world that effortlessly killed the latter God).
    • Hrozvitnir: Einherjar Albedo. Has the ability to always be faster than the opponent, regardless of whether they move beyond the speed of light or not and whether they slow him down or speed themselves up through time manipulation unless they outright stopped his movement entirely. As a Pseudo-God through Reinhard's Law, Schreiber is now able to outrun anyone in existence regardless of whether they are beyond space and time and can, like Beatrice, pierce through Mercurius' Great Attractor attack.
  • Atziluth - Du Sollst - Dies Irae: The manifestation of Reinhard’s Law, one that follows through with his desire of "loving everything at fullpower". Through Dies Irae, every member of Reinhard’s Legion is brought to his level of existence, making them and any other soul or any other things in existence he obtains in the world, making all become pseudo-gods in the process. In addition to all that, everyone and thing of Reinhards' legion (i.e the LDO, Nazi German Army, and all other souls he acquires) have their abilities become conceptual in nature to their previous effects and making them far devastating to the point of affecting other Gods such as Mercurius and Ren Fuji.

Basically this, and yeah, I kinda copied this from VSBW because there's a lot to cover and I'm at work.

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#38 Posted by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: Yetzirah - Longinuslanze Testament: Reinhard's Holly Relic, Longinuslanze is the Spear of Destiny that was said to have been used on Jesus at his crucifixion. The spear has the properties of Albedo, Rubedo, and Nigredo, meaning that it can never miss, it's always faster than the target (and it can also ignore the concept of distance), and it can destroy the target on a conceptual lvl. IIRC, in Interview with Kazikulu Bey, Reinhard (which wasn't yet an Hadou God, so just normal Reinhard) uses the Spear and one-shotted Methuselah, who was compose of every single night of Earth since its conception through all the universes created by Mercurius till that point (quintillions IIRC), each night being equal to half of Earth in power. The spear can also only be used by Reinhard, as it destroys the soul of whoever touches it. Also, who gets killed by the Spear, gets added to Reinhard's Legion

So this is literally Gilgamesh's Gae Bolg... Interesting...

@sungsam Since you seem interested in this...

FYI to mods: I'm not REALLY debating in my own thread since this thread includes stats. I'm just giving my opinion on a stats equalized fight as a side note.

With that out of the way...

First off, I'd like to say that Gilgamesh automatically knows all of Rein's abilities and how the entire fight will play out due to SNI.

Gilgamesh possesses a tremendously efficient clairvoyance, taking the form of the Noble Phantasm Sha Naqba Imuru, that allows him to discern heavily concealed truths with a single glance, making him fully capable of reading the True Name and Noble Phantasms of his opponents and he is able to guide others with the most optimal tactics upon releasing his true name, simultaneously increasing the attack and defense power of his entire team. He is extremely perceptive of magecraft, allowing him to see through Caster's fake death and tell the exact number of spells a magus is preparing just by looking at them, as shown by how he effortlessly predicts the exact number of Projections prepared by Shirou, which he went as far as to ask what kind of hero he would be if he could not see through a magus. He is also capable of accurately assessing his opponents' abilities.

Gilgamesh is a clairvoyance user with a "sense of 'sight' several levels above the ordinary."[3][4] When facing him in a game like chess, he claims that even someone making advanced predictions and reading the flow of the game will have already lost at that moment. He does not read the future of the chess board, but instead gazes down upon and oversees it, allowing the correct move to always be visible to him. Even in something like a card game, the very minimum requirement to play against him on equal terms would be to draw the precise hand required.[3] He can also see the possibilities of various parallel worlds should he so chooses, but, as a Heroic Spirit, the Throne of Heroes normally adjusts his memories and knowledge to the world in which he is summoned in to keep him from being confused by multiple sets of memories. Even with this ability, his personality would cause him to reject certain world lines as nonsense, such as using clairvoyance to see something like a possibility of a world where he is swallowed by the mud of the grail.[4]"

^ CCC Gilgamesh is not arrogant and careless like his FSN counterpart, so the last par doesn't apply here.

Fate/Strange Fake Direct Quote of SNI

Oh-ho. You realize, Tine, that only I could answer that question? Under this ‘Fuyuki’ sys-

tem, one does not retain memories of the times one has been summoned elsewhere.”

“Even if they are in the past...?”

There was no concept of past or future in the Throne. Taking in all of a Heroic Spirit’s me-

mories would create contradictions, such as knowing the outcome of a Grail War they were

currently participating in. Their memories were therefore supposedly adjusted to match the time

and place to which they were summoned.

“It may be a desperate measure on the part of the Throne to curb the world’s contradictions,

even if only slightly, but it is a wasted effort in the face of my eyes, which see through all futures.

Analogizing the past based on a future of a different phase is a simple matter.”

The King of Heroes stared confidently into empty space and endeavored to observe himself

on a different phase, but...

“Hm? ...’Splash’...? This can’t be right... Fishing...? No...”

He appeared briefly troubled, then mystified.

“How odd. As soon as I turn my gaze to the phases around when I was summoned to this

‘Fuyuki,’ the ‘mud’ I saw today clouds my eyes.”

He seemed, however, not to particularly mind. After a sip of wine, he shrugged his shoulders.

This shows that he can casually view other timelines. Not only knowing what will happen but will see what Mori is capable of once the fight commences. Also, knowing that his treasures must be dealt swiftly and quickly right off the bat:

The efficacy of the Noble Phantasm, Sha Nagba Imuru, is tremendous; not to mention the opponent's True Name and Noble Phantasm, it can even see through a heavily concealed truth with a single glance.

Although it is in a condition of being continuously invoked, one can also assume that it is being intentionally restrained.

Bond Line 5

Thus, maybe he has even attained a piece of the truth regarding the demise of human history.

Yet, he won't say a thing.

He only watches over the Master's fight and smiles.

He may spare no efforts in his assistance, but still--

Extra Bond Line

Fate/Extra CCC Direct Quote of SNI

Gilgamesh :: Do not be mistaken, miserly one. She had already lost the moment she made her predictions. On the chess board, the future is not something to be read. It is to be gazed down upon and overseen. The right move is always visible. Shall it be a card game, next? I care not. Though the minimum requirement to fight with me on equal terms would be to obtain precisely the hand you require.

https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2013/08/29/entry-60-everyone-plays-chess/

Gate of Babylon

This is where Gilgamesh stores all of his main arsenal.

Gate of Babylon: The King's Treasure (王の財宝ゲート・オブ・バビロン, Ō no ZaihōGēto obu Babiron?) is the "Golden Capital" that is the "King's Treasury" of Gilgamesh, and moreover, the golden key connected to it.[3] It is the storehouse Gilgamesh built to store all the treasures in the world he has collected, referred to as the "Divine Gate".[4] It connects the space of reality to the vault, opening an "invisible door" that allows for the contents to pass through upon the user's command.[5][6] Allowing for easy access to the items of the treasury, he is able to pick and utilize them as he pleases.[1][2] The rank of the Noble Phantasm changes from "E~A++" due to it reflecting the ranks of the contents of the treasury. It is a Noble Phantasm that becomes more powerful with the user's wealth, but it also would not be a useful Noble Phantasm without a wealth of valuables.[2][5] It is also once referred to as an EX ranked Noble Phantasm by Tokiomi Tohsaka due to containing Ea.[7] The items that pass through the gate form glowing ripples in the empty air as they appear instantly.[7] He can summon items directly into his hand, pull out weapons from directly behind him, or prepare numerous weapons in the air, loaded like bullets.[6][7][8] This Noble Phantasm is named as such because Babylon has become synonymous with the "Capital of Sin" and the "Golden Capital".[9] There are probably imitations like the Road of Babylon (ロード·オブ·バビロン, Rōdo obu Babiron?) as well.[9]

Although he possessed the treasury in life, he never thought about utilizing the treasures as projectiles until his first battle with Enkidu. Forced to draw out the treasures he had carefully stored away was initially humiliating for him, but eventually came to enjoy it and brought them out without regret. He later commented that his treasury was in disarray since meeting Enkidu, calling it a "harebrained habit" that Enkidu instilled upon him.[10] Its usage is why Gilgamesh is of the Archer class, firing the Noble Phantasms like bullets to make him the Archer with the strongest arrows.[2][8] While most Servants view their Noble Phantasms as treasured possessions, Gilgamesh freely launches them with the same carelessness as throwing a handful of stones.[11] Producing an excellent ratio of destructive power to magical energy efficiency, the real cost is not within the Noble Phantasms acting as bullets but rather the mere activation cost of the Gate of Babylon.[2] Compared to Heracles, the indomitable "ultimate expression of human perseverance", the treasury is the exact opposite as the infinite "ultimate expression of overwhelming force."[12] He can ready numerous weapons, letting their hilts stick out when he is waiting and instantly showing the blades when about to fight.[8] They move and take aim at the target according to Gilgamesh's will, allowing him to fire without having to even touch them.[8][11]

Gilgamesh can send out as little as one or two weapons or enough at a single time that it becomes comparable to a torrent of "gushing water" directed at the opponent.[11][13] He will increase the amount depending on the situation, opening the Gate wider to reflect his anger or when forced to become more serious.[11][14] He will generally use weak treasures unless the situation should call for his highest class of treasures, such as in the case of Heracles' God Hand.[12] He can prepare and launch dozens, hundreds, and even thousands if he is serious.[8][15][16] Possessing an inexhaustible supply, he can fight multiple battles without a single repeat Noble Phantasm being witnessed.[11] Upon firing them, he can allow them to pierce the ground after striking the target, causing a large amount of destruction with each weapon that is comparable to something being blown up by an explosive blast, or he can instantly return them to the vault before they hit the ground at such a speed that they appear to have been illusionary.[11][17] He utilizes a Noble Phantasm to retrieve any weapons left on the battlefield, instantly dissipating and returning them to the vault.[18][19] He can also leave them out if he wishes, such as when they have been "stained" by striking Caster'ssummoned creature.[20]

Upon snapping his fingers or without even a gesture, the weapons can be continuously launched at the opponent without a break.[8][17] Each weapon has the ability to cause certain death to an opponent, and they are shot with enough force to repel a swing from Berserker's large axe-sword.[13] While it is possible to block many of the strikes, to do so without knowing the abilities of the weapons can be seen as suicidal.[8] He will generally fight at long range while shooting projectiles from behind him directly at the opponent, but he can also freely move with the portals also moving with him.[12] He can freely deploy the portals mid-air while piloting Vimana as well.[20] When fighting at extremely close range, he shows the ability to loose weapons from above, below, and to the side of the opponent.[21] He can also summon weapons completely around the target for a full 360 degree barrage that should generally leave not even a single trace of flesh from the opponent.[16] When closed upon by a target, or simply to play with the opponent, he can freely draw weapons into his hands for melee combat.[6][22] The ability to handle them depends upon the user's capability.[3] Gilgamesh makes use of the many unknown abilities of the weapons, and constantly switches them to keep his opponent off-guard.[6]

Gilgamesh is renowned for having collected all the treasures in the world in his lifetime, amassing a perfect treasury that lacked nothing.[6] As there was nothing he was unable to collect, Gilgamesh was a collector of treasures, whose favorite phrase, "I collected all the treasures of the earth", is not a metaphor.[6][19] As anything can be found within the vault, the amount of wealth within exceeds even his own knowledge; it is said that its inventory of treasure continues to increase even now.[4][30][31] He collected and stored away samples of all the technology that was developed during his age. The desires of ancient humans were similar to those of the current age, so their technology, bolstered by the powerful magic of his era, was not inferior to that of the modern age. The "Instruments of Hope" that people dreamed of were all realized, and because every single case was requisitioned by the King's hand, his collection is even furnished with airplanes and submarines.[19]

It also contains all of the original bases for all intellectual properties produced by mankind that originated in his kingdom, making board games and the works of the Library of Alexandria no more than imitations.[32] It is still sought out by some magi, believed to hold all things in the world and enshrine every possible magical artifact.[28] That within are not merely riches, but his collection is the very "origin of human wisdom."[19] It is the proof of human wisdom and human ingenuity.[4] That which is missing from the vault would be items produced with completely new concepts by a new human race and items produced with extraterrestrial intelligence and technology.[19] He is the original hero, so all heroes of various myths are derived from his legend. It may be a paradox, but he, as the original, must possess that which can be handed down as the Noble Phantasms possessed by those later heroes for they are derived from him for that very reason.[19] These weapons are technically nameless, the original Prototypes of the Noble Phantasms (すべての宝具の原型, Subete no Hōgu no Genkei?) and the common points before they became objects of faith that act as the foundations for their legends.

Each treasured weapon is decorated with dazzling ornaments and polished to a mirror-like shine, all clearly sporting the magical energy to define them as Divine Mysteries without exception.[11] They are the original models of every legend, myth, and folklore. He says God Hand, a Noble Phantasm formed from Heracles' life and legends, is the one type of asset he lacks.[12] He says he wishes to obtain Kavacha and Kundala, and he is surprised by Avalon's existence. It is also possible, such as with Vasavi Shakti, that he cannot tell if something corresponds to one of the treasures in his vault. Karna's legend records that he "has" the spear, but there is no description of it "being used". It does not exist in his eyes due to never having been described, so he wishes to obtain it.[33]

The weaponry contained within includes swords, pole-arms, lances, hammers, shields, demonic swords that later made their way to Europe and South America, and a number of weapons unidentifiable to Shirou from sight, all of which form a perfect treasury of masses of unused weapons that simply went to sleep with the king. He owns the treasured swords that saved later heroes and the cursed swords that stole the lives of later heroes, and their numbers are approximately infinite.[19] After Gilgamesh's death, the contents were spread all over the world after being passed on or stolen, and the treasures, valued because they were splendid swords, eventually became Noble Phantasms. The Craft Essence Door of Babylon suggests that it was Darius III's ancestor, Darius I, who initially found and opened the gateway into the Vault, followed by the Assyrian Queen Nitocris, and then later Darius III himself.

Shirou states that the quality of the weapons makes the Noble Phantasms used by others look like fakes themselves. While Cú Chulainn has the Gáe Bolg that became famous, Gilgamesh possesses a weapon that later became the Gáe Bolg, but was not famous at the time Gilgamesh owned it. The only item contained in the vault that was not passed on to another user than Gilgamesh is Ea, a sword unique to only Gilgamesh. Shirou claims that even though he cannot see them all, he can feel that their numbers are infinite. If weapons of a previous incarnation meet those that descended from them, such as Gram facing Caliburn or copies facing originals, the deteriorated newer model will always lose.

It contains numerous A ranked weapons, capable of piercing God Hand dozens of times to take eleven of Berserker's lives and then piercing him with twenty-three more weapons afterward. Just a single weapon is enough to pierce Caster's strongest shield and keep any other Servant on the defensive. The numerous weapons contain various different effects and abilities, allowing him to assault the weaknesses of any Servant. This places him at an advantage over most Servants in combat, such as attacking with a weapon strong against a certain attribute or assaulting a Servant with a weapon they were specifically weak against during life.

The Gate can also carry living beings, as shown when Gilgamesh uses the Gate to transport Shinji Matou to the Einzbern Castle, as well as deployed in an area when he is genuinely serious, as shown during his fight against Avenger's Shadows.

Gilgamesh using SNI fully should be able to discern all things within his Gate of Babylon and how to use them instantly, as he has activated Noble Phantasm effects in the past.

Gilgamesh in Fate/Extra CCC engages in melee combat far more often than his main timeline counterpart, who prefers to merely snipe people with his Gate. CCC Gilgamesh is skilled enough to fight with Moon Cell BB even in close combat.

No Caption Provided

Now to bring up some of the countless of Noble Phantasms he would posses in the Gate.

Fragarach: Gouging Sword of the War God (斬り抉る戦神の剣フラガラック, Kiri Eguru Senjin no KenFuragarakku?), also called Answerer: That Which Comes Later Cuts First (後より出でて先に断つものアンサラー, Ato yori Idete Saki ni Tatsu monoAnsarā?) and The Retaliator, is a Noble Phantasm and Mystic Code with the ultimate form of counterattack. It is the "Sword of Retrograde" and an indefeasible weapon of the gods, divinely protected by some malicious will, that works by using a conceptual curse to warp destiny and a divine trick that uses time as its blade. It warps causality to always strike the opponent in the heart with a needle thin concentrated blast right before they unleash their ultimate attack. The condition for its use is that the opponent must use their strongest attack, and Fragarach must be used directly after the enemy's strike. It would normally be that Fragarach would kill the enemy, and the opponent's attack would also simultaneously destroy Bazett.

Despite being released afterwards and no matter how fast the opposing attack is cast, Fragarach always strikes first by changing the flow of time to rewrite events so that it makes its own strike against the enemy before the opposing move was ever made in the course of the world. Rather than just rewriting events to gouge out the heart of the enemy, it is severing the fate of the combatants, reversing and changing the flow of destiny of both the user and the enemy simultaneously killing each other with their attacks. The attack of the enemy, returned to a point where it "couldn't happen" due to the user being struck down by Fragarach, is wiped out by the laws of the world and the absolute system of time. No matter the power or speed of the ability, it is impossible to use if the enemy is defeated and has all of their later actions voided before they even have a chance to attack. It is an ability using one's life as bait to counter a one-turn-kill to win the battle that both kills the enemy and nullifies their attack, creating a perfect balance between offensive and defensive capabilities.

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Fragarach

Gate of Skye: Gate to the Magical Realm Brimming with Death (死溢るる魔境への門ゲート・オブ・スカイ, Shi Mitsuru Ruru Makyō e no MonGēto Obu Sukai?) is a Noble Phantasm possessed by Scáthach, related to the gate of the Land of Shadows.

Scáthach temporarily summons a massive gate to her shadow realm, and it sucks in all life forms in range. If the target fails to resist it with one's Mana or Luck stat, they're sucked into the gate and are instantly killed. Scáthach can choose specific targets on whether to allow them access or not. Even if resisted, the targets' mana is rapidly drained and they take major damage.[1]

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Gate_of_Skye

Gáe Bolg: Soaring Spear that Strikes with Death (突き穿つ死翔の槍ゲイ・ボルク, Tsuki Ugatsu Shishō no YariGei Boruku?, also translated as The Spear of Striking Death Flight), which is the true use of Gáe Bolg, is the largest and most powerful attack delivered using the spear. It is the “attack that unleashes countless darts at the enemy” that is spoken of in legends. It is the attack that made him a hero which utilizes the full potential of the lance's curse, converting all of Lancer's magical energy into raw energy and releasing the accumulated power after the spear is hurled, detonating on impact with enough power to blow away a multitude of enemies.

Lancer prepares to use this ability by backing one hundred meters away from his opponent, taking a crouching position on all fours, and accelerating through an approach run by dashing fifty meters before taking to the skies. He arches his back as if drawing a bow and hurls it towards the ground with all his might. It distorts space to create a "tapestry of action" that splits into numerous spearheads that pours down over the enemy. It is said that it split into thirty in his legend, but it seems that the number has increased after Cú Chulainn became a Heroic Spirit. Compared to the very little usage of magical energy with the Anti-Unit technique, this ability has an intense consumption of energy.

It does not carry the property or concept of “always pierces the opponent’s heart”, but both the power and the area of effect are increased. Rather than dispatching a single foe with absolute accuracy, its focus as a technique is to attack the enemies together with the surrounding area in a carpet bombing fashion to cause massive destruction. Due to being hurled with all of his energy, it cannot be dodged or blocked under normal circumstances. Even resilient bulwark or an agile body are not immune to its power, so Gáe Bolg will send the enemy horde flying. If it were to also have the ability to directly strike the heart, it would be closer to the level of Lugh's power as a higher level version of Fragarach.[2] The idea that Archer is capable of blocking it with Rho Aias after the spear pierces through the first six layers seems impossible to him.

The form and damage caused come close to Lugh's Brionac, but having the ability "No matter how many times it is dodged, it will strike the enemy" makes it a Noble Phantasm closer in nature to Odin's Gungnir. Archer comments that it surpasses the original Gungnir in power, and that out of all the spears he knows, it is the only one able to pierce more than one layer of Rho Aias. The spear travels at Mach 2, and the farthest he has thrown it is forty kilometers. Shirou believes that his actual range could extend to the other side of the Earth. Lancer thinks only two other people in the world, three conditionally, could beat that record.[15]

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/G%C3%A1e_Bolg#Soaring_Spear_that_Strikes_with_Death

^ The last part about mach 2 speed doesn't apply to Gilgamesh, as Cu is a massively hypersonic mountain buster at best, while CCC Gilgamesh is a multiversal being who fights beings across space-time.

Enkidu: Chains of Heaven (天の鎖エルキドゥ, Ten no KusariErukidu?) is the Noble Phantasm most trusted by Gilgamesh, even more so than Ea, and the "greatest secret" stored in the Gate of Babylon. It is a chain named after his closest friend, made to bind the gods so they cannot escape, making it one of the few Anti-Divine weapons that holds the concept of "reigning over the gods." The strength and durability of the chain grows stronger with the target having higher Divinity, but is no more than a tough chain to a target without Divinity like Saber, Assassin, or Archer. When used against a regular human like Shirou Emiya, he feels he has no chance of prying it off of him. Divine targets are completely held in place, allowing him to bind the "Bull of Heaven" that brought seven years of famine in Uruk.

It does have some sort of limit, as even he is able to tell that the chain is not enough to completely bind the demi-god Heracles strengthened by Mad Enhancement.

^ That last part is invalid, as it is going off the non-canon anime adaption where Hercules broke the chains, while in the VN he did not IIRC. Plus this isn't CCC timeline Gilgamesh.

Gilgamesh is capable of taking out the entire length of chain from the Gate of Babylon to use in conjunction with Ea when he is serious about fighting, or he can simply summon part of it from the Gate. The chain can be summoned from anywhere the Gate of Babylon can reach, elongate and contract without any shown limit, and multiple individual sections can be summoned at one time. The blade on the front of the chain is capable of acting as a striking weapon when launched at a high speed, and he can summon a single length to wrap around an opponent so he can drag them towards him by pulling it.

Once activating it as a Noble Phantasm, numerous segments instantly appear to wrap around the opponent in order to bind them for his projectiles. The opponent is given the status effect of being binded and having sustained damage inflicted on them.[1] It is shown both descending from the sky and appearing directly from inside the Gate of Babylon. He generally binds the opponent's weapon, limbs, shoulders, neck, and abdomen, rendering them completely immobile. The chains continuously twist and tighten with enough force to attempt to tear off Berserker's head and bend his arms past their limits in a normally impossible direction. It appears to even bind the space around itself, and it is capable of rendering transportation ordered by a Command Spell, which is capable of magecraft close to that of True Magic, completely useless and nullified. It can be said to be a more troublesome Noble Phantasm to Berserker than Excalibur.[2]

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Enkidu_(Noble_Phantasm)

^ A perfect ability for binding a Hadou god.

I can bring up more, but lazy and half asleep. I'm also saving Enuma Elish GG, as I doubt Gil will need it.

Rein is looking very impressive so far though.

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#39 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

it would be preferable to have @sungsam's hypothesis be made on another thread. this "dimensions equalized" is an interesting twist to test the power sets of reality warping and hax for every character we know by irrelevantising cosmology.

yog sothoth will definitely lose in such an equalization however.

anywho, we know that yog is not above infinite-d anyway since it was written that all-dimensional space was only finite.

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#40 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Well the thread can't be made by me since I have a clear winner in mind (Gilgamesh), which is why I didn't make standard/mid-ball Gil Vs. standard mid-balled Rein, since I also had Gil winning. This multi interpretation thread is the only one I didn't have a clear winner in mind on.

Also, this cosmology equalization is really just stat equalization with a different name. Nothing new. I like the idea in this case though.

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#41 Edited by etriel (568 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: i agree. but its never been done with multiversal characters before though. usually cosmology is so dependent for multiversal characters we never think of what they can do pound for pound without biggaversalness.

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#42 Posted by ovy7 (3298 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: I think there's gonna be a problem with that too. Let's say that character A and character B have both the same hax (let's say conceptual destruction, like Gil and Rein have in this thread). How do we know whose hax is more powerful without using cosmology scaling (for the characters that were affected by said hax)?

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#43 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: Well their hax are different overall. Gilgamesh has millions of abilities (literally), and I doubt all of Rein's work the exact same, meaning we could see how their different effects work against each other.

The problem is if the thread is made, I'll be very lazy; meaning it'll take time for me to list even a tiny bit of Gilgamesh's abilities (it's very long and tedious to find them).

I feel as though Reinhard would be a better match for CCC Archer or Moon Cell BB, though I'm not sure, as he still may be a bit too much for them with stats equalized. You're better off putting Gilgamesh against multiple Umineko Voyagers with stats unequalized due to his abilities alone, but you can ignore this personal opinion of mine that I don't usually bring up in public.

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#44 Posted by ovy7 (3298 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: I'm not referring to Gil vs Rein, they were just an example. What I'm trying to say is that if we put to characters with the same powerset, but one of them is way stronger than the other under cosmology scaling, when we remove the cosmology scaling and equalize them, which one has the more powerful ability?

I think cosmology scaling is one way to understand to power of one's hax and removing that lives us in the dark.

Like, for example, take 2 characters, one is a planet buster and the other is street tier. Both have hax that worked on their corespondent lvls, but if we equalize everything then who is the winner? The hax of the planet buster becomes as strong as the one of the street lvlr and it becomes kind of impossible to say who wins, right.

That's what I'm trying to say, under equalized cosmology two characters with similar hax are basically in an eternal stalemate.

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#45 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@ovy7: Of course, which is why we never equalize people with the same power set, which in turn means we never should use stat equalization for something like comics, as they don't have power sets and only have the basic unimpressive "Lel, reality warp." For something like VNs with vastly different unique power sets however, it works perfectly in most cases.

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#46 Posted by ovy7 (3298 posts) - - Show Bio

@zgtfreak: hm, well, I guess it can go case by case.

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#47 Edited by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: @ovy7: @zgtfreak:

I actually have the ability to make a case as to why Reinhard and Gilgamesh would STILL stomp Yog Sothoth even if he was "Infinite Dimensional" with our Cosmology Tiering system.

It has something to do with how dimensions work differently in different fictions. Old Geometric Dimensions vs Newer Quantum Megaversal Dimensions. This rule is VERY important, more important than you realize.

The reason why I cannot say it, is that this argument can be used as an argument against Dimensional Tiering in general in other threads if not given proper context behind my reasoning yet. Hence, I want to avoid it for now.

It will harm VSBattles greatly, but it will also harm what we're trying to do if I don't give the proper context.

But that's why I'm ignoring Yog.

Online
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#49 Posted by zgtfreak (2210 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Hm. PM me about it if you don't mind.