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#101 Posted by omegalord4896 (22 posts) - - Show Bio

btw good night

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#102 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@omegalord4896 said:

btw good night

You really need to stop spreading your Outerversalist arguments on this forum. People spent years proving Lucifer Morningstar was Multiversal (including me) without Outerversal arguments. It is etiquettely meaningless on this board and you just lose people.

And there is no point in arguing given the infinitesimally small geometric dimensions of Lovecraft compared to far larger Cosmologies of Marvel of an Infinitely Layered Infinitely and Instant multiplying Cosmology, that Multi-Eternity is, who is a construct with actual reality warping feats demonstrated as opposed to other featless constructs in other verses.

In regards to your PM, I didn't continue the debate because we are literally just repeating ourselves. To me, Yog stating that all of Carter's facets were from Finite Dimensions while he, the Archetypal Infinity existed outside the Dimensions in the same sentence is good enough for me to believe there is no "Infinite-D" in Lovecraft and that the Archetypal Infinity were not dimensions at all. Don't agree? Fine.

And if your VSBattles laughs at us, so what? Your tiering system literally confuses Hilbert Dimensions with Space Time dimensions which aren't even the same thing at all. And is hiding the fact that Infinite Dimensional Wave Functions exists in all Type III Multiverses according to several theories and according to Tegmark, any Level III Quantum Multiverse is already Infinite Dimensionally Branching. It's hilariously embarrassing how many lies your Wiki has gotten away with and casuals still buy into it.

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#103 Posted by Supermanthor (18992 posts) - - Show Bio

still multi eternity

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#104 Posted by Gaoron (8878 posts) - - Show Bio

@omegalord4896: Nicely said man. Based on what you posted Yog should win.

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#105 Edited by Gaoron (8878 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor: I'm afraid to ask since you believe Superman is omniversal but why Multi eternity wins exacly? Didn't you read all the stuff for Yog on this thread?

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#106 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@gaoron said:

@supermanthor: I'm afraid to ask since you believe Superman is omniversal but why Multi eternity wins exacly? Didn't you read all the stuff for Yog on this thread?

Because even if Yog was above Infinite-D (he isn't) this dimensional multiverse has no reality warping feats, and is infinitely smaller compared to Multi-Eternity who embodies an Infinitely Instantly multiplying Infinite Dimensional Quantum Multiverse.

A single Infinite Sized Universe in Marvel would create infinite new coordinates of daughter Multiverses in an instant, and that's just ONE Universe, if what more for the infinite other universes doing the same thing? Or the layers above that Quantum Multiverse that is infinite? Infinite New Coordinates of Megaverses are created every moment for every Universe, then repeats ad infinitium.

Multi-Eternity is endlessly beyond endless orders of infinity larger than any Lovecraft Geometric Infinite-D construct. Something the Outer Gods are not.

There is a big difference between fighting a Multiverse, and fighting a far larger Multiverse with a mind of its own who can reality warp.

So unfortunately for Lovecraft, Multi-Eternity stomps regardless if that Geometric Layered Multiverse was Infinite Dimensional or not. Because the concept of dimensions work differently in different fictions.

But that's why Omeg is shifting to Outerversalist arguments which had been shunned on this board for a long time.

Still very laughable considering the 3rd/4th Dimension is literally bordering the First Gate itself. I still really cannot see the possibility of an Infinite Dimensional Lovecraft.

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#107 Edited by Supermanthor (18992 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: thanks for backing me

Guy is mad at me because I was just messing around in a Goku vs Superman thread :P

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#108 Posted by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: thanks for backing me

Guy is mad at me because I am just messing around in a Goku vs Superman thread

I already know how it will unfold. @zgtfreak

It's gonna be the same crap about how Outerversalism is better than Cosmology Tiering and blablablablabla, it's already a repetitive repetitious discussion from my end.

Because even if I convinced them that Lovecraft had no Infinite-D, they would then still go move on to Outerversalist arguments.

It's a non-interactive debate.

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#109 Posted by Supermanthor (18992 posts) - - Show Bio

@gaoron said:

@supermanthor: I'm afraid to ask since you believe Superman is omniversal but why Multi eternity wins exacly? Didn't you read all the stuff for Yog on this thread?

well i will have to give credit to you for not bashing me but that was clearly meant to be a joke

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#110 Posted by omegalord4896 (22 posts) - - Show Bio

first gate bordering 3/4th dimensional reality?????? thats it, i am done arguing with idiots who dont bother to look up information about lovecraft and state stuff out of their headcannon. sungsam, excuse me for saying this, but you are legitimately a dumbass who doesn't understand the sources i stated and very obviously just hates the Cthulhu mythos.

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#111 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@omegalord4896 said:

first gate bordering 3/4th dimensional reality?????? thats it, i am done arguing with idiots who dont bother to look up information about lovecraft and state stuff out of their headcannon. sungsam, excuse me for saying this, but you are legitimately a dumbass who doesn't understand the sources i stated and very obviously just hates the Cthulhu mythos.

K.

"The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate,"

The Three Dimensional Phase of a Small Wholeness (an infinitesimal part of an infinitesimal thing that is 4-D) is reached by the First Gate. REACHED, meaning something that comprises 3-D phases that is SMALL and is REACHABLE is reached by the First Gate. The FIRST GATE is TOUCHING the Infinitesimal thing that comprises infinitesimal 3-D phases. They are bordering. They are touching, they are respectively the next/previous level to each other.

Not even sure why this is supposed to even "Lowball" Lovecraft. Or is it, you just get offended by anyone saying something different about your favorite verse?

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#112 Posted by zgtfreak (1897 posts) - - Show Bio

@sungsam: Remember that Gaoron is a DB debater, meaning you should automatically ignore anything he says.

@gaoron Yog>Beyonder amirite?

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#113 Posted by omegalord4896 (22 posts) - - Show Bio

You literally stated a quote. Then did a lot of mental gymnastics coming up with a botched interpretation. While ignoring all the other quotes that clearly show the first gate is beyond the concept of dimensions by infinities. Nice going dumbass.

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#114 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@omegalord4896 said:

You literally stated a quote. Then did a lot of mental gymnastics coming up with a botched interpretation. While ignoring all the other quotes that clearly show the first gate is beyond the concept of dimensions by infinities. Nice going dumbass.

"The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate,"

No mental gymnastics here. The Small Wholeness of 3-D Phases is reached by the First Gate. There are no Infinite Dimensions to trespass needed to reach the First Gate at all if it is reachable by the 3rd dimension. It's so damned explicit.

There are also no quotes of "First Gate is beyond Infinite Dimensions" no, it's not. It's just beyond finite dimensions. Get over it.

And what are you even doing here? I thought I wouldn't see you again? Would you... mind fucking off already? At least Zeroth knows when to agree to disagree and peaced out to me. Him, I respect, hence I don't want to bother dragging us both to an endless convo. But you? No.

And don't accuse me of "mental gymnastics" when you literally claimed Finite Dimensions means Infinite Dimensions in that pea little brain of yours.

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#115 Posted by omegalord4896 (22 posts) - - Show Bio

No problem. I'll go off and leave the idiot to his delusions.

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#117 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@omegalord4896 said:

No problem. I'll go off and leave the idiot to his delusions.

> Literally said that Finite Dimensions means Infinite Dimensions.

But okay.

@yasindermann Don't bother replying to omegalord. Let this thread die instead, our business here is concluded.

@zerothcause said:

@sungsam Your explanations tend to be overthinking things. Like, the "infinity of directions" quote never even mentions anything along the lines of an infinite multiverse. That's you adding your own extra stuff to try and make the quote fit that instead of taking it in the context that is given with it, which is that "directions" refer to dimensions. Occam's razor would say that if the guy is talking about a "tri-dimensional" world being limited, links "directions" to individual dimensional axes / dimensions, and then says there's an infinity of those directions, the simplest explanation to take from that is that he's saying there's an infinity of dimensions. Not add in your own explanation about an infinite multiverse and try to make the quote fit that. Like, the "infinity of directions" is never anywhere even implied to be referring to just the ability to go to an infinite number of universes. That's all you adding your own explanation instead of just accepting the quote for what it is..

Except it is contradicted by the fact that Yog Sothoth stated that all the Infinite Carters came from Finite Dimensions. We are clearly misinterpreting what the Infinite Directions mean't.

If there were Infinite Dimensions, why did Yog claim that all the Carters came from Finite Dimensions?

I can actually destroy the idea that the Archetypal Infinity =/= Eternal Archetype VERY easily.

Because Price (who contributed to the dimensions stuff of the story) is well read in Neoplatonic Archetypes.

And Archetypal Forms exist eternally and infinitely, each moment of this eternity is a phase.

Luce notes, that archetypes are either Platonic ideas that coexist eternally in the mind of God or the created originals on which our ideas are modeled. However, Berkeley is reluctant to speak about God's ideas because for him ideas are fleeting, passive objects of mind (D 240-41).

Same with the archetypal infinity. You overthink the quote and try to add links where there aren't any. That you think the term "so on to archetypal infinity" is referring to going up to a being / location instead of just,

We've been over this.

phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.

The Eternal Archetype is a geometric set of infinite planes that comprises the infinite phases. So the Archetypal Infinity was just referring to the Eternal Archetype.

The Archetypal Infinity is both a location and an entity. The Archetypal Eternal being is a GEOMETRY, a location.

I am not overthinking things.

Archetypal Eternal Being = Geometric Wholeness.

Archetypal Infinity = Geometric Wholeness.

They're the same thing.

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#118 Edited by Sungsam (3209 posts) - - Show Bio

@zerothcause

I'll just lay a few things before finally leaving this thread to die. Since Gaoron came up with the idea that I got "rekt". Let me address all these points accordingly. I know that you basically want to quit, but this is for "reference".

1.

You really need to stop saying the Archetypal Infinity is not the Eternal Archetype. That is REALLY stretchy. Why?

Because Archetypes are used in this case a Geometric and NEOPLATONIC context. Archetypes mean the original from which everything else flows from eternally and DESCENDS from. Okay?

In NEOPLATONIC Archetypes, Archetypes exist from the original top of everything while everything else descends form it. In Neoplatonic Philosophy ARCHETYPAL FORMS exist in one Archetypal World. And ARCHETYPES cannot be separated from each other by several dimensions.

Archetypes exist ETERNALLY, that means both the Archetypal Infinity that exists throughout the entire Cosmology of (reachless) heights and the Eternal Archetype that ALSO exists throughout the entire Cosmology as a changeless totality ARE THE SAME.

Your theory that the Archetypal Infinity is not the same as the Eternal Archetype really really needs to stop and is ridiculous. Because they're WHOLENESS cut up from different sections as that is ignoring the context of Platonic Concepts. THEY'RE THE SAME.

Price is a writer on NeoPlatonic Concepts and ARCHETYPES it is very ridiculous to imply Archetypes transcend Archetypes by several several times in a Neoplatonic context.

How can one Geometric Archetypal Infinity be separated from the Eternal Archetype when they're being described in the same pattern?

You're nitpick about how its a location and one is an entity is also really dumb. By that logic, your Yoggy is not truly Outerversal because it exists in a "space" outside dimensions. No, they both exist as infinite different phases and planes throughout the Multiverse. They're the same. So stop that.

Archetypal Infinity is cut up of different sections, so is the Archetypal Eternal being of Infinitely Angled cut sections. THEY'RE THE SAME. You need to stop this.

It makes no sense. YOU ARE LITERALLY SAYING, that the Eternal Archetype (that is Yog) made of Geometric Phases is not the same as the Archetypal Infinity, when Archetypes mean everything else flows from it in Neoplatonic Thought.

Even if they're not the "same" they exist in the same place since Archetypes exist in the same Archetypal Realm.

Your argument is banking on the idea that one is a location, the other an entity. Not realizing the Eternal Archetype is also a location made of phases throughout all of Geometric Space. I mean.

You know if you don't see the problem with your argument, then that's kind of your problem as well.

2.

It doesn't matter how many "Infinite Directions" there are.

Yog Sothoth was SPECIFICALLY asked about the relationship between Carter's facets throughout all of space-time, and he answered they came from FINITE dimensions, although they are infinitely distant to each other, these are FINITE dimensions.

ALL descended line of beings, and ALL Carters throughout Space-Time come from FINITE DIMENSIONS. If there were Infinite Dimensions, all Carter Facets should come from INFINITE Dimensions, not finite.

There are Infinite Directions in FINITE Dimensions. Big Deal, you are the one over-thinking things. That is why I KNOW you are misreading the text.

Etriel just had a better way of pointing it out than I, but the debate was already 100% over.

3.

It was stated by Lovecraft in his writing that each of these gate themselves ARE Dimensions, just stranger. So the idea these gates are "beyond" dimensions is ridiculous, they are still a location. Time and Space may be metaphysical or not exist there, but they are still dimensions.

"Carter, he said, had told him that this key had come down from his ancestors, and that it would help him to unlock the gate to his lost boyhood, and to strange dimensions"

So the First Gate and co were STILL Dimensions, just more eldritch. The Ultimate Gate is the space OUTSIDE DIMENSIONS, this description fits more.

4.

The First Gate is literally stated to be bordering a small wholeness of 3-Dimensions.

"The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate,"

The First Gate is REACHED by Three-Dimensional Phase of Small Wholeness. It's not "BEYOND INFINITE-D" if it is literally stated it is just reached/bordered by a small wholeness of 3-D Phases.

5.

NOW, unto your answer of Multi-Eternity vs Yog Sothoth answer.

No, curb your Outerversalism. Multi-Eternity is equal in power to Oblivion at base who embodies nothingness. Marvel doesn't care about Void tiering or Undimension or Outerverse tiering since they regularly shit on it.

This is part of the new set of fiat beliefs that Nothingness Infinity > Somethingness Infinity, this is not true.

Multi-Eternity stands on equal ground to Oblivion who embodies nothingness. Marvel really doesn't care about "Outerverse" tiering.

No Caption Provided

See? Above shows how futile this entire discussion really is. Because even if I pretended it was Infinite-D, it adds nothing because Multi-Eternity is instantly creating new Infinite-Metaverses while your Yoggy does nothing.

You are basically arguing that a guy outside a building can destroy a building much larger than itself just because it is smaller.

You promised me you were not an Outerversalist- yet- here you are. Arguing Outerversalism. Which is actually despised on this board generally BTW.

You also seem to fail to grasp the DIFFERENCE between an Infinite-D Multiverse and an Infinite orders of Infinity and beyond larger Infinite-D Multiverse that can REALITY WARP which is something you fail to grasp.

Being beyond Void Dimensions has no quantifiable difference between above Space-Time Dimensions. No writer in fiction (and barely any) subscribes to this Nothingness > Somethingness fallacy, it's an Outerversalist head canon.

---------------------------------------

I am not "thinking too hard" just thinking outside the box of the possibility that we may be reading the text wrong. Because you fail to grasp the archetype context of platonic forms being written into the work.

Archetypal Infinity? Archetypal is the same as the Archetypal Eternity because both exists throughout all planes of the Multiverse in the Changeless totality. Ah, hell, I already addressed this. Anybody knowing the Neoplatonic context behind the writing knows it is ridiculous to seperate the link between the Archetypal Infinity of Geometrically explained context and the Eternal Archetype of Infinite Geometric Phases.

Infinite Directions? Oh, Infinite Directions in Finite Dimensions. They would still be finite because they are stated to be finite and this is in context referring to ALL TIME AND SPACE because it is about the Carters that exist throughout Space-Time eternally. Big deal.

"Finite Dimensions" is referring to an Omniversal-Eternal Context of Space-Time.

There, I addressed all the points. Worth pointing.