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#51 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

@sungsam

Ok so, I was rude, and I apologise for that.

However, I still believe you are wrong to say that Yog isn't above infinite D, so I'm going to bring up a few points.

From what I understand of your argument that Yog is only 6D, it's based on two quotes. The first is:

"All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions."

This is where you get the idea that the mythos has finite dimensions and then somone outside those dimensions. Because it mentions beings of finite dimensions, and then the eternal being in the space outside dimensions.

And the other quote is:

"They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity."

And this is where you get the idea that the mythos only has 5 dimensions, correct? Because it only directly mentions up to forms of five dimensions. So anything outside those 5 dimensions is only at the sixth.

Now, importantly. Am I correct in saying that you think that "the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity" is the "space outside dimensions" where that "archetypal and eternal being" lives? That you believe the number of dimensions go up to 5 and then there's this place called "archetypal infinity" that exists outside those 5 dimensions?

#52 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -
@zgtfreak said:

@zerothcause: Lovecraft specifically states that Yog is above FINITE dimensions (5-D). Archetypal infinity ends at Yog/outside of dimensions/6-D. Archetypal doesn't speak about the SIZE of ANYTHING.

"All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions."

See? There is no infinite-D in Lovecraft! Let this be a lesson to you!

I see what you are trying to say.

However, that quote is referring specifically to "beings of the finite dimensions". It doesn't say the cosmology has finite dimensions, it says that there are "beings of the finite dimensions". Like for example, a human being of the three dimensions.

Also, why are you saying that "Archetypal doesn't speak about the SIZE of ANYTHING." and "Why do Lovecraft wankers think Archetype refers to the size and or number of something"? You're correct, Archetypal doesn't mean size of number of something, but I haven't actually brought any relevance to the term "archetypal" to back up my points. Yes there is "archetypal infinity", but I haven't said that "it's a mega big infinity because its archetypal" or something like that, I've just quoted what Lovecraft said in his works. So why are you addressing that like you are making a counter argument?

#53 Edited by zgtfreak (1455 posts) - -

@zerothcause: Other Lovecraft fans use the archetypal argument to argue for infinite-D, so I assumed you were by default, and the quotes you sent had the word it in, so I thought you were using it like everyone else. My bad.

It specifically says Yog is beyond those finite beings specifically. Don't get me wrong, he's extremely powerful, but nowhere near infinite-D.

#54 Edited by Sungsam (2992 posts) - -

@zerothcause said:

@sungsam

Ok so, I was rude, and I apologise for that.

However, I still believe you are wrong to say that Yog isn't above infinite D, so I'm going to bring up a few points.

From what I understand of your argument that Yog is only 6D, it's based on two quotes. The first is:

"All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions."

This is where you get the idea that the mythos has finite dimensions and then somone outside those dimensions. Because it mentions beings of finite dimensions, and then the eternal being in the space outside dimensions.

And the other quote is:

"They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity."

And this is where you get the idea that the mythos only has 5 dimensions, correct? Because it only directly mentions up to forms of five dimensions. So anything outside those 5 dimensions is only at the sixth.

Now, importantly. Am I correct in saying that you think that "the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity" is the "space outside dimensions" where that "archetypal and eternal being" lives? That you believe the number of dimensions go up to 5 and then there's this place called "archetypal infinity" that exists outside those 5 dimensions?

Let me get this out first before we continue, and yes, apology is accepted, but you don't need to apologize to me given my rampaging history on this forum. I'm used to it. I might even welcome you into our bloc because you seem to be not an Outerversalist at all.

Let me also get this first, that even if Yog was above Infinite-D, remember that dimensions work differently in different fictions. For reasons, it will not change the outcome of this fight because Marvel's Cosmology is too complex, it's not a static cosmology at all, it instantly and infinitely expands itself on all its infinite levels, each Universe is infinite in size and has multiple realms in each of these, just look at Earth 616 alone. And that's the power of Multi-Eternity.

Okay, next... here is the thing, I know why you believed that quote, referred to Higher Dimensions of Infinity. The problem is that the next page places the Archetypal Infinity as being outside the dimensions, so the Archetypal Infinity was not the number of dimensions there were, but where the 5th was below.

This is the problem I am having Zeroth. Do you understand me now? That is why it is difficult to see for me it is Infinite-D.

Thank you.

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#55 Edited by nosagi (20 posts) - -

Dimensions this, dimensions that. Dimensions say absolutely nothing about power. They don't make anything bigger, it only divides an Infinity and makes it more complex, not bigger. Once again, Eternity one shots due to having real Multiversal feats on panel.

This whole Dimensional wank is really not necessary.

@sungsam I got your PM about your bloc. That's fine, but label me as an observer critic, not as an "ally" you and your friends have more in common with the Outerversalists you fear than you have with me.

#56 Posted by Sungsam (2992 posts) - -

@nosagi said:

Dimensions this, dimensions that. Dimensions say absolutely nothing about power. They don't make anything bigger, it only divides an Infinity and makes it more complex, not bigger. Once again, Eternity one shots due to having real Multiversal feats on panel.

This whole Dimensional wank is really not necessary.

@sungsam I got your PM about your bloc. That's fine, but label me as an observer critic, not as an "ally" you and your friends have more in common with the Outerversalists you fear than you have with me.

So you agree with me, but with different reasons. Got it.

Online
#57 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

@sungsam: Ok, then I see where the error in your thinking arises

"archetypal infinity" is not a place.

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

There's no capitalisation. It's "archetypal infinity", not "Archetypal Infinity", so its not like a name. And no location in the OG mythos is ever called "The Archetypal Infinity". While there are "archetypal and eternal beings", that doesn't mean that the "archetypal infinity" is somewhere they live - it means that it is an "infinty" of the same nature as those beings.

This is what Lovecraft's "archetypes" are:

all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.

The "Archetype" is the object's "ultimate" form that exists outside time and space. All the different "Carters" throughout time and space are all just the result of "seeing" the true ultimate eternal "Carter" from different angles.

What it means here - and I'm sorry about this @zgtfreakafter just saying that I hadn't used it like this - is that this "archetypal infinity" is "ultimate and eternal" infinity which all other infinities are just a small part of. The "archetypal infinity" isn't a location outside space and time - it's just the ultimate number infinity.

If you read the infinity from quote "and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity" as a number rather than as a location, then you see that it's saying that each object is cut from the form of its corresponding object in higher dimensional space, and this continues "so on up to infinity".

For example, if the quote was "and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to one million", then it's not hard to see that the quote is saying the relationship of "objects cut from higher dimensional objects" continues "so on" until one million dimensions.

Once you see that "archetypal infinity" is literally just a big number and not the name of a place, it becomes a lot clearer.

#58 Edited by zgtfreak (1455 posts) - -

@zerothcause: this "archetypal infinity" is "ultimate and eternal" infinity which all other infinities are just a small part of. The "archetypal infinity" isn't a location outside space and time - it's just the ultimate number infinity.

One big infinity that lesser infinities are apart of =/= true infinity. You can be 6-D infinity (aka Yog since he's above 5-D space-time) that has lesser infinities being a mere part of you and still not be true infinity. True infinity is omnipotence, which Yog is CLEARLY not.

If you read the infinity from quote "and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity" as a number rather than as a location, then you see that it's saying that each object is cut from the form of its corresponding object in higher dimensional space, and this continues "so on up to infinity".

The "dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity" refers to the place Yog is at, as Yog SPECIFICALLY is stated to transcend FINITE dimensional beings, meaning the archetypal infinity ends at where Yog is, aka outside of 5-D space-time (so 6-D in this case).

#59 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

@zgtfreak said:

@zerothcause: this "archetypal infinity" is "ultimate and eternal" infinity which all other infinities are just a small part of. The "archetypal infinity" isn't a location outside space and time - it's just the ultimate number infinity.

One big infinity that lesser infinities are apart of =/= true infinity. You can be 6-D infinity (aka Yog since he's above 5-D space-time) that has lesser infinities being a mere part of you and still not be true infinity. True infinity is omnipotence, which Yog is CLEARLY not.

SORRY ABOUT THE WEIRD FORMATTING, I'm not sure how to split up the quote so I can reply to just one part of your quote. I don't know if True infinity is some special term that is synonymous with omnipotence, but that's not what I'm saying. But this is how Lovecraft's archetypes work. Everything that is within space-time is just the result of people viewing a fragmentary part of the archetype outside space-time from different "angles". So any infinity that exists withinspace-time is simply a part of the archetypal infinity being viewed at a different angle.

If you read the infinity from quote "and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity" as a number rather than as a location, then you see that it's saying that each object is cut from the form of its corresponding object in higher dimensional space, and this continues "so on up to infinity".

The "dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity" refers to the place Yog is at, as Yog SPECIFICALLY is stated to transcend FINITE dimensional beings, meaning the archetypal infinity ends at where Yog is, aka outside of 5-D space-time (so 6-D in this case).

I'm sorry, but no. The dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity is not a place. It's a really really fancy way of talking about the numerical infinity. It's reachless because you can't reach it by counting from 0 up. It's dizzying because it's so massive and mind-boggling huge. It's not just the place where Yog lives.

Also

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.

You and @sungsamseem to think that the bolded bit refers to Yog-Sothoth. It's not, it's referring to how everything is a manifestation of one of the the archetypes (The Outer Gods) for other things. Just as there is a Carter archetype, if you were to exist in the Mythos, you would be a manifestation of Outer God that is the zgtfreak archetype.

Yog Sothoth on the other hand is the All In One, the Supreme Archetype. All those lesser Archetypes are just small parts of him.

#60 Posted by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

Also, to those who think that Yog has no feats other than just being a really big blob that knows a lot, Yog is well, well above someone like Hypnos, who "had designs which involved the rulership of the visible universe and more; designs whereby the earth and the stars would move at his command, and the destinies of all living things be his"

Given that Yog Sothoth is the All In One and One In All, Hypnos is part of him and he can do anything that Hypnos can.

#61 Posted by Chad_Duby (5681 posts) - -

I hate Spaghetti monster so I side with Eternity.

#62 Edited by Sungsam (2992 posts) - -

I cannot see how the Archetypal infinity refers to infinite orders of infinity (Like Infinite-Dimensions) when it's just one infinity, outside said dimensions so the Archetypal Infinity and the Dimensions were separated, it did not correlate a continuous relationship of layers at all.

This can be seen in the later test where the Archetype is stated to see an infinitesimal that sees another infinitesimal that is the Human World. And another quote stating that the totality of the Outer Gods saw our Universe as a speck, (Like Baseline Multiversal) but not infinite layers of infinitesimal.

The Marvel Multiverse was an Infinitely Layered Creation, atop an Infinitely Expanding upon a Quantum Instantly Multiplying Multiverse. Even if you consider that "Infinite-D" on your Lovecraft part, it is so different from the conceptions of Infinite-D in our modern fictions, to the point that OG Lovecraft just lags behind newcomers.

Even a 10-D Multiverse in a modern fiction instantly multiplying itself would surmount to being superior to an oldschool hypothetical Infinite-D Lovecraft.

Regards, I appreciate our exchange, but I will have to continue this another time.

Online
#63 Posted by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

The primary mistake you are making is that you think "archetypal infinity" refers to a place outside space time that Yog lives in.

I'll re-state the quote but substitute locations and finite numbers for the "archetypal infinity" to show what I mean.

You think that the quote reads like this:

The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to [New York]

In other words, you think that the [New York] is a literal place that the relationship of form-cut-from-higher-dimensional-form stops at.

What you should be reading the quote as is:

The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to [1000000000000]

In other words, that the [1000000000000] is a numerical expression of just how many times the relationship of form-cut-from-higher-dimensional-form repeats itself.

I don't really care about who wins this, but I had to correct the people who were saying Yog was only 6-D.

#65 Edited by Sungsam (2992 posts) - -

@zerothcause said:

The primary mistake you are making is that you think "archetypal infinity" refers to a place outside space time that Yog lives in.

Which is true. Not a mistake. You're saying we're mistaken when the quote I gave very much explicitly tells you the Archetypal Infinity is literally outside the dimensions (which is only 5 and finite) itself, the text stated this. The Archetypal Infinity could not make up new numbers of dimensions if it is outside of them, too contradictory to numberly comprise them.

An Archetypal Original Infinity being outside dimensions, explicitly this was made so, "archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions". So the Archetype were not new higher dimensions, but was an infinity outside of it.

I'll re-state the quote but substitute locations and finite numbers for the "archetypal infinity" to show what I mean.

Your entire argument is saying that each number within the Archetypal Infinity referred to a new higher dimension, but this is illogical, because the Archetypal Infinity is outside the dimensions itself, outright contradicting your interpretation... it does not comprise each new higher dimension if it is separated from said dimensions. The Archetypal Infinity is outside the dimensions, the quote I gave you literally tells you this, and that's enough for us to reject it.

You just constantly ignore our reasons for rejecting it, and just insist that this funny quote said in a funny way "Means Infinite-D, because if you think of it this way with mental interpretation-" It's not enough for us. Not "clarification" but "interpretation".

Your argument is banking on this one vague quote, easily clarified in a later quote. It's not my fault that Lovecraft wrote the archetypal infinity as being outside the dimensions.

Online
#66 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16263 posts) - -

Yog.

#67 Posted by TonyStark6999 (2265 posts) - -

Multi-Eternity

#68 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

@sungsam: You are assuming that "archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions", which is explicitly referring to a being, is the same thing as "archetypal infinity", which you are still capitalizing despite the source material not doing so. You are incorrect. The archetypal infinity is just a numerical big infinity, and the archetypal and eternal being is one of the Outer Gods / Archetypes. They are different things. They do not refer to the same thing.

Your entire debunk relies on your interpretation of those things being the same thing, and the only foundation of that assumption is that the word "archetypal" shows up in their descriptions, when everything else about their descriptions is different.

I am sorry, but I have to ask. Have you actually read Through the Gates of the Silver Key? The entire thing, not just the 5 line quotes people bring up when they're debating who wins. Because I feel like if you had, it would be obvious to you that they aren't talking about the same thing, because they are talked about in relation to entirely different things, several paragraphs apart from each other. When the two quotes are put right next to each other like that, it becomes easy to make your mistake of assuming its talking about the same thing, but it's not.

#69 Posted by Cergic (1099 posts) - -

I feel bad for the word infinite

#70 Posted by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

@cergic said:

I feel bad for the word infinite

#71 Edited by etriel (513 posts) - -

still multi eternity

#72 Posted by CaoCao (1323 posts) - -

Yoggi.

#73 Edited by Sungsam (2992 posts) - -

@zerothcause said:

@sungsam: You are assuming that "archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions", which is explicitly referring to a being, is the same thing as "archetypal infinity", which you are still capitalizing despite the source material not doing so. You are incorrect. The archetypal infinity is just a numerical big infinity, and the archetypal and eternal being is one of the Outer Gods / Archetypes. They are different things. They do not refer to the same thing.

Your entire debunk relies on your interpretation of those things being the same thing, and the only foundation of that assumption is that the word "archetypal" shows up in their descriptions, when everything else about their descriptions is different.

I am sorry, but I have to ask. Have you actually read Through the Gates of the Silver Key? The entire thing, not just the 5 line quotes people bring up when they're debating who wins. Because I feel like if you had, it would be obvious to you that they aren't talking about the same thing, because they are talked about in relation to entirely different things, several paragraphs apart from each other. When the two quotes are put right next to each other like that, it becomes easy to make your mistake of assuming its talking about the same thing, but it's not.

I was already aware of what you would take issue with my debunk, and I can address this.

The Archetypal Eternity is a re-explanation of the Archetypal Infinity, transferring the context of circles and planes to organisms and life forms.

We know this because lower phases and lower dimensions are described as being small parts of both, the infinitesimal dimension is treated as just being a small part of the greater Archetypal Infinity, as with the finite dimensions are treated as being part of the greater Archetypal Eternity outside the dimensions. It's a repetitious rewording of cosmology explanation thematic.

So the same pattern of cosmology context had been applied to both the archetypal infinity and eternity as well. In fact, it's about how life form generations and organisms are phases of a greater archetypal whole interpreted upon geometric dimension allegory. It's just re-worded.

Only thing is that the Archetypal Eternity that which lower dimensions are merely part of, makes it clear that the Archetypal Infinity/Eternity is outside the dimensions.

Online
#74 Edited by Cergic (1099 posts) - -

Spot on

#75 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

@sungsam: Your explanation is flawed. For one thing, you still think that the archetypal infinity and the archetypal and eternal being are the same thing, despite the fact that you also think that archetypal infinity is a location while it is made clear the archetypal and eternal being is a being. Your explanation contains a self-contradiction. Furthermore, there is no such thing as an "Archetypal Eternity".

You also ignore the key piece of cosmology that is given to us a paragraph before hand, which I have not yet addressed your "debunk" of. I will do so now.

The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature.

While most of the impressions translated themselves to Carter as words, there were others to which other senses gave interpretation. Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantage-point he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size, and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other “Carters” his fancy or perception envisaged.

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

Your previous argument against the "infinity of directions" quote was that "there's an infinity of directions in an infinite 3D multiverse". However, this completely ignores the rest of the quote. The rest of that quote directly mentions that "the notion of a tri-dimensionalworld was limited", making it very clear that the rest of this quote is talking about how many dimensions make up the world, and that there are an infinity of directions besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left.

No matter how many infinite universes there are, if they were all 3D universes, they would still only have the directions of up-down, forward-back, and left-right. They would not have "an infinity of directions besides". This quote alone explains how the Lovecraft cosmology is infinite-dimensional, as it refers to "directions" as "up-down, forward-back, and right left", and those are dimensional axes. They are the X, Y and Z coordinates that can be moved along that exist in 3 dimensional space. If there is an infinity of directions to move in besides those axes, it means there are an infinity of other dimensional axes to move along, hence there are infinite dimensions. And when put in context with the surrounding paragraphs...

All of these paragraphs are Yog giving a better "grasp of the Cosmos" to Carter. They are all directly linked to each other. The second paragraph shows that what Carter has just learned about there being infinite dimensions is also allowing him to begin to understand why there can exist different variations of himself. The bit about "each form in space being cut from a form of one dimension greater" is Yog further improving Carter's understanding of how there can be so many versions of himself, which is itself a result of Carter learning about how the world has infinite dimensions. All linked together as part of the same explanation about the same part of the cosmology. Under your explanation that "Yog is just saying there's an infinity of ways to walk in an infinite 3D multiverse" in the first paragraph and "Yog is saying that the location of Archetypal Infinity lies above 5D space", the last paragraph is not improving Carter's understanding of the first, when they clearly are.

#76 Edited by Sungsam (2992 posts) - -

@zerothcause said:

@sungsam: Your explanation is flawed. For one thing, you still think that the archetypal infinity and the archetypal and eternal being are the same thing, despite the fact that you also think that archetypal infinity is a location while it is made clear the archetypal and eternal being is a being. Your explanation contains a self-contradiction. Furthermore, there is no such thing as an "Archetypal Eternity".

Yes indeed.

The Archetypal Infinity is just a precluding framework metaphor to let us understand the Archetypal and Eternal being. About how we, and all the little phases and dimensions are part of this greater Archetypal whole. That's why they're clearly referring to the same thing.

That's the entire point of how both passages are referring to lower phases of this greater thing.

It's both a location and a living thing, that which the lower worlds are part of.

Hence:

""is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it.""

See? Infinitesimal Geometric Worlds/Phases analogues are still used as being infinitesimal parts for the Archetypal Infinity, and then the Archetypal Eternal being. I can't see how they're not describing the same thing with just re-wording.

The Cube and the Plane being part of the Archetypal Infinity passage is linked with the lines of descending generations of beings, being infinitesimals of the Archetypal Eternal being. So the Archetypal Eternal being is in fact, also a geometric location on its own.

The Archetypal Infinity is just a precluding metaphor for the Archetypal Eternal being. Because the Archetypal Infinity was just infinitely greater than just finite phases. Hardly Infinite Dimensional at all.

Furthermore, humans and generations of beings are the infinitesimals of this grander archetypal infinity and eternal higher being. Proving that this Archetypal Infinity did not represent infinite layers of infinity, but just infinity number of infinitesimals comprising a regular infinity whole after all.

My theory makes more sense when you consider that Lovecraft's more re-clarified definition of the phases of each dimension are just descending lines of life form generations that are each infinitesimal phase parts of time phases of generations of a greater eternal infinity whole.

The Infinity is just an Eternity of how every infinitesimal time of life-time per descended being was an infinitesimal of that Eternal Infinity. One can see, that Lovecraft is mixing up Temporal with Spatial dimensions into one type. Just infinitely greater than finite.

The whole "Archetypal Infinity" was just a concept for metaphor. Like how a Universe is not literally a sphere, it's just the wave's representation of a 3-Dimensional Universe.

Your previous argument against the "infinity of directions" quote was that "there's an infinity of directions in an infinite 3D multiverse". However, this completely ignores the rest of the quote. The rest of that quote directly mentions that "the notion of a tri-dimensionalworld was limited", making it very clear that the rest of this quote is talking about how many dimensions make up the world, and that there arean infinity of directions besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left.

No matter how many infinite universes there are, if they were all 3D universes, they would still only have the directions of up-down, forward-back, and left-right. They would not have "an infinity of directions besides". This quote alone explains how the Lovecraft cosmology is infinite-dimensional, as it refers to "directions" as "up-down, forward-back, and right left", and those are dimensional axes. They are the X, Y and Z coordinates that can be moved along that exist in 3 dimensional space. If there is an infinity of directions to move in besides those axes, it means there are an infinity of other dimensional axes to move along, hence there are infinite dimensions. And when put in context with the surrounding paragraphs...

Not really, if there are Infinite 3-D Universes, there are infinite numbers of X, Y, Z coordinates per every Universe to go to if there are Infinity of them.

Universe 1 is one direction to go to, then Universe 2, then Universe 3, then infinite numbers of choices of directions to go to because our 3-D World is infinitesimal. Besides just going forward, up and left, you can go to infinite choices of universes. See? Explained.

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Zeroth, I also want to offer you my apology if I and you, disagree too much. I know we see on different perspectives, but I just want to say that I appreciate your tender patience with me. And apologize if I was also too rash earlier.

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#77 Posted by TonyStark6999 (2265 posts) - -
#78 Posted by omegalord4896 (14 posts) - -

wow, mental gymnastics everywhere its very obvious that yog is beyond infinite-D and the Cthulhu mythos cosmology is way beyond that of marvels. you guys are so delusional its not even funny. it is said in the sentence you quoted "All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions" it is literally said right there the space outside dimensions. you guys keep saying vs battles is bad you guys are straight up delusional.

#79 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - -

@omegalord4896: Yog, like it was stated by us several times, just transcends finite dimensions, which is not close to infinite-dimensional. And yeah...um...., VS battle wiki is bad. @sungsam and other dudes always dealing with guys like you who are saying: ''He transcends the concept of time, space and dimensions'', which is just reffering to finite dimensions. Tell me one reason why VS battle wiki is good. @zgtfreak We have a outversalist here.

#80 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - -

@omegalord4896: Such terms as ''outversal'' are just invented by people from a random wikia, which would make this tier system not better than a fan fiction. Every dimension in other verses works otherwise. Yog in DC for example would just be a infinite small atom, because the DC cosmology is way bigger than a 5-dimensional/infinite-dimensional/double infinite-dimensional cosmology. Sorry, but the VSbattle wiki tier system is not good. My english skills are not good, I hope you understand what I said!

#81 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - -

@omegalord4896: Or zgtfreak...is that you? Because you said you are going to troll with a alt.

#82 Posted by zgtfreak (1455 posts) - -
#83 Edited by Sungsam (2992 posts) - -

@omegalord4896 said:

wow, mental gymnastics everywhere its very obvious that yog is beyond infinite-D and the Cthulhu mythos cosmology is way beyond that of marvels. you guys are so delusional its not even funny. it is said in the sentence you quoted "All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions" it is literally said right there the space outside dimensions. you guys keep saying vs battles is bad you guys are straight up delusional.

The Archetypal Infinity passage is nothing more than a conceptual metaphor. You shouldn't take it literally as if to mean something it clearly doesn't later, as that would mean a Lovecraft Universe is a literally a sphere. No. It's not to be taken like an "Nth Degree description of Cosmology" in the context of this particular story. It's about how those finite number of dimensions are infinitesimal to the archetypal infinity later explained to be in fact outside the finite dimensions, not that the archetypal infinity represented more infinity in infinity.

Craft's true presentation of definition of dimension cosmology (as he clarified and rephrased the same cosmology thematic) was about how every descended line of finite living beings of different finite generations are just as phases are part of a greater archetypal eternal being. The Archetypal Infinity is just a precluding metaphor for the eternal Temporal Dimension entity that is only greater than finite living entities. The first passage was just to get you to understand the proof of concept first.

So if it is only about how regular life forms are infinitesimals of this greater archetypal cosmic entity. Thereby, an Archetypal Infinity location/entity.... that is only infinitely greater than finite beings is not Infinite Dimensional at all. Hardly.

Yeah, being outside dimensions like "Undimension tiering" literally does nothing for feats of power.

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On the other hand, whom I truly like an appreciate is Zeroth. He's the only one I can depend on, to proof check my debunk.

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#84 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

I feel I should note that nowhere does it say Yog only transcends finite dimensions. I keep seeing people say that "the text says Yog only transcends finite dimensional beings", which is incorrect. What is really going on is "the text only says Yog transcends finite dimensional beings". The first would be evidence that he isn't infinite dimensional. The second however says that yes he transcends finite dimensional beings, but it doesn't say it stops there.

@sungsam: Also, Lovecraft isn't mixing up time and space. In Lovecraft's cosmology, they are the same thing. Time and change do not exist. All dimensions are the same things. We know this from the Hounds of Tindalos:

Time is merely our imperfect perception of a new dimension of space. Time and motion are both illusions. Everything that has existed from the beginning of the world exists now. Events that occurred centuries ago on this planet continue to exist in another dimension of space. Events that will occur centuries from now exist already. We cannot perceive their existence because we cannot enter the dimension of space that contains them.

As well as from Through the Gates of The Silver Key

Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously.

These revelations came with a godlike solemnity which left Carter unable to doubt. Even though they lay almost beyond his comprehension, he felt that they must be true in the light of that final cosmic reality which belies all local perspectives and narrow partial views; and he was familiar enough with profound speculations to be free from the bondage of local and partial conceptions. Had his whole quest not been based upon a faith in the unreality of the local and partial?

After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change.

Not really, if there are Infinite 3-D Universes, there are infinite numbers of X, Y, Z coordinates per every Universe to go to if there are Infinity of them.

Universe 1 is one direction to go to, then Universe 2, then Universe 3, then infinite numbers of choices of directions to go to because our 3-D World is infinitesimal. Besides just going forward, up and left, you can go to infinite choices of universes. See? Explained.

If this was the correct explanation, then why would Yog specifically say that the notion of a tri-dimensional universe is limited? Why would he not say that the notion of a single universe is limited? He quite specifically and directly makes it clear that he's talking about spatial dimensions in the quote. It's the first thing he says. Spatial dimensions are directions to move, he makes that clear too when he describes those "directions" using dimensional axes. Just traveling to other 3D universes would only be one more "direction" to move, not an infinity of them.

Also, in regards to this whole "outerversal" thing, it seems to me that if we subscribe to dimensional tiering where a 5D being transcends a 4D and a 6D being transcends a 5D being, and so on up until an infinite-dimensional being transcending any finite-D being, then it seems like something that transcends infinite dimensions would just be the next step up in the idea of dimensional tiering. So I'm not quite sure why I'm seeing so much argument over the idea. Or is it just the word itself people don't like?

#85 Edited by Sungsam (2992 posts) - -

@zerothcause said:

I feel I should note that nowhere does it say Yog only transcends finite dimensions. I keep seeing people say that "the text says Yog only transcends finite dimensional beings", which is incorrect. What is really going on is "the text only says Yog transcends finite dimensional beings". The first would be evidence that he isn't infinite dimensional. The second however says that yes he transcends finite dimensional beings, but it doesn't say it stops there.

It's pretty much made clear that the Geometric Archetype was outside those dimensions that were stated a few words before it to be finite literally in the same sentence and no periods between them.

The same sentence tells you these finite dimensions are just parts of this Archetypal Infinity thing outside the dimensions entirely, so the dimensions are finite.

"All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions."

The Archetypal Infinity was a thing outside the dimensions (they were not dimensions but outside of it) and in the same sentence stated that those dimensions were finite. And in the same sentence states that those finite dimensions are part of this archetypal infinity, not that these archetypal infinity is infinite new dimensions.

The geometric cosmological higher archetypal cosmologism was outside the dimensions that are finite. Next quote, even proving more that the archetypal geometric infinity = the archetypal eternal being.

""is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it.""

One of the infinite facets or the INFINITE phases of the Archetypal being is just a finite one singular phase cut. It's really hardly Infinite Dimensional at all, it's made explicit that the Archetypal Geometric Infinity and the Archetypal and Eternal being outside the dimensions (that are finite) are the same thing.

It is an illogical impossibility for the Archetypal Infinity to be dimensions when its outside it, and stated in the same sentence that those dimensions were finite.

And then think that Archetypal Infinity is infinite levels of geometry when it's really just 1 more level up, and cannot continue the dimension hierarchy trend if it is outside geometric dimensions themselves.

So the Archetypal Infinity NEVER represented higher dimensions after all. But was infinitely greater than finite dimension phases. Hardly Infinite Dimensional at all. Really.

@sungsam: Also, Lovecraft isn't mixing up time and space. In Lovecraft's cosmology, they are the same thing. Time and change do not exist. All dimensions are the same things. We know this from the Hounds of Tindalos:

Exactly Zeroth. That's my point. That is why I know that eternity and infinity are syonyms, in the same way time and space are the same kind of dimension as eternity = infinity and how the Archetypal Eternity/Infinity Geometry was outside those dimensions and did not represent an infinity new number of higher dimensions but was just another level up of the finite dimensions.

Because they're talked in the same way with different rewording.

It's like Yog at the same time... represented an eternity temporal dimension, with the smaller lines of lower dimension beings being finite generation facets of the greater geometric archetype.

Yog Sothoth in the text represented eternal time, while the limited life spanned descending humans beings are like finite facet phases among a sea of an archetypal infinity and eternal space-time.

What I am saying, is that Eternity = Infinity, and Space Geometric Dimension = Time Dimension. It works perfectly aligned, putting that into context, it really isn't saying that this Archetypal Infinity really represented Infinite Higher Levels of Infinities, but was just a regular eternal infinity time-space dimension that which all the lower finites were a facet of.

That is again, hardly Infinite Dimensional at all. In fact, it just tells us clearly that this Archetypal Infinite and Eternal Space-Time was just infinitely greater than finite beings.

If this was the correct explanation, then why would Yog specifically say that the notion of a tri-dimensional universe is limited? Why would he not say that the notion of a single universe is limited? He quite specifically and directly makes it clear that he's talking about spatial dimensions in the quote. It's the first thing he says. Spatial dimensions are directions to move, he makes that clear too when he describes those "directions" using dimensional axes. Just traveling to other 3D universes would only be one more "direction" to move, not an infinity of them.

Because a Tri-Dimensional Universe is only an infinitesimal facet of an Archetypal Higher-Geometric being. And there are infinite more directions to go in a Cosmology like that, it doesn't need to be Infinite Hierarchal Layers of Megaverses.

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#86 Edited by omegalord4896 (14 posts) - -

alright let me prove to you that yog is beyond the concept of dimensions.

"The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature."

infinite directions means infinite dimensions since this is what dimensions are. 3D spatical dimension is us so we have x,y and z hence 3D which lovecraft clearly describes by saying tri-dimensional world. up and done is the y axis, right and left is the x axis and forwards and backwards is the z axis. now if you add another direction that would mean another axis which would give you the 4th dimension, add another one and thats the 5th axis and direction and therefore dimension. now as lovecraft clearly states with infinite direction directly correlates to infinite dimensions.

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

OK time to debunk your argument of archetypal infinite not corresponding to infinite dimensions. An archetype can be: a statement, pattern of behaviour, or prototype (model) which other statements, patterns of behavior, and objects copy or emulate(wikipedia). as lovecraft writes three dimensions is cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions which means the 3rd dimension is just an infinitesimal part of the 4th dimension hence why the 4th dimension is the archetype of the 3rd dimension. this is repeated with the 5th dimension with it being the archetype of the 4th dimension, then again with the 6th dimension and the then the 7th dimension etc... then this is repeated infinitly hence the archetypal infinite to the point of infinite dimensions with infinite dimensions being the archetype of all dimensions. and yog transcends all of this by an infinite amount of transcendence.

#87 Edited by Sungsam (2992 posts) - -

@omegalord4896 said:

alright let me prove to you that yog is beyond the concept of dimensions.

infinite directions means infinite dimensions since this is what dimensions are. 3D spatical dimension is us so we have x,y and z hence 3D which lovecraft clearly describes by saying tri-dimensional world. up and done is the y axis, right and left is the x axis and forwards and backwards is the z axis. now if you add another direction that would mean another axis which would give you the 4th dimension, add another one and thats the 5th axis and direction and therefore dimension. now as lovecraft clearly states with infinite direction directly correlates to infinite dimensions

The dimensions were stated to be a finite part of the Archetypal Infinite Space outside the dimensions. I already addressed this. Hence, the directions could only mean there are infinite more Universes.

And Outerversalist arguments are not relevant on this board.

OK time to debunk your argument of archetypal infinite not corresponding to infinite dimensions. An archetype can be: a statement, pattern of behaviour, or prototype (model) which other statements, patterns of behavior, and objects copy or emulate(wikipedia). as lovecraft writes three dimensions is cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions which means the 3rd dimension is just an infinitesimal part of the 4th dimension hence why the 4th dimension is the archetype of the 3rd dimension. this is repeated with the 5th dimension with it being the archetype of the 4th dimension, then again with the 6th dimension and the then the 7th dimension etc... then this is repeated infinitly hence the archetypal infinite to the point of infinite dimensions with infinite dimensions being the archetype of all dimensions. and yog transcends all of this by an infinite amount of transcendence.

Your mistake is that you keep assuming the Archetypal Infinity is infinite layers of dimensions when it's treated as a singular infinity of space outside finite dimensions.

The 5th Dimension is part of the Archetypal Infinity that which is the prototype for the 5th, 4th, 3rd dimensions and at the same time, Archetypal Infinity is OUTSIDE the dimensions. How can it be infinite dimensions when it's OUTSIDE dimensions?

. The Archetypal Infinity is the origin for the 5th, 4th, 3rd, etc. Your mistake is that he is saying that this Archetypal Infinity repeats the same infinite layered pattern when it's really just outside the dimensions that which finite dimensions are a finite part of.

Lovecraft made it clear that the Archetypal Infinity was a singular archetypal space outside the finite dimensions. With my bracket pointers in it. It's LITERALLY written write there.

"All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations (the finite dimensions are merely manifestations) of one archetypal and eternal (archetypal infinity) being in the space outside dimensions. (archetypal infinity is outside all the dimensions that are stated finite)"

The angles and dimensions represent only infinite phases of this archetypal infinity. The Archetypal Infinity is presented as eternal and infinite outside the finite dimensions.

You insist this Archetypal Infinity is infinite divided levels of dimensions when it's really a singular undivided archetypal infinite space outside the finite dimensions. It's really off.

""is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in theangle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it.""

Archetypal Infinity (which is outside the dimensions) only comprises of infinite numbers of FINITE phases (these are the finite dimensions) within that Archetypal Infinity. One of the INFINITE PHASES of this archetypal infinity are just small planes.

The first Archetypal Infinity passage is just a metaphor for describing the later more accurate and clear definition of this so called Archetypal Infinity. Because it represented our world as a 3-Dimensional Circle, doesn't mean the universe is a literal circle.

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This really literally doesn't matter if you proved those dimensions were infinite or not, because first, we're not Outerversalists on this board. Next, any Finite Dimension Multiverse of NEWER fictions using Metaversal Quantum Mechanics of infinitely instantaneously multiplying Multiverses (which is what Marvel is) would already automatically crap on Infinite Geometric Cosmology of an inferior old outdated Cosmology.

Hence, dimensions work very differently in different fictions. We use Dimensional Tiering here, but you could consider us revisionists against the typical VSBW/Outerversalist line of thought.

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#88 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

I dunno about the "concept" of dimensions, but Yog's definitely beyond infinite dimensions. He's repeated several times beyond time and space, and time and space in the Mythos is made of infinite dimensions. He's actually several layers beyond infinite dimensional space from what Hypnos tells us about the cosmology once you leave time and space behind.

Same with the archetypal infinity. You overthink the quote and try to add links where there aren't any. That you think the term "so on to archetypal infinity" is referring to going up to a being / location instead of just, you know, going "so on" forever, and that you make up your own terms to try and explain things like "the Archetypal Eternity", "Geometric Archetype" and worse, "geometric cosmological higher archetypal cosmologism" (terms that never appear in the cosmology) makes that clear. You've looked at that quote, come up with your own incorrect interpretation then taken your own incorrect interpretation of another quote, and you've put it all together to come up with an incorrect interpretation with your own words, your own terms, your own vision, based on overthinking things. And probably a strong dislike of Lovecraft based on how you seem to take any chance you get to insult his cosmology as inferior and outdated, even when it's not even a Lovecraft related thread.

And that's the crux of the issue. Everything you've said, all your explanations, that's all your interpretation. And I can't change your mind of your interpretation, because Lovecraft was never quite so blatant as to just outright say there's infinite dimensions. So whatever metaphorical insights and poetically worded explanations of there being infinite dimensions that I bring you, you'll just push them aside, come up with your own interpretation of the quote that fits your own vision of what the Mythos is like, and go on your merry way. This argument is going to go on forever because neither you nor I can bring the other person the evidence they want to conclusively prove their point. So I think it's best if we stop.

#89 Edited by ZerothCause (19 posts) - -

Given that this thread is all about who wins between Yog and Multi-Eternity though, I'll just say my opinion there before I leave.

Yog-Sothoth is a being who embodies everything in his verse save for Azathoth ("allied to reality's whole unbounded sweep", "All in One and One in All", being the "SUPREME ARCHETYPE" [caps was Lovecraft, I'm just quoting]), including the other Outer Gods, all of whom are beings several layers of infinite voids beyond time and space (that's from Hypnos) and time and space is infinite dimensional (that's from through Gates of the Silver Key).

Meanwhile, Multi-Eternity is an infinite dimensional being who embodies a really really really huge infinitely dimensioned multiverse - but he's not actually anywhere more than that.

People here seems to love their dimensional tiering from what I've seen, so I'm willing to bet that people here would say a 6D being who controls a 6D universe wins over a 4D being who controls with a constantly multiplying infinite 4D multiverse. So under that logic, I see nothing wrong with saying that a being who is several layers beyond infinite dimensions wins over a being who is only infinitely dimensioned, no matter how powerful that infinitely dimensioned beings.

That's my piece. I'm out.

#90 Posted by omegalord4896 (14 posts) - -

I agree with you zeroth. Though yog is beyond all concepts and is clearly shown to be beyond the concept of dimensions. There is an infinite amount of great old ones who are baseline above the concept of dimensions(hyponos was infinitly superior to them).then you have beings beyond the first gate who basically are to undimensioned great old ones what they are to 3rd dimensional beings. This process is repeated an infinite amount of times then you have the ultimate gate where the outer gods reside beyond in the ultimate void. And these beings are literally less than nothing to the supreme archetype yog-sothoth who is beyond all of totality.

#91 Posted by omegalord4896 (14 posts) - -

@sungsam: you do realise when he said "beings of finite dimensions" he still means infinite dimensions right? let me clarify myself, when lovecraft stated beings of finite dimensions he meant beings within the spectrum of infinite dimensions. eg. 4th,5th 12th, 20th,10000th,99999999th whatever number are all finite numbers that represent dimensions hence the saying "beings of finite dimensions" which corresponds to beings of these infinite finite numbers that represent dimensions. infinite is just a never ending number of finite numbers. this also makes me wonder where the hell you got the 6th dimensional tiering for yog, honestly it just seems like you hate lovecraft and his cosmology and excuse me for saying this but i honestly think your just twisting facts and interpretations so they lye within your head-cannon which i really dont appreciate since you accuse us of doing that.

Yog shares its endless knowledge with Carter, causing him to learn a great many things. The first is that there are an infinite number of dimensions, and beings of each number of dimensions. There exists an infinite number of dimensions possible beyond merely three or four, and the Ancient Ones, along with Yog's avatar from earlier, vastly transcend all of this. However, even they are merely the smallest fragments of the beings who exist beyond the Ultimate Gate, who can bend everything to their will. They exist beyond all forms of causality, and know only a changeless totality beyond all perspective, which exists only at their will. Yet still, all these archetypes, the beings who are changeless and boundless, always experiencing the solitary totality of everything which is molded and only exists because they will it, are merely infinitesimally small facets of Yog-Sothoth itself, hence why it is the All-In-One.

i really cant see why we are even arguing yog's power at this point as he clearly isn't merely 6D with that interpretation being straight up wrong.

#92 Edited by etriel (513 posts) - -

i d

#94 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - -

@omegalord4896: Really won't argue about Lovecrafts cosmology here, but....um....how is cthulhus cosmology above marvels? Ok, let's just say Lovecrafts cosmology is infinite dimensional....Marvel, at his peak, was a double infinite-dimensional quantum multiverse (Infinite layers of infinite-dimensional multiverses), which creates a infinite-dimensional multiverse in every quantum moment (Definition of a quantum multiverse). How is Cthulhus cosmology above marvels here? Anyway, there is no proof that Yog goes actually beyond the concept of dimensions, because he actually embodies a infinite-dimensional multiverse (YOU INTERPRETATION. Like I said, I stay out of this). So Yog-Sothoth isn't beyond the concept of dimensions. When the other outer gods are just infinite small aspects from him, it would implie that they aren't infinite-dimensional. The Living Tribunal at his peak can spit away the lovecraft verse, when it's just infinite-dimensional (You interpretation).

#95 Edited by omegalord4896 (14 posts) - -

my friend i have stated numerous times that yog not only encompasses this infinite dimensional reality, but also transcends it by countless infinities, and thats only his avatar. then you have the actual yog which transcends his avatar by countless infinities.

• An avatar of Yog-Sothoth, one who is but the tiniest sliver of his essence, guards the gate, beyond time and space, which leads to the ultimate void beyond all things.
• "By the time the rite was over Carter knew that he was in no region whose place could be told by earth’s geographers, and in no age whose date history could fix. For the nature of what was happening was not wholly unfamiliar to him. There were hints of it in the cryptical Pnakotic fragments, and a whole chapter in the forbidden Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred had taken on significance when he had deciphered the designs graven on the Silver Key. A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter.

There would be a Guide—and a very terrible one; a Guide who had been an entity of earth millions of years before, when man was undreamed of, and when forgotten shapes moved on a steaming planet building strange cities among whose last, crumbling ruins the earliest mammals were to play. Carter remembered what the monstrous Necronomicon had vaguely and disconcertingly adumbrated concerning that Guide." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key

• Even the horrible, dimensionless monstrosities of the infinite blackness are said to pale in comparison to this avatar. Keep in mind, this is still nothing but an infinitely small and insignificant avatar of Yog's true self.
• " 'And while there are those,' the mad Arab had written, 'who have dared to seek glimpses beyond the Veil, and to accept HIM as a Guide, they would have been more prudent had they avoided commerce with HIM; for it is written in the Book of Thoth how terrific is the price of a single glimpse. Nor may those who pass ever return, for in the Vastnesses transcending our world are Shapes of darkness that seize and bind. The Affair that shambleth about in the night, the Evil that defieth the Elder Sign, the Herd that stand watch at the secret portal each tomb is known to have, and that thrive on that which groweth out of the tenants within—all these Blacknesses are lesser than HE Who guardeth the Gateway; HE Who will guide the rash one beyond all the worlds into the Abyss of unnamable Devourers. For HE is’UMR AT-TAWIL, the Most Ancient One, which the scribe rendereth as THE PROLONGED OF LIFE.' " - Through the Gates of the Silver Key
• More talk of reality unbound by dimensions. Again, this is still the area before the "ultimate void", which Carter has yet to enter.
• "Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key

• Carter finally meets this fabled ancient avatar of Yog, the one said to be more terrible than the beings of the vastness transcending space. However, we find out that what makes this being so terrifying to others is not that it is some great and terrible beast like many of the other things beyond our understanding, but instead that it is so unfathomably powerful, yet radiates no anger or malign nature, whatsoever. Oh, it's also omniscient.
• "There was another Shape, too, which occupied no pedestal, but which seemed to glide or float over the cloudy, floor-like lower level. It was not exactly permanent in outline, but held transient suggestions of something remotely preceding or paralleling the human form, though half as large again as an ordinary man. It seemed to be heavily cloaked, like the Shapes on the pedestals, with some neutral-coloured fabric; and Carter could not detect any eye-holes through which it might gaze. Probably it did not need to gaze, for it seemed to belong to an order of being far outside the merely physical in organisation and faculties.

A moment later Carter knew that this was so, for the Shape had spoken to his mind without sound or language. And though the name it uttered was a dreaded and terrible one, Randolph Carter did not flinch in fear. Instead, he spoke back, equally without sound or language, and made those obeisances which the hideous Necronomicon had taught him to make. For this Shape was nothing less than that which all the world has feared since Lomar rose out of the sea and the Winged Ones came to earth to teach the Elder Lore to man. It was indeed the frightful Guide and Guardian of the Gate—’Umr at-Tawil, the ancient one, which the scribe rendereth the Prolonged of Life.

The Guide knew, as he knew all things, of Carter’s quest and coming, and that this seeker of dreams and secrets stood before him unafraid. There was no horror or malignity in what he radiated, and Carter wondered for a moment whether the mad Arab’s terrific blasphemous hints, and extracts from the Book of Thoth, might not have come from envy and a baffled wish to do what was now about to be done. Or perhaps the Guide reserved his horror and malignity for those who feared. As the radiations continued, Carter mentally interpreted them in the form of words." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key

• Carter realizes just how absurd the idea that these ancient being are "evil" or "malicious" is, as assuming they would even bother to acknowledge mankind is an asinine notion.
• "He wondered at the vast conceit of those who had babbled of the malignant Ancient Ones, as if They could pause from their everlasting dreams to wreak a wrath upon mankind. As well, he thought, might a mammoth pause to visit frantic vengeance on an angleworm. Now the whole assemblage on the vaguely hexagonal pillars was greeting him with a gesture of those oddly carven sceptres, and radiating a message which he understood..." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key

• After Randolph Carter passes through the Ultimate Gate, his sense of self basically gets annihilated. He realizes that every version of "Randolph Carter" to have ever existed is nothing but the tiniest, most insignificant facet of an impossibly large, true "Randolph Carter" beyond the confines of all reality and dimensional space, and as he soon learns, even this "Carter" is but a facet of something unfathomably greater.
• "And then, suddenly, he felt a greater terror than that which any of the Forms could give—a terror from which he could not flee because it was connected with himself. Even the First Gateway had taken something of stability from him, leaving him uncertain about his bodily form and about his relationship to the mistily defined objects around him, but it had not disturbed his sense of unity. He had still been Randolph Carter, a fixed point in the dimensional seething. Now, beyond the Ultimate Gateway, he realised in a moment of consuming fright that he was not one person, but many persons.

He was in many places at the same time. On earth, on October 7, 1883, a little boy named Randolph Carter was leaving the Snake-Den in the hushed evening light and running down the rocky slope and through the twisted-boughed orchard toward his Uncle Christopher’s house in the hills beyond Arkham—yet at that same moment, which was also somehow in the earthly year of 1928, a vague shadow not less Randolph Carter was sitting on a pedestal among the Ancient Ones in earth’s trans-dimensional extension. Here, too, was a third Randolph Carter in the unknown and formless cosmic abyss beyond the Ultimate Gate. And elsewhere, in a chaos of scenes whose infinite multiplicity and monstrous diversity brought him close to the brink of madness, were a limitless confusion of beings which he knew were as much himself as the local manifestation now beyond the Ultimate Gate.

There were “Carters” in settings belonging to every known and suspected age of earth’s history, and to remoter ages of earthly entity transcending knowledge, suspicion, and credibility. “Carters” of forms both human and non-human, vertebrate and invertebrate, conscious and mindless, animal and vegetable. And more, there were “Carters” having nothing in common with earthly life, but moving outrageously amidst backgrounds of other planets and systems and galaxies and cosmic continua. Spores of eternal life drifting from world to world, universe to universe, yet all equally himself. Some of the glimpses recalled dreams—both faint and vivid, single and persistent—which he had had through the long years since he first began to dream, and a few possessed a haunting, fascinating, and almost horrible familiarity which no earthly logic could explain.

Faced with this realisation, Randolph Carter reeled in the clutch of supreme horror—horror such as had not been hinted even at the climax of that hideous night when two had ventured into an ancient and abhorred necropolis under a waning moon and only one had emerged. No death, no doom, no anguish can arouse the surpassing despair which flows from a loss of identity. Merging with nothingness is peaceful oblivion; but to be aware of existence and yet to know that one is no longer a definite being distinguished from other beings—that one no longer has a self—that is the nameless summit of agony and dread.

He knew that there had been a Randolph Carter of Boston, yet could not be sure whether he—the fragment or facet of an earthly entity beyond the Ultimate Gate—had been that one or some other. His self had been annihilated; and yet he—if indeed there could, in view of that utter nullity of individual existence, be such a thing as he—was equally aware of being in some inconceivable way a legion of selves. It was as though his body had been suddenly transformed into one of those many-limbed and many-headed effigies sculptured in Indian temples, and he contemplated the aggregation in a bewildered attempt to discern which was the original and which the additions—if indeed (supremely monstrous thought) there were any original as distinguished from other embodiments.

Then, in the midst of these devastating reflections, Carter’s beyond-the-gate fragment was hurled from what had seemed the nadir of horror to black, clutching pits of a horror still more profound. This time it was largely external—a force or personality which at once confronted and surrounded and pervaded him, and which in addition to its local presence, seemed also to be a part of himself, and likewise to be coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space. There was no visual image, yet the sense of entity and the awful concept of combined localism, identity, and infinity lent a paralysing terror beyond anything which any Carter-fragment had hitherto deemed capable of existing." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key

• Randolph Carter finally meets the true Yog-Sothoth, who is obviously infinitely more impressive than its already awe-inspiring avatar. Yog-Sothoth, even amongst these beings who vastly transcend dimensional space, and the beings who transcend them, is viewed as boundless. It has limitless being and self, and is allied with everything. The entity outreaches all confines, and all that is and isn't, that can and cannot be, is just another part of the thing known as Yog-Sothoth. All deities that are worshipped and all "gods" that the limited beings of reality can come up with are nothing but the tiniest of fragments of an otherwise incomprehensible being viewed as their own selves, when in reality, as Carter discovers, there is no "self". There is only Yog-Sothoth. In a (comparatively) much less impressive feat, simply being spoken to by Yog-Sothoth is likened to being in the center of universes slamming together and being obliterated.
• "In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are.

And now the BEING was addressing the Carter-facet in prodigious waves that smote and burned and thundered—a concentration of energy that blasted its recipient with well-nigh unendurable violence, and that followed, with certain definite variations, the singular unearthly rhythm which had marked the chanting and swaying of the Ancient Ones, and the flickering of the monstrous lights, in that baffling region beyond the First Gate. It was as though suns and worlds and universes had converged upon one point whose very position in space they had conspired to annihilate with an impact of resistless fury. But amidst the greater terror one lesser terror was diminished; for the searing waves appeared somehow to isolate the beyond-the-gate Carter from his infinity of duplicates—to restore, as it were, a certain amount of the illusion of identity. After a time the hearer began to translate the waves into speech-forms known to him, and his sense of horror and oppression waned. Fright became pure awe, and what had seemed blasphemously abnormal seemed now only ineffably majestic." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key

• Yog offers to share its omniscience with Carter, showing him the answers to all mysteries in every uncaring cosmos. However, it offers him the choice of whether or not to accept the offer, for while Yog already knows the answer, it allows Carter the opportunity to look inside himself and determine if he can handle it.

" 'What you wish, I have found good; and I am ready to grant that which I have granted eleven times only to beings of your planet—five times only to those you call men, or those resembling them. I am ready to shew you the Ultimate Mystery, to look on which is to blast a feeble spirit. Yet before you gaze full at that last and first of secrets you may still wield a free choice, and return if you will through the two Gates with the Veil still unrent before your eyes.' " - Through the Gates of the Silver Key

• Yog shares its endless knowledge with Carter, causing him to learn a great many things. The first is that there are an infinite number of dimensions, and beings of each number of dimensions. There exists an infinite number of dimensions possible beyond merely three or four, and the Ancient Ones, along with Yog's avatar from earlier, vastly transcend all of this. However, even they are merely the smallest fragments of the beings who exist beyond the Ultimate Gate, who can bend everything to their will. They exist beyond all forms of causality, and know only a changeless totality beyond all perspective, which exists only at their will. Yet still, all these archetypes, the beings who are changeless and boundless, always experiencing the solitary totality of everything which is molded and only exists because they will it, are merely infinitesimally small facets of Yog-Sothoth itself, hence why it is the All-In-One.
• "The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature.

While most of the impressions translated themselves to Carter as words, there were others to which other senses gave interpretation. Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantage-point he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size, and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other “Carters” his fancy or perception envisaged.

Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously.

These revelations came with a godlike solemnity which left Carter unable to doubt. Even though they lay almost beyond his comprehension, he felt that they must be true in the light of that final cosmic reality which belies all local perspectives and narrow partial views; and he was familiar enough with profound speculations to be free from the bondage of local and partial conceptions. Had his whole quest not been based upon a faith in the unreality of the local and partial?

After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will.

#96 Posted by omegalord4896 (14 posts) - -

i would love to see you just try to counter my arguments, at this point with all this clear evidence. yog is beyond all the entities of DC and marvel and for you to say anything else is extreme mental gymnastics.

#97 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - -

@omegalord4896: Need to go to sleep soon (I live in germany), but the first point is just a outversal fallacy. Like VS battle wiki, you confuse vector dimensions with space-time dimensions.

• Even the horrible, dimensionless monstrosities of the infinite blackness are said to pale in comparison to this avatar. Keep in mind, this is still nothing but an infinitely small and insignificant avatar of Yog's true self.

My friend, you can't say that this avatar is dimensionless, because dimensions in every fiction works otherwise. That he goes beyond the concept of dimensions just reffers to lovecraft and not to other fictions, which is because I use the cosmological dimensional tiering. Let's just make an example...The IMPS from DC, that are come from the 5th dimension are beyond the DC metaverse, which creates double infinite-dimensional multiverses in zero time....See, they get implied as finite-dimensional beings in DC, but are still countless infinities above a metaverse, which creates double-infinite dimensional multiverses in zero time, which would make him on par with Yog-Sothoth ACCORDING TO YOU'RE LOGIC.

Just an example, you know....

Anyway, I have to sleep now.

#98 Posted by Yasindermann (675 posts) - -

@omegalord4896 And I would like to add that my english skills are not good, but I think you understand me.

#99 Posted by omegalord4896 (14 posts) - -

yes i can. because the avatar is beyond the concept of dimensions which does put him above all dimensional being infinite or not. numerous times its mentioned that he is beyond the concept of dimensions and is way beyond even beings that transcend this infinite dimensional reality. it is not outversal fallacy if its true my friend according to the passage and quotes i listed above. please read the above passage in detail when you have time.

#100 Posted by omegalord4896 (14 posts) - -

i also would like to mention that yog encompasses a reality that contains infinite possibilities and impossibilities while vastly transcending it all. which lo and behold, contains this stacked infinite-dimensional multiverse of yours probably since it contains all possibility and impossibilities.