Yoda and Sidious ROTS vs Plagueis and Caedus

VS

bump

Team 2. I even might go as far as to say they win handily. And adding Anakin in doesn't mean anything because he would be a complete non-factor here. Definitely out of his league.

Team 2 should take this. Darth Sidious and Yoda vs Darth Caedus and Darth Plagueis alone would be a match with insane discussion value - and could possible go either way, adding someone like Tenebrous in would only assure a win for team 2. Adding Anakin in would make it closer, but team 2 still takes it in my opinion.

I will remove Tenebrous then.

@penderor: @dccomicsrule2011:

With the new OP, I think that team 1 would win because imo Plagueis is the weakest one here.

Caedus, Yoda, and ROTS Sidious are around equal while Plagueis is a little below them.

One will hold off Caedus while one defeats Plagueis and once he's done he'll go help whoever is fighting Caedus

Team 1 every time. Palpatine > Caedus, Yoda > Plagues.

Palpatine > Plagueis, Yoda >=< Caedus.

Agreed.

@jedixman: Why would Plagueis and Caedus win?

going with with team 1 but still not sure.

Because I don't believe that Palpatine, at this point, is quite as overall powerful as Palpatine.

It could go either way, though. I feel as if Plagueis might be a weak link here.

@jedixman: Palpatine isn't as powerful as Palpatine?

This is RotS Palpatine, who is still the most powerful Sith Lord in history. He is ahead of Caedus, and Yoda ahead of Plagueis.

@shootingnova: Palpatine maybe more powerful, but I would argue that Jacen is more skilled, and the more versatile combatant.

@shootingnova: @jedixman: @dccomicsrule2011: Isn't Caedus just about as good as Yoda and Sidious?

@spartankobe: Yes, yes he is.

@dccomicsrule2011: Ok then. I honestly don't see team 2 winning because Plagueis is the weakest one.

Basically what I said earlier.

@spartankobe: I don't think Plagueis is far off from Yoda or Palpatine to be honest. Via the function of the Rule of Two, and Plagueis overall knowledge in combat, I think it's safe to say he is in the same skill tier as Yoda - and he is every bit as powerful as hiim, as well as a near physical equal to Yoda.

Fun fact: James Luceno said in an interveiw, that he thinks Plagueis would have defeated TPM Sidious had there been a proper one-on-one duel. While his words isn't 100 percent canon, it still holds some weight as he basically created the Darth Plagueis character, and wrote a chunk of Sidious good showing and feats for that time period.

@dccomicsrule2011: Hmm. I think this might be an even split if it is indeed true that Plagueis is about as good as the other three.

I've personally always believed Caedus>Yoda(prepares for fan rage) He has a host of esoteric abilities at his disposal and is one of the best duelist in the lore. Even managing to survive an onslaught against a Grand Master Luke Skywalker that was trying to kill him. Granted he had an environment advantage. If Plageuis can hold off Sidious long enough for Caedus to defeat Yoda then team 2 has this.

@dccomicsrule2011: hm that is actually quite interesting. How much would you say Sidious improved between TPM and RotS?

Makes sense to me. TPM Sidious never fought Plagueis one on one to ensure that he was the more powerful of the two, and killed his master through cunning. While he went on to become more powerful over time, it's easy enough to see why he may not have been more powerful when the first film was taking place.

@dark_passenger: Sidious powers obviously increased, but I have no idea on the extent of it. His feats in ever category increased by a more than marginal amount. Now I do think Sidious would win a majority over Plagueis during ROTS - I think Plagueis could get some wins out of 10.

@dccomicsrule2011: Caedus has no skill feats to exceed Palpatine's, who is an equal for Yoda, nor is he "more versatile". That, and he is also hampered by his own lack of consistency.

He is just under them.

Team 1. Sidious should be stronger than Plagueis by ROTS, and Yoda on his side makes an majority, or if not all wins.

@ssjdarthplagueis:

I'm surprised you would say that.

Dat username. XD

I said he "should be" pass Plagueis. I'm not too sure. For all we know he could be in par with him in ROTS. I think Plagueis can keep up with Yoda and Sidious at this time. He is one of the most powerfulest Sith of all time.

Team 1.

Caedus is the weak link. I don't believe that he is at Sidious, Yoda, Plagueis level...

@erkan12: Caedus is clearly at their level. He fought Luke to a near-draw, and Luke is both faster and more skilled than anybody there (except for Palpatine, who rivals Luke in speed, but not skill). Caedus's power showings may be inferior to theirs, but his skill, speed, endurance and versatility showings are easily between them (exceeding Plagueis, and about on par with Yoda). Considering how he is at least as strong as Plagueis, I see no reason for anybody to be called a weak link.

I did make a blog addressing this, and there were a few threads regarding this as well. As far as I believe, Sidious would only lose 6/10 in Plagueis' favor at most. He has the better skill feats, rivaling physical feats, and comparable power feats. Plagueis's greater power showings could elevate him to beyond Palpatine, but only marginally, not exponentially.

I don't see a reason as to why we shouldn't believe Luceno, though. On top of being one of the very best authors of Star Wars in general, he is also one of the most consistent writers that I know of - not just within his own works, but with others, as well, which is what forms a realistically believable continuity.

On a side note, I think if this thread was TPM Palpatine, I would see a excellent fight here, probably better than the one already presented.

Well, I will favour Plagueis here. And the reasons are ;

• Midi-chlorian manipulation
• Undefeated in duels

Plagueis is the only one here who is capable of killing some one via midichlorian manipulation, sure he did this to only a fodder (Veruna), however no one force him to use this card in duels as well. He easily defeated Darth Venamis and TPM Darth Sidious was afraid to challange him in direct duel...

“Had you known, would you have allied with me?” Veruna marshaled the strength to shake his head.

“Political power is one thing, but what you represent …” Plagueis made his lips a thin line. “I appreciate your honesty, Veruna. Are you beginning to tire of my presence?”

“Not … of you,” Veruna said, with eyes half closed. “Let me explain what is happening to you,” Plagueis said. “The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like

me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midichlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you.” Veruna’s face was losing color, and his breathing had

slowed. “Bring … me back. I can still be … of service … to you …” “But you are, Your Majesty. A celebrated ancient poet once said that every death lessened him, for he considered himself to be a brother to every living being. I, on the other hand, have come to understand that every death I oversee nourishes and empowers me, for I am a true Sith.” “No … better than … an Anzati.”

“The brain eaters? What does better than mean to those of us who have passed beyond notions of good and evil? Are you better than Bon Tapalo? Are you better than Queen Padmé Amidala? I am the only one fit to answer the question. Better are those who do my bidding.” Plagueis placed his hand atop Veruna’s. “I’ll remain with you for a while as you meld with the Force. But at some point, I will have to leave you at the threshold to continue on your own.” “Don’t do this … Damask. Please …”

“I am Darth Plagueis, Veruna. Your shepherd.” As life left Veruna’s body, the path he and Plagueis followed wound deeper into darkness and absence. Then Plagueis stopped, overcome by a sudden sense that he had already seen and traveled this path. Had he? he wondered as Veruna breathed his last. Or had the Force afforded him a glimpse of the future?

Source : Darth Plagueis

I also believe that Plagueis has the advantage over Telekinesis & Force bellow, atomized six maladian, rattled the floor strong enough to knock out the assassins... Also his force bellow strong as a sonic weapon. However TK difference is not much, since both Sidious & Yoda has decent TK showings. Against TK, TP or Force lightning (or even Force bellow), these trio can defend themselves against these features however midichlorian manipulation is something only Plagueis can do. Thats why I don't believe even Sidious can defend himself against that ability.

Plagueis hardly defeated Venamis easily. He received a blow to the shoulder, and Venamis has no feats.

Worse for Plagueis, Tenebrous had made Venamis an expert in Plagueis’s style, and so the Bith could not only anticipate but counter Plagueis’s every move. In short order, Venamis penetrated his defenses, searing the side of Plagueis’s neck.

Source: Darth Plagueis

The feat may be impressive, but Plagueis has no dueling feats to allow him to properly compete with anybody here. Plagueis is undefeated in duels, but so is RotS Palpatine, Yoda, and essentially Caedus (except for Luke, who would stomp Plagueis in raw skill). The difference is, that Plagueis has only fought one opponent, who has no showings, and the rest have a myriad of showings to support their skill class.

Midi-chlorian manipulation is not a valid tool either. That has never been displayed in a fight, and Palpatine knows Midi-chlorian manipulation as well, and whether Plagueis could utilize it against anybody of note is questionable to begin with, because he has only used it on dying characters such as Venamis and Veruna, who were helpless. Plagueis never used Midi-chlorian manipulation in a fight, has never displayed it on any healthy beings (only dying and helpless characters), nor on anybody of the power class of any of the other three in this fight, and he has no combative showings on par with these characters, only inferred skill levels. Beyond that, RotS Sidious > TPM Sidious, especially since he became more powerful with Plagueis's death to begin with. Plagueis's duel with Venamis showed that he only occasionally uses offensive Force powers in mid-duel, and it was TK only.

Caedus can also utilize Art of the Small to counter Plagueis's Midi-chlorian manipulation, but again, neither of them would use it in a fight.

The facts are that:

1. Plagueis is the worst duelist here, and may not even be in the same tier as the others in skill.

2. Skill is the most pertinent factor here, since all of these Force users are of comparable power, and in such cases, they rely on their blades to defeat their opponents, not power. Palpatine and Yoda > Caedus and Plagueis in power to begin with.

3. Plagueis is the slowest of the characters - not exponentially, of course, but it should still be noted.

4. With morals on, midi-chlorian manipulation will not be used, and TK will only be used sparingly. Again, the biggest contributor to the determination of the victor(s) is skill, not power.

Plagueis is not winning a majority or obtaining a draw against anybody here, because of his inferior skill showings.

I think Venamis was at least good as Maul - Dooku - Vader level, though this is debatable and it is just my opinion.

Worse for Plagueis, Tenebrous had made Venamis an expert in Plagueis’s style, and so the Bith could not only anticipate but counter Plagueis’s every move.

And not to mention, Plagueis had the disadvantage in duel. Tenebrous made Venamis an expert in Plagueis's style,

At the height of Venamis’s attack, Plagueis came back into himself with such fury that his lightsaber became a blinding rod. A two-handed upward swing launched from between his legs caught Venamis off guard. The blade didn’t go deep enough to puncture the Bith’s lung but scorched him from chest to chin. As his large, cleft head snapped backward in retreat, Plagueis brought his lightsaber straight down, tearing Venamis’s weapon from his gloved hand and nearly taking off his long fingers, as well. With a gesture of his other hand, Venamis called for his lightsaber, but Plagueis was a split second quicker, and the hilt shot into his own right hand. Sensing a storm of Force lightning building in the Bith, he crossed the two crimson blades in front of him and said: “Yield!”

Plagueis even anticipated the force lightning attack from Venamis, before he performs it Plagueis reacted.

And Plagueis has shown that he is a split second faster than Venamis. Another decent combat speed showing.

No, he isn't. He has no showings at all.

You have no basis for this claim, only that you wish it to be so in order to elevate Plagueis's skill level. Is the showing impressive? Yes, because of the circumstances surrounding the fight. However, Venamis still lacks skill feats.

You can entertain whatever illusions you will - I am too tired to argue them with you, but I can say for a fact that you cannot prove Venamis is "at least as good" as Maul, Tyranus or Vader, because he has no feats. Moreover, none of this rivals or approaches Yoda and Palpatine stalemating one another, or Caedus almost stalemating Luke, a character who is a full tier or two ahead of Plagueis. And I don't care for whatever words you choose to hide behind. Whether it is "just your opinion" or not is irrelevant unless you can substantiate it, otherwise you are both making up information and appealing to ignorance.

That goes both ways. Both Plagueis and Venamis used the same style.

Venamis is not as fast as anybody here. In fact, he isn't even in the same speed tier. Plagueis is still the slowest out of the combatants present.

Since Plagueis has decent speed showings, I doubt that speed is going to be problem for anyone here.

Plagueis's running speed exceeds a blaster bolt, and he was fast enough create blur images to 11-4D. (Same droid can dodge from blaster bolts)

Speedblitzing Young Sidious ;

“I understand, Master,” Sidious managed in a stuttering voice.

Plagueis showed him a malevolent smile. “I once said as much to my Master, when in fact I understood nothing. I merely wanted to put an end to the pain.” In a blur of motion, he tore open the front of Sidious’s enviro-suit.

He tore a enviro-suit in a blur of motion,

Plagueis fixed the lightsaber hilt to his hip and set out at a fast clip, all but outracing the rain. If the scanners and motion detectors were as precise as they appeared to be, they would find him, though his speed might cause whoever was monitoring the security devices to mistake him for one of the wild, bushy-tailed quadrupeds that inhabited the landscape. He paused at the nebulous edge of the illuminated area to confirm his bearings, then made straight for the castle’s ten-meter-high southern wall and leapt to the top without breaking stride. Just as quickly and as effortlessly he dropped into the garden below and sprinted into the shadows cast by an ornamental shrub trimmed to resemble some whimsical beast.

Outraces the rain.

Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of the contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest’s understory.

Moves like lightning in a forest...

Plagueis put his words into action as the first ring of droids began to converge on them, staggering the attack and triggering bursts at random. Orbiting Sidious, the Muun's blade warded off every volley, returning the bolts to their sources, or deflecting them into the facades of the faux buildings surrounding them or into other droids. At other times Plagueis made no attempt to redirect the attacks, but simply torqued his rangy body, allowing the bolts to miss him by centimeters. Around the two Sith, the automata collapsed one after the next, gushing lubricants from holed reservoirs or exploding in a hail of alloy parts, until all were heaped on the ferrocrete floor.

"The next ring is yours," Plagueis said.

Orbiting Young Sidious, warded off every volley... Another decent skill and speed showing.

And not to mention, RotS Sidious considered Plagueis as ''so powerful'' ...

Palpatine: Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?

Anakin: No.

Palpatine: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create...life. He had such a knowledge of the Dark Side, he could even keep the ones he cared about...from dying.

Anakin: He could actually...save people from death?

Palpatine: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

Anakin: What happened to him?

Palpatine: He became so powerful, the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power...which, eventually of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew. Then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Ironic. He could save others from death...but not himself.

Anakin: Is it possible to learn this power?

Palpatine: Not from a Jedi.

@erkan12:

@spartankobe: Before considering the Plagueis is the weakest one here ...What is ridiculous.

Did you ever read the Darth Plagueis novel ? It seems to me, you are just talking with other people's thoughts here.

@dccomicsrule2011: @jedixman: @shootingnova: @erkan12: @killerwasp@i_like_swords:For over a thousand threads the star wars experts were the guardians of peace and justice in the battle forums. Before the Maul fanboys. Before the trolls. A young debater named erkan12, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to trolling, helped the Windu fanboys hunt down and destroy the star wars experts. Now the star wars experts are all but instinct. Erkan was seduced by the troll side of the force.

@spartankobe: I'm not an expert on Star Wars as a whole. Just a few characters.

If youre trying to mention all the experts, then you're missing quite a few.

@silver2467@jaken7@dominis@eisenfauste, and there are many more.

But you probably weren't trying to mention them all.

@faymousinus: silver has not posted in months. Did he just get tired of this forum? lol

@spartankobe: Doesn't make any difference.

No, he got tried of trolls.

And Plagueis considered Palpatine as overwhelmingly powerful before Palpatine received any training at all.

Plagueis has decent speed showings, I doubt that speed is going to be problem for anyone here.

He's the slowest by a noticeable margin.

Plagueis's running speed exceeds a blaster bolt, and he was fast enough create blur images to 11-4D. (Same droid can dodge from blaster bolts)

Running faster than a blaster bolt is nowhere near impressive. Caedus ran faster than a blaster bolt whilst injured.

As for the 11-4D feat, Caedus has fought faster than Ben could see, and Ben has superior combat and reaction speeds to 11-4D by a significant margin. We also have Palpatine fighting faster than Maul or Anakin could see - and Yoda competing with him.

Speedblitzing Young Sidious ;

Not very impressive. Palpatine by this point had few feats.

He tore a enviro-suit in a blur of motion,

Which Palpatine could do before he received any training in the Force.

Outraces the rain.

Decent showing - not really comparable to the others.

Moves like lightning in a forest...

This would be his best feat. Again, not as good as any of the others'.

Orbiting Young Sidious, warded off every volley... Another decent skill and speed showing.

Not very impressive in contrast to the others.

And you haven't read anything on Caedus, and refuse to accept facts regarding other characters at times.

And before you ask me, yes, I did read Darth Plagueis, as well as virtually every appearance of all of these characters, in addition to multiple sourcebooks.

@shootingnova: I read the part Caedus get stomped via force by Luke.

@erkan12: And Luke's Force power tremendously exceeds Plagueis'. Plagueis will not replicate that. You mention that as if it were something to deride, and I expect you to bring up more instances of Caedus's lower-end showings against Jaina, the Mandalorians and Mara.

But I see that you are playing the lowball game and perhaps will persist in doing so, and since two can play, why don't I join? Remember that time when Plagueis got ambushed by the non-Force sensitive Maladian assassins and was severely injured? Remember the time when he got intoxicated by Sullustan wine and then killed by Palpatine?

And you managed to ignore everything else in the thread. Quit dragging down characters, buddy boy.

Run @shootingnova, run...

@spartankobe: I think I'm fine where I am.

@faymousinus: Heh. Thanks for the compliment. I see myself as more of a general Star Wars person in terms of knowledge. Nova, Dccomics, jdx, and ils are more of the experts when it comes to jedi/sith.

If anyone wants to know about SW tech then I'm the guy that should be called lol.

On topic then. I believe team 1 can take this in a close battle.