Yoda and Mace Windu (ROTS) vs The Emperor and Darth Vader (ROTJ)

Canon Fight

Fight takes place here:

The Sith win, either of the Jedi could defeat Vader but Palpatine is the MVP.

Jedi. Windu takes on Sidious again and at the very...VERY least stalls him until Yoda stomps the Orphan/Widower

No they can't Vader is way more powerful than Either of them in canon.

This isn't legends where it too ambiguous, about his power and it gets contradicted, in Canon he is solidly ROTJ Sidious near Equal.

in Canon it pretty much implied the Siths Vader and Sidious are the most powerful.

@mygod000: Vader isn't more powerful than Yoda in legends or canon and Mace could still arguably take a majority over him.

Legends is debatable, But in canon Says who?

you tell me where it states Vader isn't more powerful than Yoda in canon.

@mygod000:

"Legends is debatable" It's not at all.

"you tell me where it states Vader isn't more powerful than Yoda in canon." Are there statements holding Vader above Yoda?

I been showing you statements then you guys dismiss them because you want to cherry pick Canon and what you want to accept as canon. it doesn't work that way.

it's debate in Legends because ROTJ Vader Surpassed the power that Anakin had in ROTS Which was arguable on par or greater than ROTS Sidious who Yoda lost to.

in canon, Vader 5 years after ROTS Surpassed Anakin in power; and was stated to be the most powerful Sith.

Vader in canon is par with ROTJ Sidious, who is much more powerful than ROTS Sidious. Moreover, Sidious stated Vader is a suitable replacement for him in the dark side. in order for that to be he would at least need to be more powerful than ROTS Sidious, since the Sidious who made that statement is more powerful than ROTS Counter part.

Sith win.

Vader>Mace

Sidious>Yoda

@mygod000: "it's debate in Legends because ROTJ Vader Surpassed the power that Anakin had in ROTS Which was arguable on par or greater than ROTS Sidious who Yoda lost to." George Lucas has said that Vader isn't as strong as Anakin and Yoda would annihilate Suited Vader in legends.

"in canon, Vader 5 years after ROTS Surpassed Anakin in power; and was stated to be the most powerful Sith."

"From then on, [Vader] wasn't as strong as the Emperor."

-- George Lucas

As for the Jedi : Fallen Order statement you love to use, Its most likely either Hyperbole or referring to known Sith in the galaxy, as Palpatine wasn't known as a sith. No way Palpatine is weaker than Vader.

"Sidious stated Vader is a suitable replacement for him in the dark side". "From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." - George Lucas

this is Canon star wars. George Lucas Statements means nothing in canon.

Like I said the novels states ROTJ is Vader at his most powerful he's ever been in George lucas canon, like I said George Lucas statements on Vader means nothing in Disney era Star wars.

Let me Spell it out for you again, G..E..O..R..G..E L..U..C..A.S S..T..A..T..E..M..E..N..T..S M..E.A..N..S N..O..T..H..I..N..G I..N C..A..N..O..N

How many times do we need to tell you people this for you to understand George Lucas sold his power and rights to Star wars for 4.2 billion which is why he is crying about it now how upset he is about because he can't do anything or has any say so in star wars.

stated by people in Disney canon with power that a Fight Between Vader and Sidious can go either way.

ROTSSidious<<<<With Means Vader=<ROTJ Sidious

Dave Fillioni statements about Ahsoka against Vader:

Ahsoka is in Dooku tier as well as Maul, No way is ROTS Sidious is defeating two Dooku Tier fighters no matter how much you want to wank him, But Vader can.

@mygod000:

"G..E..O..R..G..E L..U..C..A.S S..T..A..T..E..M..E..N..T..S M..E.A..N..S N..O..T..H..I..N..G I..N C..A..N..O..N" They do mean something like it or not, he created the films with this in mind Anakin > Vader.

"stated by people in Disney canon with power that a Fight Between Vader and Sidious can go either way." All I see is Matt Martin saying that he personally thinks Sidious would defeat Vader.

"Ahsoka is in Dooku tier" Why because she barely held her own against Vader?

In new canon the dark lords of the sith should take the majority in a good battle each time they are the two most powerful force users in canon since the disney take over, Yoda and Luke come closest.

The Films doesn't state Anakin was more powerful than Vader. Like I said post the statements from the movie where it states this.

If we solely use the films even inquisitors by feats are more powerful than Yoda and Sidious.

Was able to lift and Entire Temple with the force, Yoda in the move struggled to life debris that Dooku sent at Anakin and Obi-wan.

So your argument is poor here. like I said Vader in canon is more powerful than Yoda, statements put him around equal to ROTJ Sidious, who Yoda is way weaker than.

Sidious stating that Vader was the Apprentice he wanted, and is easily super to Dooku.

Ahsoka not on Dooku tier? Try again buddy, she was able to hold off a Sidious 14 years after ROTS.

So, this Sidious is much much more powerful than the Sidious that Casually Choked Dooku.

@mygod000:

"If we solely use the films even inquisitors by feats are more powerful than Yoda and Sidious." We aren't solely using the films so I don't see how this is relevant? I said he created the films with Anakin being stronger than Vader in his mind I don't see how I'm making this film only.

"The Films doesn't state Anakin was more powerful than Vader. Like I said post the statements from the movie where it states this." Oh, now that makes sense for someone to tell Anakin randomly in the films that he's stronger than he will be as a mechanical Sith in 20+ years.

"So your argument is poor here. like I said Vader in canon is more powerful than Yoda, statements put him around equal to ROTJ Sidious, who Yoda is way weaker than." You've completely disregarded everything I said because it puts your favorite character below others. By your logic, ROTJ Luke is stronger than Yoda and all the other prequel top tiers.

"Yoda in the move struggled to life debris that Dooku sent at Anakin and Obi-wan." Vader struggled against ANH Obi-Wan and ESB Luke landed a blow on Vader.

"Ahsoka not on Dooku tier? Try again buddy, she was able to hold off a Sidious 14 years after ROTS." Ah, typical Dave Filoni making Ahsoka appear more powerful than she really is similar to her holding her own against Grievous and Ventress despite being 12 years old which I've seen is generally accepted as PIS.

"If we solely use the films even inquisitors by feats are more powerful than Yoda and Sidious." We aren't solely using the films so I don't see how this is relevant? I said he created the films with Anakin being stronger than Vader in his mind I don't see how I'm making this film only.

again, The films never said Vader was weaker than Anakin, we didn't know who was stronger until George Lucas statements which the novels contradicts because it states that ROTJ Vader is the strongest Vader and is his prime. even those this is irrelevant to this since we this holds no barrens on canon, but you clearly misunderstand GL, he even states After his injuries in ROTS Vader went from be more powerful than ROTS Sidious to 80% of him. Which mean he was still very much more powerful than Dooku who wasn't even that close to Sidious. It stated for 22 Years he gained power but whatever.

Like I said it irrelevant because Vader>>>Anakin.

"The Films doesn't state Anakin was more powerful than Vader. Like I said post the statements from the movie where it states this." Oh, now that makes sense for someone to tell Anakin randomly in the films that he's stronger than he will be as a mechanical Sith in 20+ years.

in Canon It didn't take Vader long to surpass Anakin at all, as a matter of fact Vader stated that the injuries strengthen his connection to the Dark side.

Right their his connection was much stronger in the force because of his injuries meaning Vader>Anakin.

"So your argument is poor here. like I said Vader in canon is more powerful than Yoda, statements put him around equal to ROTJ Sidious, who Yoda is way weaker than." You've completely disregarded everything I said because it puts your favorite character below others. By your logic, ROTJ Luke is stronger than Yoda and all the other prequel top tiers.

who was the one resorting to George Lucas and then started crying about his movies? You, are the one ignoring what being stated in canon and soely trying to use the film saying "oh, well GL had Vader being weaker than Anakin in his mind while Making the film" LMFAO, how do you even reply to such head canon? I don't care what you think he had in his mind, and in canon Vader is stated to be the strongest Sith 5 years after ROTS, you are the one who saying Vader will never be more powerful than Sidious when Even Snoke stated Vader is the most powerful sith. Are you going to say he doesn't know what he is talking about as well, because you don't like it?

Vader is my second favorite, Anakin is my favorite character in star wars.

"Yoda in the move struggled to life debris that Dooku sent at Anakin and Obi-wan." Vader struggled against ANH Obi-Wan and ESB Luke landed a blow on Vader.

According to your beloved GL Luke is as powerful as the plot demands him to be so i can say he more powerful than Obi-wan by ROTJ, Obi-wan one shotted Maul prior to ANH.

that was a Light saber duel anyway, Vader is a far better force wielder than he is a light saber duelist.

In canon, it stated Vader held back on Luke, and Obi-wan is more powerful then you are trying to downplay him to be and regardless Obi-wan was losing that battle and got killed.

"Ahsoka not on Dooku tier? Try again buddy, she was able to hold off a Sidious 14 years after ROTS." Ah, typical Dave Filoni making Ahsoka appear more powerful than she really is similar to her holding her own against Grievous and Ventress despite being 12 years old which I've seen is generally accepted as PIS.

Dave Filoni has full creative power over Rebels, and he said Rebels is Ahsoka's prime...and that she is the only one who is powerful to at least stand up to Vader and Sidious.

how you feel about it means nothing i only care about what the facts so be objective and stop using your own head canon; you have nothing that put Vader below Yoda, while i can drop many that puts Vader par with ROTJ Sidious while Yoda is weaker than ROTS Sidious.

Team Jedi. Both Mace and Yoda can beat Sidious 1v1, same goes for Ani.

Legends should go to the Jedi, Sith win in canon.

Team 1 wins. Assuming that this is ROTJ Sidious, he's the MVP, but not to the degree that he can stomp either Jedi. One holds him off while the other one-shots Vader, then Sidious is double teamed and loses.

@dalootajr: @mygod000:

George Lucas' statements still hold weight in current canon. As Matt Martin himself confirmed, Disney views Lucas' intent as a guiding principle:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/FH3sb68VcPCT8EGg9

Not to mention, according to the Storygroup as a whole, the films are the highest canon in current continuity:

"While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align."

-- LucasFilm Storygroup

Disney quite plainly declared that the films are *immovable* objects, to which all other material must align. It's just not the DVD that's canon, it's what the movie entails. The story, information of the movie. And as creator of those movies, Lucas provides clear-cut insight into what the movies entail. By logic, his word on the films that he created, would be final. Even in Disney canon.

A major plot point of the films is that Vader's injuries on Mustafar severely nerfed him for the time being. That's what Lucas was explaining when he made the "from then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" statement. So yes, it's top canon. Vader was never was strong as Sidious.

In current canon, Lucas has no authority on material that's not his. But he is a legitimate source on the movies and what they entail.

The injuries didn't nerf him Sidious did. Vader stated his connection to the force became much stronger which mean he got much more powerful after his injuries. Sidious tried to nerf Vader so that it be harder for him to overthrow him.

Canon vader is more powerful than Anakin.

ROTJ Sidious>=Vader=>GM prime Luke>>ROTS Sidious>Yoda.

@mygod000:

"The injuries didn't nerf him Sidious did| Sidious tried to nerf Vader so that it be harder for him to overthrow him."

No, Sidious wanted Vader to become more powerful. He was angered when Vader screwed up and lost everything. That's why he wanted to throw away Vader when Luke came along, because Vader would always be fodder and Luke had his old potential: 

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

-- George Lucas 

Clear as day. That's why he brags about it to Yoda. 

"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!" 

-- Emperor Papatine(Revenge of the Sith)  

So yeah. 

"Vader stated his connection to the force became much stronger which mean he got much more powerful after his injuries."

Contradiction. Lucas disagrees with that: 

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared..."

-- George Lucas 

"He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off [Vader's] arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become." 

-- George Lucas  

So do other canon sources:  

"Sidious knew that Vader's broken body would make him weaker than before, but tested his apprentice's connection to the dark side by telling him that he had caused Padme's death. The intensity of Vader's anguish and self-hatred made it clear that he still possessed great power." 

-- StarWars.com: Biography Gallery 

"Canon vader is more powerful than Anakin." 

I agree, but not at first. He lost a lot of power and potential after his injuries, so it takes many years to grow more powerful than before.

"ROTJ Sidious>=Vader=>GM prime Luke>>ROTS Sidious>Yoda." 

ROTJ Sidious >> ROTS Yoda > ROTS Sidious >>>>>>>>>> Vader. We don't know where Luke is yet.

again GL has no say so in canon. his movies maybe the highest of canon, but that is it. If we go based off the movies than even the Grand inquisitor is above ROTS Sidious.

Statements put VAder above ROTS Sidious he is stated to be the greatest threat to the Jedi .

Yoda and the Emperor were really close during ROTS, but Palpatine most likely got stronger by ROTJ, so I would probably side with him. When it comes to the force, Mace is a weak link here, and I think Vader could beat him, and prime canon Vader could arguably beat Yoda as well, so overall the sith should take this.

@mygod000:

"again GL has no say so in canon. his movies maybe the highest of canon, but that is it. If we go based off the movies than even the Grand inquisitor is above ROTS Sidious." 

As I said before: 

George Lucas' statements still hold weight in current canon. As Matt Martin himself confirmed, Disney views Lucas' intent as a guiding principle:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/FH3sb68VcPCT8EGg9

Not to mention, according to the Storygroup as a whole, the films are the highest canon in current continuity:

"While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align."

-- LucasFilm Storygroup

Disney quite plainly declared that the films are *immovable* objects, to which all other material must align. It's just not the DVD that's canon, it's what the movie entails. The story, information of the movie. And as creator of those movies, Lucas provides clear-cut insight into what the movies entail. By logic, his word on the films that he created, would be final. Even in Disney canon. Especially when talking about information pertaining to the film. 

A major plot point of the films is that Vader's injuries on Mustafar severely nerfed him for the time being. That's what Lucas was explaining when he made the "from then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" statement. So yes, it's top canon. Vader was never was strong as Sidious.

In current canon, Lucas has no authority on material that's not his. But he is a legitimate source on the movies and what they entail. 

"Statements put VAder above ROTS Sidious he is stated to be the greatest threat to the Jedi ." 

Again, random supremacy quotes that I addressed in the other thread. Plus, his movie feats show otherwise. Struggling against IG-102 and Obi-Wan show that he's much closer to the average Council member than Sidious.

Team 1 destroys Team 2 because Vader is a severe weak link.

@mygod000: Sorry for being rude and uncivil in our debate.

You don't need to apologize, we are just two passionate individuals debating here. at the end of the day, it's all is the spirit of good debate, and i have no hard feelings towards you on your picks. I just think we are all not looking fully at the facts.

I'll say it again, i agree that ROTJ Sidious is more powerful than Vader I won't dispute that, but I do think he is very close to That Sidious in powers. I think we both can agree that Yoda put up a good fight

@mygod000:

Agreed., the Jedi have a shot at winning if it was ROTS Palpatine and Vader but not ROTJ.

Okay. Another thing Even if it ROTJ Sidious, I don't See anyone just completely Ragdolling Yoda, Like Sidious at the end of his fight did to Maul.

I do want to note again, Vader at his best in the suit is a good deal more powerful than ROTS Sidious, upward to about 18-20%, and I see ROTJ Sidious about 21% stronger than his ROTS Sidious. just to be clear, I don't even think a DE Sidious could Ragdoll Yoda.

As for ROTS Sidious, I have about about 1% more powerful than Yoda in Canon. as for their Dueling skill i'll say they are all about equals.

In canon Vader is implied to be better than Sidious with a light saber but not by much, so this is how I see them in light saber skills Vader>=Yoda>Sidious>=Mace.

So, Yes the Jedi have a shot at beating them. I just want to post this an make this clear those:

in rebels Ahsoka is in the top 3-4 jedi of all time in fighting. this means she is comparable in skill with Jedi masters like Yoda, Mace, and Dooku. Vader was able to overwhelm her pretty easily with minor difficulty. as a matter of fact, if she is 3rd best that would put her above Dooku in terms of skill with a light saber who is stated to be comparable in skill to Yoda.

so, in terms of light saber skills this fight is pretty near even, it starts to become more clear when you add force powers into it and it becomes much more in favor of the sith Winning this.

@mygod000: plz stop wanking vader, vader is slightly inferior to yoda in his prime, maybe even equal. But I am 100% sure he is not equal to sidious, mace could be vader for a 4/10. So stop with the wanking

@darksith985: vader beat sidious by a feat and scaleing

Vader and Sidious.

Sidious solos

Going with the sith sith team in a very close fight. Yoda vs Sidious is a close match, I would probably only give sidious a 6/10 victory, even with his greater power in ROTJ, but I think that Vader could overcome windu more consistently than Yoda could Sidious.

Sith team 7-8/10.

Can go either way

Canon: Sith win everytime. Palps grew in power and Vader is more powerful in Canon than in Legends. A junior fact-file canon states that Vader would also beat Yoda.

Legends: It is alot closer, Palps also grew in power in Legends but Vader is weaker.

Legends Sidious could solo with high difficulty. Vader is out of his league here.

Canon team 1 win.

Mace is the weak link here. He has too many anti-feats for me to think he wins, he struggled with an inquisitor level duelist, Mother Talzin (who was said by Palpatine to be less skilled than Dooku) and there is more stuff that I don't remember. Him holding his own against the Emperor was an outlier.

I say team 2 wins. Vader is honestly too much for Windu, I'm not sure if Vader would win in sabers but his TK is way too much for Mace.

Vader is a weak link. Either Yoda or Mace cut him down, and then double team Sidious. While ROTJ Sidious is the strongest one here he cant take Mace and Yoda at the same time.

Vader and Sidious are too strong in canon. They win!!

In canon, RoTJ Sidious > Yoda and RoTJ Vader > Mace

Sith win 8/10, but the Jedi make them work for it every time

@superdragoon978: show me Mace resisting TK from someone as powerful as Vader.

@PedroLopesMateus

The ROTS script has Mace taking a force attack from Sidious and continuing to fight. Even discounting that Mace legitimently beat Sidious, while Vader struggled with the likes of Eeth Koth, ANH Ben Kenobi, Rebels Ahsoka, and Commander Karbin, none of whom are on Palpatine or Yoda's level.

@superdragoon978: Vader didn't struggle with ANH Ben. The novel From A Certain Point of View makes it clear that Ben had no chance of winning and was losing very badly.

Anyway, Mace may have beaten Sidious legitimately. However ROTJ Sidious is >>>> ROTS Sidious.

Yoda is the best duelist here, but Palpatine has surpassed him in force power by quite a bit. Meanwhile Vader and Windu are nearly equal in dueling ability (with Mace Windu possibly having the slight edge) but Vader is more powerful.

So at this point Vader defeats Windu more often than not and Palpatine likely defeats Yoda more often than not. If we change it up, Vader can stalemate Yoda while Mace has no chance of surviving Palpatine's force power.

The sith definitively win 10/10.