Yhwach (Bleach) vs Madara Uchiha (Naruto)

@kroczilla:

1) Agreed, just saw Genjutsu being called "not tp" n thought I'd try and clarify. Wasn't aware of the context or how it's relevant.

2) But how can Ichibei have dominion over anything if that dominion was taken from him? That's his power, right? And it was taken, right? But he still had it...right?

3) No, death is described to us as the normal consequence of being hit by the light. It is explained very clearly that it takes back his powers whether you are hit by the light or not. What power? The powers he bestowed to the Sternritter, when he gave them their letter...and yet the Sternritter still have the powers he bestowed after he took them back.

4) Gerard died when he was hit by the light, like he was supposed to because that's what we are told happens. There is nothing to say his power was not in effect, the guy's skeleton is still massive...in fact even if they plainly stated he lost his powers for real-for real, on panel, he would still be the outlier at this point considering every other quincy still had theirs. ...and Hasch was no different from any of the others, other than he lived a few seconds longer after being hit by the light. Otherwise, he's just using powers after Ywhach took them. Again. As has become the norm...

5. They say they specifically saw his defeat. Hash even says it, almost word for word, a few more times just to hammer it in. Ichigo was defeated while using his hollowgami powers. If they saw that, they saw that Ichigo has hollowgami powers (not that it should even suprise them) at that moment. Or "can" have hollowgami powers at that moment. Either way, that is his all seeing eye not seeing all, once again.

6. He had seen KS, knows all about KS (in fact Ywhach knows Aizen personally, despite having been in hiding for the 1000 years he did not have Almighty....so he even had Almighty when he met Aizen and first saw KS)...yet KS wasn't powerless against him, and he could not see its later use coming at any point prior despite his apparent ability to do just that. Either he failed to see it or he failed to stop it after having seen it, you can go either way it is still, on some level, a fail.

7. He had alot of time to just hang out and look at all the futures, yet he couldn't see Aizen's predictable use of KS with Ichigo when predicting a fight with Aizen and Ichigo. Almighty, yes, definately. Unless you're suggesting Aizen had planned ahead and planted "In like a day and a half see Ichigo and Renji attacking you and don't attack the spots I'm assuming the real ones, both of whom will definately be there, will stand," ahead of time...which is silly (and unevidented). He had to have done that later, during the actual fight...and if Aizen used KS at any point for anything after Almighty was activated, by Ywhach's own description he should have seen it coming. The obvious conclusion would be either his Almighty or his ability to use it have a concerning fail rate. Or both, given his statement that even dumb luck can trump Almighty (2nd Ichigo bankai break, that part was an illusion but his explaination was his own words). Regardless of all 3 options, the outcome is the same: Almighty has a concerning fail rate.

8. It's not really PIS when it keeps happening like this, this is the fourth and most blatent instance of this in a row that I've listed so far. Coincidentally, in reference to another thread, I rofld at this knowing the dimension snipe is Kaguya's opening move. Anyway, yea man...He just straight up got hit by something he knew all about. If you want to play the PIS card to discredit this feat, I mean...you should probably keep in mind that his entire power is PIS lol: He literally manipulates events i.e. the plot...and yet can't seem to stop dropping the ball, which is the stupidity part :p. What I'm saying is: PIS is not PIS when it is literally your character. Even worse, most PIS-powered characters, including Ywhach, come pre-packaged with their greatest weakness...CIS. Not to be confused with WIS, which is just Bleach altogether (ok, that was a low blow, ik. I'm sorry).

9. Kryptonite he didn't see coming, despite having the power to see things coming.

10. You're arguing that someone who could see and change all futures at will didn't have the opportunity to see and change his future at literally any point, even before confronting Aizen. Come on, man. Aizen can't see the future, he can't choose a future for Ywhach, he just makes really life-like blow-up dolls...I mean illusions. He can't use people's powers for them, and his only work NOW. If KS could effect Ywhach's choices involving his power, he never would have come back to life. The reasonable assessment here would be that Yhwach's powers, both to see and change all futures, are so vulnerable to misjudgment, random luck, their own unclear limitations, and actual character stupidity that not only can he make a judgement lapse (especially under illusions), but his powers might not even work properly even if he does everything right (Ichigo's blade's potential to resist breaking, new KS illusions cast post-activation, failure to predict or counter Ishida's driveby, ect).

IMO, Ywhach's strongest DEPENDABLE hax is that he can prep to steal (for real real) one specific type of power after like 1000 years. He can't use it, apparently, but the other guy doesn't have it either, so...there's that. Better than "Maybe I'll cut you in the future or maybe I wont, but probably...or not...or will I?"

@sophia89 said:

@king_chad said:

@sophia89 said:

@king_chad said:

@sophia89 said:

@miraclecomeback said:

Does madara have antithesis arrow? Cuz if not, yhwach stomps

Does Yhwach have any TP resistance? Nope, so he gets stomped!

Genjutsu is not TP, and anyone with huge amount of energy or that can distorts its own energy can free himself from Genjutsu.

I'm actually surprised no one has ever mentioned Susano'o.

In a way it is. You can read your opponents' mind, control them, put them in illusions, make them sleep, put thoughts in their head and make them think its their own, etc.

No. Someone with high amount of energy can break free. First, you need to know the technique, which Yhwach don't. Second, if the user has a strong enough TP they can keep you still under their control, see Naruto vs Itachi. Third, Madara controlled Kuramma who is basically made of energy.

No one mentioned Susanoo because its unneeded. Madara stomps with a simple stare.

You can not read your opponent's mind with Genjutsu, you can only barely control them via illusion. The rest are specific ocular techniques.

You do realize Almighty allows to see every possible future right? Naruto doesn't have control enough over his chakra at the time. At the contrary of Yhwach who can give himself even more power than the one he already had. And restore his lost power to Ichibei. Kurama is a huge mass of chakra taken form. True, but has little control over his powers. At the contrary of Yhwach, who has more reiatsu than basically anybody in Bleach, keep in mind this includes people like Kenpachi, Ichigo and Aizen. Who are beasts in this things.

I wouldn't be so sure, I made this thread in some websites and people haven't actually given any reason of how Madara could counter Yhwach's Almighty, while has been given reasons of how Yhwach can counter all of Madara's. Keep in mind Kyoka Suigetsu works in a totally different way of Genjutsu.

1. You can, had you read Naruto you would have known this.

Gallery

From Naruto 507.

So far we established you don't know shit about Naruto.

Every possible future unless you fall under an illusion. So pretty much useless.

Naruto at the time had way more TP resistance than every single bleach character combined. So Yhwach still can't break free. Rest of that part is BS, so ignoring it.

I'm not other sites. I already showed how Madara stomps, and no one showed how he doesn't.

that's not genjutsu. Psycho Mind Transmission Naruto doesn't even have a feat of his own resisting Genjutsu. Much less actual TP.

Aizen put Yhwank under his KS after Yhwank active the Almighty!

You see Yhwach covers in his Almighty eyes and shadows in the flashback panels. He put Yhwach in it before Ichigo and Renji came. Nowhere it was stated by Aizen that he put Yhwach in the illusion since the start of the arc. Even if Aizen did it from the start, Yhwach still failed to see that he is in a illusion.

@sophia89: No problem

@batmanprep:

@clorox92: All madara has to do is make eye contact and its a done deal bro

LOL where were these comments when people thought yhwach was multiversal???

very biased here

@homicidalmaniac said:

Aizen put Yhwank under his KS after Yhwank active the Almighty!

You see Yhwach covers in his Almighty eyes and shadows in the flashback panels. He put Yhwach in it before Ichigo and Renji came. Nowhere it was stated by Aizen that he put Yhwach in the illusion since the start of the arc. Even if Aizen did it from the start, Yhwach still failed to see that he is in a illusion.

wrong, he had him under KS since the begining

@king_chad: In the flashback panels in my scan, it showcase Aizen released KS after Yhwach activate the Almighty(he's covered in shadows and eyes). If Kubo wanted to show Aizen did it from the beginning of the arc, he would showed your scan in the flashback panels. Regardless, Yhwach can't see pass illusions with the Almighty.

Yhwach does not have chakra, so genjutsu won't work on him

you guys getting desperate....

No, it simply says of Aizen already having put Yhwach under Kyoka Suigetsu and making sure he could still use it on him. Nothing else. Yhwach can't see past Kyoka Suigetsu, which controls all senses, is not a simple illusion like Genjutsu. And is way different.

@king_chad: Genjutsu is greater that kyoka suigetsu......

Bleach "fans" never cease to amaze.

@king_chad: No, he said he released KS when Ichigo and Renji were about to come back to the Soul Society. Your interception simply doesn't match the the scan. KS uses the five senses to create illusions to fool them. Yhwach's Almighty don't have other feats of countering illusions or telepathy. Also, I'm not going to debate you about Genjutsu.

@theonlytruth said:

@gxrevolution said:

Yhwach does not have chakra, so genjutsu won't work on him

you guys getting desperate....

How so? Genjutsu works by manipulating the chakra in ones brain, no? It even says as much on the wiki. Yhwach does not have chakra, so it stands to reason that it won't work.

Never mind the fact that EMS Madara rarely used his genjutsu on anyone in combat. He used it once on raikage and didn't even KO him.

@gxrevolution: people like you make battles boring in all honesty

not even gonna argue with your obnoxious claims

Madara wins gg

When does Madara ever use genjutsu in a fight?

@kingogkings777: yeah it's not a go to move. I think he only used it twice. Once against shinobi alliance fodder and once against raikage.

Madara takes this hands down. Madara can simply just pin him down with his black rods and leave him disabled.

Madara dies. The only reason Aizen was even able to put Yhwach under his illusion was because he was ready for Yhwach. Madara is not going to know what to expect. Yhwach on the otherhand can see all possible futures; every move Madara can make, every technique Madara could use, etc. He 'll see how powerful he is and know "I need to take this motherHUFFER's eyes asap" and poof! Madara's eyes are gone. I've noticed the serious shaft work naruto fan do on this site and you guys need to chill. Madara doesn't just use genjutsu out the gate because that's not his character. If we're entertaining the idea that Madara will start of with genjutsu then why can't Yhwach just rewrite the future and make Madara dead on arrive? Madara loses, no question.

@lemonpeace: Welcome, newcomer. Among other things, I see you making a common error of imagining what you would do with someone's powers rather than what they would do. Unfortunately, you are clearly much more competent than Ywhach is. A couple things:

-Ywhach certainly thinks he can see all possible futures, and he can see many moves Madara can make. He cannot see the future of abilities he has not physically "seen" first. He knows nothing about Madara's abilities until until he "sees" them. He can't "see" being looked at, so it is a surefire win. That is why you see so many people mentioning it, but it's just one way it could go. It's easier to think of it as a #/10 type situation.

-If you want a good image of shaft work, just picture Team Bleach all huddled around the very bottom right corner of a scan of what amounts to an ink blot like a bunch of UFO Hunters, like "Hey, does that look like a planet to you? Like...maybe if we tilt it...look! That could be a planet, right? Planetbuster!"

-Ywhach can't rewrite the future to "make Madara dead on arrive". He has never even shown the capacity to even think of doing that. He has never done anything close. The most he has ever done was plant bombs and cut stuff, and he literally never even tried blitzing in character, in fact he specifically lets everyone he fights attack him first. That is why people are arguing Madara making the first move.

@sophia89: 1) nope. The yamanaka clan use what is known as mind switching techniques. No where is it mentioned to be a genjutsu.

And the shinobi using the technique was aoba yamashiro who even stated that he wasnt as good as inochi in its use, so obviously he was also using the mind switching technique. Guess who taught him?

No where is it shown that he is capable of genjutsu which is extremely rare.

2) reikaku alone is a sufficient defense against it. Now prove madara can counter the almighty.

3) well that is a feat for aizen as it shows that hr can even affect their ability to sense reitsu. Does genjutsu have similar feats? And yama knew that he could not trust any of his senses henced he allowed aizen to stab him. Also just read the entire of chapter 15 and still cant find what you are talking about.

4) Cee wasnt in active combat when he tried to sense karin. Neither was rubberman.

Well seeing as cee has to concentrate to use his sensory abilities, its easy to see how he would fall for a genjutsu.

5) prove genjutsu can affect reikaku. Madara needs to get close to ywach to use genjutsu. Prove he can accomplish that before the almighty rips him apart.

And aizen had ywach in ks before he got the almighty hence ywach was still affected.

except he's broken Ichigo's bankai in the future before it was ever activated because he admitted it was a big enough threat to do so.

@thelocust619: 1) again what ywach took was ichibei s power, he didnt affect ichibei s dominion over them.

2) nope. Death due to being hit by the light was shown to take months even in a weak quincy like katagiri. Andpower in that context could mean their lifeforce which makes sense as ywach was trying to resurrect his dead elites.

3) you do realize that it was also stated that ywach can only gather the abilities of the strenritters who are deceased once he sleeps and "becomes the father of the quincies". Hence bazz b and the others still retained their power though they lost the ability to use volstagg. Also gerard was never granteda schrift by ywach as exlained by askin when he pretty much confirmed gerard as the soul king s heart.

4) iirc, only haschwalt stated he saw the outcome of the fight. Ywach actually stated that he wanted to be suprised which shows that he did not use the almighty to forsee the outcome of the battle.

5) he only fell to ks because he was placed under it even bedfore he had the almighty. It is a fail, but not one madara is capable of replicating.

6) except ywach had gotten cocky and obviously did not use the almighty when he encountered aizen as he expressed surprise (st the fact that aizen would try and stop him) domething he never did while with the almighty. Basically ywach was already under ks even before the almighty was active.

7) the almighty only failed ywach twice (against ks which has been explained and against uryuu s arrow). As we can clearly see, there is only one clear cut occurence of failure on the part of the almighty making it PIS. Kubo was ckearly rushing to end the manga which makes the PIS even more apparent.

8) the clear cut PIS moment in question

9) except for the fact that ks was also able to perfectly replicate even things aizen had not seen such as ichigo and renji s bankais. It not far fetch that it could affect everything ywach could see which includes all possible futures.

@thelocust619: 1) ywach doesnt THINK he can seevthe future, he CAN see the future. Again baseless speculation on your part. Ywach was only affected by ks cause he had been under it before he got the almighty. Not to mention he clearly wasnt using it when he went to free sizen as he was suprised aizen would try and stop him.

2) isthis an insult to bleach fans? I dont get it pls explain the joke.

3) except for the fact thst ywach clearly used it to shatter a bankai and remove ichigo s horn. Badically he can remove madara s eyes and shatter him before ge even knows whats happening. Heck he even blew up ichibei without maknh a move. Guess how that happened.

Madara genjustu gg

@vermillion0831: 1) except genjutsu is sending your chakra to minupulate chakra inthe opponent s brain. Reikaku due to its nature would easily see any attampt atvusing s genjutsu just like sensory users who when not caught off guard can sense and counter the instamce genjutsu is being used.

2) nope, ichibei s power of black with which the earase name was what ywach saw and what ywach stole however, he did not affect ichibei s dominion over black itself.

3) happened only once actually except you add ks which has been explained.

4) except it is clearly rewriting the future else ywach coud nt have come back frm death or having his name and power removed from him.

5) literally only failed once which was the pis in question.

6) ywach was PARTICULARLY interested in ichigo snd breaking him. He has never played around with any of his previous opponents. Just asked ichibei and yama.

7) it showed thatvywach has more power than yamaas he is able to easily assimilate yama s bankai s well as the power of countless other. Ywach also has the quincy spell known as sankt altar which works even better than the medallion. He was trying to embarass yama who had earlier thought the medallion wouldnt work on him.

8) again we literally do not know what happened and he clearly did not use the almighty in his battle against yama else the royal guard would hace known about it. Bsically no one knows what happened in that fight so again why do you keep bringing it up.

you're putting yhwach on a level hes not even close at

Madara wins

@vermillion0831: 1) sensors unlike normal shinobis can sense when genjutsu is being used either on them or by someone else and thus know to break their chakra flow. Reikaku is basically a sensory ability that can be used in active combat unlike most ensors in the narutoverse (barring sage mode)

2) i have already explained enough. Not my business if you refuse to see reason.

3) ywach did not have the almighty active when he met with aizen and was already under ks prior to even obtaining it hence his ability to see the future was compromised. Its not anything madara can replicate.

4) what other "failures" did they have that were not properly explsined?

5) lets see the words used to describe the almighty. Transform the future, alter rhe future, re write the future etc. No where is it stated that ywach is selecting futures. And how does once select a future where an ability such as ichimonji no longer works on him after being turned to an ant? Lol. Your attempt at downplay is amusing.

6) nope. The medallion steals bankai after the users has released it. Sank altar straight up removes powers. Also none of the shinigamis showed anything remotely close to the lvl of dominion ichibei had over black to the point that he could even draw it frm the future.

7) its not sweeping it under the rug. It taking an unknown event for what it is, unknown.

Yhwach.Madara would NOT go for the genjutsu from the start,he never does unless its vital to his plan.Yhwach then stomps Madara.Its hilarious, the naruto fans assuming he would go for genjutsu right away just to prove their lousy argument.

Yeah don't see anyone jumping to "Genjutsu off the bat" arguments. But it does look like everyone is forgetting that you fall under the Sharingan Genjutsu just by looking at the Sharingan.

Looks like Bleach debating hasn't changed in the past year: still shit.

@king_chad: To be fair, you can read minds to an extent with genjutsu. Sasuke did it to learn Bee's location, and to learn Naruto's location froma zetsu. There's also a whole division of intelligence that use genjutsu to extract information from captured enemy agents as shown during the pain arc. Obito did the same agaisnt Konan to find the rinnegan, and explicitly stated so during. While it is probably different than your regular mind reading, it's essentially the same end result, just more focused.

@haha_cha_cha: genjutsu can be used to force your opponents to divulge secrets, which is what sasuke did. It cannot read mind.

The mind reading technique is a jutsu of the yamanaka clan (basically ino's family) . It isnt a genjutsu.

Madara

How exactly is Madara going to kill Ywach? Remember the whole "I can even alter futures in which I have died" thing? The only way to kill him is to nullify his powers.

@sophia89 said:

@clorox92 said:

@sophia89 said:

@clorox92 said:

@sophia89 said:

@miraclecomeback said:

@sophia89: Does madara have any feat of shaking 3 realms? Or any sort of matter manipulation?

3 realms? You mean the three realms that we never seen how big? The three realms where one, Soul Society, was as big as a very tiny country?

Until you provide any TP resistance or proof that Yhwach has a much greater speed and would blitz, he gets godstomped.

Human world is exactly the size of our earth. And to put all realms in balance, all three dimensions (Hueco Mundo, Soul Society and Human World) need to be equal.

We never saw anything of the human world outside of Kurakura town. Which is the same size as SS and hueco mundo.

We never saw him shake the entire Earth, at best we have to take his word for it.

Again, provide TP feats or Yhwach gets stomped end of story.

Human World and Soul Society has day and night which mean they have their own sun and moon. Even Hueco Mundo has its moon too. If all those dimensions aren't planet then I don't know what they are.

Does this mean Aizen is a sun creator/ planet shaper?

Look at that beautiful sunny day Aizen created.

Urahara can create Stars too it seems.

Oh fug, it seems bleach characters are easily star creators which obviously means they are star busters. Still Yhwach gets his butt kicked though until you post TP resistance.

Lol. You took those photos of Urahara's training room and scene in Los Noches which obviously stated that it was artificial sky. What about the real Hueco Mundo, the moment Ulquiorra break the dome which you can see the moon there. What about Human World? Karakura Town? And you ignored my post of Bleach episode125 which shows the map of Japan. You're welcome to check it here (watch it at 14.50-14.55). Hahahaha.

Yhwach pulls out his eyes in the future before he can even use it. /endthread

Yhwach believes he pulled madara's eyes out but it was and illusion and gets wrecked. /endthread

Aizen used KS on Yhwach before he awakened The Almighty during their first meeting in Muken.

Madara has no chance to use genjutsu at first. He has nothing to counter The Almighty.

When does madara start with genjutsu right of the bat.

Either way chibaku tensei GG.

@homicidalmaniac: No. Aizen had Ritual for KS done on Yhwach long ago. Click the next page, Notice how Aizen said he activated it before Yhwach was even there? the only way to fall under hypnosis to begin with is to see the shikais release, which means Aizen had to of used it on yhwach before then. once they seen it they are forever afflicted with KS and since it was done before his power was on, he couldnt see through it.

Also Aizen set up the fight carefully so Yhwach did not notice things were off.

Yup if he's post-awakened no ability like Genjutsu is going to work. No travel time for Genjutsu? Ywach will see it in the future before he has a chance to use it and cut his eyes.

@vermillion0831: >Lol, why? The reikaku users who couldn't counter Aizen's illusions? Genjutsu isn't limited to illusions in the first place like I said earlier. Even IF bleach characters could fight despite being under illusions, which they've all proven they cannot, that's no defense to being put to sleep, bound, or mind controlled, which can be done with basic sharingan genjutsu.

Reikaku wont work if the illusion manipulates Reiaitsu and Reiryoku which is a function of kyoka suigetsu. Genjustu cant do that.

- shown by the fact Aizen fooled toshiro's spiritual sense with his illusion of momo

- and the fact its stated soul reapers,quincy's and probably hollows rely on this more then their 5 senses subconsciously.