YHVH from Shin Megami Tensei
Hermaeus Mora from The Elder Scrolls lore
Both of them are bloodlusted
Both of them have basic knowledge of each other
Round 1 - in Nuetral location with no dragon towers
Round 2 - in Apocrypha
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hermaeus mora stomps due to being higher dimensional (yhvh is 7-9d whereas mora is infinite d)
No. He's an avatar of the Great Will, which is 10d (on vsbattles), and stephen was said to have surpassed him as well.
Yhvh stomps zero difficulty if infinite dimensional is all hermaeus mora has.
Yhvh stomps zero difficulty if infinite dimensional is all hermaeus mora has.
oh , did I forgrt mentioning all the Dimensions have transcendence of R>F/Metaplanar layers ?
@aryan87: yes, you did forget to mention that, if you can, can you explain to me how R>F/metaplaner layers work along with a scan or video stating/explaining that that is indeed how it works in elder scrolls so i can properly compare it to mr. golden head here, that would be great.
@aryan87: yes, you did forget to mention that, if you can, can you explain to me how R>F/metaplaner layers work along with a scan or video stating/explaining that that is indeed how it works in elder scrolls so i can properly compare it to mr. golden head here, that would be great.
its rather simple really
take this for example , Arkved from Elder scrolls IV Oblivion , using a Higher Dimensional Artifact , was capable of viewing an entire Dimension as a Dream and the Said Dimension is described to have " limitless space "
if you view something as a dream or as a thought , you are seeing them as fiction , as the world R>F comes into the play , it literally means " Reality > Fiction " , so What I meant by it was Higher Dimensional Beings in Elder Scrolls are capable of seeing Lower Dimensional Beings and worlds as their dreams and have complete control over them or as the projection of their thoughts , and as we possess completely over our thoughts , they possess that over the being from the Lower Dimension .
There is no world so great as the world of the mind.
There is no voyager so well-traveled as the traveler in the land of dreams.
There is no abyss so deep as the well of terror that lies within each of us.
I have plumbed its depths.
I have seen the unthinkable. I am unafraid.
Even death's boundaries do not confine me.
I am the lord of limitless space, and the master of place and time.
Through the doors of sleep, the universe lies waiting for me.
I will no longer wait for my dreams to carry me worlds away, to unknowable deeps, to unspeakable vastness.
I shall dwell in the House of Vaermina forever, the Orb my companion.
There is no compass to my destination, no end to my journey.
My mind is the eternal voyager, fearless and wild with wonder in the Halls of Horror.
- Arkved's note
now Arkved's nature as someone using an oblivionic artifact leading to him vieweing an infinite Dimension as nothing more then his thoughts , we view another Oblivionic Being in Fa Nuit Hen who have a similar relation with reality and Dimensions :
Lord Fa-Nuit-Hen says, “To answer your questions, Spellwright, I shall go from the specific to the general! In common with the greater Princes, my realm of Maelstrom and myself are indistinguishable—my pocket reality is a projection of my mind, nature, and will. Indeed, reality as personal manifestation is the norm in all the highly-organized realms I have visited. Exceptional realms deviate from this norm in several ways.
- Fa-Nuit-Hen
so as Explained , a Higher Dimensional being views the lower as fiction in this context as the Dimensionality in TES go to Infinity ( note - Limitless and infinity are interchangeable )
I speak of the planes of Oblivion. The sea of limitless dimensions contains an endless series of islands
- Rulantril's note
thus a Three Dimensional Being and his plane , being viewed from the perspective of a Fourth Dimensional one , would be a projection of one's thoughts and basically , fiction and the Fourth Dimensional in this context commands supreme power power over the Third Dimensional one , The Fifth would have the same relation to the Fourth , The Sixth to the Fifth and so on we go on for an Infinity .
I hope you understood my explaination .
Big tentacles boi should win.
@aryan87: Oh, so its just like normal dimensions, gotcha. But that is still not really that impressive since the universe in megami tensei is made out of data which is made out of a combination of ALL concepts, meaning just their universe is beyond the concept of dimensions, making it outerversal in nature. And then there's the archetypal plane of the atziluth that is high outer in nature. And then theres the branes in yhvhs universe which transcends this high outer realm by multiple layers of existence, then there's empyreal throne which is a non-euclidean space which is beyond dimensions entirely making it and yhvh on the throne baseline boundless. So yhvh seems to be way beyond this hermaeus mora's paygrade from what you said.
: Oh, so its just like normal dimensions, gotcha.
well there is not really anything as " normal dimensions " as there are no default set of transcendence in fiction , Increasing the Number of Spatial Dimension is an unquantifiable transcendence only while in the case of Elder Scrolls there is an infinite Hierarchy of absolute control .
But that is still not really that impressive
I am afraid that I must say it is , I have not even touched the R>F parts of the layer System in Elder Scrolls and yet we are already at an absolute control based infinite Hierarchy , I was never presented with such transcendence in
since the universe in megami tensei is made out of data which is made out of a combination of ALL concepts, meaning just their universe is beyond the concept of dimensions,
even basic Dimensions such as Normal Oblivionic Dimensions ( not the transcendant ones ) are described as " Platonic Ideals " and are structured to have No Causality , neither the regular one and nor the Irregular one
As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion
- Fa Nuit Hen
The Masters are disembodied entities living in a distant Platonic Ideal; The Masters are disembodied entities living in a distant Platonic Ideal; their only connections with the Soul Cairn are small magic gems which provide a channel of communication and sensation with those bound in form to the Soul Cairn
- Battlespire Athenaeum said
nothing really applies to the planes of oblivion until the Creator of that realm wants it to apply
I know very little about them. They're mystic entities that lord over the Soul Cairn, controlling every aspect from its fabric to its appearence. Well, some necromancers believe they are the crystalline structures dotting the Soul Cairn. I believe there's more to it than that . I think they transcend what we percieve as a physical form. Perhaps they were once corporeal beings, but they've obviously reached a point where they no longer require a tangible presence
- Valeria
in its base state , Oblivion is...... nothing really , no concepts , no nothing but rather just a Void , its the creatures constructing Dimension on that Void while manipulating that Chaotic Creatia is when stuff like " concepts " is added
making it outerversal in nature. And then there's the archetypal plane of the atziluth that is high outer in nature. And then theres the branes in yhvhs universe which transcends this high outer realm by multiple layers of existence, then there's empyreal throne which is a non-euclidean space which is beyond dimensions entirely making it and yhvh on the throne baseline boundless.
I can see that he transcends layers but what type of transcendence , Old Hermaeus Mora here also transcend a lot of layers via Clockwork city , which is as big as Aurbis , the base wheel oblivion is in have an jnfinite number of layers after it , all layers again providing one with absolute Transcendence , like R>F and then we have the infinite level of the wheels , not really structurd dimemsions .
I have no seen R>F layers or such similarly potent transcdence on an infinite hierarchal scale for SMT so far
@aryan87: That's how dimensions work bro, layers of existence, higher dimensions, fictional transcendence, its literally all the same. 5-D is infinitely greater than 4-D, 6-D is infinitely greater than 5-D and so on. All of fiction is 2-D in relation to us 3-D beings meaning we are one R>F layer above all fiction, we are in a higher dimension than all of fiction, etc. And if the basic layers are platonic ideals (can i get a quote for that too btw) that just makes this infinite layers into outerversal. While the atziluth transcends the concept of outerversal dimensions, making it high outer and the empyreal throne transcends the concept of high outer dimensions. So these are archetypal transcendences, literally the transcendental gap in between the universe and atziluth and the atziluth and the throne, goes beyond dimensional transcendences as a whole to the point where you'll never reach the atziluth from the universe even if you transcend an infinite amount of dimensions per second for an infinite amount of time. Literally beyond the concept of dimensions on those respective levels.
That's how dimensions work bro,
I am afraid that's not the case
The 11th dimension is a characteristic of space-time that has been proposed as a possible answer to questions that arise in superstring theory. The theory of superstrings involves the existence of nine dimensions of space and one dimension of time (a total of 10 dimensions).
- SuperString Theory
the normal Dimension system is rather Basic , for example , A Two Dimensional object contains Two Spatial Dimensions containing just Length and Breadth , then adding another makes it Three and the inclusion is Of Height , we have no way of precieving the Fourth Dimensional Object because it would practically be Height + Breath + Length + an X Dimension feom a spatial position .
there is really nothing making it a low or constant that we view Things with Less Spatial Dimension as fiction .
layers of existence, higher dimensions, fictional transcendence,
all three of them have a striking difference
Layers of existence are , in simple terms ,levels , but from its fundamental and simple defenition a " Layer " of existence is in no sense transcendent until furthur context is provided
Higher Dimension is a physics theory with many different explaination and they certainly do not indicate a Reality > Fiction difference
fictional transcendence is what a Higher Dimension or a Higher layers requires to actually be potent in any battle .
its literally all the same. 5-D is infinitely greater than 4-D, 6-D is infinitely greater than 5-D and so on.
I am afraid thats not the case here at all , many scientific theories differ in their basis
Elder Scrolls Go up to Infinite Dimensional existence while the most I have seen Dimensional theories reach is Twenty Six Overall Dimensions ( Twenty Five Spatial and one Temporal ones )
All of fiction is 2-D in relation to us 3-D beings meaning we are one R>F layer above all fiction, we are in a higher dimension than all of fiction, etc.
the difference between us and fiction is not of Dimension as we exist in the same Universe but rather of just how we view it and how it can be meassures , for example a book can possess a height , Length and Breadth but its still a simple piece of fiction to us even when possessing the three needed spatial Dimensions.
And if the basic layers are platonic ideals (can i get a quote for that too btw)
its easy to explain , the Ideal Masters exist in a place called the Soul cairn , I already provided the quote for this but to rehash :
I know very little about them. They're mystic entities that lord over the Soul Cairn, controlling every aspect from its fabric to its appearence. Well, some necromancers believe they are the crystalline structures dotting the Soul Cairn. I believe there's more to it than that . I think they transcend what we percieve as a physical form. Perhaps they were once corporeal beings, but they've obviously reached a point where they no longer require a tangible presence
- Valerica
the same Dimension they hold " absolute " control over , is reffered to as a platonic ideal , in a scan I already demonstrated .
The Masters are disembodied entities living in a distant Platonic Ideal; The Masters are disembodied entities living in a distant Platonic Ideal; their only connections with the Soul Cairn are small magic gems which provide a channel of communication and sensation with those bound in form to the Soul Cairn
- Battlespire Athenaeum said
that just makes this infinite layers into outerversal.
platonicity is not really the Vs battles wiki qualification for Outerversal anymore , let alone infinite layers into it , it just gives potent Existence as far As I am aware .
While the atziluth transcends the concept of outerversal dimensions,
quotation or scan for that and what is a " concept of Outerversal dimension " ? an outerversal dimension would be something beyond Dimensions and having the Size of ℵ1 , do you have the exact qualifications requiring for it ? ( any quotation with existence of all possibilties/possible outcomes e.t.c. would do ) , you haven't really given me context for the claims you have made so far
Low 1-A | Low Outerverse level: Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures and expanses of uncountably infinite dimensions, or which have a size roughly analogous to them, such as uncountably infinite sets of hierarchical layers or planes of existence, most specifically ones whose amount of layers is comparable to the set of all real numbers, and are thus equated to the first uncountably infinite cardinal, ℵ1, for simplicity's sake.
Alternatively, this tier can also be assigned to characters who transcend High 1-B structures when no further context regarding the nature of such transcendence is given.
making it high outer and the empyreal throne transcends the concept of high outer dimensions. So these are archetypal transcendences, literally the transcendental gap in between the universe and atziluth and the atziluth and the throne, goes beyond dimensional transcendences
Dimensional transcendencies is pointless as a whole because a Dimension , in the literal sense as our universe , is just a mixture of at most twenty Five Spatial Dimension + One Temporal , if this logic isn't followed then Shin Megami Tensei is dependant on a custom system of Dimensions and Transcendence , which you would have to explain throughly Like I did with The Elder Scrolls One .
as a whole to the point where you'll never reach the atziluth from the universe even if you transcend an infinite amount of dimensions per second for an infinite amount of time. Literally beyond the concept of dimensions on those respective levels.
being Beyond the concept of Dimensions isn't really potent as , on pratical terms , you are beyond Spatiality and temporality , which is just space-time transcendence , which isn't super potent .
Quoting superstring theory doesn't help as not every verse can fall back on it when dealing with extra dimensions. Set theory (which is what youre supposed to go off of for unspecified dimensional tiering) doesnt have this problem as there are an infinite amount if dimensions.
"there is really nothing making it a low or constant that we view Things with Less Spatial Dimension as fiction."
Except for the fact that that is literally how we see less spatial dimensions, drawings, cartoons, video games, books, anime, etc its all 2-D to our perspective.
"Layers of existence are , in simple terms ,levels , but from its fundamental and simple defenition a " Layer " of existence is in no sense transcendent until furthur context is provided
Higher Dimension is a physics theory with many different explaination and they certainly do not indicate a Reality > Fiction difference
fictional transcendence is what a Higher Dimension or a Higher layers requires to actually be potent in any battle ."
Layers of existence refers to dimensions, as in higher dimensions since if youre on a higher dimension youre on a higher layer of existence. Higher dimensions do indicate a R>F difference from what i said above. 3-D beings see a 2-D space as fiction so thats what they are. And higher layers of existence and higher dimensions already passively have fictional transcendence. From my example above.
"I am afraid thats not the case here at all , many scientific theories differ in their basis
Elder Scrolls Go up to Infinite Dimensional existence while the most I have seen Dimensional theories reach is Twenty Six Overall Dimensions ( Twenty Five Spatial and one Temporal ones )"
Higher Dimensions go by set theory in which it goes up to infinity and beyond.
"the difference between us and fiction is not of Dimension as we exist in the same Universe but rather of just how we view it and how it can be meassures , for example a book can possess a height , Length and Breadth but its still a simple piece of fiction to us even when possessing the three needed spatial Dimensions."
Im talking about the cosmology/stories in the media not the physical copy of the media, i already know that that is 3-D. Also yes the difference between us and fiction is literally dimension. Its all 2-D bro, just because we exist in the same universe as these stories, does not mean that they are on the same dimensional plane than we are on that is simply not true not true, you literally just said that all fiction is real.
"platonicity is not really the Vs battles wiki qualification for Outerversal anymore , let alone infinite layers into it , it just gives potent Existence as far As I am aware ."
When i said that infinite layers into outerversal i was talking about how the basic dimensions are platonic in nature and how there are an infinite amount of dimensions spiraling up from it. Makes it infinite layers into outer, unless i got the cosmology wrong. Also what the fuck??? They nerfed platonic concepts?? They better have a damn good reason for that shit.
Also sorry i say outerversal dimensions because the qualifications for high outer is To transcend an infinitely layered outerversal structure in the exact same way you're supposed to transcend a high hyperversal structure to get into outerversal. And since the atziluth holds the raw and formless archetypal forms of demons whoch are already layers into outerversal then the atziluth is high outer.
You are going really heavy on this string theory thing when most verses dont even operate on that for dimensional tiering. I said this before but set theory is the basis therefore when a verse goes beyond 26 dimensions people go "oh shit outerversal???" When the dimensional hierarchy isnt specified in fiction you should always go with set theory unless specified otherwise. Im sure you know set theory if youre quoting vswiki.
"being Beyond the concept of Dimensions isn't really potent as , on pratical terms , you are beyond Spatiality and temporality , which is just space-time transcendence , which isn't super potent ."
It is when the thing thatbis transcending is the beings power as well as their being which is whats going on.
Also finally i normally slide full scans over discord so if you have that we can continue, but if you wanna do the thing here then youd have to wait a bit since my scans are on my computer. I can also bette explain smt and anything you have questions about over there as well.
Quoting superstring theory doesn't help as not every verse can fall back on it when dealing with extra dimensions.
Well It can't , but you are using no theories here so we go with the basics of String , super String and M as you have failed to elaborate on whatever Dimensional transcendence Shin Megami Tensei uses , if it uses one .
Set theory (which is what youre supposed to go off of for unspecified dimensional tiering) doesnt have this problem as there are an infinite amount if dimensions.
under what basis are we supposed to go with the Set theory ? and the Set theory and I am knowledgeable about is based around infinities and higher infinities and the cardinal system rather then Dimemsions , rather into mathematical logic then physics .
Set theory is the branch of mathematical logic that studies sets, which can be informally described as collections of objects. Although objects of any kind can be collected into a set, set theory, as a branch of mathematics, is mostly concerned with those that are relevant to mathematics as a whole.
A Venn diagram illustrating the intersection of two sets
The modern study of set theory was initiated by the German mathematicians Richard Dedekind and Georg Cantor in the 1870s. In particular, Georg Cantor is commonly considered the founder of set theory. The non-formalized systems investigated during this early stage go under the name of naive set theory. After the discovery of paradoxes within naive set theory (such as Russell's paradox, Cantor's paradox and Burali-Forti paradox) various axiomatic systems were proposed in the early twentieth century, of which Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory (with or without the axiom of choice) is still the best-known and most studied.
Set theory is commonly employed as a foundational system for the whole of mathematics, particularly in the form of Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory with the axiom of choice.[1] Besides its foundational role, set theory also provides the framework to develop a mathematical theory of infinity, and has various applications in computer science (such as in the theory of relational algebra), philosophy and formal semantics. Its foundational appeal, together with its paradoxes, its implications for the concept of infinity and its multiple applications, have made set theory an area of major interest for logicians and philosophers of mathematics. Contemporary research into set theory covers a vast array of topics, ranging from the structure of the real number line to the study of the consistency of large cardinals.
Except for the fact that that is literally how we see less spatial dimensions, drawings, cartoons, video games, books, anime, etc its all 2-D to our perspective
until you show me characters in SMT vieweing lower Dimensions as " video games " , data , computer and books , I am not really gonna believe you sadly , as your argument is baseless , I have already proven that the concept of Dimensionality holds zero value in oblivion where the infinite R>F Hierarchy exists , due to the platonic nature of its even basic realms , let alone the top tier ones and if platonicity is not enough
The Masters are disembodied entities living in a distant Platonic Ideal; The Masters are disembodied entities living in a distant Platonic Ideal; their only connections with the Soul Cairn are small magic gems which provide a channel of communication and sensation with those bound in form to the Soul Cairn
- Battlespire Athenaeum said
As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion
- Fa Nuit Hen
if platonicity isn't enough , time/space/causality doesn't exist in general in oblivion .
Layers of existence refers to dimensions, as in higher dimensions since if youre on a higher dimension youre on a higher layer of existence. Higher dimensions do indicate a R>F difference from what i said above. 3-D beings see a 2-D space as fiction so thats what they are. And higher layers of existence and higher dimensions already passively have fictional transcendence. From my example above
The concept of Dimensionality is at the first place , based around Temporality and spatiality , two things that lose meaning on the second layer alone
As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion
- Fa Nuit Hen
heck spatiality isn't a thing either in the basic state of Oblivion
I was lurking behind a Dark Anchor chain link, preparing to terrify an approaching Soul Shriven by suddenly knocking her down and sneering, "No match at all," when I suddenly felt a strange tingling all over, from my horns down to my toes. I grew dizzy as the plane spun around me, nearly fell into a pool of blue plasm, and then suddenly felt myself hurled into an endless black void.
I wasn't alarmed at first, because who hasn't been hurled into an endless black void? It wasn't until I began to materialize at my destination and got a taste of the air that I had my first misgivings. "I smell … weakness," I said to myself—and I couldn't have been more right.
- The Time I was summoned by a Mortal
so basically , the concept of Dimensionality here is meaningless , because neither apply at Two and neither holds relevance either , so your point here is moot .
Im talking about the cosmology/stories in the media not the physical copy of the media, i already know that that is 3-D. Also yes the difference between us and fiction is literally dimension. Its all 2-D bro, just because we exist in the same universe as these stories, does not mean that they are on the same dimensional plane than we are on that is simply not true not true, you literally just said that all fiction is real.
I mean , Dimensionality becomes a meaningless facet in such cases because no theory you can apply would be equivalent to the Dimensions that are mentioned in elder scrolls
When i said that infinite layers into outerversal i was talking about how the basic dimensions are platonic in nature and how there are an infinite amount of dimensions spiraling up from it. Makes it infinite layers into outer, unless i got the cosmology wrong.
? how does the transcendence increase the venturing into R>F when the entire term of outerversal is based around effect Constructs of size ranging from ℵ1 to ℵⁿ
1-A: Outerverse level
Characters who functionally transcend the rest of the Tiering System, and stand outside of any extensions of infinite hierarchies and sizes, to varying degrees and magnitudes. In more straightforward terms, this category could be said to be occupied by characters whose size and/or level of power cannot be reached by merely stacking bigger infinities on top of each other.
Low 1-A | Low Outerverse level: Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures and expanses of uncountably infinite dimensions, or which have a size roughly analogous to them, such as uncountably infinite sets of hierarchical layers or planes of existence, most specifically ones whose amount of layers is comparable to the set of all real numbers, and are thus equated to the first uncountably infinite cardinal, ℵ1, for simplicity's sake.
Alternatively, this tier can also be assigned to characters who transcend High 1-B structures when no further context regarding the nature of such transcendence is given.
Also what the fuck??? They nerfed platonic concepts?? They better have a damn good reason for that shit.
yes they did
Also sorry i say outerversal dimensions because the qualifications for high outer is To transcend an infinitely layered outerversal structure in the exact same way you're supposed to transcend a high hyperversal structure to get into outerversal. And since the atziluth holds the raw and formless archetypal forms of demons whoch are already layers into outerversal then the atziluth is high outer.
oh that simple ? infinitely layered Hierarchy of R>Fs exist in oblivion alone , which is implied to be fiction in comparasion to Aetherius , as Aetherius is reffered to as the " Real world " while Oblivion , not being real , would be fiction by extension .
"Pretty soon the spirits on the skin-ball started to die, because they were very far from the real world of Satakal. And they found that it was too far to jump into the Far Shores now. The spirits that were left pleaded with Tall Papa to take them back. But grim Ruptga would not, and he told the spirits that they must learn new ways to follow the stars to the Far Shores now. If they could not, then they must live on through their children, which was not the same as before. Sep, however, needed more punishment, and so Tall Papa squashed the Snake with a big stick. The hunger fell out of Sep's dead mouth and was the only thing left of the Second Serpent. While the rest of the new world was allowed to strive back to godhood, Sep could only slink around in a dead skin, or swim about in the sky, a hungry void that jealously tried to eat the stars."
- On Satakal
You are going really heavy on this string theory thing when most verses dont even operate on that for dimensional tiering.
The Dimensional theory for TES is really weird , they use one but it seems inverse and custom built and is R>F transcendence based , thats the only thing we know .
I said this before but set theory is the basis therefore when a verse goes beyond 26 dimensions people go "oh shit outerversal???" When the dimensional hierarchy isnt specified in fiction you should always go with set theory unless specified otherwise. Im sure you know set theory if youre quoting vswiki.
wait..... you're asking me to prove Uncountably infinite number of Spatial or temporal dimensions for a single construct?
@aryan87: ok, bro, our posts are getting really long and i'd like to respond faster to you so can we do this debate/conversation 1 argument at a time instead at all at once, because we need to be clear on how higher dimensions work, because you think R>F, higher layers of existence and higher dimensions arent the same thing, when they are and we need to get that out of the way before i explain why set theory is to be used for verses with unspecified dimensional tiering and then i can get into the cosmology up to yhvh in detail(with scans). don;t take this the wrong way i'm not being rude and if i came off as rude i apologize, but i am genuinely interested in scaling elder scrolls, and seeing if they have anything to beat Megami tensei verse to verse.
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