Yangchen vs Korra

Avatar Yangchen

Avatar Korra

• Win by any means, no AS
• Basic knowledge
• In character
• Start 20 meters apart
• Fight in the Crystal Catacombs

@futureisbest@cryolancer47@minhcake@mrblackdragon@korraalone@anthp2000@mrgetmebodied:@nathanthecynic:@viking1205:@thebluedragon20:@thebooyzz:@chloros:@bigdreamer48:@scarlet_wiccan:@edgelord91:@vengefulshot:@byondeon:@eslay03:@aystarr

Yongchen.

Yangchen.

Yongchen but close

Yangchen.... How do you pronounce it again?

@eslay03: reasoning? i’m a little behind on my Yangchen knowledge lol

All in all, Yongchen seems to be one of the most prodigious avatars ever. Very shortly after completing her training, she was able to go toe to toe with the great spirit, General Old Iron, for an entire night. I feel like we may have become desensitized to how top tier this feat is. Her and Old Iron’s battle brought the city to ruins, and it lasted for several hours. Her age during this battle is not known, but we know that it occurred prior to her most recent novel in which she is only 17. She also describes herself as “young and inexperienced“ during this time period in “The Rift.” I suppose my point is that a rookie Yongchen was able to preform one of the franchises best non-enhanced feats, and that shouldn’t be ignored.

Furthermore, in her novel, she gained some notable airbending feats including one where she removed all the air out of a room and knocked her opponents unconscious. I simply do not see even Korra’s best element (water) being on par with Yongchen’s airbending. And, while we don’t have much evidence for it, I don’t believe any of her other elements are worse than Korra‘s. She certainly is most comfortable with airbending, but she also certainly isn’t uncomfortable with her other elements.

She truly is, in my opinion, the greatest airbender we‘ve seen in the franchise. Anything Aang has done, I’d expect her to able to do as well; at this point, there’s no reason to believe otherwise. The only thing any other airbender has on her is Zaheer with flight — although, if her novel gets a sequel, I’d genuinely expect that to change…

I hope that add some context to my pick.

Yangchen in a decent fight, with her taking the majority. And by Majority I mean 9/10.

Korra may take one W if she got lucky.

Yang Chen only has one statement of sinking an island and stalemating General old iron.

I don't see how that's enough to beat Korra

@eslay03: that definitely helped and now i have to agree with your point that Yangchen wins.

is there anything that might give Korra the advantage as far as speed goes?

I believe the Island sinking you're referring to is Kuruk's feat; he sunk an island Yangchen often frequented when he first let loose with the Avatar State.

Going with Yangchen; her destructive stalemate with Old Iron, let alone for as long as she did (at such an early stage of her journeys no less), puts her above Korra imo, and just most Avatars in general. (only Kuruk and Roku being in any major contention)

@eslay03: Slightly off topic, but it will be awhile before I personally can get around to read the new novel, so I was wondering if you could answer some questions.

A. Is this Kavik guy as boring and overly focused upon as some reviews on Goodreads makes it out to be? Many seem to complain that Yang Chen is shafted in favor of this new guy.

B. Is Yang Chen sapphic or something? One review mentioned that it was kind of ridiculous how all the avatar women are bi or lesbian.

No problem.

A) I wouldn’t say he’s overly focused, as in, he’s focused on too much, but he is a major character in the book. It’s certainly still Yangchen’s novel. It’s just that he and Yangchen aren’t consistently with one another, and as a result, he does have a few chapters devoted solely to his story. In the end though, his story connects directly to Yangchen’s. He’s just plot B to her plot A.

Now, is he boring? I wouldn’t say so. At first he can seem kind of bland or generic, but by the end, I was enough attached to him to care about him. With that said, in comparison to Yangchen, his character and his chapters can be less than wowing, but again, that’s in comparison to Yangchen. After this novel, Yangchen stands as one of the best written Avatar characters, and she captured every page she appeared on.

B) What? No, not that I noticed. There is a gay couple featured, but there was no reason to believe Yangchen was anything, but straight.

@eslay03: Alright thanks

You're welcome. I added a bit more in an edit if you’re interested.

Ehh, I wouldn’t think so. Yangchen can enhance her speed through airbending the same way Aang does. Even if we assume Korra is faster considering she has some of the verse’s best speed feats, I don’t believe it’d be enough to give her a notable advantage. Yangchen should be as fast or faster than many of the villains who have contended with Korra.

I hope that that was a typo and you meant Kyoshi... to call Roku on par with Yangchen or Korra is delusional beyond measure. The dude lost to a volcano, something that Kyoshi or Yangchen could easily have no-sold. Also, Korra herself is very impressive and fought a spirit-powered platinum Colossus while severely holding back. And when she had to, then Korra was able to blast away an insane spirit beam from that Colossus that ripped open a fabric in spacetime.

Roku, on the other hand, got owned by a volcano, something of which the Fire Avatar (Szeto) before him could easily take care.

Roku ain't got shit on Kyoshi or most other Avatars. And Roku has had nothing to compare to Yangchen. Yangchen no-selling Old Iron as a kid with her Avatar State is similarly impressive to Korra's feats against the spirit-powered Colossus. This fight is also not one-sided by any means; Yangchen is heads and shoulders above most other Avatars, but Kyoshi is definitely a good contender. Kyoshi in her prime seems to have surpassed Yangchen, but it'd be a tough one regardless.

Now, Kuruk is definitely a worthy mention: as the Kyoshi novels reveal, Kuruk went down in history as one of the laziest Avatars who barely did much, but in reality, he fought and defeated countless spirits over and over. Yangchen even acknowledged as much, so Kuruk and Kyoshi are definitely in her tier.

Korra, however, is also in that tier. If I was to tip the victory to anyone, then it might be Yangchen, but it's close and by no means a stomp.

Legends of Korra should have been legends of Yangchen, just my opinion. OT Yangchen brutalizes Korra and scolds her for losing poorly to Kuvira

Korra would win. She is the best fighter out of everyone in the verse. She is better than Yangchen in every element. She is more powerful. And her AS is simply stronger than Yangchen.

Yangchen have simply no way to beat Korra.

Nice out of context battle when Korra was literally traumatized and out of shape. Yangchen was indeed a legend and might beat Korra after a tough fight, but it would not be brutal at all. Yangchen fought well against and beat General Old Iron, a powerful spirit, whereas Korra fought well against and eventually beat an overpowered, spirit-powered Colossus. They both have insanely strong feats to back them up.

Imo, Yangchen and Korra are both at similar stages in their progression to peak Avatar-hood. While they still have room to grow into their full power, they're both young prodigies who are fully trained and at a point where few if any other benders could take them in a fair fight. Because of that, many of their challenges focused on things other than notable bending battles, which does leave this open to some speculation.

Yangchen's mastery of airbending might surpass Korra's mastery of any individual element. Korra's waterbending might surpass Yangchen's airbending in terms of raw power, but Yangchen's technical skill and innovation is tough to beat. However, Korra's no slouch in airbending herself (it's almost as good as her waterbending, tbh), and while she wouldn't beat Yangchen in airbending I think she could at least put up a fight. Meanwhile, Yangchen doesn't have much in the way of showings for waterbending. She's implied to be a master and I'd expect her to be a challenge, but at the end of the day the showings aren't there. She's similar to Aang in that regard (maybe it's an Air Nomad Avatar thing).

When it comes to earthbending, Yangchen gets the advantage in raw power with her showing of sinking an entire building in The Legacy of Yangchen. However, she doesn't have much going for her in terms of combat showings. She also has a very impressive firebending feat in that book when she raises the temperature of a room without the occupants of the room picking up on what she was doing. From what I recall only Sozin and Iroh have shown that kind of heat manipulation previously. I would expect her to be quite skilled in firebending combat, but again she just hasn't demonstrated it.

Based on how Yangchen's battle with Old Iron is described, it might be the single most impressive combat showing held by either Avatar. It definitely showcases greater stamina than Korra, or really any other Avata-verse character, has ever had to demonstrate. However, without actually seeing the fight, it's hard to know how to use it in this kind of debate. In the fight with Kuvira's colossus, Korra showcased the raw power necessary to suggest that she too could contend with an opponent like Old Iron. Considering neither Avatar is as durable as Old Iron, it's unlikely that their fight would last for hours on end (instead of being an unstoppable force vs an immoveable object, it's an unstoppable force vs another unstoppable force), so I'm not sure the stamina aspect would come into play. However, it is still an advantage Yangchen has over Korra.

Overall, Yangchen's novels don't give her much to work with in the way of combat showings, but they do make a point to emphasize just how powerful and skilled she is with the elements (F.C. Yee does a great job of highlighting that). Korra has many more fight scenes, but she's often hindered by various circumstances or going up against low tier opponents that don't let her showcase her full potential. I think I might be inclined to give Korra an advantage by virtue of being more well rounded with combat showings for all the elements, but it would definitely be a close match either way.

Yangchen slams, strongest base form avatar

Aside from the suffocation technique, I don't get what's so great about Yangchen. tbh she's outdated. Despite being a fully realized avatar, based on her feats in the first book, she's not better than (or even as good imo) kid Aang. Korra wins this, and it won't be the most difficult fight in her life.

@agmine570:

she's not better than (or even as good imo) kid Aang

You do realize that Yangchen fought on par with Old Iron, a character that fought AS Aang right?

@pizzagod342: That was off screen, and we have no context for that. If anything, it could have been mostly AS. Was there any reason for it not to be?

She must have some really good feats in the second novel, judging by all the comments.

@agmine570:

That was off screen, and we have no context for that. If anything, it could have been mostly AS. Was there any reason for it not to be?

She only used AS during the end of the fight and she straight implies that she didn't have control of it

Yangchen is probably better in theory but Korra has so many more showings and feats with each and every element it’s hard to argue against her.

Also Korra’s performance against the mech is on par with if not superior to Yangchen fighting Old Iron

I'm -finally- about to read The Legacy of Yangchen, but I acknowledged Yangchen as an Avatar as highily trained and powerful as Roku ever since The Rift, when she fought on par with Old Iron for an entire night, until she entered the Avatar State and dominated him. The battle destroyed the city and was later thought of as a natural disaster. Comparatively, Aang, who at that point was essentially on Korra's level if not more threatening when serious, needed the Avatar State to match the same spirit in the first place. This battle is no contest, as good a fighter and gifted a bender as Korra is. She's outclassed in sheer elemental mastery.

I just finished reading it myself, I think you'll enjoy it. Be prepared to take some hits in the feels

Regarding Aang vs Old Iron, I'd hesitate to assume that Aang couldn't have engaged Old Iron without the Avatar State. If he had tried to fight Old Iron and failed to have any impact, that'd be a different story. But since Aang had full control of the Avatar State, he opted for it immediately to best draw Old Iron's full attention and keep him from hurting the bystanders. If Yangchen had mastered the Avatar State at that point, she likely would have done the same thing.

In the fight with Kuvira's mech (which was notably larger than Old Iron), Korra showcased the kind of raw power that would be necessary to engage an opponent like Old Iron, and I'm not sure Yangchen's fight puts her out of Korra's league. Maybe it would if we had more details of specific bending feats, but as it is I could see Korra accomplishing something similar.

Glad to see you again!

Aang might be able to fight Old Iron for a while even without using the Avatar State, but there's no way I can believe he'd stand his ground for hours on end with neither of them able to gain the upper hand; it's a feat not just of endurance and raw power, but general combat ability with the elements. Yangchen couldn't afford to make one mistake, otherwise it could've been fatal, and versatility, speed and battle IQ are just as important as raw power when up against a spirit that's clearly not a generic beast, but an actual warrior. Basically, I think a more holistic look at it is important, otherwise we're (maybe inadvertently) discrediting the accomplishment by breaking it down like a recipe for other characters to replicate. Sometimes the structuralist approach can distort what should simply be taken as is.

I think it was made clear that Aang needed the Avatar State to fight on par with the spirit because of the several panels of them trading punches to a standstill and being evenly matched before Toph and her students intervened, when she even mentioned they needed to metalbend the armor off, otherwise Aang wouldn't have had a "fighting chance". Now, to be clear, that's not to say that if Aang wasn't surrounded by people he couldn't have gone for a larger scale destruction like a tsunami or an earthquake the scale of Yu Dao and buried Iron, but in a head-on exchange of sheer strength, he clearly couldn't overpower him. The stone titan was a large upgrade from what he used under Sozin's Comet, so we can more or less grasp the force each of these blows they exchanged packed. If Aang could outspeed him, overpower him, restrain him and/or knock him down, he would have. But he couldn't, while using the Avatar State to a great extent. This adds up to Iron being a terrible opponent to have to survive against for a human one on one, much less make any headway with over several hours. Yangchen would have to be about as capable as what we saw from Roku in The Avatar and the Firelord for her to pull this off, and she did this as a teenager.

In regards to Korra's battle with Kuvira, I will say that the Colossus would more than likely defeat Old Iron eventually if they were to fight -mostly due to the spirit cannon- but what Korra displayed isn't nearly enough for me to say she could replicate Yangchen's showing against him without the Avatar State. Not only did she have assistance from a small army of benders, including the entire Air Nation and masters like Tenzin and the Beifongs, and high tech distractions from Varrick and Asami, she was heavily reliant on the Avatar State from the beginning too. And it's not like they stood a chance without getting in. It's unclear whether her waterbending at the end was amplified or not, but even if it wasn't, I don't think one big flash freeze against the mech not even trying to fight her at that moment means she could fight an opponent of that level for hours on end. I would also say that, while the Colossus is harder to take down long-term, Old Iron's superior strength, mobility and speed make him a more difficult opponent to actually fight for this long. The Colossus is very heavy, but it's also slow and awkward moving, not built to fight, but rather carry and shoot a weapon. It doesn't translate nearly well enough to say Korra's showing compares in my opinion.

EDIT: You seem to be right that Yangchen hadn't entirely mastered the Avatar State yet looking back, although all the above still stands. Your point that Aang only used it to draw his attention from hurting bystanders doesn't quite hold, as he simply couldn't make any headway against him (even non-lethally) while using it, which would've been optimal for him to both talk Iron down and save the town.

@pizzagod342: Apologies if I'm mistaken, but isn't the former image you posted is the page where the fight begins? You don't need to master the AS to use it.

Also General old Iron doesn't seem to be 'knocked down' there. I heard that was the final part of their fight and that it required AS. But at the end of the day, it doesn't look like Old Iron's armor is damaged or anything. It may look like I'm lowballing Yangchen at this point, but did we saw the destuctive potency of Old Iron's offence? Like, Katara was able to block a punch from him. As soon as his armor was gone, he got one shot by AS Aang. Both General Fong and Ozai had withstanded AS attacks. She says he was 'destroying the village' so it must have been nowhere near weak, but I think we can't just assume Korra or Aang won't be able to give him a good fight, or survive him. I just don't think he's some god who's single attacks destroy buildings or something. The colossal wave Korra threw at the mech might just be good enough to incapacitate the giant.

Yangchen has like one impressive airbending technique(void).

Korra is better at her in literally everything else. Korra has demonstrated so much more bending mastery and combat experience.

Yangchen has one win con while Korra can practically clear her 90% of the time.

Pizzagod is right. She knocked him down, and did so without using the Avatar State;

Gallery

The idea that General Fong and Ozai physically compare to Old Iron isn't something I'm going to respond to for obvious reasons, I'll just talk about the underlined.

We saw Old Iron destroy several small buildings and other structures just by punching the ground near them right before Yangchen engaged him. An individual punch looked like this;

Basically the shockwaves and craters of him punching the ground or one structure caused nearby buildings to fall over and get dusted. They made a point to show the radius of his strike by showing us a before and after panel one after the other.

And this is what just the edge of the cliff of the city looked like after his night-long battle with Yangchen was over;

Years later, the battle is basically a myth, and the citizens believe it was a great storm that struck the place.

Also, just in general, I'm not sure how someone reading the comic could deduce that Old Iron was less than a walking super destruction when Aang's concentrated earthbending in the Avatar State could straight up not overpower him in a head-on duel. He felt the need, for the first time, to use more than his signature elemental sphere to battle an opponent.

@anthp2000: Wow! Thanks for clarifying! General Old Iron was more of a beast than I thought. I always thought his armor and iron manipulation was the only real reason he was so much of a threat. I just found it disappointing that he got one shot after his armor was gone and that Toph and three fodders were able to take it off.

Would you put Yangchen above Korra or even Roku? Her battle with the spirit certainly puts her above Aang.

@agmine570: It makes sense he'd be very powerful. He's one of the oldest spirits we know of (alive before Wan's time), and he's very combat oriented. His armour is what makes him invulnerable, but his physical might is there regardless. Aang did kill him with one mighty shot, but that's really just a really great showing for Aang/the Avatar State. I mean, he put a massive hole in it. Visually it's damage output we rarely see. I see Toph and her students taking the armour off and Katara stopping a punch from him the same way; let's not forget that they are among the best benders alive at that point, with freakish raw power when pushed. Obviously they wouldn't be able to fight him long term or anything, but I wouldn't put it beyond them to momentarily hold him off this way.

I definitely think Yangchen is at least comparable to Roku. I feel like the impressive bending mastery we saw from Roku is essentially what'd be required to accomplish combat like that. It is my personal interpretation that what we saw in The Avatar and the Firelord is what a fully realised Avatar in their prime is meant to be, and I think all Avatars -including Korra and Aang, who I find comparable- have the potential to get to that ceiling; Yangchen probably did as early as a late teenager, more or less.

------------------------

Sidenote, I think it's actually quite fitting that we didn't, and probably won't, get a better look at Yangchen's duel with Old Iron. She was describing the fight to Aang, but it seems like the destruction of that city and potential victims is something she's very not proud of. In The Dawn of Yangchen it is mentioned that when people years later talk about her 'legendary battle with the old spirit' she remains silent. The way her bending mastery is portrayed in the novels does a good job at supporting her mastery, though. Yee had hinted early on in an interview that he tried to challenge Yangchen in a different way than they did the previous fleshed out Avatars we've seen. Aang and Kyoshi received no mentorship or Avatar training (to different degrees), and Korra lost her Avatarhood as soon as she mastered it in Spirits, and then feared tapping into the Avatar State again unless absolutely necessary seeing how vulnerable she was (q.v. the Book III: Change artbook). Yangchen was at a different point in her journey however;

There's always a challenge to answering the question of "How is the most powerful being in the world going to face opposition?" It usually involves different ways of narratively denying the Avatar the trappings of power they should theoretically have. Aang was removed from his people and timeline, Korra was faced with rapid change, and Kyoshi received no training. The Dawn of Yangchen tries to answer the narrative challenge by giving her the nominal high status that comes with being the Avatar. But it hinders her movements and makes people treat her like a figurehead. Furthermore, she's a dedicated pacifist whose solution isn't to immediately drop pacifist beliefs. The conflict comes out in the book through the astounding amount of effort it takes to be an effective leader under those constraints.

It's exactly why they're not nearly as action-oriented stories as the Kyoshi novels (or the shows, obviously). The conflict is not physical because no one can actually physically challenge Yangchen. She's not put in that position. Until she's forced to drop three combustion benders at least, lol.

Thanks! And congrats on the mod-ship (not sure how long that's been a thing)

If we had more information about what the fight actually entailed, I'd be more inclined to fully agree. Don't get me wrong, it's an impressive showing just based on the information we have, but there's only so much we can infer. We have no idea what kind of tactics either off them used or what bending skills Yangchen demonstrated outside of a single scan, and considering how different this fight would be from a bender vs bender battle it's hard to say how it exactly translates in this kind of scenario.

We know that Yangchen overpowered Old Iron and knocked him down using the Avatar State. Aang, with full control of the Avatar State, had access to that same ability (power/skills of past Avatars and all that). It goes against the very nature of the Avatar State to say that Yangchen (when she hadn't fully mastered the AS) was capable of something that Aang (who had fully mastered it) wasn't capable of. I think an exception could be made for that as Avatars age past their prime, but that's beside the point here.

Of course, the most logical explanation for why Aang opted for a rock giant fight instead of just blasting Old Iron down is quite simple: the rock giant looked awesome and made for a very fun fight scene for us as readers to enjoy. But we also know that Aang wanted to keep Old Iron's rage focused on him while minimizing collateral damage, and that he didn't want to actually hurt Old Iron. Both of those factors would keep him from unleashing his full potential power and could explain him opting for a tactic that made him the biggest target around. Doing something to more immediately overpower Old Iron might've been a better tactic, but it's very in character for Aang to avoid taking the overwhelming might approach

I'm not inclined to try to calc Old Iron's height at the moment, but his head is about as tall as Yangchen/Aang. Meanwhile, the mech's head is an entire room that fit Kuvira, Korra, and their entire battle. It's massively bigger than Old Iron, and there's no question of who would win if they were to fight. It'd just be a matter of time

Korra only used two flashes of the Avatar State during that fight. The first was when she boosted her airbending to try to push the mech over with the coordinated team effort. I could buy her second blast from that scene not being AS boosted, but I wouldn't try to really use that as a feat for her base level. The other was when she was airspouting towards it then sped away when it blasted her (presumably using the AS to boost her speed and help her draw the cannon's fire). Maybe the boost lingered for her subsequent fire jets/rock throwing combo, hard to say for sure. But she continued to launch rocks of that size after the AS boost should have subsided, and that kind of earthbending power is well within the bounds of what the Avatar should be able to do. The fire jets thing is more debatable, I'll admit. But considering that Mako propelled himself a respectable distance later in the fight and that Korra's generally a more powerful firebender than Mako, I'm not convinced it's outside of her realistic realm of power.

For the flash freeze, there's no indication that the Avatar State was involved. No glowing eyes, no AS theme, nothing of the sort. True, it is her most powerful waterbending showing, but it's not outside the realm of what's been shown to be possible for other Avatars. The main thing this shows is that Korra does have the power necessary to contend with an opponent like Old Iron. It doesn't replicate all the other aspects that could've been involved in Yangchen's fight, but Korra has plenty of other fight scenes to demonstrate those other skills as well.

Anyway, this has been getting way longer than I had initially intended, lol. I should really wrap this up and do my actual work.

As a stand-alone instance, Yangchen's fight with Old Iron is arguably one of the most impressive single combat showings in the Avatar-verse. However, I'm reluctant to use it to place Yangchen solidly above Korra for a couple reasons:

1. We barely see anything of the fight itself. We can speculate what was involved and how Yangchen might've approached it, but we can't say with any certainty that she was doing things that someone like Korra wouldn't have been able to match
2. While fighting an opponent like Old Iron is very impressive, it's also very different from a bender vs bender battle. Yangchen would have to approach an opponent like Korra completely differently from Old Iron. While Yangchen is consistently held up as a top-tier master, she also has very little in terms of fights with other benders. Korra's also kinda held back in that regard, but not nearly to the same degree that Yangchen is.

I think I had a third reason when I started writing this, but I forget what it is

Basically, while I find the Old Iron fight and Yangchen's implied ability/limited feats quite impressive, I'm not convinced they place her a tier above Korra by the end of the series/comics. From a feats perspective, Korra simply has so much more going for her in terms of combat showings, and from a story perspective Korra seems to be written as a comparably realized Avatar in her own right

Ok, that's all I got for now

@arcus1:

If we had more information about what the fight actually entailed, I'd be more inclined to fully agree. Don't get me wrong, it's an impressive showing just based on the information we have, but there's only so much we can infer. We have no idea what kind of tactics either off them used or what bending skills Yangchen demonstrated outside of a single scan, and considering how different this fight would be from a bender vs bender battle it's hard to say how it exactly translates in this kind of scenario.

In all honesty, this is far from a reasonable issue in my opinion. The feat is just orders of magnitude superior to almost anything we've seen in all titles, that I don't need any specifics. We don't have to do any flashy guesses; it is clear from all information available that Yangchen wasn't running away or anything, but actively fought him. That's all I need to know. It comes down to the fact that Korra, for all her showings, for certain cannot do what Yangchen did.

The point that this would be different to a bending duel is fair, however, after a certain threshold, it becomes secondary. Once you reach the level of accomplishment -combat or bending- that Yangchen did, it is wholly insignificant. Korra's battles with lesser benders are just not going to grant her useful enough experience, nor do they make me lean in her favour even a little bit. Also, just in general, that's kind of wording it like Yangchen does not have combat experience against human opponents, which isn't accurate. Yeah, we've seen less action with her, but she's a relatively recent and fully trained Avatar who's travelled the world. And it's not like she's losing to -or even challenged by- any benders Korra's defeated one on one. I simply cannot compare them on principle of how capable Yangchen is.

We know that Yangchen overpowered Old Iron and knocked him down using the Avatar State. Aang, with full control of the Avatar State, had access to that same ability (power/skills of past Avatars and all that). It goes against the very nature of the Avatar State to say that Yangchen (when she hadn't fully mastered the AS) was capable of something that Aang (who had fully mastered it) wasn't capable of. I think an exception could be made for that as Avatars age past their prime, but that's beside the point here.

Of course, the most logical explanation for why Aang opted for a rock giant fight instead of just blasting Old Iron down is quite simple: the rock giant looked awesome and made for a very fun fight scene for us as readers to enjoy. But we also know that Aang wanted to keep Old Iron's rage focused on him while minimizing collateral damage, and that he didn't want to actually hurt Old Iron. Both of those factors would keep him from unleashing his full potential power and could explain him opting for a tactic that made him the biggest target around. Doing something to more immediately overpower Old Iron might've been a better tactic, but it's very in character for Aang to avoid taking the overwhelming might approach

Okay, I really need to stress that in no way was I implying Old Iron is equal to the Avatar State in every way. I gave you the examples of a tsunami and an earthquake to get that across. I clearly agree that Aang could've taken out Old Iron in an unpopulated landmass using more extreme, overwhelming, ranged bending. Just like Korra could've taken out Kuvira's mech if she did not care about wrecking Republic City. The point being, this does not take away from Old Iron's demonstrable ability to match, blow for blow, Aang's concentrated earthbending. It's a testament to his strength, his speed and his own physical might. To put it bluntly, using the Avatar State is about both versatility and sheer power; if the spirit can match the power, he still cannot match the full elemental might of the Avatar. It doesn't make an unenhanced -which is what this thread is about- bender's ability to match him any less impressive.

The underlined is something I'm never going to agree with though. The book made it clear through repeated exposition that Aang couldn't have actually hurt, much less kill, Old Iron there as long as he had the armour on. Again, he was incapable of overpowering, restraining or knocking him down. Yeah, he could've done so if he used a hurricane or a massive blast air, but this simply isn't the point. Old Iron's threat/power level is very clearly established within the story in all cases.

I'm not inclined to try to calc Old Iron's height at the moment, but his head is about as tall as Yangchen/Aang. Meanwhile, the mech's head is an entire room that fit Kuvira, Korra, and their entire battle. It's massively bigger than Old Iron, and there's no question of who would win if they were to fight. It'd just be a matter of time

As I already said, I'd imagine Kuvira would win, mostly due to the spirit cannon. Frankly, outside of that, I wouldn't be shocked if Old Iron bombarded the mech in hand-to-hand combat and tore it limb by limb (the mech itself could tear its own limbs apart), or punched through the glass cockpit et cetera. He seems to be stronger, massively faster, and an actual warrior. It could end up like the Hulk fighting Giant-Man (a disanalogous example given the Colossus' own physical might relative to Old Iron, I know, but one to get my point across: size and weight arent quite it). The Colossus was never built to fight and it was clear. It was built to carry a cannon over country long distances, aim and shoot. And of course it was in armour that wouldn't allow bending to drop it, just like Old Iron. And its size/weight and material it's made of means great strength by principle as well -although not quite on par with what Old Iron was doing with his fists. It's still a slow, awkward moving robot.

That said, I honestly don't care who'd win between Old Iron and the mech in the end, but, whether you agree or disagree, I think this segment is important to the discussion because it emphasises that it'd be inaccurate to equate the way the Colossus was approached by benders to the way Old Iron would be. They're big, metal wearing beasts and that's it, nothing else is common. Old Iron is a much more physical opponent than any "giant" we've seen in the shows. He wouldn't be walking through Republic City at a slow pace while characters took their time earthbending buildings, rivers and tornadoes at him and tying him up with cables and flying around him with mechanical flies.

But (!!) I understand your initial point talking about the size wasn't that. It's to say that Korra showed enough raw power to take on Old Iron, because she pushed and froze a larger, heavier object: yeah, she showed some good waterbending. I'm sure she could stop some moves, the same way Katara blocked a punch. She might even push him, she could last minutes, which is already way past how any unamplified bender, including Korra herself, has fared fighting giant spirits in the series. But this is so far from what Yangchen did. Like, so far. Super far. We need to remember that these are characters, human benders, they're not machines or video game characters. Korra briefly pushing back and incapacitating the Colossus doesn't mean she can do anywhere near what Yangchen did. She, like everyone, has a certain threshold of endurance, mentality and overall bending ability, and all of these are connected. This is what I mean by us losing the forest for the trees when breaking down characters and feats in the traditional approach. Korra won't press a "super move" button and spam tidal waves for hours. She's a bender and a fighter, and she straight up hasn't done anything near replicating what Yangchen did, regardless of whether we've seen Yangchen perform specific cool bending techniques and feats that Korra did throughout the show but that don't in any capacity imply she could go toe to toe with Old Iron for hours.

I also think I should say that I disagree with the way you talked about 'endurance' in a post above, and how it wouldn't come into play because the fight between Yangchen and Korra wouldn't last that long. This comes back to what I mean about breaking down everything into stats. It doesn't paint a realistic picture, exactly because benders aren't machines or generic wizards. They use their chi energy and martial arts training, and their mental and physical ability also comes into play when bending. Water, earth, fire and airbenders all feel it when performing the average attack or when pushing the envelope with their bending, to all degrees. Timing, position, even deeper character and mentality (when they do come into play) et cetera all matter too. Take this instance with Korra waterbending at the Colossus; first, she needs a distraction. Kuvira was entirely focused on Varrick and the Satos flying around her. Then, she has to get near the water, take a crouching stance and bend it upwards. Then, to continue with icebending on the other side of the mech, she has to wait a few seconds, take a quick breath in and lift the rest of the water to freeze while in a new stance.

None of this is to take jabs at what Korra did, nor is to say that it's not a relevant showing for combat. This goes for all characters and their displayed bending showings. They need to be looked at within deeper context. This is just a fitting example to show that we cannot simply say "X bender did this and that, showed enough raw power here and can do Y move" and say they can replicate a series of chained tasks and everything that comes with battling one of the more powerful spirits -at least a bit over halfway up the food chain- for hours. To put it differently, Yangchen would straight up need to be a lot more powerful and overall more capable than Korra -the whole package, endurance-raw power, skill, battle IQ, all of which are interconnected- to do what she did, in my opinion, when you put all of what Korra's done down and look at the whole picture.

Wondering about the extra specifics of her duel with Old Iron is, to me, more a topic of interest and excitement rather than doubt. I cannot reasonably deduce she's any less than top notch in everything across the board to do what she did. The question here isn't how she'd win against Korra, it's about if she would, and it's clear to me she would. The fact that we have seen a fully realised Avatar who's genuinely mastered all elements to the highest degree, in the form of Roku, allows me to envision a comparable case for Yangchen. Now this part is subjective, but if we're asking about the how, then I'm confident that's how.

Side-note, I don't really think it's reliable to say that Korra is portrayed as being on a similar point of Avatarhood to Yangchen and that's why she'd be comparable in actuality. We cannot ignore their individual, real achievements. Otherwise I could say the way Korra's prodigiousness and mastery is talked about as soon as the beginning of Book I, that she'd be on a similar level to Roku. And there's no question of off-screen/panel or medium differences there, she literally just isn't. She is very clearly comparable to Aang at 13-17 to me so far.

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I have things to discuss in regards to "the flash" and whether we can be sure she wasn't amplified for those parts of the battle, but I feel like that'd be off-topic. It wouldn't change my views on the topic at hand if we got a confirmation that it was unamplified right now. For what its worth, I'm personally inclined to agree it's her own power, there's just a bit of doubt whenever I'm discussing it.

That's it! And yeah, my posts are bigger than I initially thought too, it's just been a while since I debated, so I'm all for it, lol.

Lol, been a while for me too!

Unfortunately I don't really have time for another extensive post, but it seems like the things we're viewing differently are subjective enough that there's not going to be a "right answer," so to speak. While I'm not sure I agree with all your points, I can definitely see why you would see it that way. So, out of curiosity, let me ask you this: What would Korra need to do for you to place her on Yangchen's tier? Other than have a replica of Yangchen's fight with Old Iron, that is.

For me, it would take a couple things for me to be fully convinced that Yangchen's a solid tier above Korra (either of these could largely convince me, both would confirm it)

1. I'd want to see Yangchen beat, or preferably stomp, an Ozai-tier bender. No Avatar State or special circumstances, just Yangchen duelng and decisively beating someone who's supposed to be the best in the world at their particular element. Kinda like Roku vs Sozin, except actually fighting to the finish instead of cutting the fight short with the Avatar State.
2. I'd also prefer confirmation that Korra is not capable of something like that quite yet. Imo, Unalaq was that level of opponent for Korra, and maybe Kuvira was too considering the environmental conditions of their fight in the mech, but she wasn't decisively beating either of them. However, by the comics Korra seems to be stronger than ever, and if she can one-shot Mako and Bolin I can see her handling stronger opponents in an intense but decisive battle. However, without more showings, this is still just speculation on my part

I'd argue Korra beating Dark Avatar Unalaq is better than fighting Old Iron. Plus her being the most prodigious and diversified Avatar.

Will the spirits above, please announce a Korra animated project already? She must have her dues.

@arcus1: I think Korra has a long way to go as a fire and earthbender, and, to a lesser degree, as an airbender. Like I said, I personally envision Yangchen as being on a similar standing to Roku as an Avatar, in order to do what she did, so if Korra reached a level where her ability in all four bending arts was comparable, it'd be a fairly massive upgrade. In fairness, I think it's a matter of time, regardless of whether we'll actually see it or not.

EDIT: In regards to your bullet points, I personally have no doubt Yangchen could treat Sozin -or someone like him- the same way Roku did. Not finishing the fight doesn't quite say much though, as Roku could have at any moment.

Unalaq really just doesn't compare at all in my opinion. Nothing they did in that fight, even with all that use of their Avatar States, much less without them, compares to fighting an invlunerable spirit titan that can level houses with his fists for hours. There was just little to no bending on that level. The most impressive bit was them cracking that ice at the end, but... again, that was another bit that involved their respective amplifications by Vaatu and Raava, and just not all that, really. I suppose there's Unalaq bending a fissure, but I was never able to quantify that, and Korra was going to die without Raava there anyway.

The Colossus is definitely an opponent that's just as dangerous as, if quite different to, what Yangchen was facing. If Korra was fighting that mech (a) alone, (b) for at least an hour or two, and (c) without using the Avatar State, and made headway against it, I'd accept it as a directly comparable showing. But I think everything points out to her not being there yet. I don't think she's there by the comic books either. Mako and Bolin should be as good as punching bags to her as soon as the second or third season on my book.

@anthp2000:

Like I said, I personally envision Yangchen as being on a similar standing to Roku as an Avatar, in order to do what she did

I'm not sure what she did to earn that treatment, considering that even with Roku's limited showings, he vastly outclasses her in scale and power in pretty much every element, and in most of them by far. I refreshed my memory on her feats, and was convinced yet again that she is severely overhyped as a bender. Of course, her suffocation technique is extremely effective and would help her win against a lot of great opponents, may be even most other avatars who don't know about the technique and how to deal with it, but that aside, the only thing she has over Korra is a significantly higher level of mastery over air, while not necessarily superior power with it. The only other feat that comes to mind is her sinking a temple into the ground, but depending on how large the building is even that might not be outside of Korra's capabilities, considering her casually flipping half a street with one move. The only actually impressive and notable aspect of her fighting General Old Iron feat is endurance, which is only surpassed (if i'm not forgetting anything else) by Yun battling Father Glowworm for three days. But that's about it. If the suffocation technique is not restricted, she most likely beats Korra with it, but that doesn't put her above Korra as a bender or combatant, and definitely doesn't put her on Roku's level.

Unalaq really just doesn't compare at all in my opinion. Nothing they did in that fight, even with all that use of their Avatar States, much less without them, compares to fighting an invlunerable spirit titan that can level houses with his fists for hours

General Old Iron doesn't compare to Unalaq in speed and mobility, while leveling houses is something both Korra and Unalaq should be able to do without that much trouble, especially considering that the town was basically mostly a wooden village. The key is still only the length of their battle.

There was just little to no bending on that level

On what level? The level you are talking about is only as great as your imagination pictures it for you, because we don't actually see any notable destruction caused by GOI. Not to mention, while focusing on the Unalaq battle you seem to forget that Korra has a number of incredible feats of scale and power beyond it. The kind of waves she created to flash-freeze the colossus would definitely cause very notable damage to a town near which Yangchen and GOI fought.

The Colossus is definitely an opponent that's just as dangerous as, if quite different to, what Yangchen was facing. If Korra was fighting that mech (a) alone, (b) for at least an hour or two, and (c) without using the Avatar State, and made headway against it, I'd accept it as a directly comparable showing

Considering that the Colossus was a few times larger and heavier, and had a deathbeam that could cut through the entire city, and could cause way more destruction even without it than GOI did, you are overselling the spirit quite a bit by calling a feat like that comparable to what Yangchen did. If Korra pulled that off on her own, it would've been a much better feat.

For some reason you are going under the assumption that Korra wouldn't have been able to deal with General Old Iron. And even metalbending and spiritbending aside, to put Korra and Yangchen on a somewhat equal footing, with just waterbending Korra demonstrated the ability to flash-freeze, knock down and immobilize much larger and heavier targets, and completely no-sell attacks that blast through skyscrapers, as well as top tier mobility with multiple elements. Considering the battle happened near a pretty much infinite supply of water, at the very least stalemating GOI should be something absolutely within Korra's capabilities. As to for how long, it's unclear. But considering that fighting for days is something within the realm of possibility at least for some characters of the verse, but they are rarily (if ever) pressured into doing so, i believe there is a list of characters with top tier physicals, combative and bending proficiency and no endurance anti-feats that should at the very least get the benefit of the doubt on whether they can pull off something like this or not.

The reason I point to Unalaq is because he can do anything Old Iron can, and than some. Old Iron smashing the roofs and walls of small homes from a town 500+ years ago isn't particularly impressive.

In comparison Old Iron could not break Yancghen's AS earth bending or Aang's. But Post-Fusion Unalaq disintegrated an avalanche of boulders from AS Korra, pre past lives severance. And Korra could hold him off briefly in the DAS.

Even aside from power, Old Iron is just a giant brick. Unalaq commands larger scale, range, precision, versatility, and speed. And Korra still beat him, forcing him to rely on the DAS to break free when she had him dead for rights.

And Korra was only 17/18 during this fight, same age as Yangchen in the books. However her mastery and combat prowess even midway through the series is above what Yangchen did.

@tektonic: Although, I'm not sure she had him 'Dead for rights' though. I think we can't just get to the conclusion that Korra is a better waterbender than Unalaq simply because she swiftly used his attack against him. I don't think it was a 'raw power tug in war'. Unalaq was simply taken back by Korra swiftly changing his whip and pulling him to the ground and off his spout. After he did fell, there are no signs of Unalaq being hurt, if anything, it looks like he sticked to the landing like the pro he is. He could have just entered the DAS simply to turn the tides in his favor, not because he was desperate. Also, I don't know why some people think Unalaq was suffering a disadvantage in that position. + Korra did use the AS 3 more times than he used the DAS, and Unalaq did win round 1 when he entraped Korra in a chasm and Raava had to save her. Just supporting/defending Avatar's true GOAT uncle Unalaq here.

I wanted to make a case for Korra, but it's true in regard to what was said earlier, it's hard to scale Korra vs Unalaq, since Raava and Vaatu carried the fight, and we can't determine their power due to the circumstances of the spirits' intervention, so I'm glad we're ruling this one out. In regard to Korra skills with other elements, her Airbending seems to be one of the most impressive, second to her waterbending, then the most impressive in my opinion is that time when she was tied up and was still able to earth bend. The question is would she be able to fight General Old Iron for hours on end without rest or AS? I don't think so.

@futureisbest: We can't just 'rule that one out' though. Raava helped Korra once to get her out of the chasm, Vaatu helped Unalaq once when he sucked Raava out of Korra. I don't know where and when did this headcanon formed and became popular, but there is nothing that supports Harmonic Convergance powers Avatars. Korra does have some impressive feats in base during that fight.