Yamamoto vs Ichibei

D4mn, I was about to make this thread.

@joviolma: I am psychic and I beat you to it

Probably Ichibe, because his hax is super broken.

Ichibe his showing vs ywach was better although I think it is implied yamamoto put ywach down at some point earlier in the lore.

I could be remembering things wrong though but yamamoto not having his Bankai really nerfed him

Ichibei without question 10/10, Yamamoto has great attack potency but Ichibei can literally just neutralize anything his ink touches or that has "darkness". Ichibei's power is fundamentally on another level and the only way I see Yamamoto winning is Ichibei allowing Yamamoto to win.

Note: Remember when Yhwach fought Ichibei, he had already absorbed the souls of a dozen more Sternritters who died since he fought Yamamoto along with fragments of his own soul. Strongest he absorbed were people like Gremmy and Royd Llyod. That means he was much stronger.

Speed: Ichibei is much faster based on his 1000 Ri feat and matching Yhwach's speed who blitzed Yamamoto twice.

Physical Strength/hakuda: Ichibei is much stronger based on how he smacked a half-powered Yhwach 1000 Ri away (1000 Ri = 3927 km = Continental distance), then crushed his reishi attack with his palm, chopped through Blut Vene Anhaben with the help of a Hidden Hado, and then flexed his arm so hard that it overpowered Blut Vene and broke Yhwach's face.

Reiatsu: Ichibei doesn't really have reiatsu feats, but his physical stats should tell you that he's not weaker than Yamamoto in that regard.

Durability: ichibei's durability is proportional to his physical strength, and he could crush Yhwach's reishi with no injury and resist Anhaben.

Endurance: Ichibei's endurance isn't any less than Yamamoto, since he took being stabbed by Almighty Yhwach's sword (that one-shotted Yamamoto) and could still fight on.

Kido: Ichibei's Kido prowess is superior to Yamamoto because of 1000 Ri Palm and Hado chop, the latter of which broke Yhwach's strongest defense while Aizen tanked Yamamoto's forbidden Hado.

Zanjutsu: Ichibei doesn't use a sword, but his cqc skill isn't any less than Yamamoto since he was trading blows with a much stronger Yhwach.

Zanpakuto: Ichibei wins because his hax outclasses Yamamoto's raw power. Even in its sealed state, Ichimonji can create barriers and cut names. In Shikai, Ichibei can control all the black in the world and turn it into its ink weapon. Since Yamamoto wears a black kosode, all Ichibei has to do is pull out the black on his clothes like he did with Yhwach and instantly drench Yamamoto and his zanpakuto in it. Since black is just a color it cannot be burned away (and it's immune to Zanka no Tachi heat anyway). Ichibei can also use Futen Taisatsuryō.

Ichibe quite decisively. Superior stats + Ichimonji = GG.

Ichibe slaps him to another continent

Ichibei decisively. If Yana's bankai even looks like a threat Ichibei will just use his bankai.

Ichibei wins.

Ichibei.

Looks like I made a mismatch

Yamamoto stomps. People who think Ichibe is stronger are just wanking. First it's a common missconception that Ichibe is the strongest shinigami. Actually, Yamamoto IS the strongest and this much was made clear.

Next, Ichibe participated in 1 fight and won a total of 0 fights in Bleach. Yamamoto has a few arcs, manga chapters and fillers worth of great feats including many spectacular wins.

Because of that Yamamoto has very well rounded and well GROUNDED stats.

We know his physicals are absolutely monstrous (can shatter a high tier arrancar level soul with one H2H technique)

We know he has so much spirit energy that even without going into shikai he is passively reiatsu-crushing vice captain level shinigamis around him.

We know he is one of the fastest characters in the series, much faster then the likes of Kyoraku.

We know he is a high tier kidou master

we know he is so durable he can tank his own multi-city level explosion without even being critically injured.

What exactly do we know about Ichibe in comparison? From his one, short fight? Little to nothing that's the truth.

Even if we compare the feats they have in common, which is their showings against Yhwach, it's clear that Yamamoto did a lot better in the end.

First of all Yamamoto WON a fight against Almighty mode Yhwach in the prime and absolutely raped Lloyed version of Yhwach in his far weaker EOS version which was basically the exact same power level as regular Yhwach without the almighty. The only reason why he lost was because Yhwach used a Lloyed as a decoy, luring Yamamoto into revealing his entire bankai and then he could seal it while the decoy died in the process. If Yamamoto fought with Yhwach directly he would kill his ass, which is something Ichibe could not do. Ichibe was winning the fight against non-almighty Yhwach, but he still didn't even come close to killing him. And then when Yhwach entered almighty mode he one shot Ichibe.

So comparing their feats against Yhwach Yamamoto clearly was far more impressive.

As for their bankai powers specifically... well Yamamoto's is clearly more deadly if you ask me. He can create an army of summons, surround himself with impenetrable shield and create both short and long range attacks that literally erase anything they touch. Ichibe's bankai is much more centered around hax that required specific conditions. He can rename you and depower you, but only if you allow him to shower you with ink or straight write a new name on your body. He can control reality, but only the "darkness". Well neither will be really effective against Yamamoto. Because Yamamoto's bankai surrounds him with fire, there will be literally no darkness or shadows in direct contact with Yamamoto and because Yamamoto has range advantage he doesn't have to ever come close to Ichibe to allow him to shower him with ink or write anything on him in the first place.

In other words, Yamamoto has every advantage.

1. He has more onscreen feats and wins

2. Has high tier and well rounded stats in comparison to Ichibe's mostly unknown stats.

3. He has better showings against both Almighty and non-Almighty Yhwach if you think about it.

4. His bankai is more direct and more deadly

@thoromdil: 1. Ichibei was born far before yama so his statement means nothing when he is but a child to ichibei.

2. Ichibei was sending yhwach 1000 ri with physical strength alone that's better that battering wonderweiss (which is a great feat don't get me wrong) and he did it casually multiple times

3. Yama while serious soul crushed nanao... ichibei while casual and relaxing was accidentally crushing renji and rukia.

https://www.mangareader.net/bleach/545/8

https://www.mangareader.net/bleach/545/14

4. Yhwach blitzed yama and then yhwach got blitzed by ichibei. That makes ichibei faster than yhwach

5. Yhwach didn't have the almighty in his last fight with yama. He wasn't even activated in any of the times we saw him. Not to mention the fight happened off panel so we don't even know how yama won but judging from yhwach comments on him I doubt it was a 1v1 anyway

https://www.mangareader.net/bleach/631/17

You can see the almighty not activated

https://www.mangareader.net/bleach/633/9

Even in this panel the almighty isn't active yet. He only has one set of pupils which means his eyes aren't open yet.

6. Yama was casually one shot by yhwach. A stronger yhwach was getting his attacks palmed and getting completely overpowered by ichibei.

7. Yama doesn't have better feats against yhwach???? He got one shot by him and used bankai on a regular sternritter not even an elite. Royd isn't close to yhwach in power.

8. Ichibei is zanpaktuo is much better. It can argued whether the ink will evaporate or touch yama but since it's essentially darkness that he is throwing it would still depower yama imo. Not like he needs it anyway. He can just stomp on yama and be done with him. Or slap him away 1000 ri.

Ichibei stomps. The royal guard as a whole are much stronger than the entire gotei. Yama is honestly like kirinji level imo. I think he would beat kirinji in fight but he is still around that level

Ichibei godstomps

Ichibei Stomps

Ichibei easily. He fared so much better against a stronger Yhwach.

Ichibei, this should be obvious.

@vinec1993: @thoromdil:

I always inferred that Ichibei was part of the original squad. Am I wrong?

Ichibei low to mid dif. The only thing he needs to watch out for is Yamamoto’s bankai, but his superior stats and hax should be enough to overcome it.

Ichibe mid diff

He was not. That was the theory before the second invasion, but the novels refute it. Ichibei existed before Soul Society was even formed and named everything in SS, so he would have been a Royal Guard a long time before the Gotei was formed 1000 years ago. Same for Nimaiya, both Ichibei and he were the original RG which predated the Gotei. When Ikomikidomoe attacked Soul Society millennia ago back when Yamamoto was young and there wasn't a military organization, it was Ichibei & Nimaiya that defeated it when it infiltrated the Royal Realm.

The rest of the RG did come from the original Gotei.

Ichibe stomps

Neither stomps the other. Insane.

Ichibe still wins though. I know Yamamoto actually defeated Yhwach before but it's simply way too hard to actually say Yamamoto has the counters necessary against Ichibe.

@faradaysloth:

Honestly...........

You think with the way the Novels were trying to clear up the plot holes

They would go into more depth about how Yamamoto and Ichibe fought all those years ago and just HOW Yama won

could go either way if its Base ichibei vs Bankai Yamamoto

Shikai/Bankai Ichibei stomps Yamamoto

Base Ichibei= Yhwach

Yhwach=Bankai Yamamoto

Yhwach one shot Base/Shikai Yamamoto

so with all of this is obvious that Ichibei is dozens of times stronger than Yamamoto.

Ichibei should pull the win here

Ichibei solidly. He already nullified Yhwach’s Zanka no Tachi and is directly stated to be above Yamma.

Luv em both but i feel like if yamma starts in bankai he casually flexes and ichibei gets turned to dust

@citgo: A battle between Shinigami is a battle between Spiritual Pressure. Ichibei’s spiritual pressure is greater so Yama cant do that

Yama has the better bankai in my opinion but Ichibei has the higher stats and hax which can overcome Yamas bankai so Ichibei should win more times than not

Yamamoto defeated Yhwach 1000 years ago, who used the Almighty back then. We saw Yhwach one-shotted Ichibei when he activated the Almighty and the same Yhwach lost to Prime Yamamoto. Just wanted to say this to the idiots comparing their performance against Yhwach in the last arc as some sort of proof.

Yamamoto's portrayal is superior to Ichibei's, even if the latter has better feats, because portrayal is author's belief and I think Yamamoto wins based on that.

Young Yama is the strongest soul reaper to ever exist. Old one handed & nerfed yama is still above all Shinigami.

Young Yamamoto is weaker than Old Yamamoto, his bankai 1000 years ago was weaker and less Developed, there is no reason to assume Yamamoto got weaker unless you mean in ferocity and personality then yes, Ichibei is the Leader of the Shinigami which was confirm by him when he fought Yhwach, to steal a bankai the quincy in question require similar or higher power than the shinigami he is taking it from which is why only Yhwach could steal Yamamoto bankai meaning they are similar if not equal power as in Bankai Yamamoto = Yhwach.

the facts are

Base Yamamoto <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Yhwach to the point he was one shot

Base Ichibei = Yhwach

if the same multiplier for Shikai and Bankai apply to top tier Shinigami then Ichibei is by far superior.

Ichibei is canonically superior apart from having better feats anyway.

This^^^

Ichibei stomps

Ichibei should win. Also Yama's statement of something like there isn't a soul reaper born in the last 1000 years who was born more powerful than Yama but the novel confirmed ichibei is way older than Yama so that statement definitely doesn't apply to him. Yama shouldn't be able to overwhelm him with reaitsu ichibei has better hax and is faster imo.

@whatamiseeing: u know theres a lot of bleach fans that argue that having higher power or spiritual pressure WONT allow one to overcome hax, for example yamma turning ichibei to dust

@citgo: Yama doesnt use hax. I am not saying if Yama attacks and lands a hit Ichibei wont turn to dust. I am saying yama cant flex his spiritual pressure and turn Ichibei to dust.

Really close match could go either way honestly, but maybe a slight majority to Yama. If this was prime Yamamoto then I think he wins, since he apparently defeated Yhwach when they were younger 1000 years ago.

@whatamiseeing: oh ight

But if yamma hits ichibei wit the north its a wrap. But its true hax can b overcome by having greater reiatsu

Yea its a wrap. Yea thats true but the one to overcome the hax must be at least twice as strong as the other. That is why Aizen could overcome Soi fons shikai but byakuya couldn’t overcome Zommaris hax.

Let's do a little bump on this to see if people still think Yama would win

If yamamoto was in his prime he could win, but ichibe probably makes old man yama his slave.

How is old man yama winning in a "really close match" when he couldn't even turn yhwach to ash in base?

Ichibei stomps. Zero division is canonically started to be stronger. Although not by their APs, Ichibei is faster and his hax could conceptually turn Genryusai into an ant.