Xeno Goku vs Pegasus Seiya

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Godren

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mrx1122

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@godren said:

The only "Context" involving Demigra multiversal destruction is simply in the story of Xenoverse 1 and 2. Xenoverse is structured as a universe with infinite possibilities. The reason he is considered multiversal is that he scales to Chronoa and higher after he absorbed the Toki-Toki himself (a bird that lays eggs that contain all the time that will exist for every universe). Another reason they're multiversal is scaling from Bardock (Time breaker variant) in Xenoverse he was destroying timelines in his fight with Mira physically with his punches alone (This was a Mira that was much weaker since h absorbed Toki-Toki egg and not the bird itself).Xeno Goku literally 1 shotted ever single person mentioned here while they were amped up even further.

Now unto Heroes, I haven't personally played it myself since it's a Japanese arcade game. It's essentially a composite dragon ball with even stronger versions of the characters for no reason really. It's essentially an infinite multiverse or a big compilation of what-if stories. Beat the protagonist is from the real world (in dragon ball) and he makes an avatar in the game kind of like SAO to live his dream of being a hero.It's all fanservice of who can be stronger for fun without any real reason at all except demon or dark magic amps.

isn't xeno goku only in dragonball heroes and not in dragonball xenoverse?

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TheDeathstar

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This is a mismatch in favor of Xeno Goku and should be locked I think.

@jashro44

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Godren

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@mrx1122 said:
@godren said:

The only "Context" involving Demigra multiversal destruction is simply in the story of Xenoverse 1 and 2. Xenoverse is structured as a universe with infinite possibilities. The reason he is considered multiversal is that he scales to Chronoa and higher after he absorbed the Toki-Toki himself (a bird that lays eggs that contain all the time that will exist for every universe). Another reason they're multiversal is scaling from Bardock (Time breaker variant) in Xenoverse he was destroying timelines in his fight with Mira physically with his punches alone (This was a Mira that was much weaker since h absorbed Toki-Toki egg and not the bird itself).Xeno Goku literally 1 shotted ever single person mentioned here while they were amped up even further.

Now unto Heroes, I haven't personally played it myself since it's a Japanese arcade game. It's essentially a composite dragon ball with even stronger versions of the characters for no reason really. It's essentially an infinite multiverse or a big compilation of what-if stories. Beat the protagonist is from the real world (in dragon ball) and he makes an avatar in the game kind of like SAO to live his dream of being a hero.It's all fanservice of who can be stronger for fun without any real reason at all except demon or dark magic amps.

isn't xeno goku only in dragonball heroes and not in dragonball xenoverse?

That is correct but Xenoverse is canon to Heroes but Heroes isn't to Xenoverse if you get what i'm saying.

Xeno Goku is pretty much composite Goku up until the battle with Beerus,but with alot of twist and turns in power.

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ArcReactor

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#205  Edited By ArcReactor

From Given feats and techniques, it looks to me like Xeno Goku would completely annihilate entire Saint Verse let alone Pegasus Seiya.

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Chaos239

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Xeno Goku collapsed the Multiverse by powering up.

He blinks

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ArcReactor

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#207  Edited By ArcReactor

I just read the previous page and LOL at all the Seiya wankers, do they even know how fast Xeno Goku is? He Speed blitzed someone who went through entire Universe in a very small amount of time, even surpassed concept of time at the end of the game. Speed was irrelevant to him later on.

These guys are now just insulting themselves.

Even keeping all his superior stats aside, he will outhax Seiya.

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mrx1122

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@godren: how is xenoverse canon to dragonball heroes?

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Godren

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@mrx1122: Because everything from Xenoverse is in Heroes.

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heretictroop

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No, he doesn't say that at all. Shura's already much-faster-than-light speed was unable to overcome Roland's precognition, so he needed to take the initiative and increase his speed to the point where he exceeds the initial expansion of the universe by raising his Cosmo to create a miracle. Actually, it's funny you should raise this point, because Shura actually suggests the complete opposite by saying humans are able to perform miracles rather commonly:
= This is the clip where Shura mentions his speed bursts were only for an instant
[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/zsojls.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/sepqmf.png[/IMG]

Reduction in half is just Excalibur being used in a slicing motion...

= Reduction in Half is a unique variation to Excalibur that has never been used again in the future.

Because if it's the former, you'd need to provide evidence that they defend against attacks at all, let alone attacks that are focused down to an atomic level. I'm not even convinced the actual barriers are capable of blocking such blows, and even if they could, nothing stops Seiya from simply shattering it with a Comet Punch.

= They defend against all types of attacks and have been known to displace matter all throughout the series.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@heretictroop:

This is the clip where Shura mentions his speed bursts were only for an instant

Neither of your scans indicate that Shura is only able to surpass light speed for an instant... He literally claims that's all he needs to do in order for him to intercept Roland's Guided Sword Strike. Prior to that he just states that Gold Knights far surpass the speed of light, and we've seen him use this speed to travel longer distances:

https://imgur.com/a/SEh0gQe

I've noticed you've been ignoring all points that pertain to DB's inconsistencies or lack of feats (unsurprisingly) so I'll go ahead and ask you for proof that Xeno Goku can exceed or even reach light speed in combat at all.

Reduction in Half is a unique variation to Excalibur that has never been used again in the future.

Wrong again:

https://imgur.com/a/VuHPQGy

Shura uses it without his Cloth after his fight with Roland, and there's nothing even remotely hinting at it being some unique variant that he can't use whenever he wants. Even Shiryu was shown using it multiple times during the battle with Face-less and Sigurd, to which Shura immediately recognizes the similarities and deduces that Shiryu also wields the holy sword Excalibur:

https://imgur.com/a/91a7XfT

They defend against all types of attacks and have been known to displace matter all throughout the series.

Prove to me that they can defend against atomic attacks or somehow block on an atomic level.

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stl9997

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#212  Edited By stl9997

Goku curbs, the fact is that everyone saying he would lose is ignorant of Xeno Goku's abilities

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Thedarkpaladin

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@stl9997 said:

Goku curbs, the fact is that everyone saying he would lose is ignorant of Xeno Goku's abilities

By all means, post some of these abilities and feats to substantiate that.

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SuperGoku17

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The thread with two of the most wanked animes.

Wow

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Bossmountain

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This is a spite thread in Xeno Goku favor.

Hate to say it but Multiverse collapsing>>>>>>>Atom level Destruction.

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Bossmountain

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@thedarkpaladin: has people mentioned before Goku tank that Haiki, and it is ridiculous to assume that attack that supposed to completely destroy a target physically and spiritual somehow doesn't destroy said target at Atomic level. Even the father-son Kamehameha was able to destroy Cell at a cellular level So a Haiki destroying an object at atomic level is hardly as farfetched as you're trying to make it sound.

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heretictroop

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Wrong again:

https://imgur.com/a/VuHPQGy

@ thedarkpaladinShura uses it without his Cloth after his fight with Roland, and there's nothing even remotely hinting at it being some unique variant that he can't use whenever he wants. Even Shiryu was shown using it multiple times during the battle with Face-less and Sigurd, to which Shura immediately recognizes the similarities and deduces that Shiryu also wields the holy sword Excalibur:

= yeah, but we also have instances of shura using an attack called “Excalibur” without the “reduction in half” part to make us realize that the two techniques are different. Which he doesn’t use in scaling againdt Shiryu or Shaka fight. Also, i’m not saying he can’t use it. I’m saying he doesn’t use it.

It’s like saying Kamehameha has similar AP to Final Kamehameha. Or that Ultra instinct Omen is similar to Ultra Instinct.

@ Neither of your scans indicate that Shura is only able to surpass light speed for an instant... He literally claims that's all he needs to do in order for him to intercept Roland's Guided Sword Strike. Prior to that he just states that Gold Knights far surpass the speed of light, and we've seen him

= i wasn’t saying it as meant to discredit the surpass light speed. I meant it that the “faster than the initial expanxn of the universe” was only for an instant.

Because there’s a big difference between ftl and faster than the initial universe expanxn.

@ Prove to me that they can defend against atomic attacks or somehow block on an atomic level.

= what? It’s common sense that the aura protects their entire body. You’re basically saying that an atomic destroying attack can destroy the corr of a planet if you only attack the outer parts.

You have to get past the outer coating first.

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Scotchbear

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So much dismissing of xeno Goku it’s unreal

People really refuse to admit that there is a single Goku who is op asf and stomps most ss characters pretty casually

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JOVIOLMA

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So much dismissing of xeno Goku it’s unreal

People really refuse to admit that there is a single Goku who is op asf and stomps most ss characters pretty casually

When someone post a Multiversal feat or anything proving that Goku would win, maybe we accept until now, users like you just claim a bunch of Bullsh't without evidence or scans to back up.

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heretictroop

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#220  Edited By heretictroop

@joviolma: some scaling from Demigra being 4dimensional plus

https://m.imgur.com/a/C9XQ3

- spatial existence

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/CTC2f

- reaching the real world. And controlling all space and time

Xeno Goku stomps, we’re now just posting to increase the salt

Goku Xeno fought a more powerful form of Demigra than the one shown above

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JOVIOLMA

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@heretictroop: The links are not working, is better you just post the scan

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JOVIOLMA

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#222  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@heretictroop:

@heretictroop said:

@joviolma: some scaling from Demigra being 4dimensional plus

https://m.imgur.com/a/C9XQ3

- spatial existence

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/CTC2f

- reaching the real world. And controlling all space and time

Xeno Goku stomps, we’re now just posting to increase the salt

Goku Xeno fought a more powerful form of Demigra than the one shown above

Forget about it, already open the second one, how this is even a feat prove Spatial Existence ? Demigra's power is simple transcend the space and reaching another world, and you will need to provide the context for me to know how he was doing it, and what he was using.

And the Xenoverse's scans are Nice and all but don't prove that he have spatial existence, only that he have control over time and space with Toki Toki's power and like @jman88933 said multiple times, most of his ''Multiversal'' feats was via Time vault.

And about the First one,is not a feat at all, and I'm not sure how this scale to Demigra.

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deactivated-6063b97152c69

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@joviolma:

Supreme Kai of Time said that if Demigra was caught in the DB Multiverse explosion, he would die.

That's why Demigra hid in the crack of Time. (I can actually provide scans if you like)

So much for Demigra being Multiversal lol. At least in Xenoverse 1, he's 100% not.

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heretictroop

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#224  Edited By heretictroop

Mira transcending time. Scaling to demigra; then to xeno goku

https://m.imgur.com/a/jZmzp

There’s actually a lot of proof of Xeno Goku being mulitversal.

The downplay posts above is the reason why most of us don’t post them. Coz downplayers give out their reasons, assuming they even make sense.

I’m just posting the evidence one by one. Don’t want to debate against closed minded dragonball haters. Just post in more evidence if they try to use failed logic to debunk said feat.

Xeno goku solos Saint Seiya.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

has people mentioned before Goku tank that Haiki, and it is ridiculous to assume that attack that supposed to completely destroy a target physically and spiritual somehow doesn't destroy said target at Atomic level.

Existence erasure isn't the same thing as matter manipulation/destruction. They're two completely different forms of hax. For example, Galaxian Explosion works in a similar manner to Hakai, which has been resisted and overpowered by Seiya in the past.

Even the father-son Kamehameha was able to destroy Cell at a cellular level So a Haiki destroying an object at atomic level is hardly as farfetched as you're trying to make it sound.

It's unproven and I don't think you're aware of the sheer difference in size between cells and atoms... Besides, Father-Son Kamehameha didn't specifically target the Cells, i.e., it wasn't focused down to a cellular level, but rather, was similar to a weaker form of atomization in which a state of matter is reduced to its smaller constituent units.

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JOVIOLMA

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#226  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@heretictroop said:

Mira transcending time. Scaling to demigra; then to xeno goku

https://m.imgur.com/a/jZmzp

There’s actually a lot of proof of Xeno Goku being mulitversal.

The downplay posts above is the reason why most of us don’t post them. Coz downplayers give out their reasons, assuming they even make sense.

I’m just posting the evidence one by one. Don’t want to debate against closed minded dragonball haters. Just post in more evidence if they try to use failed logic to debunk said feat.

Xeno goku solos Saint Seiya.

At least have the guts to tag me, LOL. No feat posted so far here proves Multiversal power for Goku, and stating that Mira transcends time is not proof of nothing though, in the Manga scans posted in page 2 he was struggling against a time based technique.

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heretictroop

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#227  Edited By heretictroop

@joviolma:

Yeah. Eeither the dragonball haters keep ignoring the evidence provided, or put up really high standards it becomes biased.

Enough evidence has been provided hat Xeno Goku stomps

@ Existence erasure isn't the same thing as matter manipulation/destruction. They're two completely different forms of hax. For example, Galaxian Explosion works in a similar manner to Hakai, which has been resisted and overpowered by Seiya in the past

= hakai can destroy anything

Matter/atoms = part of everything/anything

Hakai can destroy atoms

It’s simple logic

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Bossmountain

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@thedarkpaladin: "Existence erasure isn't the same thing as matter manipulation/destruction. They're two completely different forms of hax. For example, Galaxian Explosion works in a similar manner to Hakai, which has been resisted and overpowered by Seiya in the past."

I'm aware of that but the tie is a little different and just existence erasing. Tell Ty is not simply removing or erasing it's destroying. Hence the name Haikil is literally Japanese for destroy. Destroying an object to the point where it doesn't exist would definitely require destroying at Atomic level.

"Besides, Father-Son Kamehameha didn't specifically target the Cells, i.e., it wasn't focused down to a cellular level"

Loading Video...

You blind bro we clearly see Cells cells being destroyed literally right at :55

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JOVIOLMA

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@joviolma:

Yeah. Keep either the dragonball haters keep ignoring the evidence provided, or put up really high standards it becomes biased.

Make your case boy, you come here saying a bunch of Bullsh't and posting scans with statements that barely indicate Multiversal power, the only thing so far is that was stated that he transcend time, and in the manga was struggling against a time Based technique.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@heretictroop:

yeah, but we also have instances of shura using an attack called “Excalibur” without the “reduction in half” part to make us realize that the two techniques are different. Which he doesn’t use in scaling againdt Shiryu or Shaka fight. Also, i’m not saying he can’t use it. I’m saying he doesn’t use it.

You claimed that he never used the variant again, which you were mistaken. I'm still trying to figure out what your basis is for arguing that Reduction in Half is somehow different from the standard Excalibur to the point where it would have any relevance to Shura's own speed. The speed of Shura's Excalibur is completely dependent on the movement of his own arm; Reduction in Half is no different. The words "Reduction in Half" are really only mentioned when Shura or Shiryu attempts to slice a target in half.

It’s like saying Kamehameha has similar AP to Final Kamehameha. Or that Ultra instinct Omen is similar to Ultra Instinct.

The difference is, we know those attacks are fundamentally different from one another, whereas Reduction in Half hasn't shown any difference from the standard Excalibur aside from its use pertaining to cutting something/someone in half. Even if their AP was different somehow, I fail to see why that should affect the speed of Shura's arm swing in any way, shape or form.

i wasn’t saying it as meant to discredit the surpass light speed. I meant it that the “faster than the initial expanxn of the universe” was only for an instant.

Because there’s a big difference between ftl and faster than the initial universe expanxn.

Indeed. Shura is capable of much-faster-than-light speeds without needing to burn his Cosmo to its maximum in order to create a miracle and exceed in the initial expansion of the universe. Seiya creates miracles left and right without any issue all throughout the story, yet Athena makes it abundantly clear that in order to receive a God Cloth, you need to raise your Cosmo infinitely higher than what is required to create a miracle.

what? It’s common sense that the aura protects their entire body. You’re basically saying that an atomic destroying attack can destroy the corr of a planet if you only attack the outer parts. You have to get past the outer coating first.

No, it's not common sense when there hasn't been a single instance of the aura being shown or stated to minimize damage, let alone protect the body against attacks that are focused down to the atomic level. That would be unproven conjecture. An atomic attack can certainly destroy the core's atoms - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here by falsely equating the planet's core to a Ki aura which has no proven purpose aside from aesthetic appeal. Seiya explains that they target the atoms within an object anyway, so that point would be moot:

No Caption Provided

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

I'm aware of that but the tie is a little different and just existence erasing. Tell Ty is not simply removing or erasing it's destroying. Hence the name Haikil is literally Japanese for destroy. Destroying an object to the point where it doesn't exist would definitely require destroying at Atomic level.

I fail to see what having the name "destroy" would prove about the manner of which the attack operates. Are you saying something that is completely erased on contact isn't destroyed? They aren't mutually exclusive if that's what you're trying to say.

You blind bro we clearly see Cells cells being destroyed literally right at :55

I don't think you were able to comprehend the point, so I'll try to rephrase it:

Father-Son Kamehameha works similar to atomization (fundamentally different from Seiya's atomic destruction) insofar as being reduced down to smaller constituent units of matter is concerned. It doesn't operate by targeting the cells withing Cell's body and destroying them - thereby bypassing his material durability. Seiya does just that by directly focusing on the atoms instead of overpowering material durability and reducing a state of matter down to smaller constituents.

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JOVIOLMA

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@thedarkpaladin: I think that hetero something tried to tag in post 227 but failed though.

Off topic: What are you arguing at all ? Shura's attack name have nothing to do with his speed if this is what heter is trying to indicate.

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JOVIOLMA

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@jman88933 Just one question, Mira absorbed Toki Toki's power as well right ?

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Thedarkpaladin

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@heretictroop:

hakai can destroy anything

Matter/atoms = part of everything/anything

Hakai can destroy atoms

It’s simple logic

Hakai isn't shown to bypass conventional durability and target one on an atomic level.

@joviolma said:

@thedarkpaladin: I think that hetero something tried to tag in post 227 but failed though.

Off topic: What are you arguing at all ? Shura's attack name have nothing to do with his speed if this is what heter is trying to indicate.

That's the point I'm making. There's no proven correlation between the attack name and the speed of Shura's arm.
Reduction in Half isn't shown to be any different than a standard Excalibur anyway.

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Bossmountain

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#235  Edited By Bossmountain

@thedarkpaladin: "I fail to see what having the name "destroy" would prove about the manner of which the attack operates. Are you saying something that is completely erased on contact isn't destroyed?"

Yeah, the words aren't synonyms. I mean would you say that an object that was completely destroyed was erased?.. One can say there is technically a difference between being erased from existence and being destroyed to the point of non-existence are two different things

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deactivated-6063b97152c69

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@joviolma said:

@jman88933 Just one question, Mira absorbed Toki Toki's power as well right ?

He fused with Towa and absorbed the egg of Toki Toki.

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heretictroop

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@ No, it's not common sense when there hasn't been a single instance of the aura being shown or stated to minimize damage, let alone protect the body against attacks that are focused down to the atomic level. That would be unproven conjecture. An atomic attack can certainly destroy the core's atoms - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here by falsely equating the planet's core to a Ki aura which has no proven purpose aside from aesthetic appeal. Seiya explains that they target the atoms within an object anyway, so that point would be moot:

-= 8no, the core is not the ki aura, the planet’s surface is. You’ve got it all backwards.

Also, Goku’s barrier has been known to coat his entire body, like from poison seeping in. Nothing gets inside Goku’s atoms unless they destroy the barrier first.

@ The difference is, we know those attacks are fundamentally different from one another, whereas Reduction in Half hasn't shown any difference from the standard Excalibur aside from its use pertaining to cutting something/someone in half. Even if their AP was different somehow, I fail to see why that should affect the speed of Shura's arm swing in any way, shape or form.

= reduction in half is different from Excalibur in a sense that it’s faster than your normal Excalibur attack.

It’s also different from Pegasus Meteor Punch in a sense that it’s a single slash with better speed and AP, whereas meteor punch is a lot of punches that while it doesn’t move at speeds faster than the inixal expanxn of universe it makes up for in sheer number of attacks.

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JOVIOLMA

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#238  Edited By JOVIOLMA
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Thedarkpaladin

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@thedarkpaladin: "I fail to see what having the name "destroy" would prove about the manner of which the attack operates. Are you saying something that is completely erased on contact isn't destroyed?"

Yeah, the words aren't synonyms. I mean what you say that an object that was completely destroyed was erased?.. One can say there is technically a difference between being erased from existence and being destroyed to the point of non-existence are two different things

I'm saying that if an object is erased, than it is, by definition, destroyed as well:

No Caption Provided

Now that isn't saying something can't be destroyed by being erased, but if Hakai erases something from existence, it would classify as a form of destruction. Also, depending on the definition you choose, they actually are synonymous with one another.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@heretictroop:

no, the core is not the ki aura, the planet’s surface is. You’ve got it all backwards.

Also, Goku’s barrier has been known to coat his entire body, like from poison seeping in. Nothing gets inside Goku’s atoms unless they destroy the barrier first.

Well, you didn't mention anything about the planet's surface in your previous post, so I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at.

However, it's still a massive false equivalence fallacy at the end of the day. In order to reach the planet's core, you would need to break through miles and miles of solid crust and mantle, assuming you can't bypass that outer shell of material, such as Seiya's attacks tend to do when focusing on the opponent's inner atoms. Ki barriers are different from the auras, which is why I asked you for clarification at the beginning of the conversation... Barriers are rarely used in combat by Goku and they haven't held up against attacks on the atomic level before, nor do they have the durability feats to suggest they can't be shattered effortlessly by a Meteor or Comet Punch.

reduction in half is different from Excalibur in a sense that it’s faster than your normal Excalibur attack.

What proof do you have that Reduction in Half is faster than Excalibur? They're both reliant on the movement speed of Shura's arm.

It’s also different from Pegasus Meteor Punch in a sense that it’s a single slash with better speed and AP, whereas meteor punch is a lot of punches that while it doesn’t move at speeds faster than the inixal expanxn of universe it makes up for in sheer number of attacks.

This is also baseless speculation. Nothing confirms Excalibur, or any of its variants have higher AP or speed than God Cloth's Seiya's Meteor Punch. Excalibur was being countered by characters who are absolute fodder to Gold Cloth Seiya. Forget about God Cloth. Your comparison is like saying Trunks' sword slashes have higher AP than MUI Goku's punches. The speed of Seiya's attacks are determined solely by how fiercely he can burn his Cosmo. Acquiring God Cloth requires him to burn his Cosmo hotter than Shura did during his battles in Episode G: Assassin.

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Bossmountain

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wet@thedarkpaladin: please have some integrity and copy the entire thing. To put an end to something existence by DAMAGING it or ATTACKING it. So know your definition doesn't fly. Not to mention that freezer was physically damaged after tanking the Hakai so it obviously damasge the object

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

please have some integrity and copy the entire thing. To put an end to something existence by DAMAGING it or ATTACKING it. So know your definition doesn't fly. Not to mention that freezer was physically damaged after tanking the Hakai so it obviously damasge the object

I'm unsure at this point if you're deliberately being obtuse or you actually are having issues comprehending the correlation. The entire screenshot that shows numerous definitions is completely redundant. The fact is, erasing something from existence falls under the first definition of destruction because the victim in question's existence would be put to an end by the attack.

Holy hell... The fact that you need this explained is actually mind-boggling.

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#243  Edited By Bossmountain

@thedarkpaladin: So according to you atomic level destruction >>>>>>>> Being 5 deminsional >>>>>> being able to erases people from existence. Most would say that's Actually backwards but you seem to think this is a strong argument. So I'm not going to stress it.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@thedarkpaladin: So according to you atomic level destruction >>>>>>>> Being 5 deminsional >>>>>> being able to erases people from existence. Most would say that's Actually backwards but you seem to think this is a strong argument. So I'm not going to stress it.

Loading Video...

No, my point is that matter manipulation/destruction and existence erasure are two very different forms of hax that go about destroying matter very differently. Resisting one doesn't constitute automatic resistance to the other, regardless of which one you think is the better or more potent form of hax.

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Bossmountain

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http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Bluetrekking/Dragon_Ball_Hero_feats?comments_page=1

Consider that Goku scale to Demigra a guy who literally picks up a timeline consisting of 12 microcosms shatter's it and chucks it at the Hero and was even stated by the Supreme Kai of time to be powerful enough to destroy all of the infinite timelines and recreate them in his own image. And can manipulate probability so that his attacks are more accurate

.https://m.imgur.com/a/dl873

Or time breaker Bardock who casually destroyed multiple timelines during his fight with Mirai.

He is 5th dimensional at bare minimum.

This atom manipulation hack doesn't tip a the scales in Pegasus favor at all.

Even if you were right ..which you're not.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@bossmountain:

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Bluetrekking/Dragon_Ball_Hero_feats?comments_page=1

Consider that Goku scale to Demigra a guy who literally picks up a timeline consisting of 12 microcosms shatter's it and chucks it at the Hero and was even stated by the Supreme Kai of time to be powerful enough to destroy all of the infinite timelines and recreate them in his own image. And can manipulate probability so that his attacks are more accurate

.https://m.imgur.com/a/dl873

So wait, you're going to reference VS. Battle Wiki threads as proof of your point even though you're arguing that resistance to existence erasure constitutes resistance to matter manipulation, when even VS. Battle Wiki has them classified as two different forms of hax and states that resisting one doesn't grant automatic resistance to the other:

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1034804

Are you just cherry picking what you want to accept from their site and disregarding anything contradictory to your preconceived notions?

As far as Demigra's ability to mess with time is concerned, someone in this thread already explained that he was only able to do so after absorbing Toki Toki's powers and was threatening the multiverse through the destruction of a time vault. Not to mention, he also explained that Demigra himself wouldn't have been able to survive the destruction of the multiverse and needed to hide within the crack of time. All in all, it sounds like people are trying to scale Goku's raw power from Demigra/Toki Toki's time hax, which is inherently faulty. I'm not too familiar with DBH or Xenoverse, so if I'm mistaken here, please post the correct context.

Or time breaker Bardock who casually destroyed multiple timelines during his fight with Mirai.

Destroying timelines with raw power or some form of time manipulation ability?

He is 5th dimensional at bare minimum.

All I'm seeing is flawed assumptions to validate some half-baked idea of Xeno Goku being 5D, when there don't appear to be any direct statements or feats for him confirming it.

This atom manipulation hack doesn't tip a the scales in Pegasus favor at all.

Even if you were right ..which you're not.

Superior speed by actual feats and scaling + attacks that ignore Goku's conventional durability, unless you can show him resisting matter manipulation attacks, would suggest otherwise.

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Bossmountain

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#247  Edited By Bossmountain

@thedarkpaladin: "So wait, you're going to reference VS. Battle Wiki threads as proof of your point even though you're arguing that resistance to existence erasure constitutes resistance to matter manipulation, when even VS. Battle Wiki has them classified as two different forms of hax and states that resisting one doesn't grant automatic resistance to the other."

I wasn't arguing that, I was argue that the Hakai Technique can also count as matter manipulation since as the name suggest it destroys not just erase. You even need to have energy of destruction in order to use it.

Credit

"Destroying timelines with raw power or some form of time manipulation ability?"

Time breaker Bardock has no Time manipulation abilities..so yes He is destroying those timeliness and flying through them is all via raw power. And consider he did all this before achieve SsJ3 AND Mira did this before absorbing Towa And Xeno Goku is far above them in attack potency and speed.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1678062

Xeno Goku is Stronger than Both TimeBreaker Bardock and Mira and Giant Demon God Demigra, and fought on par with Demigra Makyouka, who was going to destroy the infinte timelines that make up the DBH mulitverse and "Real world".

He One-shot Gravy as a SSJ3 who is stronger than Demigra I mean you've seen his page :http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Son_Goku_(Xeno)

As for direct feats there is not much but if he can stomp Dudes that that are massively more powerful and haxed than Pegasus then why should he lose to Pegasus?........Atomic manipulation?

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heretictroop

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@ Well, you didn't mention anything about the planet's surface in your previous post, so I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at.

However, it's still a massive false equivalence fallacy at the end of the day. In order to reach the planet's core, you would need to break through miles and miles of solid crust and mantle, assuming you can't bypass that outer shell of material, such as Seiya's attacks tend to do when focusing on the opponent's inner atoms. Ki barriers are different from the auras, which is why I asked you for clarification at the beginning of the conversation... Barriers are rarely used in combat by Goku and they haven't held up against attacks on the atomic level before, nor do they have the durability feats to suggest they can't be shattered effortlessly by a Meteor or Comet Punch.

= I think what you’re trying to say is that barrier auras have small holes in them for atomic attacks to go through.

= an atomic level attack a very small attack that tatgets the atoms, thus ignoring durability.

= you’d have to prove that the barrier auras in dragonball have small holes in them for atomic level attacks to go through.

@ What proof do you have that Reduction in Half is faster than Excalibur? They're both reliant on the movement speed of Shura's arm.

- the fact that excalibur was used before, and it wasn’t that fast compared to reduction in half. Shura even says so himself, that he will get even faster.

@ This is also baseless speculation. Nothing confirms Excalibur, or any of its variants have higher AP or speed than God Cloth's Seiya's Meteor Punch. Excalibur was being countered by characters who are absolute fodder to Gold Cloth Seiya. Forget about God Cloth. Your comparison is like saying Trunks' sword slashes have higher AP than MUI Goku's punches. The speed of Seiya's attacks are determined solely by how fiercely he can burn his Cosmo. Acquiring God Cloth requires him to burn his Cosmo hotter than Shura did during his battles in Episode G: Assassin.

= I’m not talking about excalibur, I’m talking abt reduction in half, they are two different techniques. Has anybody fron Seiya and his friends ever encountered Reduction in Half before?

Reduction in Half is considered a miracle, and seems to be an all or nothing attack. It’s not something the Gold Saints just spam around. Definitely not something another Saint could just replicate out of the blue.

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@bossmountain:

I wasn't arguing that, I was argue that the Hakai Technique can also count as matter manipulation since as the name suggest it destroys not just erase. You even need to have energy of destruction in order to use it.

Hakai seems to act more like an erasure attack than conventional destruction through matter manipulation based on sequences from the anime:

Time breaker Bardock has no Time manipulation abilities..so yes He is destroying those timeliness and flying through them is all via raw power. And consider he did all this before achieve SsJ3 AND Mira did this before absorbing Towa And Xeno Goku is far above them in attack potency and speed.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1678062

Xeno Goku is Stronger than Both TimeBreaker Bardock and Mira and Giant Demon God Demigra, and fought on par with Demigra Makyouka, who was going to destroy the infinte timelines that make up the DBH mulitverse and "Real world".

He One-shot Gravy as a SSJ3 who is stronger than Demigra I mean you've seen his page :http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Son_Goku_(Xeno)

Yeah, from what I'm reading in that link, it appears the 5D evidence is pretty flimsy and got shot down numerous times by the staff over at Vs. Battle Wiki, including in that very thread. From what I can gather, a lot of the evidence there seems highly interpretive and doesn't serve as absolute confirmation of 5D power...

As for direct feats there is not much but if he can stomp Dudes that that are massively more powerful and haxed than Pegasus then why should he lose to Pegasus?........Atomic manipulation?

Becasue raw power doesn't always equate to an automatic win. If Pegasus is faster and can bypass his conventional durability, what exactly is stopping him from doing so?

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@heretictroop:

think what you’re trying to say is that barrier auras have small holes in them for atomic attacks to go through.

an atomic level attack a very small attack that tatgets the atoms, thus ignoring durability.

you’d have to prove that the barrier auras in dragonball have small holes in them for atomic level attacks to go through.

But you're the one who raised the argument about Ki barriers defending against attacks they've never shown the ability to defend against in the past. Why does the burden of proof fall on me, exactly?

Let's assume for a second that the barriers actually can defend against them. What exactly is stopping Pegasus from simply one-shotting the barriers with overwhelming power? It's not as though Goku has ever used them to defend against attacks out of Seiya's power range in the past, and quite frankly, he's only used them a couple of times throughout the entire series.

- the fact that excalibur was used before, and it wasn’t that fast compared to reduction in half. Shura even says so himself, that he will get even faster.

What does that have to do with the variation of Excalibur that was being used? It was simply Shura's own speed being unable to bypass Roland's precognition, which is precisely the reason why he needed to go faster and faster to overcome it. And since both Shura and Shiryu have used that variant a few times in Episode G Assassin pretty casually, without raising their Cosmo to its absolute maximum, I seriously doubt Reduction in Half automatically grants them the ability to perform at speeds that exceed the initial expansion of the universe.

I’m not talking about excalibur, I’m talking abt reduction in half, they are two different techniques.

And I'm asking you what proof there is of Reduction in half being fundamentally different from Excalibur aside from how its used? Reduction in Half is still Excalibur at the end of the day. Shura and Shiryu don't just say Reduction in Half like it's completely separate from Excalibur. They make it very clear it's just Excalibur being used in a certain manner, which is the reason they say "Excalibur" before saying "Reduction in Half". It's confirmed Excalibur is just Shiryu's right arm and it's attack speed depends solely on how fast he can move his arm.

Has anybody fron Seiya and his friends ever encountered Reduction in Half before?

I'm failing to see why it would matter? If Reduction in Half was as powerful as you're speculating, why didn't Shiryu use it when Sigurd was overwhelming him with much faster than light speed and power? Why was it that Seiya needed to come in and rescue Shiryu as well as defeat Sigurd on his own? The same Seiya who was a pathetic shell of his Hades arc incarnation and whose Cosmo was even weaker than Shiryu's after Sigurd was mopping the floor with him?

Reduction in Half is considered a miracle, and seems to be an all or nothing attack. It’s not something the Gold Saints just spam around. Definitely not something another Saint could just replicate out of the blue.

Shiryu replicated Reduction in half rather casually, even though he was never taught that move from Shura in the past.