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#151 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger said:

@caped_baldy: Stable Sentry was beaten up by Red Hulk and Human Torch and unstable Sentry ended up in a stalemate with WWH while it was WWH who should win against so unstbale Sentry. So sometimes unstable Sentry is too strong and sometimes stable Sentry is too weak.

That was Loeb's Rulk who had his absorbing powers to boot. Don't know about the Human Torch instance, is there any context behind, or is stated that that one is stable Sentry? Jenkins had him stomping Terrax without breaking a sweat, stalemate the void and one-shoting Attuma.

Well, when unstable Sentry pushed himself he did some impressive stuff and operated between the moon-planetary level range, so his fight against WWH isn't like an outlier or something, it is clearly noted that Bob holds back less when he starts throwing around his energy.

@atheistknowledge

''There are times where unstable Sentry ran away from Torch's fire and then times where he stalemated WWH and fought Thor and the rest of the Avengers, there are times where stable Sentry is shredding worlds while fighting Genis and times where he get's manhandled by Rulk or Hercules. Basically every writer has a different idea on how powerful they wanna portray him stable or unstable.''

Adressed that already.

I don't clearly remember if stable Sentry was the one who fought Genis honestly. Loeb's Red Hulk, and when he fought Hercules in Dark Reign he was constantly struggling with Void for control, he was pretty much unstable in Dark Avengers.

Loeb Rulk or not, he treated Sentry like a joke and i doubt he even used his absorbing abilities to do so if we go by what happened to Absorbing man. He was not unstable when he fought either Rulk or Hercules.

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#152 Edited by Caped_Baldy (3539 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: Sentry said that he was going to give all of his power to Creel. Rulk probably absorbed the energy-beams that Bob threw at him. I think that his happened when he was workin' with the Mighty A, and he wasn't stable there.

When he lost to Hercules he was with the Dark A's and Bendis has said that there was not even a moment where Bob had control of himself around that time. In the Dark Avengers comic he's constantly seen struggling with Void, so i wouldn't say that he was stable, given stable's Sentry feat caliber under Jenkins's pencil.

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#153 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: Sentry said that he was going to give all of his power to Creel. Rulk probably absorbed the energy-beams that Bob threw at him. I think that his happened when he was workin' with the Mighty A, and he wasn't stable there.

When he lost to Hercules he was with the Dark A's and Bendis has said that there was not even a moment where Bob had control of himself around that time. In the Dark Avengers comic he's constantly seen struggling with Void, so i wouldn't say that he was stable, given stable's Sentry feat caliber under Jenkins's pencil.

Considering how aggressively Rulk absorbs the energies of everyone he comes in contact with i doubt it. Again, nothing showed that Sentry was unstable there.

That would make Sentry unstable 100% of the time as long as he is with the Void, but in reality regardless of the nonsense that Bendis spews a stable Sentry to me is one that isn't mentally showing it, an unstable one is.

Jenkins wanted Sentry to be a reality warper, time manipulator, basically omnipotent, but writers intentions often don't reflect reality.

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#154 Edited by Caped_Baldy (3539 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge said:
@caped_baldy said:

@atheistknowledge: Sentry said that he was going to give all of his power to Creel. Rulk probably absorbed the energy-beams that Bob threw at him. I think that his happened when he was workin' with the Mighty A, and he wasn't stable there.

When he lost to Hercules he was with the Dark A's and Bendis has said that there was not even a moment where Bob had control of himself around that time. In the Dark Avengers comic he's constantly seen struggling with Void, so i wouldn't say that he was stable, given stable's Sentry feat caliber under Jenkins's pencil.

Considering how aggressively Rulk absorbs the energies of everyone he comes in contact with i doubt it. Again, nothing showed that Sentry was unstable there.

That would make Sentry unstable 100% of the time as long as he is with the Void, but in reality regardless of the nonsense that Bendis spews a stable Sentry to me is one that isn't mentally showing it, an unstable one is.

Jenkins wanted Sentry to be a reality warper, time manipulator, basically omnipotent, but writers intentions often don't reflect reality.

And nothing showed that he was stable either. Around that time he was working with the Avengers as i mentioned, and his behauvior wasn't stable at all. Rulk said that he absorbed energy out of Uatu and Thor, and there's was nothing agressive about that, he just stood there close to them.

Not really. Bob had a pretty nice control over the Void until he came in contact with Norman, and had to kill and all that jazz. He was seen constantly strugglin' in that time, even going as far as don't wanting to get out of his room because of fear.

I'm not talking about writer's intentions, but his feats. He fodderized Terrax without effort and stalemated someone as physically imposing as the Void, who should by obvious reason be above Red Hulk and Hercules.

Sentry writed by Jenkins was so stable that he made a clever strategy to trick the Void into believing that he was trapped into his tower, and also didn't gave a crap about how he was the other side of the coin, whereas unstable Sentry has shown many times that when someone says ''Void'', he goes funky crazy about it just like in Secret invasion when he had a mental breakdown or when Emma told him in Dark Reign that he was the Void; the guy went flying to Saturn to cry about it.

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#155 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge said:
@caped_baldy said:

@atheistknowledge: Sentry said that he was going to give all of his power to Creel. Rulk probably absorbed the energy-beams that Bob threw at him. I think that his happened when he was workin' with the Mighty A, and he wasn't stable there.

When he lost to Hercules he was with the Dark A's and Bendis has said that there was not even a moment where Bob had control of himself around that time. In the Dark Avengers comic he's constantly seen struggling with Void, so i wouldn't say that he was stable, given stable's Sentry feat caliber under Jenkins's pencil.

Considering how aggressively Rulk absorbs the energies of everyone he comes in contact with i doubt it. Again, nothing showed that Sentry was unstable there.

That would make Sentry unstable 100% of the time as long as he is with the Void, but in reality regardless of the nonsense that Bendis spews a stable Sentry to me is one that isn't mentally showing it, an unstable one is.

Jenkins wanted Sentry to be a reality warper, time manipulator, basically omnipotent, but writers intentions often don't reflect reality.

And nothing showed that he was stable either. Around that time he was working with the Avengers as i mentioned, and his behauvior wasn't stable at all. Rulk said that he absorbed energy out of Uatu and Thor, and there's was nothing agressive about that, he just stood there close to them.

Not really. Bob had a pretty nice control over the Void until he came in contact with Norman, and had to kill and all that jazz. He was seen constantly strugglin' in that time, even going as far as don't wanting to get out of his room because of fear.

I'm not talking about writer's intentions, but his feats. He fodderized Terrax without effort and stalemated someone as physically imposing as the Void, who should by obvious reason be above Red Hulk and Sentry.

Sentry writed by Jenkins was so stable that he made a clever strategy to trick the Void into believing that he was trapped into his tower, and also didn't gave a crap about how he was the other side of the coin, whereas unstable Sentry has shown many times that when someone says ''Void'', he goes funky crazy about it just like in Secret invasion when he had a mental breakdown.

Let's just agree to disagree, since this is going off topic.

Anyway i don't prescribe to the Sentry wank and there is more then enough evidence to support my claims.

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#156 Edited by Caped_Baldy (3539 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: Man, i'm not wanking him at all. I'm just taking into account Sentry's mind portrayal over Mighty Avengers and Dark Avengers compared to the stable Sentry Jenkins wrote. It's like comparing a guy with a serious schizophrenia case with Blaise Pascal.

Wanking Sentry would be saying that he beat MM therefore he's multiversal like some users would.

I mean, you can't compare a Sentry that was scared of his own shadow like in DR, to this guy:

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But let's just agree to disagree then.

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#157 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: Man, i'm not wanking him at all. I'm just taking into account Sentry's mind portrayal over Mighty Avengers and Dark Avengers compared to the stable Sentry Jenkins wrote. It's like comparing a guy with a serious schizophrenia case with Blaise Pascal.

Wanking Sentry would be saying that he beat MM therefore he's multiversal like some users would.

I am not saying you are wanking him i am saying i don't prescribe to the wank of Sentry and by that i mean i don't see Sentry above SS, let alone the multiversal wank, that's a whole new batch of nonsense.

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#158 Posted by Caped_Baldy (3539 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge said:

@caped_baldy said:

@atheistknowledge: Man, i'm not wanking him at all. I'm just taking into account Sentry's mind portrayal over Mighty Avengers and Dark Avengers compared to the stable Sentry Jenkins wrote. It's like comparing a guy with a serious schizophrenia case with Blaise Pascal.

Wanking Sentry would be saying that he beat MM therefore he's multiversal like some users would.

I am not saying you are wanking him i am saying i don't prescribe to the wank of Sentry and by that i mean i don't see Sentry above SS, let alone the multiversal wank, that's a whole new batch of nonsense.

I don't see him above SS either. Fair enough.

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#159 Posted by Spartan101 (4449 posts) - - Show Bio
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#160 Posted by Lvenger (36266 posts) - - Show Bio
@lvenger said:

@atheistknowledge: Huh you think the Sentry in WWH was above Gladiator? I don't know, as much as I've been convinced by Ghost that Gladiator isn't what he's cracked up to be, I'm not sure if I put Sentry above Gladiator. I still think Kallark could give a similar, if not greater challenge to WWH alone even if he has little chance of winning.

No hero there could even hope to make Sentry flinch, he was unleashing power that engulfed the city and with his attacks he was doing clear visible damage to Hulk, literally scrapping his flesh. I don't think Gladiator could have done that or posed as much of a threat to everyone there, the more i think about the fight the more i realize that the Sentry that fought WWH was in one of his best showings, up there with his fight with Genis and the Collective. At least i strongly think this was Pak's intention, i really don't see hime sweating details like "this Sentry was super weak because he was unstable"(especially considering we know how highly he thinks of WWH and what he was suppose to do to Sentry in the original script), nah this was an extremely powerful Sentry that would have killed everyone and busted Earth if WWH hadn't stopped him, as Pak himself even noted.

I will say this Sentry is extremely inconsistent so i personally don't take the character as a whole, but based on his specific showings. To me the Sentry that fought WWH is above Gladiator, other stable and unstable showings of him might not be, if you get my point.

Well let's acknowledge that there were almost no heavy hitters around or had not been previously weakened by the Sakaar collars. Engulfing the city is a no-no for Gladiator but I could see him doing damage to Hulk based on his striking power. Even discarding the high end planet busting Kallark still has some solid striking feats which do indicate I mean Sentry's moon busting feat is a one off and his so called 'planet shedding' energies released in his fight with Photon are so exaggerated and given more meaning than they possess that it shows how many people are willing to accept something on blind faith. I don't disagree that it wasn't one of Sentry's best showings either, I've often argued for it on here despite the insistence and protests otherwise that this was an unstable weakened Sentry who took on WWH.

Nonetheless you're at least using rational logic to justify yourself, which few Sentry fans ever use when debating how powerful he is. I don't necessarily agree fully but I understand that some of Sentry's showing do eclipse Gladiator's, at least in energy projection from the WWH fight. It's just a matter of whether the Sentry that fought WWH was at his best which we do think so.

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#161 Posted by Lvenger (36266 posts) - - Show Bio

Gladiator is overrated. People always say he is above Superman because he is a planetbuster even tho he has only one feat of busting the planet which is incredibly inconsistent. He does not operate on planetbusting level. Hell sometimes it is hard to say does he even operate on planetary level but consistency shows that he is not a planetbuster.

Well I never found him above Superman even when I believed in the legitimacy of the planet busting showing. Glads only ever had striking power and heat vision over Superman, everything else went to the real Man of Steel. Are you saying that because of your beliefs though or because of what GhostRavage has brought up re. Gladiator's real potential? :P

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#163 Posted by Battle123axe (8849 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: yeah, if I'm not wrong, he's basically pulling off a feat that equates to him lifting all of earths atmosphere++

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#164 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio
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#165 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:
@atheistknowledge said:
@lvenger said:

@atheistknowledge: Huh you think the Sentry in WWH was above Gladiator? I don't know, as much as I've been convinced by Ghost that Gladiator isn't what he's cracked up to be, I'm not sure if I put Sentry above Gladiator. I still think Kallark could give a similar, if not greater challenge to WWH alone even if he has little chance of winning.

No hero there could even hope to make Sentry flinch, he was unleashing power that engulfed the city and with his attacks he was doing clear visible damage to Hulk, literally scrapping his flesh. I don't think Gladiator could have done that or posed as much of a threat to everyone there, the more i think about the fight the more i realize that the Sentry that fought WWH was in one of his best showings, up there with his fight with Genis and the Collective. At least i strongly think this was Pak's intention, i really don't see hime sweating details like "this Sentry was super weak because he was unstable"(especially considering we know how highly he thinks of WWH and what he was suppose to do to Sentry in the original script), nah this was an extremely powerful Sentry that would have killed everyone and busted Earth if WWH hadn't stopped him, as Pak himself even noted.

I will say this Sentry is extremely inconsistent so i personally don't take the character as a whole, but based on his specific showings. To me the Sentry that fought WWH is above Gladiator, other stable and unstable showings of him might not be, if you get my point.

Well let's acknowledge that there were almost no heavy hitters around or had not been previously weakened by the Sakaar collars. Engulfing the city is a no-no for Gladiator but I could see him doing damage to Hulk based on his striking power. Even discarding the high end planet busting Kallark still has some solid striking feats which do indicate I mean Sentry's moon busting feat is a one off and his so called 'planet shedding' energies released in his fight with Photon are so exaggerated and given more meaning than they possess that it shows how many people are willing to accept something on blind faith. I don't disagree that it wasn't one of Sentry's best showings either, I've often argued for it on here despite the insistence and protests otherwise that this was an unstable weakened Sentry who took on WWH.

Nonetheless you're at least using rational logic to justify yourself, which few Sentry fans ever use when debating how powerful he is. I don't necessarily agree fully but I understand that some of Sentry's showing do eclipse Gladiator's, at least in energy projection from the WWH fight. It's just a matter of whether the Sentry that fought WWH was at his best which we do think so.

I don't see him doing the same damage as Sentry, literally scrapping Hulks flesh of him. Trust me i know of the nonsense revolving Sentry and especially the exaggeration of his fight with Genis, the fight is filled with context often disregarded. To me Sentry is below Surfer, but what he did to WWH whether it was his best showing or not was more impressive then what i can see Gladiator doing.

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#166 Edited by christianrapper (6008 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge said:

@christianrapper: None of their "air attacks" can hurt him, Hyperions couldn't even hurt regular Hulk and Gladiators hurt a weakened Hulk and flying faster then someone is meaningless when the both of them are gonna engage him in physical combat and lose. BTW where are those Hyperion speed feats? This is like the 10th time i ask you this, you keep bringing it up without anything to back it up with.

i would normally respond to you, but then i realzed that i don't have to do it. just take what i said in the other 37 threads recently created just like this; rearrange them and you will have a fresh argument.

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#167 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge said:

@christianrapper: None of their "air attacks" can hurt him, Hyperions couldn't even hurt regular Hulk and Gladiators hurt a weakened Hulk and flying faster then someone is meaningless when the both of them are gonna engage him in physical combat and lose. BTW where are those Hyperion speed feats? This is like the 10th time i ask you this, you keep bringing it up without anything to back it up with.

i would normally respond to you, but then i realzed that i don't have to do it. just take what i said in the other 37 threads recently created just like this; rearrange them and you will have a fresh argument.

I don't think i have seen a worse answer in all my time on comicvine. You are a waste of time.

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#168 Posted by christianrapper (6008 posts) - - Show Bio

@christianrapper said:
@atheistknowledge said:

@christianrapper: None of their "air attacks" can hurt him, Hyperions couldn't even hurt regular Hulk and Gladiators hurt a weakened Hulk and flying faster then someone is meaningless when the both of them are gonna engage him in physical combat and lose. BTW where are those Hyperion speed feats? This is like the 10th time i ask you this, you keep bringing it up without anything to back it up with.

i would normally respond to you, but then i realzed that i don't have to do it. just take what i said in the other 37 threads recently created just like this; rearrange them and you will have a fresh argument.

I don't think i have seen a worse answer in all my time on comicvine. You are a waste of time.

awwe., you are angry because someone thinks that your fictional favorite character can't beat hyperion and gladiator. of course, you wouldn't get it. the point was that this battle has been done a million times. you are crying and whining in 2 or 3 other threads just like this one.

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#169 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

i would normally respond to you, but then i realzed that i don't have to do it. just take what i said in the other 37 threads recently created just like this; rearrange them and you will have a fresh argument.

So you would just regurgitate the same textual dysentery you always post? I wonder what's your thought process here... Like, how did you come to the conclusion repeating the same shit over and over would somehow make it less shit. I mean, it's still shit.

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#170 Edited by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@christianrapper said:
@atheistknowledge said:
@christianrapper said:
@atheistknowledge said:

@christianrapper: None of their "air attacks" can hurt him, Hyperions couldn't even hurt regular Hulk and Gladiators hurt a weakened Hulk and flying faster then someone is meaningless when the both of them are gonna engage him in physical combat and lose. BTW where are those Hyperion speed feats? This is like the 10th time i ask you this, you keep bringing it up without anything to back it up with.

i would normally respond to you, but then i realzed that i don't have to do it. just take what i said in the other 37 threads recently created just like this; rearrange them and you will have a fresh argument.

I don't think i have seen a worse answer in all my time on comicvine. You are a waste of time.

awwe., you are angry because someone thinks that your fictional favorite character can't beat hyperion and gladiator. of course, you wouldn't get it. the point was that this battle has been done a million times. you are crying and whining in 2 or 3 other threads just like this one.

No i am asking you for the 15th time to give me feats of Hyperion combat speed or any speed. You are trying to move the goal post but that wont work. Whether Hulk beats Hyperion or Gladiator is irrelevant atm i want you to show me speed feats from Hyperion that makes him untouchable by Hulk. Because you spout this same nonsense with the same characters(that have no actual speed feats) over and over. So the problem is you don't have them you don't know them, you spout the same diatribe in every thread you think every character that in any shape or form resembles Superman can beat characters like Hulk or Thor or anyone other that doesn't resemble him, that's basically it. That's your entire train of thought and it's quite frankly hilarious but more importantly massively flawed as evident to anyone with common sense.

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#171 Posted by popples1 (57 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Hyperion and Gladiator

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#172 Edited by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn:

Maybe "hurt" was too strong of a word, but he clearly caused him pain with his heat vision. And I wouldn't call that "overpowering". HypeCarrion was pretty busy boasting and didn't pay attention to anything happening around him, so he got caught off guard and off-balance. Besides, Hype was throwing Thor and Carol around like ragdolls and literally laughing at their attacks, as well as one-shotting Iron Man's armour with heat vision. This incident is clearly a good showing for Hyperion.

Why... The only thing he did was "Raaah" with a face so indifferent to the situation it is painfully obvious he didn't do shit to Hulk in the instance, even more so when that particular Hulk "Raaaah"s for no apparent reason. Hulk INDEED overpowered him considering he flat out grounded him and Hyperion couldn't do anything about it, for someone who supposedly has planetary strength to the point he's allegedly stronger than World Breaker Hulk, given busting a planet is inferior to moving one, the feat is pretty damn solid. I mean, when you're fighting an extremely stronger foes you can't even move him while attacking him... In fact, now that you're mentioning Carol, she was also able to put him on his knees with a single punch after Hulk grounded him.

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This is worth the mention because the same character, namely Ms. Marvel couldn't fathom into even punching Hulk in a way he actually felt it, under an incarnation exponentially weaker than the one used here, who also holds back and barely has any feats to put him above other incarnations in general, not even Professor Hulk. To give you a better picture about what i'm talking about, she was 100% unable to even make a scratch on Hulk as Doc Green even after she discharged a very angrily delivered chain of blows on his face and proceed to be one shot'd by Hulk into orbit, which also is greater than what Hyperion did in Superior Spider-Man Team-Up #1...

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That's how you deal and completely trash someone who isn't on your league and he treated Hyperion EXACTLY like Hyperion treated Carol in the instance. Moreover, regarding Iron Man's armor getting one shot'd, the gold and black armor couldn't be more useless in front of other armors, i'm sorry. I mean, Hulk one shot'd a Hulkbuster, that took a big dump on Iron Man's gold and black armor, when his anger levels couldn't have been lower and it was actually confirmed on panel during A+X #7.

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Needless to say, Hulk stomping the shit out of a Hulkbuster who proved to be superior to the same Iron Man that Hyperion one shot'd with his heat vision (which also happened to be just the armor instead of Tony as well), within a SINGLE HIT and when his anger levels were at the very bottom is indeed much more impressive, even more so when Hyperion was controlled by a character that didn't want him to restrain his powers. Also, he didn't laugh off their attacks, they were initially trying to contend with him without harming him, then Thor struck him with lightning and made him claim "Even though you can kill me, would you kill an Avenger?" which implies he was actually harmed by the lightning, not to mention Carol putting him on his knees.

The incident is a good showing, but nothing helpful against Hulk, sorry.

As for their first fight, there was nothing there that could say that Hulk was superior to Hype. He just bloodied his lip with a punch, then Hype send him flying with heat vision, then they echanged some blows and then Hulk transformed back into Banner. Not much to go by, tbh.

The only thing that was shown is that Hyperion couldn't harm Hulk whereas someone who survived unscathed by being squashed between 2 planets was easily harmed by Hulk. The instance also shows a Hulk that doesn't have the same access to his anger and strength as Green Scar, being completely fine fighting this Hyperion. Enough to go by, for Hulk.

Btw, funny you should mention Corvus Glaive's atom-slicing weapon. Let us look at the scans again.

I wonder why though...

Sorry 'bout the russian text tho, bit it's not like the text actually matters here. On a first scan we see that Corvus cuts Hulk's skin without even trying, just by slightly moving his... spear, I suppose, near his throat. On the second we see that he actually strikes Hyperion with the same spear with effort, and despite that it should have cleaved Marcus in half, it gets stuck in his skin, and as the next scans show, leaves only a slight cut. Also worth of mentioning that Hyperion pulled the spear off himself by the edge, clearly with effort, and still only recieved minor cuts. Point is: Glaive cuts Hulk's skin casually, and if he tried to actively strike Hulk, he would have sliced him apart, yet when he striked Hype with the intent to kill, it didn't do much harm. Speaks volumes about Marcus' durability.

I'm sorry, but given the fact the text is in Russian you didn't actually read what Corvus stated when he was cutting Hulk. Corvus stated Hulk's skin was thick when doing so, noting that his skin is harder to cut than it looks whereas he didn't stated anything remotely close to Hyperion, in fact, he didn't state anything at all besides boasting about just how easily he's making Hyperion suffer. Moreover, all this overthought explanation is a reaching attempt mate, there isn't a single solid proof that supports the spear somehow getting stuck inside Hyperion chest or sides. Moreover, i wouldn't consider bleeding a pretty significant amount of solar energy as it was shown to be "minor injury" much less when he could barely stand up when he cleaved the damn spear through his chest.

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That's what Corvus stated about Hulk's skin and there's nothing indicating he was exerting himself and from the looks of it and the fact he's using 2 hands to do it makes me think he was actually making pressure on Hulk's neck in order to cut him, hence why he stated his skin was super dense to begin with. Anyways, back to Hyperion's point, he was INDEED harmed by the damn weapon to the point he fell on the ground into a KO after he incinerated Corvus, not only that but also that he was TRYING to take the weapon from a point that had better grip and possibly didn't have an atom-slicing edge like Hulk's end had.

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So in fact, Hyperion DID NOT grabbed the weapon from the cutting edge and only tried to pull it out but failed in doing so and he still had it completely through his chest by the time he managed to attack Corvus with his atomic vision and this was blatantly pictured in the issue, furthermore, in the next scan he's CLEARLY holding the damn thing from the stick and not from the edge.

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So yeah, that part of your argument is reaching of the highest degree and i do not agree with almost anything in that paragraph, you also left out very important dialogue that strengthen more about Hulk's point that it does to Hyperion, when in reality Hyperion was going to die by those "simple cuts" Corvus was delivering to him.

I looked up for the scans of full battle and I found them. Here. And what we see here is Hulk not harming Gladiator with his physical strength before Glads almost fries his own brain and gets chucked into a reactor, heavily weakening him. Hulk's durability was in a flux, alright, but the only physical attack Gladiator used on Hulk was an annoyed punch. He wasn't even trying. Then Kallark tore him open with heat vision, and then the rest happened. Hulk didn't manage to hurt full-power Gladiator here, hell, he was beating on Glads when he was both seriously weakened and already KOed.

Hulk was indeed harming Gladiator, his suit was all ripped and cut, his face bruised with scratches and ultimately landed on Earth from outer space and he was indeed phased. The same can be said about Hulk, the only thing you MUST take into account is that Hulk was weakened and Gladiator wasn't till Hulk used his heat vision against him. The only thing that instance shows is that Hulk can go toe to toe with Gladiator even when he's weakened. I still don't understand why are we talking about this instance though, it only helps Hulk to be honest.

By the same token, a fully powered Gladiator couldn't harm a weakened Hulk until he used his heat vision.

Makes sense. And I kinda forgot they had 1/4 of Phoenix Force at that point. However, Thor was several times shown to be physically outmatched by Phoenixes, like when Cyclops effortlessly stopped his hammer swing:

Several times? I wonder how many times he was shown to be inferior, because he soloed one of them with 1/5 of the Phoenix Force and fought extensively against 2 of them when having 1/4 of the Phoenix Force each and fought evenly against one of them with 1/5 of the Phoenix Force and beat the Phoenix Force itself whereas Gladiator just entered the battlefield to be beaten into a pulp and causing no damage whatsoever to any of them when they had 1/5 of the Phoenix Force in the SOLE ISSUE he was remotely relevant during the story arc.

Anyways, you keep mentioning this hammer stop, will you ignore the fact Cyclops was amped by a PSIONIC entity that gives the wielder telekinesis, telepathy, molecular manipulation and much more? The fact he stopped it with his finger without even touching the hammer, let alone his hand releasing radiant energy and given other feats extremely unlikely for it to be a "strength" feat, but more about the haxer part of their powerset. Regardless, Thor stomped Emma, Gladiator didn't harm anyone.

And you know what else is good? Base Cyclops has the strength of normal human. Base Namor and Colossus are strong enough to contend with Thing. The Phoenix power was split evenly between them, so the boost to their stats should be equal. If Cyclops stopped Thor without trying, how powerful would be Phoenix'd Colossus and Namor?

I'm sorry, but there's nothing to support your speculation here, it doesn't matter if they didn't have Super Strength before, in fact, Namor was still the weakest of them all and the amp isn't "equally" powerful between them considering the Phoenix Force feeds off psionic power and their users are highly powered psionic beings like Jean Grey, Rachel Summers, Hope Summers and the Summers family so to speak so if there was anyone stronger than most it was Cyclops and Emma Frost who also happen to be the LAST 2 of the Phoenix Five by the end of the story arc whereas all the other were beaten.

Gladiator couldn't even harm Cyclops... Gladiator didn't harm anyone, why do you keep making this comparison, there's nothing positive about doing it. I mean, look at just how unbothered Cyclops is when he took a full blow from Gladiator right in the face whereas Thor literally hit someone hard enough to shatter her pieces up into orbit and previously harming Namor.

Yet he got up after that like nothing happened, tore off Rulk's arm, proceeded to wreck all of them and tank Thor's cheap shot without any harm. Besides, Thing is far above 90-tonner, but that's not the point.

He didn't show any harm because it was on his back and not in his face. Rulk is nowhere near Thor to be honest and Thing is indeed a 90 toner, even by his own admission.

If not for Scarlet Witch, they would all be beaten down hard. What is even more impressive is that Namor wasn't even fully concentrated on a fight.

HOW exactly does that scan proves anything remotely close to what you're stating here, in fact, Namor wasn't even there in the picture that is shown in the flashback whereas you can clearly see Hulk graciously grounding Emma Frost which is MUCH MORE than anything Gladiator did in his instance.

Yet she wasn't feeling his attacks (before he broke her, I mean) and then physically dominated him.

Really? I still think you're purposely ignoring what is shown in the comics. Look, it couldn't have been more blatant by this point considering she could barely stand up after Thor smacked her forcing her in turning fully into diamond form and still getting broke up into orbit... I mean... C'mon man! Take a better look at it.

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SURELY, she wasn't feeling nor getting harmed by Thor, yes yes... That's completely accurate.

If she was so far below Thor in power, her shards wouldn't have hurt him so bad and she wouldn't be even able to move him around. Yet she did.

She was indeed that much below Thor, but you don't need to be his equal to harm him, much less when you can exploit different sides of your power set to get an upperhand. I mean, 90 toners and 50,000 toners have punched Thor across a city block, you don't have to be a planetary threat to punch him around. Regardless, he still beat the crap out of her and you can't take that win from him as much as you want to prove losing and doing NOTHING to them is somehow equal as going toe to toe with one of them, sustaining a fight with stronger characters, beating the crap out of one of them and beating the Phoenix Force itself. Who cares if she beat him afterwards, Thor still did what Gladiator couldn't... Several times.

I have already proved that Phoenixes were comparable if not outright superior to Thor in physical strength. The fact that Gladiator was beating down on Colossus solo, then stalemating in beam clash agains Cyclops' beams (the same ones that knocked down Thor and were used to carve a lasting message on Rulk's skin), then physically fighting Cyclops and only then losing to combined assault of Colossus and Namor is very impressive compared to how Thor was faring against individual Phoenixes. Besides, Thor wasn't even hurting Namor, as I will prove below.

They were not, while having 1/5 of the Phoenix Force Thor was still stronger than them and his encounter with Emma and Namor proves this as he managed to harm both of them and go toe to toe without any harm with them, barring Emma's ending. Gladiator didn't harm Colossus and he was only shown to be punching him ONCE, he couldn't harm Cyclops either and i still don't understand why you keep overrating the instance, you're basically making things up right now...

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I mean, Cyclops couldn't be more unbothered by the punch... He's like "Oh look, a 4 leaf clover" or "That cloud looks like a man with a hat" while Gladiator is giving all he got on his face without doing anything to him. You're grossly exaggerating the instance and you're starting to repeat yourself to be honest.

Stalemating him means squat, it's not like his beams were that powerful given Red Hulk wasn't KO'd nor even close to be after he took it for a consistent amount of time and fell from high heights and he was just bleeding and ranting about it during Avengers vol.4 #28, nothing to suggest he's somehow knocking Thor down which honestly doesn't make sense.

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So now out of nowhere, the same beam managed to KO Thor? I'm sorry, even though Red Hulk is a high tier and stuff, he's not above Thor in durability and considering Cyclops beaming him was just that, i hardly doubt they would've left Thor off panel if he was KO'd, he even left the place as soon as he beamed Thor and there was nothing suggesting he was KO'd. I mean, is not like Thor actually took the same beams from a more powerful Cyclops who had 1/2 of the Phoenix Force and stood there recovering from the huge blast afterwards during Avengers vs X-Men: Round 10...

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Which then again just solidly seals the fact Thor is more durable than Gladiator, did MUCH MORE than him during the story arc and the same applies for Hulk, given he was actually completely fine during the entirety of Scott's fiasco while having the full entity of the Phoenix Force inside of him. Hell, do you know who took beams and punches that launched him from San Francisco to Sacramento from Dark Phoenix Scott? Hulk did and he just returned to the fight afterwards like nothing happened during Avengers vs X-Men: Round 12.

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Do you know who also took punches from Dark Phoenix Cyclops? Thor did and he was ALSO completely fine during the entire fiasco which is exponentially greater than Gladiator resisted. Thing keep getting better and better for both Thor, who is not in this fight and for Hulk, without even using a stronger version of him. There's nothing disproving this.

And by the way, I am not underselling Thor. I like him as a character and respect his power. But let's be honest, AvX as event treated Thor as a punching bag for pretty much every Phoenix there was.

Liking the character doesn't mean you're capable of underselling him. The only honest thing to say is Thor was one of the most relevant and important powerhouses in the story arc to the point he was one of the 3 considered to fight Phoenix Scott and Emma Frost in an apocalyptic hypothetical scenario along with Wolverine and Iron Man. He was beaten several times but that does not change the fact he operated beyond Gladiator for quite a significant gap, several times as well ultimately operating completely outside his league according to your view.

And then got his ass handed to him. Adressed above.

Sure, because getting your ass handed and not doing anything remotely close to relevancy is the same as beating the shit out of someone who will proceed to beat the shit out of you. C'mon now, it's not that hard mate.

There was nothing there that implied a prolonged fight. In aftermath neither Magik nor Colossus were visibly harmed while Thor was beaten silly and in chains.

Oh, but there was actually a pretty damn blatant piece of information deliberately stated by Spider-Man in the same scan we can see Thor getting beaten and is the fact the Avengers were out for 8 days in that mission and i'm fairly positive the fight was not short if the mission lasted that much time, much less when all the Avengers were also involved. Either way, here's the scan from Avengers vs X-Men: Round 8.

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I do not subscribe to the idea the fight wasn't prolonged if everyone in the team was beaten, ultimately Thor losing and that's when they retreated. 8 days mate, 8 days.

You mean in Wolverine & The X-Men? Because Namor hit him so hard he let go off Mjolnir, then took his attacks with no visible harm and then tossed Thor aside like nothing when he saw Prof. X.

Uh? That fight has 3 different issues, Wolverine and the X-Men #12, Avengers vol.4 #28 and Avengers vs X-Men: Round 8. I was referring to the latter but if we judge by your scans, Thor once again went toe to toe with Namor and he wasn't harmed in the slightest whereas Gladiator was turned into a pulp within a couple of punches. You also used the first scan from Wolverine and the X-Men issues and the others from Avengers, not that it matters though, just felt i needed to note it. Regardless, punching Thor's hammer out of his hand is not impressive and everyone and their mothers have done it. Gladiator, Hulk (3 times), a Frost Giant, Rachel Summers and then some more. That doesn't make Namor any more impressive, just common and Namor didn't threw Thor aside, he simply let go of his arm because Thor was grabbing him on his shoulder.

Beat?

It looks like he is only slightly phasing Phoenix, and even when he chucked his hammer into it, it just busted a planet and reformed afterwards, kicking Thor's ass all the way till the Moon.

Yes. Thor beat the Phoenix Force as Hickman himself confirmed after people starting asking him what's going on with this instance and yes, The Phoenix Force was KO'd and fell on a planet, feed off it and stomped Thor afterwards and he didn't beat Thor to the moon, it was on Earth, in the desert, unless you think Captain America and a bunch of people can stand without any oxygen whatsoever on the moon.

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The fact he got beaten afterwards is irrelevant as Gladiator did nothing close to this anyways.

Emma not hurting Hulk is impressive indeed. However, comparing Glads fighting against Phoenixes in straight up brawl with Hulk getting a cheap smash on Emma without even hurting her is a bit silly, don't ya think?

Yes it is, very very impressive, but you know what's greater than all of that, the fact he was also able to tank attacks from Dark Phoenix Scott with the full force including both blunt and optic blasts. Moreover, Hulk was also taking physically on Scott when he had 1/2 of the Phoenix Force as well and both Red Hulk and him were enough to give him trouble as shown during Avengers vol.4 #30...

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Unless you think fighting Cyclops this way is also cheap, taking beams from Dark Phoenix and also blunt force in punches sending him across a state, then you surely in denial.

However, you're already wrong here. Supreme and Sinister Hypes have clashed and, well... The good one won. Look for yourself.

How exactly am i wrong? Your scans said it for me. Earth-616 Hyperion/Squadron Sinister Hyperion proved to be stronger than Earth-712 Hyperion to the point it made Earth-712 Hyperion state his only chance is using his atomic vision to overpower Earth-616 Hyperion. Earth-712 Hyperion won because his vision is more powerful, but Earth-616 Hyperion was blatantly shown to be more physically imposing.

Aaaaaand also wrong.

I wonder why...

As you can see from the scans, they were evenly matched. Also, notice that narration says that the energy they exert is "planet-pulverizing" and that they manage to throw an attack (Hype) and block it (Glads) in nanosecond. The only advantage Glads had was skill, and even when he snapped Hype's neck, he didn't kill him - he regenerated later.

Evenly matched until Gladiator obviously moved faster than him, positioned himself behind him and broke his neck. Regardless, that's 1 of 2 combat speed feats Gladiator has and that's the sole and ONLY feat Earth-712 Hyperion has to put him remotely close to actual super speed. The feat is so inconsistent it shouldn't be taken into account given all the other feats showcasing a pretty contradictory representation of his speed.

Speaking of Thor (it's kinda sad we keep on using Thor as a measurement stick)... Sinister Hyperion was dominating him in physical fight, prompting Thor to resort to matter manipulation trick.

How on Earth did he overpowered Thor there? How could you stretch that situation to the point of claiming they even had a physical fight to begin with. Like, the only thing that happened is Hyperion surprised Thor, Thor evaded some rocks, Hyperion tanked a hammer throw, Thor gets hit in the face (no damage whatsoever), Hyperion beams him and Thor blocks with Mjolnir ultimately using a hax ability he doesn't have anymore to practically and easily deal with him. There wasn't sufficient blow exchanges to claim either had the upperhand. Regardless, Gladiator never fought Earth-616 who proved to be above Earth-712, the latter proving to be inferior to Thor as well.

Speaking of, surviving atom spitting while being in Microverse (where that Hype comes from) is an insanely impressive feat as well, probably on surviving-the-planet-exploding-in-your-face kind of impressive.

That actually impressive and i do agree with the analogy, which is very similar to Earth-13014 Hyperion and Hulk overpowered both, how convenient is that?

Wonder Man failing to harm Hulk sounds a huge lot like PIS to me tbh. Someone who had his power compared with Thor and Sentry, someone who faced Gladiator, Thor, Hercules and Ultron on many occasions, and can't hurt Hulk?

How exactly is this PIS if Hulk has done it twice already and Red Hulk as well did it. He was compared ONCE to Thor and doesn't have a single feat suggesting he's on par with him. He indeed faced Gladiator and Gladiator just punched him to the center of the Earth without harming him, Thor on the other hand beat the crap out of Gladiator on 2 occasions as Eric Masterson and as Thor Odinson. Wonder Man fought Hercules and never got an upperhand on him and don't even mention Ultron, he would walk all over the people in that paragraph. Hulk is very durable and that's very consistent with him, even more so when he was also taking on Hercules, Doc Samson, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Namor, She-Hulk, Hawkeye, Tigra, The Army and then some more at the same time.

Speaking of Hyperion vs Wonder Man, Sinister Hyperion owned WM bad:

Which then again is much more than Gladiator has ever done and ever did to him. Also, it is a weaker Wonder Man than the one Hulk fought, besides Gray Hulk took on him with the same power level as Earth-616 Hyperion and the West Coast Avengers at the same time. He's not that powerful besides a highly inconsistent claim about his strength compared to Thor.

Besides, good Hyperion's scuffle with WM barely lasted a page, and unlike Sinister Hype, he was definitely not trying to kill him.Same with Thor: he wasn't going all-out, like he did against Gladiator and his Sinister counterpart.

The problem is Wonder Man was stronger when he fought Earth-712 Hyperion because he had his ionic form up, which is the same form he had when he fought Hulk on the previously mentioned occasion. Thor wasn't going all out against him either, still isn't an excuse to need help to manhandle him. Sorry.

And then s'more Sinister feats, all done beyond casually: one-shotting Supreme Power Hype, who in turncasually wrecked Ultimate Thor;Doc Zero, who Sinister Hype acknowledged as the strongest foe he ever faced (meaning he was stronger than Supreme Power Hype), also gets burned to ashes. And yet you keep mentioning Hulk beating Sinister Hype. Let's look at this, ahem, "fight":

They barely even fight. And Hulk only KOed him due to Hype's enchanced senses, he himself acknowledged he can't hurt Hype physically.

Hulk beat him and that's empirically and factually correct. The fact Earth-616 Hyperion can't be harmed physically is part of his powerset not because he's somehow stronger than Hulk which by feats blows everyone here out of the water. Moreover, you keep citing that instance i never referred to, not to mention Hulk already proved to be stronger than him in a short clash.

I adressed most of that stuff above and proved why even Squadron Supreme Hyperion (superior to Sinister Hype) is not a pushover like you make it seem. Tho I failed to find the scans from Defenders #13, do you mind showing these? I'm geniunly curious.

You left key factors in expressing yourself. He managed to prove he was superior with his atomic vision, not his strength which was the sole thing he used against both Thor and Gladiator and didn't outmatched either, much less Hulk. Anyways, here are the scans.

Disclaimer: I'm going to crop and post only the relevant parts of the issue regarding both characters because the scans are shared with other characters fighting at the same times, after all, it was a fight between 2 teams. If you want the full scans, i can PM them to you. Also, the latter scan of the sequence is from Defenders #14, a direct continuation when the fight was over and it is just to show Hulk beat Hyperion as he's lying on the floor knocked out.

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So yeah, Hulk beat Earth-616 Hyperion, who by your admission is stronger than Thor, who also happens to be stronger than Earth-712 Hyperion, who also happen to be stronger than Gladiator because he proved to be stronger than someone he was equally powerful to, which means Hulk is also stronger than Thor because Thor admitted Hulk was stronger than him... Which means Hulk is stronger than everybody here. See? I can use ABC logic as well.

I never said that Hulk didn't progress in power. And the claim that he is strongest hero means nothing without feats supporting that. And Now! Hyperion stopping a planet is a better feat than any feat of Hulk (barring the planet buster in Dark Dimension, which was calced at dwarf star level, yet it was combined force of Hulk and She-Rulk, and Hulk was WB there).

Hickman CONFIRMED Hulk was the strongest Avenger and he created Earth-13014 Hyperion which means he's also including him in his equation. The feats he gained during World War Hulk, Heart of the Monster and other story arcs under Greg Pak's pencil as well as him seemingly lifting the weight of a star, as well as repelling a Exitar, as well a depleting the energies of an abstract being that was trying to hold him down, as well as tanking Thanos eye beams without any damage, as well as one shoting Thor, are ALL the feats you're looking for, Hyperion though, he moved a planet... Like Hulk didn't actually do that while freshly transformed in Tales to Astonish #88 which happened decades before becoming more powerful.

The fact you keep claiming "Gladiator's Confidence Management increased" or whatever is also implying you're not taking into account Hulk has actually become much more stronger and powerful and is indeed a change that is biographically confirmed by Marvel and has been consistently mentioned in his publication.

I was not being literal. What I meant is that being called the strongest character without feats supporting that doesn't prove anything.

So wait, you say Gladiator is Thor-level char, then say that WM is not, despite yourself mentioning WM battling Gladiator, just because of one low showing that placed WM below the rest of his showings of people like Thor, Ultron, Hercules, etc.? What?

He wasn't called, i think i was very clear he was CONFIRMED to be the strongest hero on Earth. It wasn't an statement, it was Marvel approval in confirming Hulk is the strongest hero to the point of putting the information in 2 different biographical entries overseen by the Editorial Team and Tom Brevoort.

Gladiator is a Thor level character, Wonder Man is not a Thor level character, Wonder Man didn't actually battled Gladiator but they exchanged punches and Gladiator couldn't harm him, but that doesn't mean Gladiator is not leaps and bounds faster than him, much more versatile and also arguably smarter while fighting, which propels him up there with Thor solely by that. I don't think it is a low showing if he's been CONSISTENTLY operating on that level.

The last part I can agree with. The "he didn't actually admit that" part while he freaking did is a pure speculation unsopported by anything.

Sure. You can have that. I just assumed he was playing smart instead of flat out claiming or implying he can't deal with Gladiator given just how easily he has dealt with more powerful people, let alone less powerful people also dealing with Gladiator.

Oh, I am pretty sure Hulk has a crapton of low showings putting him below planet level. I don't have time or will to find them, but I don't claim that Hulk isn't planetary because, say, he got beat up by Cap once. Or Wolverine. Or Spider-Man.

Low showings? Not really, he has some, not that much to be honest. As i said, his powerset is completely usable to justify him not operating at his highest all the time. However, sadly, after 2006 he has been beaten nor operated underneath his true power level but yeah, those are very low showings for him, like, doesn't even put him on 100 tons which makes them flat out idiotic to be honest.

Regardless, i'm not claiming either Hyperion nor Gladiator are street levelers and fighting equally with other 100+ toners isn't that bad. Hyperion for example has very good feats, just not enough to deal with Hulk, that's all.

As for Gladiator's low showings, I am not even sure where are you getting some of them. Glads owned Colossus:

How is that a bad showing if it was HIS CREATOR who also happened to have written most of his issues, was the writer of the issue and the true portrayal of Gladiator? Regardless, you're once again ignoring what is shown in the scan... Not only the exchanged several punches but the fact Gladiator lasted MINUTES in getting out which means he probably was KO'd as well or fainted along with Colossus. And if you want to know from where it comes from, is from Uncanny Avengers vol.1 #137.

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He lasted minutes and emerged from the rubble "slowly, painfully, relentlessly". That's hardly similar to what you're claiming by stating "Gladiator owned Colossus". He won, but the narration strongly implies it was close.

As for Canonball, that was a context-heavy situation. First, Kallark was toying with him for the most of the fight. Second, when he got serious and punched Canonball as hard as he could, Canonball absorbed his energy from a punch and redirected it back at Glads. Third, he did that in the exact moment Glads doubted himself. And fourth, the best one: Gladiator wasn't even KOed.

I don't see anything wrong with what i stated. Gladiator still lost and couldn't harm Cannonball and his invulnerability field can be overpowered if too much force is applied on the attack as he can run out of juice easily, it was actually stated recently during Deadpool vs X-Force #3 when he was fighting in the Civil War of the United States.

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Yet Gladiator's STRONGEST punch didn't come close in exhausting him like bullets and old cannonballs were doing. Also, if hit with enough force and in the right spot his field can be overcame as Tsung proved during X-Force vol.1 #109 just by kicking him in the jaw, something Gladiator while punching with his full strength could do.

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I don't care about Cannonball not achieving the KO or not, he didn't overpower the kinetic field and no, Cannonball is not 100% invulnerable has been harmed while flying at least 4 times by my count, he can also be overloaded with kinectic energy and his body starts to run out of juice, like it was happening after taking a lot bullets and going through some tanks.

Losing to Hulk? Wrong, and explained above.

The Gambit one was a pure PIS. Gladiator flew through a star once, so unless full deck of charged cards is equal to star's heat, that situation made no sense. Hell, he was still standing after Tyrants' blast, while similar blast KOed Surfer. Besides, was Glads really KOed by Gambit? IIRC he was just knocked down, and then almost killed Gambit until someone talked some sense into him.

Lost to Black Bolt? More like one-shot him. Yes, he was stunned, but that didn't lower his durability. And Glads also survived and quickly recovered from BB whispering in his ear.

You didn't explain shit mate. You're purposely ignoring what is shown in the scans while seemingly neglecting the fact Hulk was weakened the whole damn fight. Gambit's fight i would consider it to be a low showing but that's because i also don't see his cards anywhere near that level. However, that was also his creator who had him losing to Gambit. Tyrant's blast is cosmic energy whereas Gambit's is literal kinetic energy, which should apply for blunt force as well, just sayin'.

Oh yeah, War of Kings instance. I don't buy it just by the simple fact 60 toner Black Bolt was handling himself just fine against Gladiator physically and Gladiator needed White Noise's help to punch him like that. In fact, the instance works much worse on Gladiator's end than the other way around. As per Starblast #2, i've argued this before, he was taken out of the fight for quite a prolonged time to be honest. Anyways, here's what i posted previously and please ignore the tone.

So it is bullshit because you think too high of Black Bolt and too low of Hulk? No, the only thing that is a big pile of bullshit here is the fact you undersell Hulk's feat because Black Bolt whispered in Gladiator's ear during Starblast #2. Not only Hulk took a greater whisper back in Incredible Hulk's first annual, prior to any kind of power increment and was simply shaken by a couple of seconds before standing up again, but the fact Gladiator took the whisper and was out of the battle for some time and Quasar himself states so when he claims "He's back to make my life..."

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Either way, Black Bolt's whisper still affected him more and i don't know from where the hell you're bringing he was fine and dandy the next page consider this is what was shown.

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He doesn't look fine at all, hell, he was SO NOT FINE he didn't appear in any panel for like 5 more pages before Quasar claimed "He came back" meaning he was out of the equation at least to the point of making Quasar claim he came back and not "It didn't do nothing to him" or some other improbable statement.

Nah. Gladiator consistently fights planet busters, has one actual planet-busting feat, the narration of his fight against Hyperion said about pulverizing planets, not only survived a supernova, but also flew through the core of red star. His own son saw how he cracked moons and tore black holes apart, the agent of Living Tribunal says he can move planets out of their orbits and collapse stars.

You're stretching Gladiator's "consistency" considering he literally fights people nowhere near planet level on consistent basis and has lost to actual planet buster consistently as well. Hyperion has no freaking feats to suggest he has that amount of strength, Gladiator survived a Supernova ONCE and NEVER operated on that level again, the same as his planet busting feat. Flying through the core of a star is not impressive, much less when he's basically impervious to heat. Regardless, i'm not taking empty statements unless they are remotely corroborated either by biographical confirmation or on-panel evidence.

So the different writer is a good enough argument to disregard a feat? Nah. I have already showed statements confirming planet busting Glads. And his feats against other heralds only confirm this.

Of course it matters, even more so when you're arguing against Gladiator's creator and the writer who wrote MOST of his appearances as well, let alone Dan Jurgens who was also included as an artist and was completely fine in depicting him like that later on in Mighty Thor Vol.2. You're discarding KEY evidence about Gladiator's true power level. That's the only thing you've shown, statements, because the feats you're citing do not do justice to your claims. He can fight Silver Surfer physically and whatnot but still loses to Thor smacking him around or Hulk smacking him around, fails to remotely harm any of the Phoenix Five, Wonder Man and Annihilus with Hulk's strength and durability. Get trashed by someone who was easily beaten by Black Panther, fights toe to toe with Black Bolt physically and the list goes on and on... I'm sorry, but for the amount of appearances Gladiator has, it is pretty damn solid he's not on Supernova nor planet busting caliber strength wise.

Wrong. Adressed above. And since when scaling is a bad thing?

I'm not wrong and i'm starting to lose it because you seem to be purposely overrating his capabilities while underselling others and allegedly telling me i'm wrong. You didn't addressed anything, you twisted the context of scans and neglected relevant information to support the legitimacy of your claims as per scaling... IT IS INDEED an argumentative fallacy called "Appeal to Probability". ABC logic, unless properly supported in context, it's useless.

As for King Hyperion, he was infused with power-limiting nanites by Thunderbolt program. And before that he hanged with Blue Marvel. And before that he killed alternate Magneto, Thor, Hulk and Hercules. The fact that Earth-712 and another Hyperions were not enough to beat him is explained by the fact he is just that freaking strong.

He was not limited... The Nanites were a failsafe tactic if he suddenly went rogue on them and he himself states he needs to get rid of those nanites before they activate the Argonite they had within them during Thunderbolts vol.1 #153, not that he was somehow weakened all the time. I'm sorry, but you completely made that up. Alternate versions are useless, not to mention it happened all off-panel.

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So no, he was in fact completely powered up when he was fighting a depowered Juggernaut. King Hyperion's exclusive but let's overlook this right? That's what you've been doing all this time.

The fact 2 Hyperions couldn't handle him is because Hyperions are just that freaking weak. I mean, where are those "successfully" impressive amount of feats to support King Hyperion's strength, or any other Hyperion besides Earth-616, which then again proved to be stronger than Earth-712. Earth-13034 Hyperion, which was confirmed by Hickman to be weaker than Hulk strength-wise and was also overpowered on-panel, and was also unable to harm Hulk on-panel. Give me a break now.

Yeah, a glass cannon that was on a planet she violently blew up. Suuuuuuure.

Yes. A Glass Canon that got stomped the shit out of her by Thanos with one punch in Infinity #6 whereas Hulk literally laughed it off. On top of that she couldn't even deal with Proxima alone who was fighting Luke Cage on equal ground.

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Likewise, some Alephs during the Builder's War in Avengers vol.5 #19 whereas Hyperion, Hulk and even Shang Chi were easily ripping through them like the fodder they were. Do you know what's the definition of a glass cannon?

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The only reason why she wasn't harmed by the explosion was because she wasn't there to begin with, but i guess you completely disregarded that and the scan you posted is nothing more than a retelling of an old story that actually shows why and how the planet exploded during Uncanny X-Men vol.1 #166.

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She didn't even attacked the planet directly and she couldn't bust some ships in the same issue that were nowhere near a planet's size. She was easily manhandled by some of them as well. The only reason why the planet exploded was because the cosmic energy she used on the Union of Souls had a side effect on the planet and she clearly states so when she decides to teleport AWAY from the planet you falsely claimed she busted by raw power. I gotta admit that it feels really rewarding to flat out call you approach WRONG for the first time and actually be well supported.

Moreover, let's go ahead and ask for some feats, could you show me anything REMOTELY impressive about her durability without ignoring key situational factors of those instances?

Adressed way above.

Not really.

We're talking about different Novas. You talk about Sam Alexander, young and inexperienced Black Nova.

And I am talking about Richard Rider. Here's how their fight went: Nova was exausted and Glads - still kicking. And as a bonus: Gladiator also wrecking Nova Prime and some Nova Corpsmen.

I know we're talking about different Novas, i mentioned Alexander precisely because he did much more than Gladiator did during AvX and Nova Prime has no feats to put him above Hulk, much less when he failed to harm him when he was teamed up with Valkyrie, War Machine and bunch of others.

Actually, that's the only thing here not worthy of mentioning for reason you stated yourself. Lol.

Why? Because Vulcan is not a planet buster?

Oh, am I really?

Certainly.

Why not? Gladiator has nanosecond of reaction/combat speed, strength leagues above Hercules and FTL moving speed. He can blitz Hulk and diliver such ammount of strikes before Hulk can react, and each of these strikes would be superior to Herc's.

Yeah, and Hulk effortlessly tracked and reacted to Silver Surfer traveling at the speed of light and Gladiator attempting to BFR him at hypersonic speeds. Gladiator only has 1 single nanosecond combat speed feat and he has NEVER been able to replicate that to the point Brevoort himself states he doesn't have it. I don't know from where you're bringing Gladiator hits harder because he certainly doesn't and his instances against Thor and Wonder Man are enough to outweight his overrated planet busting feat.

Good points about Thanos. Not so good point about Hulk being more durable than this bunch. I have already explained how Now! Hype is more durable, why Glads is more durable. Thor... is a hard case, but the fact that he is BRB's equal, and that guy blows up planets and takes the explosions to face, must mean something. Not into arguing Thor tbh, not that well-versed in his feats.

Of course, because you're making a hell of a case for Hyperion and Gladiator. You haven't explained anything, you keep using other incarnations, twisting context and flat out making things up while ignoring what other characters did, like Hulk and Thor operating BEYOND everything Gladiator did during AvX. You haven't shown anything remotely relevant for Hyperion's durability to sustain such claim whereas both times they've fought Hyperion has been harmed, not Hulk. You're using ABC logic again, Thor has been harmed by much less than planetary explosions and so has Beta Ray Bill as per the last claim, that's painfully obvious at this point.

And you know, unless he was moving at mach 1 with star's weight on his back, he is not beating Hyperion's feat of stopping the planet. Explanation: our Sun, average yellow star, has a mass of 1.9E+30 kg. If Hulk carried that weight while moving at speed of sound (340 mps), his total kinetic energy would be 2.3E+35 kg. A little bit better than Hypes' feat. However, I am sure as hell he wasn't moving at that speed, not even close. Tho the scan of feat with context would be nice to see.

You're putting too much thought into it, on panel evidence clearly refutes this rather complex calculations you're bringing. They've fought and Hulk has been shown superior, in fact, this has gone as far as Hickman claiming he's the strongest of the bunch. I'm sorry, but i'll take Hickman's claims over your overly thought out calculations. I still don't see how pushing something makes you stronger combat wise than doing almost the same but simply by punching.

Hulk wasn't moving, but he was still combating.

So yeah, sun-lifting is not nearly as impressive as stopping an Earth-sized planet moving at 500000 mps.

Whatever you say Mr Nye.

Yeah, kinda. Point is, this feat beats every quantifieble Hulk's feat in energy output. Barring the planet blowing up in Dark Dimension, but that was a World Breaker Hulk and he was not alone. And I am pretty sure he won't be quick enough to go WB while getting pummeled by two foes with comparable/superior strength, especially with them not holding back.

Yup. You haven't shown anything remotely close to make such a claim besides ignoring the fact writer's don't go over this amount of calculations when thinking of feats and their word holds much more value than yours here. Completely ignoring the context of what they wanted to show, maybe the feats you're showing are scientifically better, but they are not according to what Hickman tried to show. You're putting too much on Gladiator, the guy barely has any feats comparable to Thor and Hulk and he consistently operates underneath them.

It's the fact that Hyperion killed Namor so casually that makes it impressive. Considering all the fights Namor was in, as well as his heat and radiation resistance, that is wildly impressive. And besides, Hype's heat vision have already caused pain to Hulk, one-shot Iron Man and even one-shot alt. universe Thor, who was equal to mainstream Thor:

But why though? Literally every single heavy hitter in the Avengers can do exactly the same without exerting themselves. Hyperion's vision is not heat, it's atomic energy extracted from the Sun. He has never been able to harm Hulk and you have nothing going on besides a "Raaaah" from a Hulk with a face clearly showing indifference towards it. I sincerely fail to see what on earth did Alternate Universe Thor did to be considered equal to Earth-616 Thor, i mean, literally all of them were inferior to their counterparts and Thor was wearing his classic costume and Thor has grown stronger from that point.

Nah, I just said that off the bat. However, I would disagree that Hulk is stronger than Thor. In classic days Hulk was literally stomped by someone who stalemated Thor (Godzilla), and Thor has fought Hulk with varying results many, many times. Sometimes Hulk won, sometimes Thor. However, I am pretty sure that Thor's high end feats eclipse Hulk's (busting an engine that dwarfed stars with BRB, beating Surfer, harming Galactus and Celestials, etc.). But that's not something I want to debate about, lol.

I can't believe you're actually going for the Godzilla instance. My freaking god, this is amazing. The issue was a joke and had no respect whatsoever to the characters, BUT Godzilla. I don't know how would you disagree if this has been confirmed biographically and on-panel as well, even Thor claiming so during Incredible Hulk Annual 2001 after he grounded him within 3 hits.

No Caption Provided

Now, what kind of double standards is that, because if we're going for highest end both Hulk and Thor are MUCH MORE POWERFUL than both Hyperion and Gladiator, even more so Kallark. Hulk busted a dimension, held a black hole open and was in an infinitely denser dimension for a prolonged time as Grey Hulk, Thor took an attack that would destroy 1/5 of the universe, why would you argue for Thor using him as a benchmark to claim he's inferior to Gladiator yet claim Hulk is inferior to both because Thor has higher end feats, on top of that while making a case for a nigh-featless character. That's blatant hypocrisy right there.

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#173 Posted by Sy8000 (34944 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage:

Thing is indeed a 90 toner, even by his own admission.

I think Thing's admission is wrong in that case...he has feats putting him way above 90 tons.

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#174 Posted by Sy8000 (34944 posts) - - Show Bio

Also I wouldn't say King Hyperion was more powerful than 712 when they fought. The two never actually got into an extended fist fight or did anything to suggest 712 wouldn't have wrecked if they did.

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#175 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: I still think he's a 90 toner by concept and even if he has feats that objectively are past that point and marvel's strength categories are kinda off, concept wise he's still much weaker than guys like Hulk or Thor. As per Earth-712 Hyperion, he would've been wrecked considering just how featless he is.

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#176 Posted by Sy8000 (34944 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: I still think he's a 90 toner by concept and even if he has feats that objectively are past that point and marvel's strength categories are kinda off, concept wise he's still much weaker than guys like Hulk or Thor. As per Earth-712 Hyperion, he would've been wrecked considering just how featless he is.

I agree he's much weaker than Hulk and Thor but throwing him in the 90 ton range is unfair. 712 Hyperion fought Gladiator, Wonder Man and 616 Hyperion which is actually much better than the feats King Hyperion has which are even fewer. My point is more that just looking at the fight, all King did is smack 712 with the other Hyperion which didn't do much after overpowering heat vision. I don't think it proves 712 wouldn't have curbed in extended hand to hand which he should by feats.

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#177 Edited by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:

@highaccuser: I still think he's a 90 toner by concept and even if he has feats that objectively are past that point and marvel's strength categories are kinda off, concept wise he's still much weaker than guys like Hulk or Thor. As per Earth-712 Hyperion, he would've been wrecked considering just how featless he is.

I agree he's much weaker than Hulk and Thor but throwing him in the 90 ton range is unfair. 712 Hyperion fought Gladiator, Wonder Man and 616 Hyperion which is actually much better than the feats King Hyperion has which are even fewer. My point is more that just looking at the fight, all King did is smack 712 with the other Hyperion which didn't do much after overpowering heat vision. I don't think it proves 712 wouldn't have curbed in extended hand to hand which he should by feats.

Why is it unfair? There's a bunch of 90 toners that routinely operate beyond that, i mean, it's not like Marvel is 100% accurate with their depictions, much less when a 90 toner can keep pulling thousand tons feats on regular basis. He fought and lose Gladiator, he fought for a quite short time Wonder Man, he fought and was about to lose to Earth-616 Hyperion yet King Hyperion was fine fighting him and another Hyperion, i'm sorry, but there isn't anything suggesting he would've been able to overpower him alone and the fact both of them were on his knees by the time Blink teleported them means something.

I still maintain that King Hyperion was stronger, he was dividing his attention in 2 Hyperions and was still able to smack them both.

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#178 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (3837 posts) - - Show Bio

Nobody is soloing. Gladiator lost to Professor Hulk, IIRC. Hyperion could lose as well. Together they give him a good fight, and beat him. Possibly a stomp, but I won't go that far.

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#179 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio

Gladiator will be a real problem, but I think Hulk can still take him.

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#180 Posted by termiteone4ever (12742 posts) - - Show Bio

The team got this.

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#181 Posted by Kingant27 (16810 posts) - - Show Bio

Team wins handily.

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#182 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

WWH still wins based on feats and better points being brought in debates.

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#183 Posted by jay_z94 (7895 posts) - - Show Bio
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#184 Posted by Battle123axe (8849 posts) - - Show Bio

WWH still wins based on feats and better points being brought in debates.

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#185 Posted by reaverlation (25756 posts) - - Show Bio

Regarding the Hulk feat of being blasted by Cyclops, the panel actually says Sydney not San Francisco @ghostravage

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#186 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94: Thanks ;).

Regarding the Hulk feat of being blasted by Cyclops, the panel actually says Sydney not San Francisco @ghostravage

You're right, got San Francisco (The Place of Utopia in that moment) with Sydney. Even more impressive then, thank you.

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#187 Posted by noah_ouellette (3296 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty sure, they just play ping pong. Hulk is the ball

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#188 Edited by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#189 Edited by noah_ouellette (3296 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: Pretty sure he actually can't tag them if they like. Try at all. I don't have any more daytoday references tho

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#190 Edited by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@noah_ouellette: I have mountains of evidence he can, considering Colossus, the Thing, Thor, Wolverine, Gambit, Canonball and many, many others with no better speed feats then Hulk have, not to mention a fight that Hulk and Gladiator already had where a weakened Hulk had no trouble tagging him and beating him. As for Hyperion, i have been asking for speed feats for 4 pages already from a bunch of people and i have yet to see one speed feat that makes him untouchable for Hulk(or a speed feat of any kind at all, they all seem to stop replying to me after i ask this question), please tell me you wont back away from the question like everyone else and back up your claim of Hyperion being untouchable to Hulk "if he tried like totally at all and stuff".

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#191 Posted by noah_ouellette (3296 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: I mean they're not untouchable. He's gonna hit them. It's just not gonna drop them. Also Hyperion had that one whole comic where he dodged a lot of blows from sentry. Like yeah he lost but he managed to actually move out of the way of them. As for the comic I don't know what it is. But it's very recent. But the real question is. Got anymore daytoday smack downs that can happen.

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#192 Edited by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@noah_ouellette: Why wouldn't it drop them? He has dropped Gladiator, Thor. Hyperion, Hercules, LoebForce Rulk as well as pretty much every other 100 tonner he faced before, so what's different now? Other then it should be even easier seeing as this is WWH. There is no comic where Sentry and Hyperion faced, not that it would be much of a feat dodging Sentry considering Sentries best speed feats put him as a bullet timer.

There seems to be a lot of cognitive dissonance between some fans and the characters, there genuinely seems to be a small group of people on comicvine that think every character that remotely looks like Superman must have all the same powers, abilities to the same extent if not greater. For instance Hyperion who has no single combat speed worth mentioning who even pales in comparison to Hulk in terms of combat speed feats is somehow untouchable for Hulk if he tried to be, because? He looks like Superman i guess.

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#193 Posted by noah_ouellette (3296 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: Hyperion and sentry did fight. The fact you don't know this is worrying. Hyperion dodged a lot of it. And no. Hyperion reacted to sentries flight speed which he was racing towards Hyperion at. They then fought. And Hyperion got trashed. Hyperion has taken hits from world breaker.

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#194 Posted by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio
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#195 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio
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#196 Posted by noah_ouellette (3296 posts) - - Show Bio
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#197 Edited by GhostRavage (14944 posts) - - Show Bio
@noah_ouellette said:

@ghostravage: Was it not canon? Like I read the comic

You can cite the issue. I have ALL Hyperion's appearances going from Earth-616, Earth-712, Earth-13034 and King Hyperion, both non-canon and canon, even though they have no outside-continuity issues besides Earth-712 Hyperion and King Hyperion with the Exiles, even though those are canon in their own right. Anyways, you keep lying, go hide under a rock.

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#198 Posted by TheKinfing (11645 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Hulk can take this.

Online
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#199 Posted by Mee09 (5537 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk can take them.

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#200 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: Hyperion and sentry did fight. The fact you don't know this is worrying. Hyperion dodged a lot of it. And no. Hyperion reacted to sentries flight speed which he was racing towards Hyperion at. They then fought. And Hyperion got trashed. Hyperion has taken hits from world breaker.

What the hell are you talking about? Nothing you said is true. When did Hyperion take hits from World Breaker lol, what???