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#102 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I am not sure what you are talking about? The PF the way it was portrayed at least in that arc was not multiversal, however all the X-men where amped considerably(maybe not enough in your opinion), still that doesn't concern me. What interests me is that 1/4 Scott manhandled Gladiator, while 1/2 Emma got smashed through an island by Hulk and failed to hurt him. I guess you could say the X-men maybe couldn't unlock the full potential of the PF, nevertheless the comparisson was meant for Gladiator and Hulk not Phoenix Force and how they should one-shot Skyfaters.

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#105 Posted by Caped_Baldy (3539 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I never said that he was using all of his power. But he was packing planetary level energies at the time, as per Pak's quote. Most earth-bound heavy-hitters would get vaporized by that, it's a good feat for Hulk IMO.

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#107 Posted by Caped_Baldy (3539 posts) - - Show Bio

@caped_baldy: Yes it is. Proves how much stronger Hulk has become. However my point is that that fight does not put him above Sentry. Now that I think of it, you said that Post #611 Green Scar was amped even more than WWHulk Green Scar. I don't know about you but didn't Hulk held back in WWH. If he did he probably looks more impressive than in WWH because there he was holding back but here he didn't.

Well, Hulk received Cosmic energy in Incredible Hulk #611, that could be why he operated on a higher range. Or maybe just because Pak decided to portray him in a different way. Who knows.

Green Scar is above Unstable Sentry when it comes to sheer physicals tho. Bob's energy projection under that incarnation is the hardest part to deal with. Stable Sentry is a different animal altogether.

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#109 Posted by Battle123axe (8849 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: fair enough lol but while I know that no writer ever says

"Johnny, would you calculate exactly how much force in gigajoules it would take for iron man to escape a black hole please?" They are most certainly saying well you have to travel at the speed of light to escape a black hole, so let's write him doing that. However, I'm sure it occurred to Hickman that pushing a moon sized object from mars to earth in a short time would take a crapton of force, so he wrote it with the intent of it being an impressive feat, I just happened to think it was interesting and calculated exactly how much force would be needed. However, I'm sure as Hell not going to be doing it with any other feats (aside from 1) because as you said, I really don't need to put too much thought into it. In fact the only reason I did it was because after reading GhostRavage's list of hulk's planetary feats, for some reason (probably OCD) I wanted him to have 10 and there were two feats that came to mind that I thought warranted more looking into.

With that said, even though it took me over an hour to do the calc, and it may not be taken seriously (I'm open to debunking, because I want to be a better debater) it was worth it for this:

After finishing I looked over my work and found this. Instead of the correct unit (ergs) it autocorrected to the funniest thing I had seen all day

"The amount of power it would take to do this feat would be

8.1788e+48 electron volts AND

1.3104e+37 drugs

I loled So Damn hard at this. I mean seriously, I could imagine a professor in a tweexld coat stroking his beard and going, "yes Johnny, it would take that amount of drugs to complete such a feat" and the fact that hulk looks like he's having the time of his life made me laugh even harder.

All worth it.

Off topic, but atheist, I'm begging you here, could you please give me a scan of the hulk's antimatter and matter holding apart feat, and maybe a scan of how heavy the spheres were? Please.

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#110 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle123axe: You mean from Marvel team-up annual #2

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

I have no idea how heavy the spheres where or how much of a force was attracting them to one another. Personally i always wanted to know that myself, because at first glance it looked like an almost impossible feat to preform, that would require ridiculous raw power.

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#111 Posted by Toratorn (6245 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: damn, you are lowballing Gladiator hard. I addressed most of his "consistent" showings in post #65. He took 2 Phoenixes to go down and he looked like he was dominating against both Colossus and Cyclops while they were alone, while just one Cyclops was able to effortlessly physically dominate Thor, he didn't lose to Cannonball, his loss to Hulk was context-heavy and prior to being dosed with radiation Hulk wasn't even harming him, the Gambit one being as legit as Cap defeating Professor Hulk was, he owned Colossus, and has feats like two-shotting Vulcan, owning Nova, stalemating Earth-712 Hyperion, one-shotting Black Bolt, one-shotting Binary, surviving and not being KOed from a shot from Tyrant, who previously one-shot Surfer, having multiple statements from narration and reliable characters supporting his planet busting status. So yeah, him being planetary is consistent, not his low showings.

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#112 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: I am not lowballing Gladiator at all, he is a powerful superhero he just isn't the casual planet buster some people make him out to be. Yes i am aware of the post #65 and while i wanted to address several things there it's best to leave it to GhostRavage since he can tear down arguments much better then me, not to mention he is more interested in prolonged discussions and giant posts. Yes they are full of context like how people tend to forget that Hulk that faced Gladiator was weakened to the point where regular missiles and street signs could hurt him and where he struggles to fight a regular T-rex. With that said, Hulk harmed Gladiator before the radiation even came to play to say he didn't is to outright lie, he gave him a busted lip and the thunderclap to his ear caused him great pain so much so he lost his bearings and fell from orbit. Cap never defeated Proff Hulk. Again i will let GR respond to the rest of your arguments, Gladiator being a planet buster simply is not consistent considering it's literally his only feat of that scale. And he is definitely not on Hulks level in strength and durability as it was seen in their comparative showings against an amped up Anhilius.

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#113 Posted by Battle123axe (8849 posts) - - Show Bio
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#114 Posted by LlehDevil (7259 posts) - - Show Bio

Team dies.

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#115 Edited by Battle123axe (8849 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: calculating this feat, we find that we need to know several things.

1.how heavy are those spheres?

2. How much force is acting between them?

The first question has a simple answer. The two spheres are around 4 times larger and more massive than the hulk is. The average weigh for this incarnation of the hulk(savage) is 1,220 pounds. That times 4 is 4,880 or about 2.44 tons. The second question is harder to answer

We find that the amount of antielectrons (positrons) required to make 1 coulomb is 62.4 quintillion, or 62 with 17 0's and 1 4. The amount of electrons per average antiatom is 59.7. So in order to have 62.4 quintillion positrons, you would have to have 1.5 quintillion atoms. For reference, the amount of atoms in a mole is 602 sextillion, so the amount of atoms in 5 ounces is 602 sextillion. The amount of ounces in 2.44 tonnes is 86,068.47, making the amount of moles in 2.44 tonnes 17,213.694. Now the amount of coulombs in a mole is 9,647.4. What all the numbers, you ask? What is so significant about them? 1 coulomb is equal to 2 billion pounds of force, making 9,647.4 x 2 billion about 19.294 trillion pounds, or 9,647,400,000,000 Tonnes

Since there are two spheres that is 19.294 trillion tonnes of force hulk is resisting, or a weight 119 times that of the moon.

In other words an extremely weak (we all know that hulk's "base" strength is dependent on his anger level when he transforms, and Spider-Man had to literally slap him to make him transform), tired, freshly transformed hulk was able to perform a feat that equated to lifting 119x the weight of the moon.

Not as impressive as as I was hoping, but at least (lol) you have a feat that debunks the idea of a "base level" hulk.

@ghostravage: if you are interested in looking at it, here it is.

On a side note, I won't be doing any more of these since they take up way to much of my time.

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#116 Edited by Battle123axe (8849 posts) - - Show Bio

332,134,782,991,200,000 x 2 = 664,269,565,982,400,000

Alright. @atheistknowledge: right looking at my calculation, I realized that I got something wrong. A tired weak, freshly transformed hulk did not lift

19.294 billion tons...

The Hulk lifted 664.3 quadrillion. Tons. While freshly transformed. And tired.

Damn.

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#117 Posted by Battle123axe (8849 posts) - - Show Bio
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#118 Posted by HellionVulcan (7018 posts) - - Show Bio

@jay_z94 said:

Team.

Without PIS, Hulk couldn't touch them as they're too quick and would speed blitz WWH. It will take a while, but eventually Hulk will go down, especially since a weakened sentry was able to take him down by himself.

Pretty much this as calculating Gladiator's combat speed alone one punch would take Hulk 30 years to react to it so the team should win outside of comic book writing.

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#119 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle123axe: Cool calculations, pretty insane.

@jay_z94 said:

Team.

Without PIS, Hulk couldn't touch them as they're too quick and would speed blitz WWH. It will take a while, but eventually Hulk will go down, especially since a weakened sentry was able to take him down by himself.

Pretty much this as calculating Gladiator's combat speed alone one punch would take Hulk 30 years to react to it so the team should win outside of comic book writing.

None of this is true and i am still waiting on anyone to show me speed feats from Hyperion that make him untouchable by WWH. The weakened Sentry that fought WWH would curb both Hyperion and Gladiator, since neither are in WWH's range.

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#120 Posted by christianrapper (6008 posts) - - Show Bio

there is no way that the hulk can win this. they can fly and are millions of times faster than him. the only way that he can hurt them is if they let him. they can just spam air attacks. they don't have to brawl it out with him.

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#121 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@christianrapper: None of their "air attacks" can hurt him, Hyperions couldn't even hurt regular Hulk and Gladiators hurt a weakened Hulk and flying faster then someone is meaningless when the both of them are gonna engage him in physical combat and lose. BTW where are those Hyperion speed feats? This is like the 10th time i ask you this, you keep bringing it up without anything to back it up with.

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#122 Posted by Lvenger (36267 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: Huh you think the Sentry in WWH was above Gladiator? I don't know, as much as I've been convinced by Ghost that Gladiator isn't what he's cracked up to be, I'm not sure if I put Sentry above Gladiator. I still think Kallark could give a similar, if not greater challenge to WWH alone even if he has little chance of winning.

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#123 Posted by DarkPrimeSovereign (1125 posts) - - Show Bio

Team w/ difficulty.

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#124 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@atheistknowledge: Huh you think the Sentry in WWH was above Gladiator? I don't know, as much as I've been convinced by Ghost that Gladiator isn't what he's cracked up to be, I'm not sure if I put Sentry above Gladiator. I still think Kallark could give a similar, if not greater challenge to WWH alone even if he has little chance of winning.

No hero there could even hope to make Sentry flinch, he was unleashing power that engulfed the city and with his attacks he was doing clear visible damage to Hulk, literally scrapping his flesh. I don't think Gladiator could have done that or posed as much of a threat to everyone there, the more i think about the fight the more i realize that the Sentry that fought WWH was in one of his best showings, up there with his fight with Genis and the Collective. At least i strongly think this was Pak's intention, i really don't see hime sweating details like "this Sentry was super weak because he was unstable"(especially considering we know how highly he thinks of WWH and what he was suppose to do to Sentry in the original script), nah this was an extremely powerful Sentry that would have killed everyone and busted Earth if WWH hadn't stopped him, as Pak himself even noted.

I will say this Sentry is extremely inconsistent so i personally don't take the character as a whole, but based on his specific showings. To me the Sentry that fought WWH is above Gladiator, other stable and unstable showings of him might not be, if you get my point.

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#126 Posted by green_skaar (11998 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: Yes he is inconsistent. He is sometimes weak when stable and sometimes strong when unstable.

Gladiator is overrated. People always say he is above Superman because he is a planetbuster even tho he has only one feat of busting the planet which is incredibly inconsistent. He does not operate on planetbusting level. Hell sometimes it is hard to say does he even operate on planetary level but consistency shows that he is not a planetbuster.

Of course Gladiator is inconsistent, that's part of his power set, much like the Hulk or Sentry. With that being said, in CV it's assumed people are fighting at their best, so in Gladiator's case, full confidence, so we look at what he's capable of, which is planet busting.

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#128 Posted by green_skaar (11998 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: IIRC he busted the planet without being so confident. But at the time he was confident he didn't operate on that level.

Again my point is we know he is capable of busting planets, since he's done it. I was just giving a reason for his inconsistency.

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#130 Posted by green_skaar (11998 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: But his full potential os when he is as confident as he can be. My point is that he wasn't operating on that level ever again, even while being confident unless I missed something.

There is this case:

No Caption Provided

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#132 Edited by green_skaar (11998 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: Problem is that there is no conext behind that scan. he was beating creation. Life and Death. Future and the Past. No context.

You were questioning if he ever operated on a planetary level before, and provided a scan. Frankly I don't want to get in a debate about the context, I still think WWH wins this fight and still think Gladiator can bust planets, namely since he has.

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#133 Edited by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: Yes he is inconsistent. He is sometimes weak when stable and sometimes strong when unstable.

Exactly, which is why i take him by individual showings.

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#136 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger said:

@green_skaar: IIRC he busted the planet without being so confident. But at the time he was confident he didn't operate on that level.

Again my point is we know he is capable of busting planets, since he's done it. I was just giving a reason for his inconsistency.

The problem is the reason of the inconsistency is untrue. Apart from 3-shotting a planet that one time, Gladiator has never, EVER operated anywhere near that level. Not even with the hyperbolic statements from his kid.

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#138 Posted by green_skaar (11998 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar said:

Again my point is we know he is capable of busting planets, since he's done it. I was just giving a reason for his inconsistency.

The problem is the reason of the inconsistency is untrue. Apart from 3-shotting a planet that one time, Gladiator has never, EVER operated anywhere near that level. Not even with the hyperbolic statements from his kid.

Characters don't routinely go busting planets even if they are capable of it, particularly heroes. We only need to see it ONCE to know if they can, at that point the debate is over. Also that was his kids flatly saying he SAW it, not that his dad could or was capable of it.

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#139 Posted by green_skaar (11998 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge: And that feat with Phoenix is out of conext. As I said:

@krleavenger said:

Problem is that there is no conext behind that scan. He was beating up the creation. Life and Death. Future and the Past. No context.

I didn't want to get roped into this, but yes there is context. Gladiator is taking on Phoenix Cyclops, and his son knows he'll lose despite how powerful his father is and goes on to explain just how powerful his father is. Also I can't find the scan off hand but his planet busting I believe (going off memory) again is referenced when he boxes Champion.

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#140 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger said:

@atheistknowledge: And that feat with Phoenix is out of conext. As I said:

@krleavenger said:

Problem is that there is no conext behind that scan. He was beating up the creation. Life and Death. Future and the Past. No context.

I didn't want to get roped into this, but yes there is context. Gladiator is taking on Phoenix Cyclops, and his son knows he'll lose despite how powerful his father is and goes on to explain just how powerful his father is. Also I can't find the scan off hand but his planet busting I believe (going off memory) again is referenced when he boxes Champion.

The context is inconsistent in itself. Yea, but his son exaggerating his fathers abilities still doesn't put him as powerful as to 3-shot a planet. This a guy that had a surpisingly difficult fight with Colossus, lost to Cannonball, lost to Gambit, got beaten almost to death by Eric Masterson, got beaten by Thor physically, got badly injured by Thor girl lightning, etc... Don't get me wrong, Gladiator is a powerhouse, he just isn't one that can blow apart planets so easily.

Characters don't routinely go busting planets even if they are capable of it, particularly heroes. We only need to see it ONCE to know if they can, at that point the debate is over. Also that was his kids flatly saying he SAW it, not that his dad could or was capable of it.

So we saw Grey Hulk busting an asteroid twice the size of Earth to put him on that level, despite all the other feats that put him nowhere near that level? Gladiator does not need to bust planets all the time, what he does have to do is operate on that scale as in be a threat to the planets, fight equally powerful beings on the same level, etc.. Yes and kids constantly exaggerate what their fathers can do and if cracking Moons, HV burning hotter then the Sun(surface or core?) and tearing apart black holes(massive context missing), then again he really isn't the planetary threat he is made out to be.

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#142 Posted by Caped_Baldy (3539 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger said:

@atheistknowledge: Yes he is inconsistent. He is sometimes weak when stable and sometimes strong when unstable.

Exactly, which is why i take him by individual showings.

Really? i'm not a Sentry expert or anything, but i don't think that unstable Sentry is inconsistent, much less Stable that has less than 10 showings AFAIK. Care to explain? just out of curiosity.

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#144 Posted by AtheistKnowledge (9595 posts) - - Show Bio

@atheistknowledge said:
@krleavenger said:

@atheistknowledge: Yes he is inconsistent. He is sometimes weak when stable and sometimes strong when unstable.

Exactly, which is why i take him by individual showings.

Really? i'm not a Sentry expert or anything, but i don't think that unstable Sentry is inconsistent, much less Stable that has less than 10 showings AFAIK. Care to explain? just out of curiosity.

There are times where unstable Sentry ran away from Torch's fire and then times where he stalemated WWH and fought Thor and the rest of the Avengers, there are times where stable Sentry is shredding worlds while fighting Genis and times where he get's manhandled by Rulk or Hercules. Basically every writer has a different idea on how powerful they wanna portray him stable or unstable.

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#145 Edited by Caped_Baldy (3539 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger said:

@caped_baldy: Stable Sentry was beaten up by Red Hulk and Human Torch and unstable Sentry ended up in a stalemate with WWH while it was WWH who should win against so unstbale Sentry. So sometimes unstable Sentry is too strong and sometimes stable Sentry is too weak.

That was Loeb's Rulk who had his absorbing powers to boot. Don't know about the Human Torch instance, is there any context behind, or is stated that that one is stable Sentry? Jenkins had him stomping Terrax without breaking a sweat, stalemate the void and one-shoting Attuma.

Well, when unstable Sentry pushed himself he did some impressive stuff and operated between the moon-planetary level range, so his fight against WWH isn't like an outlier or something, it is clearly noted that Bob holds back less when he starts throwing around his energy.

@atheistknowledge

''There are times where unstable Sentry ran away from Torch's fire and then times where he stalemated WWH and fought Thor and the rest of the Avengers, there are times where stable Sentry is shredding worlds while fighting Genis and times where he get's manhandled by Rulk or Hercules. Basically every writer has a different idea on how powerful they wanna portray him stable or unstable.''

Adressed that already.

I don't clearly remember if stable Sentry was the one who fought Genis honestly. Loeb's Red Hulk, and when he fought Hercules in Dark Reign he was constantly struggling with Void for control, he was pretty much unstable in Dark Avengers.

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#147 Posted by Caped_Baldy (3539 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger:

It was. Bruce was still caged on the gamma base, so it happened roughly between Hulk #1-Hulk #3.

Well that's weird.

Agreed.

IMO, unstable Sentry was more willingly to use more power when he imbued himself with energy or started to throw it around.

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#149 Posted by Caped_Baldy (3539 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger said:

@caped_baldy: Doesn't matter really. He is powerful character. If we would want to go by "stable/unstable", Hulk should have won that fight.

Well that's your opinion. Unstable Sentry has shown moon level and planetary level energies on panel, stalemating WWH while going crazy with power shouldn't be a weird thing but W/E.