World War Hulk vs Juggernaut

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butcher_pete

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#1  Edited By butcher_pete

This is Hulk and Juggernaut from World War Hulk: X-Men #3. (Sorry no pictures) 
 
Fight takes place in Yankee Stadium with Mjolnir encircling it. So like in his fight with Thor (Thor #429), Juggernaut has lost his impenetrable forcefield and can be hurt by physical force. 
 
So without his forcefield how will Juggernaut fare against the Hulk? 
 
Win by KO or death, no BFR.

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Fluke-buddha

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#2  Edited By Fluke-buddha

Without his field Juggs doesn't have a chance.

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Fragneto

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#3  Edited By Fragneto
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pooty

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#4  Edited By pooty

@Fluke-buddha: Even without forcefield Juggs wins. Remember when Thor cut off his forcefield. It's not like Juggs was a regular human or Thor would have killed him with one punch. It's not like without the forcefield Juggs is a regular dude. It just took away one layer of his invulnerability.

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butcher_pete

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#5  Edited By butcher_pete
@pooty
Yeah, but in that fight it went from Thor getting whooped to Thor laying a beatdown on Juggernaut.
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the human Juggernaut

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juggernaut still wins, he's invulnerable with or without the forcefield.

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pooty

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#7  Edited By pooty

@Butcher_Pete: He surprised Juggs is all. Juggs probably didn't know that could happen. Even if Mjolnir kept going Juggs would have settled down and beat Thor down. I believe Thor beats Hulk but i don't remember him EVER beating Juggs.

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butcher_pete

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#8  Edited By butcher_pete
@the human Juggernaut said:

juggernaut still wins, he's invulnerable with or without the forcefield.


Juggernaut said himself in that fight "Ya mighta taken away my invulnerability, but I'm still as strong as ever!" and also expressed pain from being hit... so I dont think he is.
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Fluke-buddha

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#9  Edited By Fluke-buddha
@pooty said:

@Fluke-buddha: Even without forcefield Juggs wins. Remember when Thor cut off his forcefield. It's not like Juggs was a regular human or Thor would have killed him with one punch. It's not like without the forcefield Juggs is a regular dude. It just took away one layer of his invulnerability.

No, without the forcefield to negate all damage Juggs is going to lose eventually.  WWHulk is more than able to put the hurt on Juggie, and Juggie isn't going to put WWHulk down on  his own.    ..and what are you even talking about 'layers of invulnerability'?  Juggs has one source of invulnerablity, his forcefield.  Without it he only has really high durability, not unvulnerability.  It'll be long, it'll be ugly, but at the end the Hulk takes this. 
 
@the human Juggernaut said:

juggernaut still wins, he's invulnerable with or without the forcefield.


No, he's not.  The forcefield is the source of his invulnerability. Without it he's susceptible to physical damage.
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pooty

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#10  Edited By pooty

@Fluke-buddha: No even in his official bio it says that Juggs is invulnerable AND then it talks about his forcefield. It is 2 different things. Thor had 60 seconds to put down Juggs without his force field and couldn't do it. Colossus(with Cytoraks) power shows no force field but can't be stopped. Same with Juggs. Wolverine has been able to get past the force field and injure Juggs eye but it healed up. So even if you get past his force field you still can't beat him by force. If you have proof showing otherwise please present it

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butcher_pete

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#11  Edited By butcher_pete
@pooty
He's not invulnerable without it... this fight has the same conditions with his fight with Thor, where he stated himself he was no longer invulnerable and expressed pain. Thor not putting him down in 60 seconds shows Juggernaut's still very high durability, but that's not to say given more time Thor wouldn't have KO'd him... seeing as he was dominating the fight while Juggs had his forcefield down.  As for Thor never beating Juggernaut... it's because essentially no one without TP can... Thor almost beat him, but ran out of time. So just like everyone else, he BFRs him.
 
I personally think that taking Juggernaut's forcefield away puts him on an equal footing with the Hulk. With Hulk taking the majority.
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HellionVulcan

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#12  Edited By HellionVulcan

To the death Juggernaut wins wwhulk stands no chance to ending Juggernauts life .

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butcher_pete

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#13  Edited By butcher_pete
@HellionVulcan
Win conditions are death or KO.
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pooty

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#14  Edited By pooty

@Butcher_Pete: I don't recall him saying he was no longer invulnerable. Also Juggs is powered by the Crimson Gem. That power courses through his body giving him his strength and invulnerability. The force field is just an extra layer. Remember he has been injured. Knocked unconscience. He can bleed. So you can get past the force field. But his invulnerability is what keeps him alive and makes him heal. He does not need to eat or breath because the power is in him. Only Cytorak can take that away.

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texasdeathmatch

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#15  Edited By texasdeathmatch
@the human Juggernaut said:

juggernaut still wins, he's invulnerable with or without the forcefield.

Then what's the point of him having a forcefield?
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pooty

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#16  Edited By pooty

@texasdeathmatch: It's an added layer of protection. Without the force field he would feel more pain than without it. Without the forcefield he would feel knife cuts, bullets, powerful blast. He would still be invulnerable and heal but with the force field he don't even have to feel the pain.

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texasdeathmatch

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#17  Edited By texasdeathmatch
@pooty: ah ha, that's interesting. Thanks.
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progenitorigin

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#18  Edited By progenitorigin

 
I'm going with the Juggernaut, even without the forcefield.

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Killemall

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#19  Edited By Killemall

@pooty said:

@Fluke-buddha: No even in his official bio it says that Juggs is invulnerable AND then it talks about his forcefield. It is 2 different things. Thor had 60 seconds to put down Juggs without his force field and couldn't do it. Colossus(with Cytoraks) power shows no force field but can't be stopped. Same with Juggs. Wolverine has been able to get past the force field and injure Juggs eye but it healed up. So even if you get past his force field you still can't beat him by force. If you have proof showing otherwise please present it

Well the current juggernaut doesnt even have cyttorak's powers so he is no longer invulnerable, and from what i understand, unless otherwise stated it is assumed to be the most current version right?? So its World War Hulk vs Current Juggernaut (Kuurth, after de-powerment). I think it sounds like a nice battle.

@pooty said:

@texasdeathmatch: It's an added layer of protection. Without the force field he would feel more pain than without it. Without the forcefield he would feel knife cuts, bullets, powerful blast. He would still be invulnerable and heal but with the force field he don't even have to feel the pain.

To be able to heal and be physically invulnerable is 2 different thing isn't it. Hulk, Wolverine or even Deadpool, they all heal instantly .. they arent said to be physically invulnerable. However, i dont really get the idea of the whole force field myself.

@Butcher_Pete said:

@HellionVulcan: Win conditions are death or KO.

I am not sure if this is the most recent version, and if it is I am personally voting for the Hulk to win, however, should this be actual Juggernaut we know.. before depowerment and before Fear Itself, juggernaut still takes it IMO.

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Fluke-buddha

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#20  Edited By Fluke-buddha
@pooty said:

@Fluke-buddha: No even in his official bio it says that Juggs is invulnerable AND then it talks about his forcefield. It is 2 different things. Thor had 60 seconds to put down Juggs without his force field and couldn't do it. Colossus(with Cytoraks) power shows no force field but can't be stopped. Same with Juggs. Wolverine has been able to get past the force field and injure Juggs eye but it healed up. So even if you get past his force field you still can't beat him by force. If you have proof showing otherwise please present it

Just because Thor couldn't put Juggs down in 60 seconds means nothing.  Juggs is still plenty tough without the forcefield, he's just not invulnerable.  No Juggs is not invulnerable without the forcefield, the forcefield is the source of his invulnerability everyone knows that.  It's illogical that Cyttorak would give him invulnerability and a forcefield that provides invulnerability.  You are simply wrong on this account.  The very fact that you admit Wolverine injured him proves you are wrong and are not thinking about this clearly.  If Juggs was still invulnerably without the forcefield, Wolverine would not have been able to injure him, period.  Your confusing fast recovery with invulnerability.   
 
Juggs can be beaten by force, he's been beaten by force a lot over the years.  Just because he healed from Wolverine poking him in the eye means absolutely nothing.  Unless you seriously think Wolverines claws are the most powerful thing in the Marvel U.  WWHulk beat the hell out of so many people I find it astounding you think a jobber like Juggs could beat him alone.  WWHulk is much stronger than Juggs, and without the invulnerability, he isn't going to be able to outlast WWHulk is a fight.  Juggs simply doesn't have the strength to put WWHulk down before he himself loses.
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Fluke-buddha

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#21  Edited By Fluke-buddha

Because some of you are confused:
 
in·vul·ner·a·ble   (n-vlnr--bl)

adj.
1. Immune to attack; impregnable.
2. Impossible to damage, injure, or wound.
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pooty

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#22  Edited By pooty

@Killemall: Ok you are right. you have to go by current. Forgot that. Well current Juggs is still powered by an Asgardian god. Colossus even after being powered by Cytorak stated that Current Juggs is still stronger and more powerful than he is. I would say that current Juggs still beats WWH.

If you take the fact that you heal almost instantly from any attack AND you can't be killed that equals invulnerable.

The newest avatar of cytorak is colossus. I don't see why he wouldn't be equal to when Cain marko was juggernaut. Same power source equals same powers i would think. But the current avatar of Cytorak says that Kuurth is still more powerful and stronger than him. WOuldn't that mean that Kuurth is more powerful than WWH?

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pooty

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#23  Edited By pooty

@Fluke-buddha: @Butcher_Pete: Don't you see that the whole Thor thing was BS or PIS in the first place? If Juggs is powered by Cytorak and Thor cut off that power then Juggs should have become regular Cain marko. It's illogical to think that only one specific part of his power would be cut off. He should have been powerless. The whole feat was just a way for Thor to finally get some hits in. Thor is not powerful enough to cut off the power of someone as powerful as Cytorak. It was bad writing and thats why so many people are confused because one bad writer made a mistake. Magik could have cut off his power if she could. She is a POWERFUL magic caster. But she had to go to Cytorak because only Cytorak or someone more powerful can take Cains power away. Thor is no where near that powerful.

But the OP is current Juggs who doesnt' have a forcefield any way. Juggs is still more powerful than Colossus even with the added power of Cytorak so current Juggs still beats WWH. WWH couldn't even beat Juggs when Cytorak was not giving him all his power. He had to outsmart Juggs because he couldn't beat him. WWH didn't beat anyone that regular hulk couldn't beat.

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Fluke-buddha

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#24  Edited By Fluke-buddha
@pooty: "If you take the fact that you heal almost instantly from any attack AND you can't be killed that equals invulnerable."
 
No, it really doesn't.  If you were invulnerable you wouldn't have to heal from anything because it wouldn't hurt you in the first place.  
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vance_astro

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#25  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator

Draw.

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tron_bonne

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#26  Edited By tron_bonne

LOL 
 
The forcefield is the extra layer that alters probability and makes Juggernaut invulnerable to stuff like magic. It turns off and on at will just like how Magneto's forcefield turns off and on at will. So Juggernaut's forcefield is not always on. It's just an added layer of his invulnerability. His skin is invulnerable as well. 
 
These are the layers of invulnerability: 

  • Atoms are invulnerable of being altered or broken. He's molecular structure is based on magic so no one who is able to alter realty can warp the Juggernaut
  • Bones are incapable of being broken, wrapped, or shattered by anything physical what-so-ever
  • Organs are indestructible by any physical means possible under the laws of physics
  • Flesh can not be torn or destroyed by anything under the laws of physics
  • Skin incapable of being pierced, bruised, or damaged of any kind under the physical nature
  • Forcefield is the layer that protects Juggernaut from anything beyond physical such as magical assaults, probability changes, time warp, soul altering or stealing powers, 
  • His armor is known to be highly resilient and virtually indestructible aside from the helmet which is not bolted on. 
 
 
 This being said, Thor only negated the Forcefield. Juggernaut was not feeling any pain by Thor's physical attacks but rather the Magic Thor was producing with his hits. Trust me, everyone tried to take off all the layers of Juggernaut's invulnerability, even Oblivion tried. The only person to really succeed in taking away all of Juggernaut's invulnerability was D'Spraye but even he failed to destroy Juggernaut. 
 

 D   'Spayre uses a fraction of what he's borrowed from Juggernaut was able to control the fabric of the universe.
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Killemall

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#27  Edited By Killemall

@pooty said:

@Killemall: Ok you are right. you have to go by current. Forgot that. Well current Juggs is still powered by an Asgardian god. Colossus even after being powered by Cytorak stated that Current Juggs is still stronger and more powerful than he is. I would say that current Juggs still beats WWH.

If you take the fact that you heal almost instantly from any attack AND you can't be killed that equals invulnerable.

The newest avatar of cytorak is colossus. I don't see why he wouldn't be equal to when Cain marko was juggernaut. Same power source equals same powers i would think. But the current avatar of Cytorak says that Kuurth is still more powerful and stronger than him. WOuldn't that mean that Kuurth is more powerful than WWH?

Apart from the fact that Colossus said that while fighting juggernaut there is no reason to believe that was true, and if u see the fight it all points to the contrary anyways. He said Juggy is stronger, more powerful but Colossus cant be stop, yet Colossus was pounding juggy like anything, juggy looked broken and was BFRed by Serpant because Serpant didnt want him dead.

Just because Colossus is being powered by the gem doesnt make him as powerful as Juggy, in fact Colossus seem to be bleeding that actual fight with juggy whereas juggy at his best was pretty much invulnerable to harms. Again, if you really look at it, juggy has at times been shown very weak and at times been sure very strong therefore we dont know which version Colossus is going to turn out. To be honest i think he's going to be like a weak juggy, because the big C wants destruction and seeing how soft hearted Colossus is at most he'll seem like a weak version. Besides at the end of the battle Colossus's helmet disappeared and i have no idea if that means colossus has no longer juggy's powers??

Juggernaut current is super depowered and seeing how hulk actually went against Zeus, albiet lost, goes to show that hulk has what it takes to beat Kuurth, and to note is that it wasnt the world war hulk that went against Zeus isnt it :)

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tron_bonne

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#28  Edited By tron_bonne

FYI: Juggernaut's Healing/Regeneration factor is ONLY when VERY powerful or piercing magic (like potent magic enchanted blade) manages to make it passed his forcefield. However, Juggernaut doesn't always have his forcefield on. It turns on by will. Having be turned on by will means that his forcefield is not automatically turned on. This is why someone like Shatterstar was able to cut Juggernaut once.

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tron_bonne

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#29  Edited By tron_bonne
@pooty said:

But the current avatar of Cytorak says that Kuurth is still more powerful and stronger than him. WOuldn't that mean that Kuurth is more powerful than WWH?

He was talking in "past-perspective" point of view. 
 
You have read it from the very beginning before Colossanaut enters the portal back to Earth: 
"I used to wonder how the Juggernaut before me was so powerful and now I wonder how he could ever stop....... He was stronger than me, faster, more powerful...."
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pooty

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#30  Edited By pooty

@Fluke-buddha: Juggs invulnerability is like Hulks unlimited strength. They are so high that they seem unstoppable or unlimited. Can Juggs beat a full fed Galactus? No. Is Hulk strong enough to beat a full fed Galactus? No. So by normal conditions they are invulnerable and unlimited strength but nether really are.

@Killemall: Why would Colossus say it if it wasn't true? Colossus skull got split. He was in more pain than he has ever felt. THose are his words. Look at the pics. Colossus head is dented in a few different places. His face is smashed in. This was not a one sided fight. Colossus was unstoppable because he couldn't stop RUNNING. Even after the fight he couldn't stop running. Thats was his only advantage. And look at what Magic said. Kuurth was not taken away because of Colossus beating him but they were entering a power nexus that could destroy them all. Read each scan carefully. I'm not making this stuff up. lol

@tron_bonne: No he definitly says while they are fighting that he IS stronger than me. He IS more powerful than me. The only advantage i have is that i can't be stopped. Past Colossus could be stopped so he is talking about their current states. So Colossus is admitting that Kuurth is more powerful than him right now.

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tron_bonne

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#31  Edited By tron_bonne
@pooty: That is some serious bad writing because 1) He had his arms bent the opposite way by WWH so how could he have felt more pain than that? and 2) He has the power of the Juggernaut so he is incapable of feeling any pain let alone having his skull bent in. SO it's either a) he's thinking metaphorically..... or b) he was talking into the past-tense and meshing it with the present.
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Fluke-buddha

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#32  Edited By Fluke-buddha
@pooty: Just think about this.  If you're saying that healing quickly and being unable to die makes you invulnerable, then that means Wolverine is invulnerable.
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bballaag

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#33  Edited By bballaag

Im gonna go with Juggernaut

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pooty

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#34  Edited By pooty

@tron_bonne: Umm his skull was cracked by Kuurth and Kuurth was burning him with lightning that would destroy armies. That might be worse than broken arms. also Kuurth is fighting an asgardian god. That puts him someplace between Thor and Odin. I think Kuurth maybe more powerful than the portion of power Cytorak gives his avatars.

@Fluke-buddha:

Juggs invulnerability is like Hulks unlimited strength. They are so high that they seem unstoppable or unlimited. Can Juggs beat a full fed Galactus? No. Is Hulk strong enough to beat a full fed Galactus? No. So by normal conditions they are invulnerable and unlimited strength but neither really are. So what would you call Wolverine since he can't be killed by normal means?

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TheSpiritStalker

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#35  Edited By TheSpiritStalker

Hulk should be able to concentrate some anger into strength...if that makes sense.

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MagneticTempest

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#36  Edited By MagneticTempest

WWH was beating Juggernaut. He can beat Kuurth too.

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MagnusTheMagnificent

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@tron_bonne: I was always under the assumption that Cyttorak gives power to the Juggernaut depending on how much destruction he causes, and since Colossus hadn't done anything yet before stepping up against Kuurth, Cyttorak wasn't channeling enough power to Colossus to be more powerful than Kuurth is at the moment.

Colossonaut is basically still Colossus, a bit but not much more powerful, but he now also has the unstoppability of classic Juggernaut added.

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the human Juggernaut

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@texasdeathmatch said:

@the human Juggernaut said:

juggernaut still wins, he's invulnerable with or without the forcefield.

Then what's the point of him having a forcefield?

so he can't be picked up, and to repel objects away from him.

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the human Juggernaut

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@pooty said:

@texasdeathmatch: It's an added layer of protection. Without the force field he would feel more pain than without it. Without the forcefield he would feel knife cuts, bullets, powerful blast. He would still be invulnerable and heal but with the force field he don't even have to feel the pain.

wrong.

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texasdeathmatch

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#40  Edited By texasdeathmatch
@the human Juggernaut said:

@pooty said:

@texasdeathmatch: It's an added layer of protection. Without the force field he would feel more pain than without it. Without the forcefield he would feel knife cuts, bullets, powerful blast. He would still be invulnerable and heal but with the force field he don't even have to feel the pain.

wrong.

WHO DO I BELIEVE???
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the human Juggernaut

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@pooty said:

@tron_bonne: Umm his skull was cracked by Kuurth and Kuurth was burning him with lightning that would destroy armies. That might be worse than broken arms. also Kuurth is fighting an asgardian god. That puts him someplace between Thor and Odin. I think Kuurth maybe more powerful than the portion of power Cytorak gives his avatars.

@Fluke-buddha:

Juggs invulnerability is like Hulks unlimited strength. They are so high that they seem unstoppable or unlimited. Can Juggs beat a full fed Galactus? No. Is Hulk strong enough to beat a full fed Galactus? No. So by normal conditions they are invulnerable and unlimited strength but neither really are. So what would you call Wolverine since he can't be killed by normal means?

wrong again. And you can drown wolverine.

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the human Juggernaut

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@Fluke-buddha said:

@pooty said:

@Fluke-buddha: No even in his official bio it says that Juggs is invulnerable AND then it talks about his forcefield. It is 2 different things. Thor had 60 seconds to put down Juggs without his force field and couldn't do it. Colossus(with Cytoraks) power shows no force field but can't be stopped. Same with Juggs. Wolverine has been able to get past the force field and injure Juggs eye but it healed up. So even if you get past his force field you still can't beat him by force. If you have proof showing otherwise please present it

Just because Thor couldn't put Juggs down in 60 seconds means nothing. Juggs is still plenty tough without the forcefield, he's just not invulnerable. No Juggs is not invulnerable without the forcefield, the forcefield is the source of his invulnerability everyone knows that. It's illogical that Cyttorak would give him invulnerability and a forcefield that provides invulnerability. You are simply wrong on this account. The very fact that you admit Wolverine injured him proves you are wrong and are not thinking about this clearly. If Juggs was still invulnerably without the forcefield, Wolverine would not have been able to injure him, period. Your confusing fast recovery with invulnerability. Juggs can be beaten by force, he's been beaten by force a lot over the years. Just because he healed from Wolverine poking him in the eye means absolutely nothing. Unless you seriously think Wolverines claws are the most powerful thing in the Marvel U. WWHulk beat the hell out of so many people I find it astounding you think a jobber like Juggs could beat him alone. WWHulk is much stronger than Juggs, and without the invulnerability, he isn't going to be able to outlast WWHulk is a fight. Juggs simply doesn't have the strength to put WWHulk down before he himself loses.

Jesus Christ.

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pooty

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#43  Edited By pooty

@the human Juggernaut: You said i was wrong and then wrong again. Wrong about what?

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the human Juggernaut

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@texasdeathmatch said:

@the human Juggernaut said:

@pooty said:

@texasdeathmatch: It's an added layer of protection. Without the force field he would feel more pain than without it. Without the forcefield he would feel knife cuts, bullets, powerful blast. He would still be invulnerable and heal but with the force field he don't even have to feel the pain.

wrong.

WHO DO I BELIEVE???

I could post many scans of him laughing at bullets, hits from the hulk, lightning from thor, and even knives and powerful blasts. However,I won't. You believe who you want to believe.

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the human Juggernaut

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@pooty said:

@the human Juggernaut: You said i was wrong and then wrong again. Wrong about what?

this statement "texasdeathmatch: It's an added layer of protection. Without the force field he would feel more pain than without it. Without the forcefield he would feel knife cuts, bullets, powerful blast. He would still be invulnerable and heal but with the force field he don't even have to feel the pain"

is simply 100% completely untrue.

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Lance Bastro

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#46  Edited By Lance Bastro
@texasdeathmatch said:
@the human Juggernaut said:

@pooty said:

@texasdeathmatch: It's an added layer of protection. Without the force field he would feel more pain than without it. Without the forcefield he would feel knife cuts, bullets, powerful blast. He would still be invulnerable and heal but with the force field he don't even have to feel the pain.

wrong.

WHO DO I BELIEVE???
the human juggernaut = short answers = no bs
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pooty

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#47  Edited By pooty

@the human Juggernaut: Ok then what is true about the force field? WHen Thor took the forcefield away it appeared that he was being affected by the blows more than when the force field was active. And we know he laughs at bullets and lightning but that was all with the force field. What is the purpose of the force field if it doesn't help?

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Lance Bastro

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#48  Edited By Lance Bastro
@pooty said:

@the human Juggernaut: Ok then what is true about the force field? WHen Thor took the forcefield away it appeared that he was being affected by the blows more than when the force field was active. And we know he laughs at bullets and lightning but that was all with the force field. What is the purpose of the force field if it doesn't help?

it seems that tron bonne already posted that information on page 2. 
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the human Juggernaut

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@pooty said:

@the human Juggernaut: Ok then what is true about the force field? WHen Thor took the forcefield away it appeared that he was being affected by the blows more than when the force field was active. And we know he laughs at bullets and lightning but that was all with the force field. What is the purpose of the force field if it doesn't help?

that was an ignorant writer. He almost never uses the force field. You can always see it when he uses it. He's been hit countless times by many powerful people, and hasn't been hurt by them.

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HellionVulcan

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#50  Edited By HellionVulcan
@MagneticTempest said:
WWH was beating Juggernaut. He can beat Kuurth too.
Juggernaut was beating wwhulk & was stronger then him but which version of kuurth are u using ? when he was powered by two gods or one as both could hurt hulk bad i mean with only the serpents power kuurth smashed colossus's skull while powered by Cyttorak a feat wwhulk couldn't do or any hulk but Juggernaut can't be KO or killed by any hulk maybe besides cosmic hulk .