World Breaker Hulks vs. Justice League of America

Well, we are either using High-End feats with speculation, which you are doing for Hulk, in which case i will use SUperman's 50x Kepler SUpernova from a red sun, or we are using legitimate feats with no speculation, in which case Hulk isn't actually anything more than a planetary threat, because his feats have never gone above planetary so far.

Gamma Bursts are lightspeed attacks, do you want a list of characters from the JLA roster that can easil react to lightspeed?

No, actually if you go back at my old account it's quite different positions to now, I used to be almost on the level of a fanboy as you and termite but i chilled out since then. I was so schooled over it i managed to change the position of vast of the majority of people on CV on Hulk/WBH, together with a couple of more people to the point where 4 WBH's against 30+ DC characters is actually a thread that's highly debated, meanwhile in the decade you and termite have been on here you have left zero impact on anyone including the DC side and are living memes more than anything else. There are several Superman fans who actually switched to believing WBH can beat Superman entirely because of the arguments guys like me, GR and TDB made, what have you done in the 12 years you have been on this site? Planning your retirement with termite? What 2 moons? You mean the 1 Moon that looked cracked? Also which gamma never made them stronger? Are you talking about the nukes FFF fired at them? Who said that didn't make them stronger? Where? Are the brain worms that you have making you invent stuff because you can't counter any of the things currently said? Mr. there is no difference between Hulk and WBH in my arguments, Mr. Hulk was amped by the wishing wells, Mr Hulk didn't defeat his wife therefore he is weak despite the fact that in fighting his wife they blew up a planet and vaporized billions of beings. How does one hang around these forum for 12 years and not be able to convince a single person on any of his arguments, that's actually impressive in it's own way.

@punyaamrit: Restructure your post, please. I can't really reply to it when it's a big blob of ugly text.

@professorrespect: Looks fine to me, but will do something.

Tell me what high-end feats have i used for Hulk here? All i have used are literally the legitimate feats here. I haven't mentioned Hulk tanking universe busting attacks or punching through time, or shaking infinite dimensions or tanking an explosion amped nigh infinitely or lifting infinite matter, etc... So which exactly high-ends am i using here? Also Superman tanked the shockwave of the Keppler Supernova, he was actually about to be vaporized from the radiation of it

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WBH's feats are above planetary, we don't have to speculate about that, we can see it.

Sure if you want you can list them here Cyborg isn't one of them though, but there is a difference reacting to a lightpseed attack when you know what you are fighting and a difference between reacting to one as soon as a fight starts against unkown opponents, on top of that plenty of those who can react to it but still can't do anything about them other than just BFR themselves maybe.

@underfire47 said:

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@chimeroid said:

This is lockable, the JLA stomps with ridiculous ease. Anyone claiming otherwise is very delusional or just refuses to accept the truth.

Ne seri mnogo.

Haahaha, so funny, good that you remember where i am from, but i will keep to english for now. Fact is, there are members of the JLA in this lineup that can handle the Hulk 1v1, but, more importantly, there are many members in the lineup that can just teleport or otherwise move the Hulks to space and win via BFR.

Not that hard when you are the only person on here from the same place as me. Regular Hulk for sure, WBH, i am not sure how many can handle him, probably less than a handful, with 4 WBH's all amping each other up that becomes even more difficult to imagine. BFR is certainly possible if they react in time and manage to survive the gamma barrage for the first few seconds.

The best feat for Hulk's Gamma Barrage is planetary, Superman has survived a Supernova of a red sun, showering him in red sun radiation. Furthermore, Post Crisis Lanterns have feats of blocking radiation, and MOST IMPORTANTLY Captain Atom absorbs radiation and uses it as his own power. Add to that Post-Flashpoint Captain Atom powers, it's a stomp for the DC team. There's too much in the team, too many variables, too many complementary powers. if the fight had any form of fair numbers i could get behind your argument, but as it is, the Hulks stand no chance of challenging the JLA team in a ComicVine setup.

Planetary+, the operational word being survived, Superman has been knocked out by planetary level attacks many, MANY times before and way less than that i mean Superman has been consistently more knocked out by nukes than he has survived Supernovas so i don't even understand the argument unless you are trying to convince me nothing short of a Supernova can take him out. Not radiation on this level no. Yea i already mentioned CA could potentially solo this on his own. It's not really a stomp it depends mostly on the arguments, the problem with fighting WBH and multiple of that is as soon as the fight starts you are instantly bombarded with planetary++ gamma blasts, only a handful of characters in the JLA would even survive or stay conscious through that initially, most wouldn't even be able to react because they wouldn't' be prepared for it, especially now that gamma in Marvel has went through a revision where it's more hax than any simple radiation being partially magic and partially divine. Honestly removing just 1-2 characters from JLA and i would favor the WBH's for a majority.

Here's the thing, you want to argue that Superman's feats are "high-end" and you counter with lower-end feats, which makes sense, however, you yourself tend to be using the highest-end feat you can think of.

As far as the speed of reaction and surviving assaults, you are forgetting that, again, DC team has characters that can easily shield literally everyone. Seriously, too overstacked for fighting Hulk, who while powerful is too linear for this fight. He has superstats and planetary energy projection. That's laughable against this team. Heck, Cyborg could just open a boom tube in front of the team and the gamma blasts just go away.

Me saying Superman has been KO'd multiple times by planetary level feats is a low end for Superman? How powerful do you think Superman is? A Solar System level character? My only remark that using a supernova feat is very sketchy considering how many feats there are out there that counter it, way more consistently so. Now do i think Superman is a nuke level character because he got KO'd by nukes multiple times? Not at all, not even close... but that is still more consistent than his Solar System level feats so when someone goes to that extreme all i can do is counter with another extreme. So once again i have no idea why you brought up the supernova feat unless you think that's normal for Superman and nothing short of that can KO him so he can deal with 4 WBH's just fine.

Oh i am fully aware they can shield everyone, that wasn't my argument, my argument was if they would be prepared for it and react accordingly, because as soon as the fight starts, they are instantly getting bombarded by gamma bursts, now about at least 90% of the characters in this thread aren't even surviving a barrage of that from 4 WBH's. The problem with that thinking is it's too simplistic, yes Hulk is fairly linear here but the 1 thing he does he does it to a level where it excels, the gamma burst is quite deadly to the vast majority of characters here and the ones that could survive it would likely get KO'd and only about a handful of people would survive and stay conscious from it and then we have to think how each of them could counter it, some could do it effectively some couldn't. Once again the problem isn't that someone like Cyborg could open a boomtube, the problem is him reacting to the gamma burst instantaneously, while also having that strategy in mind. We don't know the conditions of this thread in terms of knowledge which means they have either no or basic knowledge so i am not sure any of the characters are even aware they are instantly getting hit by gamma as soon as the fight starts.

The way this fight is done, there are several characters through various versatility or hax that can deal with 4 WBH's, particularly with enough knowledge and just a bit of prep, but the way the fight is done it's very much in favor of 4 WBH's, to the point where i don't know if anyone else except for CA could reliably deal with 4 WBH's under this exact scenario, possibly Wally given how fast he can react even without any knowledge and his phasing, although not entirely sure how he would deal with 4 WBH's, possibly speed steal but people have also brought some arguments against that so i am not 100% sure.

Well, we are either using High-End feats with speculation, which you are doing for Hulk, in which case i will use SUperman's 50x Kepler SUpernova from a red sun, or we are using legitimate feats with no speculation, in which case Hulk isn't actually anything more than a planetary threat, because his feats have never gone above planetary so far.

Gamma Bursts are lightspeed attacks, do you want a list of characters from the JLA roster that can easil react to lightspeed?

Tell me what high-end feats have i used for Hulk here? All i have used are literally the legitimate feats here. I haven't mentioned Hulk tanking universe busting attacks or punching through time, or shaking infinite dimensions or tanking an explosion amped nigh infinitely or lifting infinite matter, etc... So which exactly high-ends am i using here? Also Superman tanked the shockwave of the Keppler Supernova, he was actually about to be vaporized from the radiation of it

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WBH's feats are above planetary, we don't have to speculate about that, we can see it.

Sure if you want you can list them here Cyborg isn't one of them though, but there is a difference reacting to a lightpseed attack when you know what you are fighting and a difference between reacting to one as soon as a fight starts against unkown opponents, on top of that plenty of those who can react to it but still can't do anything about them other than just BFR themselves maybe.

Or just Wonder WOman can straight up block for the team as she did vs 5d beings. Or, vs Void Hound. IN fact, anyone surviving Void Hound's attack straight up no sells hulks gamma bursts.

ALso, how is he confirmed above planetary if the best feat for WBH is busting a planet? i am curious.

12 years on this forum and you still don't even know how to quote reply...

You confuse who goes all out if not to win. Why do it ? Why put in so much effort oh wait maybe is because even at normal levels he could not beat her so he had to turn it up. Still it made no difference.

Because several reasons.

1. Hulk was holding back his anger for a long time and was looking for valve to finally let it go, Greg Pak even talks about this in his interview

CA: Ha! Fin Fang Foom shooting nuclear missiles out of his mouth, no less!

GP: And Umar. Just love that character. I thought what Giffen, Dematteis and Maguire did with her in the Defenders: Indefensible mini was hilarious. And it was clearly time for the Worldbreaker to actually break a world.

https://comicsalliance.com/greg-pak-incredible-hulk-exit-interview/

2. Because he was finally happy and enjoying himself without having to worry about killing any innocent and those that would end up be killed he would just bring back

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3. Because he was fighting an equally powerful being and there was no reason for him to hold back, neither could defeat the other and both could literally smile off each others punches while the planet was getting broken around them and everyone else was getting vaporized.

Wbh not doing anything special that the league cannot handle. Let me make it simple for you.

Great i am gonna repeat the same question that Professorrespect asked you then and you haven't responded to

We gonna naeed Names and Citations from you tensor, back up your claims.

You guys have one argument of trying to win this battle we have many ways too.

So many arguments and yet you keep losing these debates, must be that quantity does not substitute for quality.

An in your one way we can deal with your Planet level blast even if you get it off in time. Hulk cannot stop the other ways we can win. It is that simple.

Go down the list of all the ways then, names and citations, stop just saying all these nebulous terms like "we have so many ways to win this" or "the league have dealt with so much stronger stuff", none of these claims prove anything, anyone can say this about anything, back it up with citations and names.

@underfire47: Already pointed out the many ways the league can win easy. All you yapping is your one point of explode.

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This is lockable, the JLA stomps with ridiculous ease. Anyone claiming otherwise is very delusional or just refuses to accept the truth.

Ne seri mnogo.

Haahaha, so funny, good that you remember where i am from, but i will keep to english for now. Fact is, there are members of the JLA in this lineup that can handle the Hulk 1v1, but, more importantly, there are many members in the lineup that can just teleport or otherwise move the Hulks to space and win via BFR.

Not that hard when you are the only person on here from the same place as me. Regular Hulk for sure, WBH, i am not sure how many can handle him, probably less than a handful, with 4 WBH's all amping each other up that becomes even more difficult to imagine. BFR is certainly possible if they react in time and manage to survive the gamma barrage for the first few seconds.

The best feat for Hulk's Gamma Barrage is planetary, Superman has survived a Supernova of a red sun, showering him in red sun radiation. Furthermore, Post Crisis Lanterns have feats of blocking radiation, and MOST IMPORTANTLY Captain Atom absorbs radiation and uses it as his own power. Add to that Post-Flashpoint Captain Atom powers, it's a stomp for the DC team. There's too much in the team, too many variables, too many complementary powers. if the fight had any form of fair numbers i could get behind your argument, but as it is, the Hulks stand no chance of challenging the JLA team in a ComicVine setup.

Planetary+, the operational word being survived, Superman has been knocked out by planetary level attacks many, MANY times before and way less than that i mean Superman has been consistently more knocked out by nukes than he has survived Supernovas so i don't even understand the argument unless you are trying to convince me nothing short of a Supernova can take him out. Not radiation on this level no. Yea i already mentioned CA could potentially solo this on his own. It's not really a stomp it depends mostly on the arguments, the problem with fighting WBH and multiple of that is as soon as the fight starts you are instantly bombarded with planetary++ gamma blasts, only a handful of characters in the JLA would even survive or stay conscious through that initially, most wouldn't even be able to react because they wouldn't' be prepared for it, especially now that gamma in Marvel has went through a revision where it's more hax than any simple radiation being partially magic and partially divine. Honestly removing just 1-2 characters from JLA and i would favor the WBH's for a majority.

Here's the thing, you want to argue that Superman's feats are "high-end" and you counter with lower-end feats, which makes sense, however, you yourself tend to be using the highest-end feat you can think of.

As far as the speed of reaction and surviving assaults, you are forgetting that, again, DC team has characters that can easily shield literally everyone. Seriously, too overstacked for fighting Hulk, who while powerful is too linear for this fight. He has superstats and planetary energy projection. That's laughable against this team. Heck, Cyborg could just open a boom tube in front of the team and the gamma blasts just go away.

Me saying Superman has been KO'd multiple times by planetary level feats is a low end for Superman? How powerful do you think Superman is? A Solar System level character? My only remark that using a supernova feat is very sketchy considering how many feats there are out there that counter it, way more consistently so. Now do i think Superman is a nuke level character because he got KO'd by nukes multiple times? Not at all, not even close... but that is still more consistent than his Solar System level feats so when someone goes to that extreme all i can do is counter with another extreme. So once again i have no idea why you brought up the supernova feat unless you think that's normal for Superman and nothing short of that can KO him so he can deal with 4 WBH's just fine.

Oh i am fully aware they can shield everyone, that wasn't my argument, my argument was if they would be prepared for it and react accordingly, because as soon as the fight starts, they are instantly getting bombarded by gamma bursts, now about at least 90% of the characters in this thread aren't even surviving a barrage of that from 4 WBH's. The problem with that thinking is it's too simplistic, yes Hulk is fairly linear here but the 1 thing he does he does it to a level where it excels, the gamma burst is quite deadly to the vast majority of characters here and the ones that could survive it would likely get KO'd and only about a handful of people would survive and stay conscious from it and then we have to think how each of them could counter it, some could do it effectively some couldn't. Once again the problem isn't that someone like Cyborg could open a boomtube, the problem is him reacting to the gamma burst instantaneously, while also having that strategy in mind. We don't know the conditions of this thread in terms of knowledge which means they have either no or basic knowledge so i am not sure any of the characters are even aware they are instantly getting hit by gamma as soon as the fight starts.

The way this fight is done, there are several characters through various versatility or hax that can deal with 4 WBH's, particularly with enough knowledge and just a bit of prep, but the way the fight is done it's very much in favor of 4 WBH's, to the point where i don't know if anyone else except for CA could reliably deal with 4 WBH's under this exact scenario, possibly Wally given how fast he can react even without any knowledge and his phasing, although not entirely sure how he would deal with 4 WBH's, possibly speed steal but people have also brought some arguments against that so i am not 100% sure.

Well, we are either using High-End feats with speculation, which you are doing for Hulk, in which case i will use SUperman's 50x Kepler SUpernova from a red sun, or we are using legitimate feats with no speculation, in which case Hulk isn't actually anything more than a planetary threat, because his feats have never gone above planetary so far.

Gamma Bursts are lightspeed attacks, do you want a list of characters from the JLA roster that can easil react to lightspeed?

Tell me what high-end feats have i used for Hulk here? All i have used are literally the legitimate feats here. I haven't mentioned Hulk tanking universe busting attacks or punching through time, or shaking infinite dimensions or tanking an explosion amped nigh infinitely or lifting infinite matter, etc... So which exactly high-ends am i using here? Also Superman tanked the shockwave of the Keppler Supernova, he was actually about to be vaporized from the radiation of it

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WBH's feats are above planetary, we don't have to speculate about that, we can see it.

Sure if you want you can list them here Cyborg isn't one of them though, but there is a difference reacting to a lightpseed attack when you know what you are fighting and a difference between reacting to one as soon as a fight starts against unkown opponents, on top of that plenty of those who can react to it but still can't do anything about them other than just BFR themselves maybe.

Or just Wonder WOman can straight up block for the team as she did vs 5d beings. Or, vs Void Hound. IN fact, anyone surviving Void Hound's attack straight up no sells hulks gamma bursts.

ALso, how is he confirmed above planetary if the best feat for WBH is busting a planet? i am curious.

First off do me the common decency and answer my first question, what high ends did i use for Hulk? So that you feel justified to use them for the League? Great, has Diana ever blocked an omnidirectional blast and saved 30+ of her teammates with it? How many times has she reacted to LS attacks without being aware of them?

I am not sure what the Void Hound feat is gonna do here, the Void Hounds attacks weren't planet busting(talking about single attacks, not the culmination of multiple attacks).

Because of the way the feat happened, people that like to lowbal the feat always mention it's a shared feat, but they forget that the epicenter of it, the impact itself was not directed at the planet but at the 2 Hulks themselves, what destroyed the planet and vaporized everyone else was the indirect damage of it.

Where? Citations? Names? You haven't backed up a single claim with any scan or citation yet. tensor you can't even write in comprehensive English, let alone make a coherent argument, I dunno or care what "point of explode" is, i want you to back up your claims with scans or citations, otherwise stop stinking up the threads with your irrelevant fanboyism and weird hate boner you have for the Hulk, there are other people that are actually worth debating on here.

@underfire47: Poor atheist cannot win so he thrash talk.

Justice league can win by BFR Hulk can do nothing about that

Flash can speed steal Hulk cannot do anything about that

Zatanna and Doctor Fate magic can easily defeat Hulk.

The list goes on pointless people point it out but yet you just annoyed an throwing a fit cause nobody is seeing your one way victory.

Athiest argument we will just all blow up at once an we win. The true nature of this battle an this debate is that the league can stop your best attack an counter an win or even stop you before the battle has begun in hulk mind.

Yet all you do is rant an rave because nobody is going to listen to your one way of victory an think that is all an we are superior in the outcome of this battle. Which you are not you just fail to accept defeat. That the league have more than one way to put down your favorite character.

Keep doing you and cry when your character lose in the battle forums

@underfire47: @professorrespect: @namelessmonster:

This isn't bait and I'm not an alt. I appreciate the concern though.

@tensor: Poor atheist cannot win so he thrash talk.

Tensor... you trashed talked me the same lol, don't be mad at me just because i am better at it, just how i am better at making arguments.

Justice league can win by BFR Hulk can do nothing about that

Who can BRF him and how? Just saying League can BFR is not an argument, because all i have to do is say Hulk can't be BFR and there is nothing the League can do about it, gotta make better arguments than that. And just so you know i know who exactly can BFR Hulk from the league but i am waiting for you to say it because i am not sure you do know.

Flash can speed steal Hulk cannot do anything about that

How will he speed steal him through his gamma burst?

Zatanna and Doctor Fate magic can easily defeat Hulk.

Of course, but what feats do Zatanna and Fate have of reacting to LS gamma burst that they don't even expect?

The list goes on pointless people point it out but yet you just annoyed an throwing a fit cause nobody is seeing your one way victory.

From the 30+ League members in this thread and the countless ways they can win as you said, you stopped after 3 and it were not even the good 3 arguments. Even i gave you 1 good argument several times in this thread how i think the League can win and you are too inept to even figure that one out yourself or copy it. tensor... you do realize i never even said WBH's can win this? What is my "one way of victory"? LOL

Yet all you do is rant an rave because nobody is going to listen to your one way of victory an think that is all an we are superior in the outcome of this battle. Which you are not you just fail to accept defeat. That the league have more than one way to put down your favorite character.

What is that "one way of victory" tensor? tensor you are so triggered right now you are literally inventing a boogeyman, i never said WBH's win this, i even acknowledged there are some on the League that can solo. See the problem is unlike you who has to make up a strawman out of others and invent stuff they never said like my "one way of victory" that doesn't exist in this thread i am just here to literally clown on people like you. Because despite the fact that i ultimately agree that the League wins the fun is bullying people like you who don't know their own head from their ass as you ltierally don't know what you are talking about. Once again the arguments and conversations are too complicated for you to follow, so you result to the default of thinking i am arguing for the 4 WBHs winning here lol.

Keep doing you and cry when your character lose in the battle forums

Why would i cry when my character loses in a battle forum? He loses all the time, he loses even in this thread, it's a position i held already, I even told you before that Superman beats Hulk a position i held for several years already that apparently blew your mind away. I think the person that legitimately cries on here is you whenever Hulk does win a thread, which is most WBH vs Superman threads, hell he won that WBH vs KC Superman battle of the week thread a couple of years ago that made people like you lose their minds over it lol.

I am still waiting on those scans and citations though.

@hulksmashtoaa: Sure....

Under these conditions the JLA team should prevail. Victory involves Wally giving FTL to Capt. Atom, Dr. Fate, or arguably Zatanna. I believe without the battle conditions as they are, JLA team would die as those with the utility to effect these hulks lack the speed or durability to live through the initial AoE, and those with the durability/speed to live past the first few seconds would quickly succumb soon after.

It reminds me of a boss fight in a party-based rpg

I agree. My point is, I don't understand why I see so many statements like, "oh, it's how the character is written consistently" that limits what they do on the battle forum threads? I mean, you're saying exactly what I think (bolded above), but is immediately contradicted by the italicized part of your comment above. I think we all agree writers are telling a story even if, as Underfire47 indicates, the elements of plot will always take precedence over how logically a character utilizes his power set. George Perez and Marv Wolfman both acknowledge that Wally's power logically used makes it nearly impossible for him to be beat. Why? Because less that what? 1%? Of other comic characters are as fast or faster. That is why they say it is difficult to write him in a book, especially a team book. So, when I see a comment like this:

Then I'm confused. To me, if even some writer's recognize that logically, a character like Wally when utilising his powers properly can't be touched (in so many words), why would Wally not utilizing speed steal often (in the context of a comic book) even be relevant under the context of being considered in battle forum conversations? If Marv Wolfman and George Perez recognize what we all call PIS, why wouldn't we also recognize that such limitations really have no place in battle forums? I agree, Wally doesn't consistently speed steal, but he's done it enough that everyone knows it's part of his power set. Wally has 3 pico second reaction feats, but that doesn't mean he uses it every other issue. But in light of comments from prolific writer's like Perez and Wolfman, shouldn't that impact the way we, who are not in the business of writing stories, evaluate what a character will do when using their powers to the best of their ability on battle threads? I disagree then, that Wally wouldn't utilize speed steal under this setting.

I agree completely with this statement.

He starts with a gamma burst? Isn't that just light speed at best?

Man I haven't read literally any of the stuff you're talking about. I will have to check out his fight against Doc Manhattan. But if he can fight evenly with Manhattan, wouldn't that put him way above anyone else on that list, including the 4 Hulks?

So, based on that wouldn't we dismiss his low showings with a grain of salt given, as you say, the inconsistencies appear to be related to different writers perspectives?

@fcvs111: We base character actions on consistency and contextual events, not on if they have it or if they don't. Wally doesn't randomly steal speed and has used it overwhelmingly as a defensive move, using it to help people out or stop damage from occurring.

@fcvs111:

He starts with a gamma burst? Isn't that just light speed at best?

Man I haven't read literally any of the stuff you're talking about. I will have to check out his fight against Doc Manhattan. But if he can fight evenly with Manhattan, wouldn't that put him way above anyone else on that list, including the 4 Hulks?

Yea, the problem is it's omnidirectional.

He actually got embarrassed by Manhattan the problem is he did manage to hurt him quite a bit, some people argue that Manhattan kinda let him do it, but i think you should read the instance yourself and come to your own conclusion on it.

The explanation for Superman's inconsistency appears to explained in the combining of his post Crisis and nu 52 continuities, as well as having been written by multiple writer's at the same time. Wouldn't we dismiss these as precisely what they are, inconsistencies?

A ton of his inconsistent stuff still comes AFTER pre-52 and new-52 self got merged, even recently he has been getting some low ends, so it's not simple the seperateion of pre-52 and new-52 it's mostly because there are a ton of different writers, writing him differently at the same time that have vastly different opinions on his power level, for instance Bendis who until recently wrote Supermans title series came out and said Superman can't planet bust which angered and confused a lot of people. Well yea we dismiss inconsistencies the problem is how much does something happen before it's no longer an inconsistency?

Hmm, my thought is because Superman is charged by our yellow sun, which includes gamma radiation, and because the scan from Superman Unchained shows he can even emit gamma in his heat vision, why would he be harmed by them? As far as gamma being retconned to be magical, in the context of a story, that would present an obvious problem for writers and apparently for us too. Do we erase Superman's ability to deal with gamma just fine in his own continuity, or do we say he is affected by it because Marvel retconned it in their continuity?1 minute ago

Yea but he doesn't specifically absorb the gamma radiation part, the gamma radiation doesn't amp him by itself. Also gamma vision doesn't mean he is now immune to gamma or it can't hurt him on the contrary he has been KO'd or hurt by regular nukes plenty of times, on top of that Hulk is literally a being made of gamma and there are plenty of time the gamma has hurt him. Well considering we are dealing with Hulks own gamma that comes from him, which is retconned to be magic, i think it's fair to assume it will affect him the way magic already does in DC because we aren't dealing with regular gamma, we are dealing with gamma which also gives Hulk some hax abilities like being unable to die and being able to open a green door to Hell itself.

And all of that is moot in light of the fact that even writer's recognize the difference between a character logically using their powers and being written within the context of a story. Battle forums are not a story. So, why aren't we making a distinction between plot induced events and battle forum discussions. "Using their powers to the best of their abilities" does not reconcile with plot of a given story.

Again, doesn't matter. He's demonstrated he has this ability enough times that there is no reason, logically, that he wouldn't use it as a tactic consistently outside the confines of a story.

It may be how some do things, sure. But I don't see that thinking reflected in the battle forum rules. The writers themselves, whose plots you are pushing as an absolute gauge of consistency, clearly note the difference between a character not using their powers because of plot and the character logically using their powers outside of stories. I've been lurking here for a while and been a part of a number of different battle boards, some now non-existent, for years. I don't think my "newness" has much at all to do with it. In fact, I believe that kind of thinking an excuse to dismiss away a lot of character's powers because it benefits the person arguing against its use in these discussions. Wally is far faster than most characters, including Hulk. How do we counter that? "...oh, because that is how he is consistently written..."

Again, there is no reason to assume, under the context of a battle forum fight, he wouldn't use speed steal. And he has used it offensively before.

He could've done it with Superman but avoided doing so for collateral.

Also stealing speed is manipulating kinetic energy which Wally West has done a bunch, including lending speed. The question becomes, outside of plot of a comic story, why wouldn't he use it in a fight like this that doesn't involve plot?

they dogpile hulk

@underfire47:

You didn't use any feats for Hulk just yet, but i knew you would reach straight into speculation, and you did. So my point was proven, but i assume you won't agree with that.

Second, you are using the word "omnidirectional" incorrectly. This isn't omnidirectional at all. It's an AoE wave attack. So you don't need a bubble to protect from it, you need to just have a shield in front of you.

Furthermore, that actually makes the gamma explosions less dangerous than planetary, as they spread, the force they relay weakens, you know, as the sphere expands, so, by the time it reaches the league, the attack is already weaker.

And yeah, DIana did exactly that. I am looking for the feat, but i can't remember the exact story, it's been years since i've "debated" Diana. Basically, she stepped in front of J'onn to protect him from an attack from 5d beings and she created a forcefield in front of them.

How many times has she reacted to LS attacks without being aware of them?

The world is literally exploding from green spheres of energy, they would all be aware. And she has reacted to MFTL attacks many, many, many times over her career.

I am not sure what the Void Hound feat is gonna do here, the Void Hounds attacks weren't planet busting(talking about single attacks, not the culmination of multiple attacks).

Void Hound blasts are definitely planet busting. Not only did Erdammeru destroy a star, it destroyed multiple planets at once. Feels right placing Void Hound very near Hulk's Gamma BUrsts.

Because of the way the feat happened, people that like to lowbal the feat always mention it's a shared feat, but they forget that the epicenter of it, the impact itself was not directed at the planet but at the 2 Hulks themselves, what destroyed the planet and vaporized everyone else was the indirect damage of it.

Hmmm, you are putting your feet in your mouth my man, if the bursts are omnidirectional, that, by definition, means that they aren't directed (even if we've already discussed the nature of the word omnidirectional). Gamma bursts are spherical and go outwards in all directions. Combined power of the gamma bursts with the impact of 2 Hulks destroyed the planet. The Gamma bursts are still cool, but you can't claim that the bursts themselves are above planetary.

Why are you even arguing here? You yourself agreed that the Hulks don't stand a chance given that The LEague Literally has a radiation vacuum character and multiple characters that can effortlessly BFR Hulk for a quick and easy victory.

Again, I don't see that in the battle forum rules. Those rules specifically mention making those types of distinctions in these types of discussions.

Once more, if writers like Marv Wolfman and George Perez can make that distinction then why don't we? It's ludicrous to think that a character, like Wally West, has demonstrated speed steal, speed lending and all sorts of kinetic based shenanigans, but can't use those powers in this context because, according to you, he doesn't use it consistently. Makes zero sense. I question the use of the word "consistency" as well. Should he use it every other issue? Once every four issues? Or should we just accept that he has used it more than enough times over the course of decades worth of continuity to assume he would use it under the premise of "no PIS", as the rules clearly indicate?

Additionally, if there is no such thing as PIS, and "we don't use that around here anymore", I venture to say, that means the use of a character's powers in the context of a battle forum setting is contingent on what the local experts like yourself say it should be. Rather than be told be anyone how I should think, I prefer to have actually read the comics in question, and draw my own conclusions, as the battle forum rules appear to indicate we all should. If we were talking about someone like, IDK...Firestorm? Then I might at my discretion give the nod to an argument like this one if for no other reason than, I really haven't read much with Firestorm in it. Seeing as I have read considerable amounts of Wally's continuity post Crisis, I'm comfortable with my assessment that under these settings, he will steal all four Hulk's speed before they can do anything. Wally has stolen speed, lent speed, used speed force wake, etc, enough times to clearly indicate he will definitely use it in this context.

And I would say "nice theory" to you as well, that given that Wally uses all sorts of kinetic speed force tricks over the years, he will use it here. It is more than consistent enough to indicate that it will be used.

Again, I here you saying "that's how it works...", but I don't see that anywhere in the rules. Can you point it out for me?

Therefore, Hulk won't be catching someone he won't even register as coming because Hulk is not a light speed character.

The fact that you acknowledge Wally has speed steal as a power is a clear indicator you believe he has that power. I've provided enough showings to indicate he will use it in this context therefore, I disagree for reasons already stated and again, I question the use of the word "consistently". How many times in your opinion should a character use something that is clearly in their arsenal to use in in this context? In essence, you are removing part of Wally West's powers. I don't agree with that at all.

I never said speed steal could be used lethally and it doesn't have to be used lethally. He just needs to steal these guys speed long enough to incapacitate them while the others BFR, or otherwise use their powers to defeat.

I have the impression that "doesn't use it consistently enough" is an excuse for some to say a character like Hulk who does not have speed on par with someone like Wally West might actually have a chance in this fight. He doesn't.

^^^^^^^

In other words..."You cant use that clear power that Wally has used multiple times because it would mean you'd win the debate"

I hope i will remember to steal this argument and save it for later use

@chimeroid: You didn't use any feats for Hulk just yet, but i knew you would reach straight into speculation, and you did. So my point was proven, but i assume you won't agree with that.

I am so confused right now... You said i used high end feats for Hulk in post #201

which you says justifies you using high ends of your own, but then now you say i haven't used any feats for Hulk but i would jump into some kind of speculation therefore proving your point???? What? None of this makes any sense...

Second, you are using the word "omnidirectional" incorrectly. This isn't omnidirectional at all. It's an AoE wave attack. So you don't need a bubble to protect from it, you need to just have a shield in front of you.

Not at all, the gamma is going omndirectionally from Hulk, not that the JL is getting bombarded by omnidirectional attacks as in attacks coming at them from every direction, they are coming at them from 1 direction but it's 1 wide direction basically, it's basically like a wall of gamma coming at them.

It's the same principal as describing an antenna that sends signals in all directions. I never said anyone needs a bubble to protect from it, i asked for a large enough shield she will have to protect 30+ people on her team.

Furthermore, that actually makes the gamma explosions less dangerous than planetary, as they spread, the force they relay weakens, you know, as the sphere expands, so, by the time it reaches the league, the attack is already weaker.

That depends entirely how far the league are from them, the characters that got vaporized by WBH/RSH gamma burst seemed to be fairly far away from them and we don't know how far away the JL is from the 4 Hulks here.

And yeah, DIana did exactly that. I am looking for the feat, but i can't remember the exact story, it's been years since i've "debated" Diana. Basically, she stepped in front of J'onn to protect him from an attack from 5d beings and she created a forcefield in front of them.

I think you mean JLA Heavens Ladder, but this barely even blocked the attack for her and J'onn

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Doesn't even look like a forcefield just her blocking with her bracers that she does all the time, unless you mean some other feat of course. Otherwise not sure how this is gonna save her and 30+ others.

The world is literally exploding from green spheres of energy, they would all be aware. And she has reacted to MFTL attacks many, many, many times over her career.

That depends how far they are from the 4 WBH's. I don't think Diana reacting to MFTL is consistent, nor that there are that many MFTL attacks she has reacted to. I mean she has that famous Shattered God feat but that feels like a massive outlier for her.

Void Hound blasts are definitely planet busting. Not only did Erdammeru destroy a star, it destroyed multiple planets at once. Feels right placing Void Hound very near Hulk's Gamma BUrsts.

No dude... We never get a time from for how long it took it to destroy a star, we know it destroyed 10 star systems even but we don't know how long that took either. When we see it in action it takes it just under 30 minutes with multiple attacks and through various chain reactions to destroy a single planet

Hell even when it came to Earth it started wrecking the various places on it's surface, it did not blow it up instantly.

So no it's not comparable to WBH, come on now...

The Void Hound had various attacks and none of them were planet busting and even then not all of them could be survived by League like the tesseract bomb that only Shazam could survive just barely.

The tesseract bombs only destroyed a region of a thousand miles which is roughly a region the size of Sweden.

Hmmm, you are putting your feet in your mouth my man, if the bursts are omnidirectional, that, by definition, means that they aren't directed (even if we've already discussed the nature of the word omnidirectional). Gamma bursts are spherical and go outwards in all directions. Combined power of the gamma bursts with the impact of 2 Hulks destroyed the planet. The Gamma bursts are still cool, but you can't claim that the bursts themselves are above planetary.

No it means exactly as it says, they go in every direction from Hulk. The gamma bursts released by the 2 Hulks clashing is what busted the planet and vaporized everyone, despite them not being directed at the planet itself or those other beings, that's why they are so dangerous, the 2 Hulks did all that indirectly as collateral.

Why are you even arguing here? You yourself agreed that the Hulks don't stand a chance given that The LEague Literally has a radiation vacuum character and multiple characters that can effortlessly BFR Hulk for a quick and easy victory.

I don't get this question, do you only argue threads where the character/s you are arguing for have to win? I agree that the JL can win i don't necessarily agree to all the methods. Like if you and me argued in another thread for lets say Indestructible Hulk vs Superman and you said Superman wins and i would agree but then you say he wins via freeze breath, then i would disagree and argue against that, because i don't believe he can win that way. I argue for the sake of the arguments, not based on who wins what thread.

You'd think with someone like MM with TP that the team has pretty good advantage.

.....good luck trying to get into a raging Hulk with TP while having a bunch of chaos going on around you.

Lovely joke D4B, but alas, no. Wally has been in life threatening situations before and never even thought to use speed stealing, so thinking he does so here is applying your own logic to a character and ignoring their consistency in usage. You should really tag me next time if you wanna try to argue comic characters, naturally you would get washed in that regard.

@futureisbest: That's one good point people haven't brought up, i guess it depends really, MMH has some of the best TP feats but Hulk also has some of the best feats of resisting TP, so it's a hard sell.

Oh and yea this is the angriest Hulk has been and his TP resistance scales with his anger.

To say allllll this....

• Absorbs the speed of multiple speedsters to fight Hunter Zolomon
• While connected to the Speed Force like never before, puts Inertia in a state where it takes a century for him to blink, but his consciousness is still in real time
• Absorbing the kinetic energy of the stress the stronger heroes were putting on Earth
• Speed-steals from Cheetah with a kiss
• Can speed steal from metabolisms, slowing bleeding
• Steals the speed of Amazo while on the verge of unconsciousness
• Steals the speed of Jay Garrick and gives it to Captain Cold and Mirror Master
  • This damages their insides
• Steals the velocity of a bunch of bullets
• Steals some of the velocity from a Guillotine
• Steals the momentum of Girder
• Could've stolen all of Superman's kinetic energy, who was moving at over two thousand miles a second, and stop him cold, but it would wreck havoc
• Stealing the speed from debris caught in a twister
• Makes cakes fall like a feather
• Speed Steals from Lady Flash

Is soooooo inconsistent that he’d at no point in this battle use speed steal doesnt seem like it tracks with his shown abilities.. this doesn’t seem to be a one off thing, but something he can do, and probably will do at some point if it’s his only win condition.. it is not.

Like seriously if he’s using speed steal on cakes to keep them from smooshing, then it’s something he can do rather casually and in non life threatening situations...imo

@professorrespect:

Ye I pulled the scans from a RT.. but I also own all the WWH comics, and have read a lot of post crisis..

You said it was inconsistent, but then what I showed too many scans of him using speed steal at once?

It’s not inconsistent he’s used it dozens of times, and he even uses it for cakes.. cakes for goodness sake.. there is no reason he wouldn’t use it in this battle.

• Makes cakes fall like a feather

@superprimetime: Orion would be fine, the issue is most of his appearances he doesn’t use the astroforce him using it and him not using it are completely different levels in power. In one comic one slap from him knocked out Superman and he had to reduce his power output from the astroforce so not to destroy apokolips. Even New 52 Orion accidentally destroyed a star just from the shockwaves from his battle against the nth metal golems, nth metal is the second strongest metal in DC and goes by many names like Amazonium which makes wonder woman’s gear except it’s enchanted. His equipment like the motherbox which can passively give him resistances time radiation and even absorb it if he commands, while passively healing him, combined with his insane durability is why I would say he can take on a hulk by himself. The oblivion bomb couldn’t take out Orion using the astroforce so Hulk definitely won’t.

Still not sure. I am pretty sure he has fought Superman physically way more times to a standstill than he has slapped him into submission. His battle with the Golem was a shared feat though and even Orion wasn't aware of it happening and had to actually run away from the explosion. That's cool but i mean Hulk has broken adamantium... and i do mean primary adamantium and it's the strongest metal in Marvel. I am still not convinced Orion can take out 1 WBH tbh, Orion has be taken by way less then the oblivion bomb though, i mean tanking a bomb that can destroy a universe... that's like me bringing up Hulk tanking a universe busting attack before as well or tanking a bomb that was amped nigh-infinitely. Let's not go into outliers.

Captain Atom is perfectly fine, doesn’t even need that much of an explanation. At best he gets BFR’d as too much energy gets turned into quantum energy and he gets time displaced again at best. What’s most likely going to happen is he absorbs all the energy then drains hulk further while engaging 1 by himself, once that one falls and he takes its power the others losing are inevitable.

I didn't argue against CA.

Firestorm isn’t affected by gamma radiation as its radiation found in nuclear explosions so he will likely just start absorbing the radiation the moment it happens.

Hulks radiation isn't normal radiation though, it's part magic and part divine.

Superman would literally see the gamma rays as he sees all light spectrums, literally follows Lex luthors phone signals to find him on occasion. And could just tell martian Manhunter to become intangible. Supes himself should be fine he’s tanked if he’s prepared for the attack, either by blocking or burying himself in the ground temporarily.

I dunno what seeing the gamma waves is gonna do to help him. He definitely wont be tanking them given that he has been KO'd by way less many times over, just recently he has been put into a coma from a nuke that can sink the east coast. Also i have no idea what burrying himself into the ground is suppose to do? The gamma bursts obliterated an entire planet, the ground is not gonna help him.

Lanterns are passively immune to all forms or radiation so gamma rays wouldn’t do anything to begin with. They literally fly through cosmic rays which have gamma radiation in them.

Immune to radiation, but not radiation explosions also this is not normal radiation. Did they ever fly through cosmic rays that obliterated a planet? We are talking about completely different levels of radiation here.

Barry and Wally will both be fine, the speedforce protects them from external forces and energies as they run (running fast enough). Barry has an ability that Wally doesn’t have, that being the speed mind which allows him to estimate and see all possibilities and react to the most likely scenario that will occur. Wally if he sees this as a threat that can kill his family or kids would basically do immeasurable speed feats like he did in flash forward.

Did it protect them from planet busting attacks? I dunno if Barry can find a scenario out of this though, how come he didn't figure out a scenario that stops him from getting slapped by Damage?

Also Id like to see these drain resistance feats, you probably mean he’s not reverting back but he is getting drained which won’t matter as it will still amp Captain Atom.

It depends on the scenario, sometimes he gets drained a little before they can't drain him anymore.

Hulk has resisted draining from LoebForce Rulk

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and Rulk was particularly infamous for draining beings like Odin Force Thor, Watcher, Surfer, etc... which Rulk confirms with his own words here

Hulk has also resisted being drained by Darwin

Darwin being the same guy that drained Hela of her powers

Gallery

Hulk has recently resisted getting drained by Rogue as well

Rogue is notorious for draining pretty much every Marvel hero at least once at some point but most notably she has literally drained Zarathos from Ghost Rider himself

On top of that Hulk has resisted being drained by the Elder Spikes for 7 straight hours

Gallery

for reference the Spikes drain entire planets of life and even feed on dying stars

Another instance is a Kree space ship that was capable of draining Surfer, Strange and Namor of their powers

Gallery

fails to drain the Hulk who resists and breaks the whole spacecraft from the backlash

Main issues are Orion, Wally, Captain atom, Firestorm and captain atom.

Are there 2 Captain Atoms here? I am not entirely convinced by Orion and Firestorm tbh, my main concern with Orion is i saw him duke it out with Superman far too many times and some other not too flattering feats but i guess i can be convinced by his Astro force and mother box if he opts for them rather than trying to fight WBH physically. CA i can agree too and Wally i can be convinced from what i know.

WWH isn't in this thread... just saying lol.

But he has done it in life threatening situations and in non life threatening situations and he’ll even do it to prevent cakes from hitting the ground.

Im sure you can go on and on, hes not gonna do it on every page, but he’s done it a lot.. a whole lot.. both in battle and out of battle.

You saying that it shouldn’t be considered in this battle is kinda silly after all these showings.

Biggest battles?.. so he’s done it in battles just not the ones you wanted him too, got it.

Ive already said that I’ve read a lot of post crisis, you don’t know what your talking about.. and ye when you call something inconsistent you can expect someone to come back with lots of feats.. I didn’t spam scans, I showed a dozen links to Wally doing exactly what people are saying he will do here.... to prove that he’s used this ability in lots of situations from life threatening battle to keeping cakes from hitting the floor.

You don’t just get to pick and choose what abilities these characters have and you definitely can’t call something a character has done dozens of time in a out of battle inconsistent without some push back.

• Steals the speed of Amazo while on the verge of unconsciousness

I guess this wasn’t a life or death situation huh?

facts.

hes done it in life or death situations.

hes done it multiple times in battle.

hes done it casually outside of battle.

——

Speed Steal should definitely be considered in this battle, it’s not inconsistent, and just saying ”hes never done it in a life or death situation“ when people have clearly showed you he has is silly.

So has done it in a life or death situation, like you said he never had?? Got it.

hes used it in life or death situations.

hes used it I n regular battles dozens of times.

and he’s used it outside of battles.

/-/

oh ye your right it shouldn’t be considered at all.. lmao.